Macbook without MacOsX possible ?

[rogersmj]

Here's what I don't understand about this (and why I can't believe it took until the middle of page 2 before someone actually said something intelligent and brought this up):

As mentioned, Macs use EFI. Windows XP (and even Vista) do not support EFI (Vista was supposed to, but it was removed back in beta). Do none of you remember the $12,000 contest or whatever it was, back when the Intel iMacs first shipped in early 2006, to get Windows XP to boot on a Mac? It was a huge problem because the Macs have no BIOS, only EFI. The problem was solved just weeks before Boot Camp was first released by Apple.

There's a lot of crap being flung around this thread by people who have never tried this, but are talking like they are the ultimate authority on the matter. I know I saw someone say they actually did this, and I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the fact that it took a bunch of hackers weeks and weeks to do this before the existence of Boot Camp -- even though they were motivated by thousands of dollars -- makes me think he's full of it. If something has changed between early 2006 and now, I'd love to know what it is though. But from what I've seen, though, this should not be possible without Boot Camp. Boot Camp is not just a partitioning tool and drivers -- it simulates BIOS for Windows.

So in short, let's figure this out together, and everyone spouting off just shut the hell up unless you can offer a real contribution in a calm constructive manner. I agree OS X is better than Windows, but set that aside and try to actually address the point of the thread.

 

[taylorwilsdon]

Like I said, I have installed XP and removed OSX without any troubles. First time was accidental, but it worked nonetheless.

I don't think you can run bootcamp without an os, if you remove macos, you would need to install something to control the contraption.

I say we petition for the following traitors to be banned. I don't want them here and neither should you:

whateverandever
sycho
mgsolidsnak3
TBi
izibo

I said that signup date doesn't matter, but this does. You joined this month! Who are you to say that someone should be banned.

For everyone who is arguing that its impossible, why don't you go and try it?

 

[polevault139]

Well I am no expert on this but I think everyone needs to take a deepth breath.

Okay, now that thats over and we can stop the childish name calling lets anwer the mans question.

I am going to have to say no, on the basis that macs dont use BIOS.

Here is another thread in another forum that I found in a google search that came to the same conclusion as some of us without all of the bickering.

http://www.123macmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10932

Hope this helps.

 

[polevault139]

Here is the contest mrogers was tlaking about with the procedures to dual boot before there was bootcamp.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060316-6393.html

 

[bigandy]

Firstly, Macs use EFI, not BIOS, meaning that they can't directly boot Windows - which is where Bootcamp comes in.

One version of LILO can handle EFI, but GRUB won't.. But that's if you want to go the annoying, could-be-simpler, bootloader way.

The easiest thing to do is install Bootcamp, then Windows, then clear off the MacOS partition using Partition Magic or similar. Don't remove the EFI volume (200mb or so) - it's important.

When you want MacOS back you can just repartition the drive using the MacOS Installer DVD's copy of Disk Utility.

 

[TBi]

mrogers... i know i'm not the first person to post this but...

Apple updated the EFI firmware to include bios emulation. This has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with bootcamp.

After apple updated the EFI firmware to include bios emulation they released a driver and drive partitioning package to make it easier to use windows after it was installed.

So to recap... all intel mac's have a BIOS. All the original intel macs have an update to install a bios. If you don't have this bios you cannot use bootcamp.

 

[rogersmj]

TBi...thank you, that helps explain a lot! If you have any idea where I can find some official docs from Apple about that I'd appreciate it. I assume the first EFI+BIOS firmware update was issued at the same time BootCamp was first released?

 

[maccam]

Do not buy a macbook for just windows, THAT WOULD BE DUMB!!!
you would still get viruses.
and you know what MOVE TO MAC OSX!!!

And no one should be banned!

 

[TBi]

This took me ages to find.

These firmware updates came out for all intel macs when bootcamp was released. Note how it says you need this update to use bootcamp? That's because the updated firmware had a bios in it.

Oh and i know the apple internal page for the upgrade is gone. Probably because now it would be a straight update to the latest firmware.

Also, why would apple tell people to use the latest firmware in bootcamp if it didn't do anything?

 

[failsafe1]

Just did a quick check on the Circuit City web site. I realize you are overseas so bear with me. The CC web site has notebooks as low as $450. I am sure you can find a cheaper deal (or cheaper Dell) if you shop around. If you want a Macbook you certainly can get XP and now Vista on it.I would venture a guess that once you try the nice Apple software that comes with your book you may really enjoy the experience. If you have tried it and don't like it then don't waste the Macbook. I agree with the other posters about keeping OSX on your book and using XP.

 

[TBi]

Just did a quick check on the Circuit City web site. I realize you are overseas so bear with me. The CC web site has notebooks as low as $450. I am sure you can find a cheaper deal (or cheaper Dell) if you shop around. If you want a Macbook you certainly can get XP and now Vista on it.I would venture a guess that once you try the nice Apple software that comes with your book you may really enjoy the experience. If you have tried it and don't like it then don't waste the Macbook. I agree with the other posters about keeping OSX on your book and using XP.

Are they 13" or smaller? Or massive 15"?

 

[failsafe1]

Are they 13" or smaller? Or massive 15"?

The CC notebooks were 15 inch. Best Buy has some 14.1 notebooks for $450 to $600 so they can be had. The $450 is in store only. Dell is selling a 14.1 for $699

 

[emac82]

The CC notebooks were 15 inch. Best Buy has some 14.1 notebooks for $450 to $600 so they can be had. The $450 is in store only. Dell is selling a 14.1 for $699

The OP wants a thin 13" or smaller laptop.

 

[rogersmj]

This took me ages to find.

These firmware updates came out for all intel macs when bootcamp was released. Note how it says you need this update to use bootcamp? That's because the updated firmware had a bios in it.

Oh and i know the apple internal page for the upgrade is gone. Probably because now it would be a straight update to the latest firmware.

Also, why would apple tell people to use the latest firmware in bootcamp if it didn't do anything?

You can drop the attitude and things would be a lot nicer.

What I had understood before -- and why I didn't know about the BIOS in the firmware -- was that BootCamp actually installed something into the EFI system that simulated a BIOS. I assumed that the updated firmware provided a hook into the EFI system that allowed that to happen. Although I was mistaken, it's not completely unreasonable, and I couldn't find any Apple docs explaining it. So stop being a dick.

 

[failsafe1]

The OP wants a thin 13" or smaller laptop.

I missed the size requirement in the op. Thanks. For the price and ease of use perhaps the 1.1 inch would not be a problem?

 

[whateverandever]

Why don't you brilliant people try sticking a Windows XP install CD into your Intel Mac, hold down alt at boot, and see if you can start the installer without Boot Camp installed.

Honestly, this forum is filled with people that don't know jack about Macs. It amazes me how quickly they'll send give their unsubstantiated guess as factual information.

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showforum=63
http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showforum=43

Two forums that will actually give intelligent information when you're looking for a dual-boot solution for Windows/Unix on your mac.

Honestly, I think Mac OS is fantastic most of the time (other than darn Flash apps stealing my resources) and wouldn't ditch it, but if there was a decent trackpad driver for two-finger scrolling / right click in Linux I'd seriously consider hopping onto one of the linux distros.

 

[danny_w]

The Dell D420 can be had for somewhere around what you are looking for, and it is a 12.1" ultraportable that gets pretty good reviews. I thought about getting one myself.

 

[RojoLeo]

I don't have the slightest clue if you can do this or not, but since you were talking price point, if this is not possible, consider a Sony Vaio VGN-C290. It's a C2D, and depending on which features you choose, comes in under ₤700uk.

 

[TBi]

You can drop the attitude and things would be a lot nicer.

What I had understood before -- and why I didn't know about the BIOS in the firmware -- was that BootCamp actually installed something into the EFI system that simulated a BIOS. I assumed that the updated firmware provided a hook into the EFI system that allowed that to happen. Although I was mistaken, it's not completely unreasonable, and I couldn't find any Apple docs explaining it. So stop being a dick.

What attitude? The "Here are the facts that i actually researched attitude" or the one all you have which is "OMG bootcamp is more than just drivers but i can't substantiate it" attitude?

 

[hopejr]

I still think there's some misunderstanding about this EFI/BIOS firmware combo. Yes, Macs use EFI, but does anyone actually know what EFI stands for? It's Extensible Firmware Interface. It's a system used to interface the Boot loader with a computer's firmware, developed by Intel starting in 1998 (http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/). Windows does not support EFI, as stated here, but, soon before bootcamp came out, Apple released an extension to EFI, that supports BIOS calls that an OS would make. This was packaged in a firmware update. As a result, any system, be it an OS, or something else, that requires the firmware to process and respond to BIOS calls can run on a Mac. This then indicates to me that, although it isn't a popular idea on these forums (especially to me), that Windows/Linux/any other BIOS-based OS can boot on a Mac without the need for OS X to be installed.

The point that the 200MB partition at the beginning of the drive should be preserved, from what I know, is correct. I understand that the EFI extensions are installed here. However, that said, I also understand that the BIOS extension is not installed there, but in the firmware, otherwise there would have been no need for a full firmware update, but more software installation onto that partition (it would use the bless command). If this is the case, then that would explain why people have successfully fully formatted the whole hard drive as NTFS and could still boot.

EDIT: hmm, I just came across this thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/292372/
The person deleted their EFI partition and now has problems...

 

[aaronw1986]

Just go buy a Dell. If you don't want Mac OS X, not point to buying an Apple product. Dell will probably be cheaper for you.

 

[RojoLeo]

Just go buy a Dell. If you don't want Mac OS X, not point to buying an Apple product. Dell will probably be cheaper for you.

To the best of my knowledge, Dell doesn't make a laptop with a screen smaller than 14" right now.

 

[izibo]

Why don't you brilliant people try sticking a Windows XP install CD into your Intel Mac, hold down alt at boot, and see if you can start the installer without Boot Camp installed.

You absolutely CAN do this. The problem is that you wont have made the bootcamp driver CD so the MacBook will be without any specific drivers in Windows. This is the only reason why I included the installation of bootcamp in my original directions (to burn the driver CD).

 

[rogersmj]

To the best of my knowledge, Dell doesn't make a laptop with a screen smaller than 14" right now.

Try this one. They've had 12" laptops for years. Before that they had the 710m and 700m, which I owned. The 700m was probably one of the most -- if not the most -- popular laptop on my college campus.

 

[whateverandever]

You absolutely CAN do this. The problem is that you wont have made the bootcamp driver CD so the MacBook will be without any specific drivers in Windows. This is the only reason why I included the installation of bootcamp in my original directions (to burn the driver CD).

Yeah, it's probably a good idea to burn the drivers CD first, haha. I was just pointing out that you don't need Boot Camp to run Windows. Honestly, the only reason I wanted the Boot Camp drivers was for the scrolling and right click (that in Boot Camp 1.1, at least, was quite buggy and unpleasant).