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jef> Offended? No. Nauseated? Slightly. ;) I grew up in some serious redneck country myself but I never encountered anything like that.

See, we have this problem in America. We have this totally bizarre standard of manhood that is really nearly unprecedented in history. If questioned, people will assume that it goes back to the rugged frontier cowboy days where life was harsh and men were men and so forth. But it didn't. This image of men harkens less to cowboy days than it does to cowboy movies. Really, it goes back to the first part of the 20th century, when we had a couple of really nasty wars, saw Communists everywhere, weathered the Great Depression, and in the process developed this sensibility that men should be largely unrefined. Conscientious men almost universally had more important things to do than attend to such fluffy things as aesthetics and how they felt about things, and men who didn't eschew these supposedly frivolous notions were viewed with suspicion.

I think the stereotype of the foppish, flamboyant homosexual male (and for that matter, the butch lesbian) come not from some any direct link between those two desires, but from a convergence. Gay people are already violating some far more serious taboos, so there's really no reason for them to bother with molding themselves to nonsensically restrictive gender roles otherwise.

Even though the conditions which led to these attitudes are long gone, the attitudes themselves have propagated on into the present day because fear of social rejection keeps people in line. When social rejection is a given (as it is among gay people as well as certain other groups), one is liberated to do pretty much as one pleases.

Regardless, this is why something that is designed to be attractive instead of, or in addition to, being starkly functional just automatically sends up the "gay" flag in many Americans' brains, or how, say, sensible shoes on a woman automatically mean "lesbian" to some people.

Personally I think the whole thing is stupid and I wish it would just stop, but then I wish the Israelis and Palestinians would stop their bickering too, and you see how much good my wishes are.
 
Apple Colors

Dont forget guys, Apple was one of the first to use the translucent, multi-color scheme with their products that caught on so well in the late-mid nineties. (I use 'one of the first' because I think someone else came up with it, but Apple made it popular)

Anyway, I despise the look of the older iMacs, and think the colors are hideous---in hindsight. However, Apple was just being their revolutionary selves, and when they released their first iMac, it was the most beautiful, fresh, new thing for home computers, who had been grey for far too long.

Now, of course, the new Apple look has a much more appealing, sexy/professional look which is taken far more seriously. I love my TiBook, and when other people see it, they still gaze in awe over how thin, and professional it looks. Im sure other people certainly thought the old iBooks were feminine, but the current one's are not only uni-sex, but sexy as well.

To give an example, the TiBook is used in countless television shows like UC:Undercover, CSI, etc, which are not fluffy, tangerine-friendly shows. Their computers are supposed to be above the technology of the day. I cant even count how many commercials I have seen the TiBook on, yet none of them are for Valley Girls, or teenie boppers.

I think Apple has hit a home run with their new style, and I only hope it gets nothing but better from here.
 
Originally posted by Gelfin
jef> Offended? No. Nauseated? Slightly. ;) I grew up in some serious redneck country myself but I never encountered anything like that.

See, we have this problem in America. We have this totally bizarre standard of manhood that is really nearly unprecedented in history. If questioned, people will assume that it goes back to the rugged frontier cowboy days where life was harsh and men were men and so forth. But it didn't. This image of men harkens less to cowboy days than it does to cowboy movies. Really, it goes back to the first part of the 20th century, when we had a couple of really nasty wars, saw Communists everywhere, weathered the Great Depression, and in the process developed this sensibility that men should be largely unrefined. Conscientious men almost universally had more important things to do than attend to such fluffy things as aesthetics and how they felt about things, and men who didn't eschew these supposedly frivolous notions were viewed with suspicion.

I think the stereotype of the foppish, flamboyant homosexual male (and for that matter, the butch lesbian) come not from some any direct link between those two desires, but from a convergence. Gay people are already violating some far more serious taboos, so there's really no reason for them to bother with molding themselves to nonsensically restrictive gender roles otherwise.

Even though the conditions which led to these attitudes are long gone, the attitudes themselves have propagated on into the present day because fear of social rejection keeps people in line. When social rejection is a given (as it is among gay people as well as certain other groups), one is liberated to do pretty much as one pleases.

Regardless, this is why something that is designed to be attractive instead of, or in addition to, being starkly functional just automatically sends up the "gay" flag in many Americans' brains, or how, say, sensible shoes on a woman automatically mean "lesbian" to some people.

Personally I think the whole thing is stupid and I wish it would just stop, but then I wish the Israelis and Palestinians would stop their bickering too, and you see how much good my wishes are.

this statement is going to get me flamed both ways, especially since i am very religious

no one is born gay...we are all born bi-sexual with tendencies one way or the other or right in between...this is not a hunch but one of the most accepted theories in western medicine and psychology

i know some people think they are 100 percent straight...no such animal

i know some people think they didn't choose a gay lifestyle...life is full of choices and there are many gay and straight people of both sexes that choose a life of celibacy

this is both a western and eastern philosophy that goes back before recorded history whether is it waitng for the right man or holding in the chi/ki energy for physical exertion or mental exertion the next day

many olympians will refrain from sexual contact for a few days before an event knowing it may increse their physical or mental agility

one of the most promiscous times in college football is when a visiting top ten national team goes to hawaii with all those beautifully tan girls and more times than is necessary, a top 10 national team gets beat by a lowly ranked hawaiin football team
 
homosexuality

Saying that homosexuality is genetic is like saying:

The ability to draw is genetic
Liking brunettes is genetic
Being a great chess player is genetic
Being a great basketball player is genetic
Being a murderer is genetic
Liking Apple computer is genetic

Point is, some people are born with strong bodies, and some people are born with strong minds. (And more times than not, most people are born with neither.) But people are presented with choices in life, and depending on their past, their childhood, and preferences that they DEVELOP along the way, they will choose to be straight or gay.

And dont argue that children of alcoholics/child abusers/cleptomaniacs/drug abusers end up like their parents because of genetics. It has a LOT more to do with learned behavior.

But Hatfield is right. No one is 'born' gay. You do have a choice.
 
and that is simply psych 101 from high school

but if a gay gene is isolated, then i stand corrected

or if an artist gene is found, then i will be wrong but surprised to say the least

to say everything is 50 percent nature and 50 percent nurture is baloney

it is mostly nurture

genetics determine things like hair color, cholesterol tendencies, wieght tendencies, alcoholism tendencies, height (mostly), and a whole lot of other things

if there was a gay gene, then how does that explain people who went one way then another...are they confused? i don't think so

people choose different lifestyles but it is not our place to condemn them

i use a mac, vote democratic, like the 49ers, suck at baseball but like watching it, am very religious, would go back to the war in belfast as a missionary in a hearbeat, like to go to school forever, enjoy the wwf if the rock is there, like independent foreign movies, like engineering journals, etc and that makes me different from anybody here and most of those things that make me me is by choice

at most, i think, as a guess, that genetics is 45 percent and enviromnment is 55 percent, but i may be way wrong and when we really find the answer to the genetic question, it will probably be centuries from now since we are only just starting to usderstand these things
 
Re: iGAV

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
You caught me...:eek:

I'm a closet Flower Power owner...but this is my "Coming Out" party...

...sigh...

like the instructor told me in tech school, it's what is under the hood

i would like for once, as an experiment, to take the guts out of a dual 1 ghz g4 and stick it into an old 486 tower and show it to my ignorant pc friends and tell them it was all in the ddr ram upgrade from radio shack for $19.99 :p
 
Re: Re: iGAV

Originally posted by jefhatfield


like the instructor told me in tech school, it's what is under the hood

i would like for once, as an experiment, to take the guts out of a dual 1 ghz g4 and stick it into an old 486 tower and show it to my ignorant pc friends and tell them it was all in the ddr ram upgrade from radio shack for $19.99 :p

Oh my...that would be priceless...justifiable revenge for the people who strip the Mac parts out of G3/G4 towers and put their Wintel boxes in...shameless...
 
Re: Re: Re: iGAV

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Oh my...that would be priceless...justifiable revenge for the people who strip the Mac parts out of G3/G4 towers and put their Wintel boxes in...shameless...

the only problem is that i can't afford such a prank

i heard of one person turning their original 80's mac into an aquarium...seriously, using epoxy and stuff

now i can afford that since old macs go for fifty bucks in the paper sometimes...heck, the fish cost more:p
 
Re: homosexuality

Originally posted by agreenster
But Hatfield is right. No one is 'born' gay. You do have a choice.

Absolutely incorrect. See: research done on the inner ear structure of lesbians. Brain patterns are different. Thankfully, there's no rush to find the "gay gene" because even though that would be proof, it would lead to "selective birthing" (abort the queers). While I do believe the genetic predisposition can be influenced by upbringing, I think there is a basic orientation at birth. Saying that people have a choice is irresponsible, because that's what has lead countless people and groups against homosexuals. Even through years of subversion during the formitive stages, if there was any sort of choice, there wouldn't be nearly as many gay people. I went through years of denial and tried to make myself straight, and it certainly didn't accomplish anything but self-hated. Look at aversion therapy, the kind that's supposed to make us "deviants" normal... The only ones it works for, about 1% of those who endure it, develop severe emotional and mental problems later in life, and many wind up choosing suicide.

Do some research into families with lots of gay people in them. You'll see patterns. Not many people in my maternal family were gay, until my great-grandfather came into the mix, then he had two gay children, that generation had one or two, and now my generation is flooded with them. There's obvious trends as people add their genetic makeup to a family tree, whether it be less or more gay people in any given generation. And before you get going with how accepting a family is, it holds through with adopted people, a lot of research has been done on how male twins develop when seperated - More than 50% of the time, when one twin is gay, the other will be as well.

Please don't look at this as flaming, but understand the facts before you share such an opinion. If you think there's a choice involved, try being gay for a month, a week, or even a day. I know literally hundreds of gay people that would be straight, if there was any possible way to do it. No one wants this, trust me... The nature vs. nurture arguement is an old one, but even if you believe nurture, it cannot be considered a choice...

:)
pnw

And don't even dare say alcoholism isn't genetic, because on THIS issue there is scientific proof... I can count back 5 generations of alcoholics easily, the only reason I escaped it is I have an allergy to alcohol... it's another of those things that's been studied extensively through adoption, as well as medically...
 
Nature vs Nurture

I've actually heard some interesting theories lately that scientists are moving towards the hypothesis that it's actually Nature AND Nurture working in harmony to create the end result of presonality/sexual preference/etc.

I mean you can look at the studies of identical twins who when raised separately developed starkly contrasting personalities...or those who turned out exactly the same...

I don't think genetics and upbringing are mutually exclusive, but rather working in concert with each other.


Interesting examples pnw...do you think that possibly the precedent of your great-grandfather paved the way for other people in your family to be more open to "alternative" lifestyles...in addition to some possible genetic influences?
 
Originally posted by Gelfin
Even though the conditions which led to these attitudes are long gone, the attitudes themselves have propagated on into the present day because fear of social rejection keeps people in line. When social rejection is a given (as it is among gay people as well as certain other groups), one is liberated to do pretty much as one pleases.

I totally agree with your entire post, and in the above paragraph you've summed up my theory on why so many gay people are such horrendous sluts. Throw out a couple of the more antequated morals (homophobia), and the rest (monogamy and marriage) go with 'em...

Now i'll get flamed by the gay people :) lol... I'm not saying all gay people are sluts, mind you, or that straight people aren't just as bad sometimes, but straight people are expected to find a mate and marry, the "american dream" thing, while many gay people go their entire lives with the whole college-orgy-party attitude... *sigh* i try and challenge my gay brothers to take responsibility for themselves and i'm called self-hating...

okay i should really let this thread rest, 'cause this is macrumors, not discuss-the-merits-and-demerits-of-alternative-lifestyles.com hehe sorry bout that...
:)
pnw
 
Re: Re: homosexuality

Originally posted by paulwhannel


Absolutely incorrect. See: research done on the inner ear structure of lesbians. Brain patterns are different. Thankfully, there's no rush to find the "gay gene" because even though that would be proof, it would lead to "selective birthing" (abort the queers). While I do believe the genetic predisposition can be influenced by upbringing, I think there is a basic orientation at birth. Saying that people have a choice is irresponsible, because that's what has lead countless people and groups against homosexuals. Even through years of subversion during the formitive stages, if there was any sort of choice, there wouldn't be nearly as many gay people. I went through years of denial and tried to make myself straight, and it certainly didn't accomplish anything but self-hated. Look at aversion therapy, the kind that's supposed to make us "deviants" normal... The only ones it works for, about 1% of those who endure it, develop severe emotional and mental problems later in life, and many wind up choosing suicide.

Do some research into families with lots of gay people in them. You'll see patterns. Not many people in my maternal family were gay, until my great-grandfather came into the mix, then he had two gay children, that generation had one or two, and now my generation is flooded with them. There's obvious trends as people add their genetic makeup to a family tree, whether it be less or more gay people in any given generation. And before you get going with how accepting a family is, it holds through with adopted people, a lot of research has been done on how male twins develop when seperated - More than 50% of the time, when one twin is gay, the other will be as well.

Please don't look at this as flaming, but understand the facts before you share such an opinion. If you think there's a choice involved, try being gay for a month, a week, or even a day. I know literally hundreds of gay people that would be straight, if there was any possible way to do it. No one wants this, trust me... The nature vs. nurture arguement is an old one, but even if you believe nurture, it cannot be considered a choice...

:)
pnw


actually, what i stated was that all people are born bi-sexual with tendencies one way or the other and some people are right in the middle

what i said and what you say are not in disagreement at all

as the theory goes, it is a spectrum where no one is 100 percent anything...gay or straight

a true 50-50 bi-sexual could find it easiest in theory going one way of the other, but a person with a straight tendency would find it quite hard, but not impossible, to lead a gay lifestyle

and a gay tendency person would find it quite hard, but not impossible, to lead a straight lifestyle

i admit i only have the classes from high school and college, but at least i was an hr major so i have a little more psych classes than the average non-psych major...but i would still not compare myself to one who studied pure psych in college imho

if you look closely, i don't see a conflict with your statement and my statement co-existing...i am only quoting the most accepted bi-sexual spectrum theory...and i challenge you to find any physician who disagrees with it with a consensus behind him/her

and i am not homophobic, i volunteer for the AIDS project in my local domain and me and my wife went to a drag queen charity contest last month...i am only stating well accepted psychological theory and not talking out of my butt...like i usually do on macrumors:D

(and yeah, i am a competent techie, but prone to being sentimental with my macs from time to time)
 
jef...excellent views on how people are born and such...I think u hit on something there...

rowercpu...nature vs. nurture....I think I read a recent article on this?!

anyway...my question to u guys is this...

why is it that men who have a sense of fashion and are artistic often stereotyped as being gay?

have fun with this one! :p
 
Re: Nature vs Nurture

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Interesting examples pnw...do you think that possibly the precedent of your great-grandfather paved the way for other people in your family to be more open to "alternative" lifestyles...in addition to some possible genetic influences?

That's where it's interesting, he introduced bigotry and his own brand of racism into the mix. So the family was actually more likely to be accepting before he came along...

To some extent I do believe in the same theory that you do, about nature and nurture, altho I think nurture has a smaller role than many think... I have to automatically reject the theory, at least when I am in the public eye at all, because I'm afraid those less intelligent than you or I would assume that means "if you beat heterosexuality into your kids, you won't have any damn faries running around"...

What i mean to say is, nurture may play a part, but it's not something to be tampered with :)

thx rower for interesting discussion :)
 
Re: Re: Re: homosexuality

Originally posted by jefhatfield



actually, what i stated was that all people are born bi-sexual with tendencies one way or the other and some people are right in the middle

what i said and what you say are not in disagreement at all

as the theory goes, it is a spectrum where no one is 100 percent anything...gay or straight

a true 50-50 bi-sexual could find it easiest in theory going one way of the other, but a person with a straight tendency would find it quite hard, but not impossible, to lead a gay lifestyle

and a gay tendency person would find it quite hard, but not impossible, to lead a straight lifestyle

i admit i only have the classes from high school and college, but at least i was an hr major so i have a little more psych classes than the average non-psych major...but i would still not compare myself to one who studied pure psych in college imho

if you look closely, i don't see a conflict with your statement and my statement co-existing...i am only quoting the most accepted bi-sexual spectrum theory...and i challenge you to find any physician who disagrees with it with a consensus behind him/her

and i am not homophobic, i volunteer for the AIDS project in my local domain and me and my wife went to a drag queen charity contest last month...i am only stating well accepted psychological theory and not talking out of my butt...like i usually do on macrumors:D

(and yeah, i am a competent techie, but prone to being sentimental with my macs from time to time)

I do apologize, I never meant to infer homophobia, just that this theory can be more condusive to it when used in mainstream society. Don't want to repeat myself from my above post, which explains what I mean more, but in a lot of ways I need to push the genetic only theory, as it's less confusing and more extreme, thus "pushing the envelope" :)

Plus I get so defensive on this subject, it's instinct anymore, that I overlook what's really being said... this is a fault of mine that could almost be compared to the predjudice that I try to fight everyday :)

*group hug* hehe
:)
pnw
 
Re: Re: Nature vs Nurture

Originally posted by paulwhannel


That's where it's interesting, he introduced bigotry and his own brand of racism into the mix. So the family was actually more likely to be accepting before he came along...

To some extent I do believe in the same theory that you do, about nature and nurture, altho I think nurture has a smaller role than many think... I have to automatically reject the theory, at least when I am in the public eye at all, because I'm afraid those less intelligent than you or I would assume that means "if you beat heterosexuality into your kids, you won't have any damn faries running around"...

What i mean to say is, nurture may play a part, but it's not something to be tampered with :)

thx rower for interesting discussion :)

one can't beat away the tendency one is born with, and that should never be done

actually, kids should never be beat because they will most likely beat their own kids...numerous studies show this

and beating kids is not a gene, it is a learned behaviour, and more importantly, just plain cruelty
 
Re: Re: Nature vs Nurture

Originally posted by paulwhannel
"if you beat heterosexuality into your kids, you won't have any damn faries running around"...

It's sad that exactly this takes place so often...from what I've seen it can have exactly the opposite effect...I guess that's justice!
 
One thing:

I've noticed that the most oppressively anti-Gay men are just fighting the need to touch one another........90% of those I've met came out soon after the peak of their paranoia.

I've also noticed a link between oppressive/unstable parents and homosexuality. In that context I much prefer a happy Gay to an unhappy Psychotic. :D

I definitely resonate with the Bi-core thing........it's just that Women are so fascinatingly........soft:D

I married a marvelously voluptuous blonde with slight bi tendencies.........we have some fun laughs with those who are pouty around not being sure which way to go.;) I figure if you're not causing anybody any harm, who cares?
 
what i think most of us are getting at here is the need to understand the human animal...we are far from from concrete theories

however, bigotry against gay people, in any way, shape, or form should never be tolerated anywhere in this world

...whether that person thinks they chose their lifestyle or thinks they were born that way

i had bigotry thrown against me for being born asian

and i had bigotry thrown at my choice for being a liberal in the obviously conservative institution of mba school

bigotry is wrong. period.
 
Re: One thing:

Originally posted by mischief
I've noticed that the most oppressively anti-Gay men are just fighting the need to touch one another........90% of those I've met came out soon after the peak of their paranoia.

I've also noticed a link between oppressive/unstable parents and homosexuality. In that context I much prefer a happy Gay to an unhappy Psychotic. :D

I definitely resonate with the Bi-core thing........it's just that Women are so fascinatingly........soft:D

I married a marvelously voluptuous blonde with slight bi tendencies.........we have some fun laughs with those who are pouty around not being sure which way to go.;) I figure if you're not causing anybody any harm, who cares?

I'm just waiting for this bible-beating Fred Phelps (www.godhatesfags.com) to come out... I feel so bad, there has to be a couple gay people in his familycult, those poor people thinking God condemns them for what they can't help...

if women are soft, does that make men... hard? hehehe... I could say that's why I like 'em ;)
TMI again, perhaps :)

pnw
 
Originally posted by jefhatfield
bigotry is wrong. period.

Hear, hear.

It's funny/sad how this is a recurring theme throughout human history (recorded history, anyways). You can go back from BCE times when the Egyptians enslaved the Jews, to the Crusades, to Hitler's Germany, to modern day Israel and Tibet...it seems this is to be our legacy as a species...we'll either get over it, or kill ourselves in the process.
 
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