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Macs and Religion

That must be hard alpha tech. Im sorry also. I also had to deal with the death of a family member...my sister ..killed by a drunk driver...so in a way I know how you may feel. And that person who told you that about your father going to hell....is not the person you should listen to...of course..you figured that out. That person sounds callous with no tack. Im also sorry that that person has shaped your views on those good christians out there who actually care. You see Christians are just like everyone else..you got your good ones and your bad ones. Why? Because they are falible too..still human right. The crusades...well thats another story...but there are actually some people who feel that the crusaders back then were actually practicing satanists disguised as christians... I dont know but what they did to people was horrible and I would never wish that on anyone. I hate forcing believes or anything on people...I pride myslef on not doing that. I simply lay out what I know about the truth and let others decide for themselves. I am very apauled by those christains around me that push thier views on others...i often butt in on conversations when this happens and help the one being pushed. I understand people have different views and believes and one has to be very sensitive when dealing with these issues. I never..never..never ..in a million years want anyone to be hurt, forced, pushed or whatever like that ...by what I may do or say or by any other view. I care the best that I can (the way Jesus cared for us) for everyone. Jesus himself was open minded and he respected everyones views during his time. I plan on being the same way. I usually dont live by example of other christians..because they too are falliable... I try my best at looking at Christ as an example of how i should treat others and be. Im not too fond of the legislative side of relgion and im more into the reaching God part. I really dont care for religion ...period...because its often times not what God is. God is not religion.
But thats my belief and i hope you dont feel like im pushing that on you. Im simply stating what I view it as. You are entitled to your own views just as much as the next guy and me.

I hope I did not bother anyone on what I said. Im just trying my best to express myself while at the same time help others out while being sensitive to thier views.
 
krossfyter--

I see where you got your name.......Cross-fighter......interesting.

Im glad to see your passion and conviction about what you speak. I used to be the same way, being the son of a pastor and everything. (My father is an amazing man, because he completely allows me to explore and think for myself, and doesnt shove religion down my throat.....but I digress) So, I was raised in a Southern Baptist church--and raised around fire and brimstone preachers who proclaim that everyone and their nephew are going to hell if they dont repent.

But then I got educated. I know thats a harsh way to put it, but its true. The less you know about history, the more you subscribe to teachings straight from the Bible. So, I encourage you to really challenge what you read. Dare yourself to learn that the gospels were written designed to make the Greeks believe that Jesus was diety--and gave him a half-god, half-human birth. This made it easier for god and goddess believing greeks to subscribe to christianity. I hate to burst the bubble, but Jesus most likely was not born of a virgin, he was just a normal man with extraordinary views.

Anyway, dont take my word for it. Read--read more than just the Bible--take classes, explore. You may be suprised what you find out. I walked into my New Testament class in college completely subscribing to Christianity. Thanks to my professor, I began my journey with open eyes, and seeing for Jesus who he really was, and the world how it could be, and it doesnt involve worshipping Jesus as all. (in fact, if you look, Jesus never asked for anyone to worship him, he always pointed to God)

Anyway, we could all go on forever. Im glad this thread has been so interesting to everyone. I thought it might catch on. People just love to talk religion!!
Thanks!
 
agreenster...thanks for that. i respect your view but i have to say i disagree...not surprising right! well i hear what you are saying ...on that argument of Jesus not being diety. i have heard this plenty of times and have studied most of the views from this perspective. i can argue the old testament giving more than enough reference to Jesus being the Messiah and God in human form...etc. etc. as well as more arguments. Im sure you have heard some of these. We will go around in circles with no one gaining or loosing because we have strong believes. actually it all come down to faith...you have faith that Jesus is not the only way and I have faith that he is the only way. Added to faith I have other reasons for knowing that Jesus is the messiah and one with God. Currently Im focusing my studies on C.S. Lewis's writings/chats.....In the past I have studied asimov..hienlyn...hellinistic views as well has plato etc. etc...all those secular philosophies....I have opened my mind and heart to different view points and trying to figure out whats the truth and not. It always comes down to what Jesus has shown me himself and taught me. If we are not in tune with the holy spirit we are easily lead astray...decieved by the one whos job is to confuse the truth...making people believe the truth is a lie and a lie is the truth.. etc. etc.

But thanks anyways for telling me that. Im always eager to hear what arguments people have and thier views....regarless if they contradict mine like black and white.

:D
 
As predicted: A bar braul in the making.

The problem is of course: There is no metric for the "truth".

In a way all systems of belief are correct, that is they all have a piece of the truth. The problems arise when the differing groups try to assert that their piece is the WHOLE truth.

I think that the most terrifying possibility for most people IS the truth: The universe did not "begin" and will not "end". Basic Newtonian principals.

The argument about the displacement of context in Christianity only effects the historical accuracy of the text. All Faith is valid. Concepts like "hell" and "the Devil" are creations of the Catholic church in a need to create a "boogie man" to keep the illiterate masses in line. Faith based on fear is tenuous and often not faith at all, but a visceral driving horror.

We must keep in mind that all Faiths are based on the same framework of basic memes. The single most fundamental is (hate to be corny but....) :

"Thou shalt not violate."

The problem is, of course: we are a species polluted by lazy rules-lawyers. These are the same goofs that piss off their GM/DM's at Gaming and wear a neckbrace to court regardless of their health. They immediately ask: " Violate what? Could you be more specific? I need to be able to work a few loop-holes."

This is where self interest goes too far. We must each take responsability for our own actions and understand that no other being can govern our moral sanctity than ourselves.

We are unique only in our cognative dissonance. We can separate ourselves from the context of the moment. This is a heavy responsibility when we are also the 400Lb gorilla of our eco-system. In NO religion did God or Gaia or whomever say:" Here's a nice planet for you. Feel free to **** it up! Keep in mind that you'll be screwed first if you throw it too far out of whack."
 
I see a pattern

I simply lay out what I know about the truth and let others decide for themselves. I am very apauled by those christains around me that push thier views on others...
Click to expand...

Notice how even Christians like krossfyter, who say they are tollerant of others beliefs, and that they don't try to force their opinions on others, still preach the loudest. Almost 1/5 of the posts in this thread are from krossfyter sharing and defending his Christian beliefs.

I've lost some of my very best friends to the religon.

I was raised Christian, I am currently not practicing any religion.
 
Re: I see a pattern

Originally posted by nicely


Notice how even Christians like krossfyter, who say they are tollerant of others beliefs, and that they don't try to force their opinions on others, still preach the loudest. Almost 1/5 of the posts in this thread are from krossfyter sharing and defending his Christian beliefs.

I've lost some of my very best friends to the religon.

I was raised Christian, I am currently not practicing any religion.
Click to expand...


that loud sound you hear is my immovable ..unbreakable...faith and understanding of truth. if i be slayed for such a thing then so be it. i too am not practicing any religion. i simply follow christ. nothing more nothing less.
 
mischief....

how does this sound to you...

truth is not contengent upon us.


meaning ...we dont make or create the truth it is always there no matter what we believe of it or not.


this comes down to an understanding of absolutism and relitivism.


one persons truth is not another persons truth.

whos right? whos wrong? no one you say...(maybe the christian is wrong...this is what most people like to think).... "everyones beliefs are truth". well if everyones beliefs were truth...then we have a lot of conflicting and contradicting beliefs on truth. this would mean that everything is relative.

say that one persons beliefs hold that it is justified to kill someone else ....osama bin laden for example...

then those who say that everyones beliefs are valid....have just given the osamas a ticket to do what they do with this justification.

some of us however assert that "no the osamas beliefs are wrong because they condone the killing of others...and that just wrong" .... well where the heck did we get this idea from ? some sort of moral compass aye!!

you see not everything can be relative. people want others to believe how they want to..until of course...they justify killing. then they are wrong.

well isnt someone elses beliefs being asserted or pushed onto another?
whos right whos wrong? where do we get this moral metric system? or as i like to call it the moral compass...
 
Okay, let's break this down:

Reality is what it is. It appears that it reacts more than in simple terms to our actions.

However, morals and ethics ARE relative......this is a function of free will. Society has settled on common terms of morals and a common ethical code.

Many religions share a common belief that womever or whatever changed our view of the Universe by allowing us to see more than the moment ( to separate our personal context from that of our circumstance) also instilled in us the principal of "Thou shalt not violate".

This figure also gave us the freedom to choose our own paths. Thus both views are correct. The universe is what it is. Each of us sees it through our own unique filter as as such, each of us has a relative view and effect.

Bin Laden was, as far as he was concerned doing the "right" and perhaps even the "devout" thing. The rest of us don't see it that way. This is free-will relativism.

There are, in effect as many Universes and Gods as there are people to think and believe.

The Universe's "true" state can never be known as obsevation itself is a cognative filter. The very act of observation corrupts our data stream. In this context it can be said that all things ARE relative because no two views will ever come out the same.

As to the Universe's view of Morals and Ethics? Nothing has been said in more than 4000 years. In a system so large, aren't there more important things to keep track of? How much ego is involved in calling ourselves God's chosen monkey? How do other sapiens feel about this?
 
okay..... cant argue with you there.

do you agree that there are absoultes in the world? what do you consider as these absolutes?


free will is what we all have....able to choose whatever we want. God gave this to use becasue he did not want robots following him. Love without free will is not love.


however we all have consequences to our decisions....bad or good.
 
A Buddhist Funral

My mother went to a funeral this weekend for a friend of hers that recently passed away. The family is all Buddhist except the youngest Daughter (a new covert? we know how those are) During the service she did not participate with any of the traditional ceremonies. Then came the time for very one to come to the front and say a few words if they wanted to. The youngest daughter invited some friends of hers from her Christian Church. One guy got up in front and Asked ?Are you ready to die? she wasn?t? and pointed to the casket. He went on to explain how ?she? was going to hell and so was every non-Christian in attendance. The husband that had just lost his wife? left the room during the speech, he could not take it any more.

I have been attacked on the street, called at home, bothered at school, even harassed at Starbucks, but I have never heard of a Christian coming to a funeral of a mother religion to spout off an push their beliefs on others. I understand that part of being a Christian is to try to convert and every thing? but man that was one of the rudest things I have ever heard a Christian do in the context of pushing beliefs on people. My mother went up to the guy after the service and told him that ?I under stand that you don?t know much about the culture but to us, that was inappropriate? He called her an ?evil old women? and spouted off how only the devil would try and stop the word of God.

I wish I were in attendance? I would have showed him what the son of an evil old women is capable of when he pissed off at some self riotous Christians. Oh? did I mention that they came as 4-man force?

Some of you guys were talking about people that like to shove their beliefs down other people?s throats? Thought I would post what happened this weekend to my mother.

Add one more reason why I don?t believe??
 
thats unfortunate evildead.

this is why i dont use man or christians as an example of God (not religion since that is a man made) i try to hold Jesus up to this example for me. Jesus never fails but man and christians do.

im sick and tired of these so called christians pushing people around. however im also tired of any secular person doing the same...ive had plenty do this to me. i keep my cool though.


:D
 
Re: Re: I see a pattern

Originally posted by krossfyter
that loud sound you hear is my immovable ..unbreakable...faith and understanding of truth. if i be slayed for such a thing then so be it. i too am not practicing any religion. i simply follow christ. nothing more nothing less.
Click to expand...

I apologize....for I all but lost interest in this thread....

but...

I applaud krossfyter for his strength in his beliefs....whether he's preachy or not....he's holding true to what he believes....

that definitely a lot more than most can claim....including myself ;)
 
There are only 2 absolutes:

We all enhabit the same dream.

Change is eternal and unending.

Everything else is up to us to decide on. That is free will. That is the ballance of things.

Those of us who prey on others in any of a thousand ways only serve to strengthen the "do no harm" ethos of humanity as a whole. These are teachers every bit as great as Buddah or christ or John or Muhammad. They show us the horror that a closed mind driven by fear can create.

Some could call the first eternal "God's will" I call it the law of mutual perception. The second is a simple limitation of our awareness as metabolic creatures.

All religions agree on one thing: We exist to learn and develop beyond our basest animal selves. I also hold this belief. I am firmly of the belief that "life" is the penultimate RPG (Role Playing Game). The Characters live and die but the Gamers live on and learn about the Universe as they add lives to their experience.

I also share the belief that We are destined for things we are as yet afraid to attempt. The key to it all is communication and understanding. At no other time in history could this conversation take place. As this infrastructure spreds we will come into our birthright. Humanity is coming out of adolescence.
 
Originally posted by mischief
Concepts like "hell" and "the Devil" are creations of the Catholic church in a need to create a "boogie man" to keep the illiterate masses in line. Faith based on fear is tenuous and often not faith at all, but a visceral driving horror.
Click to expand...


hell was mentioned in the old testament...right after the babylonian captivity (the old testament is not in chronological order)....it could not have been created by the catholic church....it was first mentioned in jewish text.
 
Re: There are only 2 absolutes:

Originally posted by mischief
We all enhabit the same dream.

Change is eternal and unending.

Everything else is up to us to decide on. That is free will. That is the ballance of things.

Those of us who prey on others in any of a thousand ways only serve to strengthen the "do no harm" ethos of humanity as a whole. These are teachers every bit as great as Buddah or christ or John or Muhammad. They show us the horror that a closed mind driven by fear can create.

Some could call the first eternal "God's will" I call it the law of mutual perception. The second is a simple limitation of our awareness as metabolic creatures.

All religions agree on one thing: We exist to learn and develop beyond our basest animal selves. I also hold this belief. I am firmly of the belief that "life" is the penultimate RPG (Role Playing Game). The Characters live and die but the Gamers live on and learn about the Universe as they add lives to their experience.

I also share the belief that We are destined for things we are as yet afraid to attempt. The key to it all is communication and understanding. At no other time in history could this conversation take place. As this infrastructure spreds we will come into our birthright. Humanity is coming out of adolescence.
Click to expand...


very profound thoughts there. i like your style. :D
 
hell is a simplification.

It's remarcably difficult to translate aramaic without using 2 or 3 words per concept. The text that we are used to seeing was translated through Greek and Roman versions. Those are the cultures that give us the modern concept of Purgatory. Dante is responsible for the "layer-cake" version.

The passage may translate many ways but I assure you, no Jewish scholar will find a reference to "hell" in their texts, old or new.

For example:

The old hebrew word for "God" translates as a Plural gender-neutral meaning more akin to "Great Spirit" as the American Aborigines use.

The hebrew word "Elohim" is translated as: God, The Angels, The Chorus of Angels, The Council of Maji etc., etc. Effectively in it's original context all these meanings were used interchangeably.

I believe that you can make your own "hell" if you find a road toward spiritual fulfillment and actively deny it's teachings in your own beliefs, thus denying yourself.
 
I've been thinking...

You know those Christians that don't enjoy themselves because they believe they are sinning? I hope nobody on this site ever turns out like that.

I believe that we should live life to the fullest, and not have some "all mighty" force restraining us from doing so. ?Do we only live life once? I sure as hell hope not, for then I could not see what Apple has made! :D

As for religion, I was born Christian, but I have only gone to church about 10 times in my whole life to pray. 4 of them were for my dying aunt which had cancer, and I dont even know what the otehr 6 were.

All I am saying is that I think there is something that created us, but it is not MY master. I think that diversity is great.

Maybe a greek god created greeks. And a Chico god created chineese, and so on...

I maybe spend 1 second per day thinking about religion. It all doesn't add up. If mary was a virgin, how did she have a baby? I dont know what I am even talking about.

I do think people should mourn and stuff like that. When there is a tragedy, like 9-11, people should not start getting into religion crap. I heard some girl sued her school because they had a moment of SILENCE. Not prayer, silence. The bi*ch was offended and sued! Now that is horse crap.

I think I am going to stop writing now, for what I am saying probly doesn't make much sence.
 
Like krossfyter, I'm a christian. I have seen too many incredible things happen in my life to doubt God's existence. I think what krossfyter has said so far is biblically sound and trustworthy. And I would also recommend "Mere Christianity" to you if you're interested in seeing what the christian faith is all about.

This forum is really interesting to me because I'm in a class right now at college on the philosophy of religion and we've gotten into some of the same stuff people have mentioned here. I'm also in an Old Testament class where we've been dealing with the issue of the validity of the Bible, and although there's new archaeological evidence each year about that pro and con, I'm pretty convinced that the Bible is true. I'm also reasonably certain that nothing I could say right now would convince you either way. But if you ever have the urge to go and see what the Bible has to say, I'd recommend reading the New International Version translation because it's straightforward and easy to understand. Peace.
 
Holy Crap! (pun intended)

I cant believe this thread is still going. If this keeps up, Ill win the "longest thread starter" award. That is, unless, arn shuts us down.

But i do have some comments.

Buddism, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Scientologists, Mormons, Catholics, and Jews. What do they all have in common? None of them, not ONE person from this faith has ever died and came back to tell about it. Yes, thats right--even jesus.

FACE it people. We do NOT, and CAN not know truth regarding the afterlife. Hell nor heaven can be promised anyone, becuse we dont even know if it exists.

Faith? Faith is nothing more than the polite way of saying, "I really dont know the truth, but as long as I believe in something, and truly believe in it, then that will become truth based on that belief." Hogwash! That would be like someone jumping out of an airplane, not knowing if they have a parachute on, but believing really hard that they do, and then telling everyone else that they are going to die and go to hell if they dont start believing it too. Gimme a break!

I strongly believe that Jesus was just a man who valued love over laws and rules. And what did he manage to do? Spur a religion of rules and laws.

I believe that if jesus were alive today, he would be very, very dissapointed. I know you strongly believe that you are 'lead' by the Holy Spirit, and I know what you are feeling. (i used to be a holy roller too) But start facing the music- This world is RUN by chance, danger, and luck. Right now, someone is getting promoted, hitting the lottery, and having a baby. Right now. Also right now, someone has just been hit by a car, died of cancer, just had their husband divorce them, or lost a baby in delivery. its called life. its called earth.

Whats my point? That its silly, rediculous, and time-wasting to spend every moment thinking about God, and the church, getting to choir practice on time, or if the Holy Spirit is 'leading' you in the right direction. Its so hypocritical. people could either make a good decision and be promoted, or make the wrong one and get fired. A normal person would say, "Sheesh, looks like I made a poor decision." But the christian says, "it was the will of the Holy Spirit."

Love your fellow man. Do good in the sight of your friends and your enemies. Follow what Jesus actually said---dont follow a silly hocus pocus religion. jesus was practical and logical. I choose to be THAT kind of follower, and let the afterlife take care of itself, however it may be. Thats real courage. Thats real faith.
 
raised a catholic... and still am... although i do not go to church on a weekly basis, i still try to do what i think God intended me to do... live my life to the fullest. :)
 
re: krossfyter

Originally posted by krossfyter
thats unfortunate evildead.

this is why i dont use man or christians as an example of God (not religion since that is a man made) i try to hold Jesus up to this example for me. Jesus never fails but man and christians do.

im sick and tired of these so called christians pushing people around. however im also tired of any secular person doing the same...ive had plenty do this to me. i keep my cool though.


:D
Click to expand...


Thats a good attitude. I respect peoples beliefs and I know it takes a lot of guts to actuly follow those beliefs. what I dont like if being told how "evil" i am and how bad of a person I am by members of youth groups that bing in lonly yought people that need friends, bribe them with friend ship to join the faith and then engage in underage driking and sex all under the shroud of "Christian Group". I was once at a Wedding with a big group of people that all were in the same youth group spanning multiple chapters (they were no longer in it... got too old) They were swaping stories of the good old days. How the older members would buy the booze, and how one underage couple got cault having sex while so un-inhibited by the driks, having sex in the living room at a party infront of eveyone. They all were having a great time talking about it. I butted in and said. "gosh... I should have joined up. Us heathens had a hard time in High shool getting our hands on booze. And who needs prono when you have underage girls having sex right in front of you" They didnt like that. I said "what... was it something I said... all I mean is you relgious people know how to party" I guess they didnt like my jokes. They told the minister that was giving the service that I needed a talking to... he did durring the reception.

No one is perfict... Im glad that you see that and you incorporate that into your faith. I respect that.
 
This post is not meant to offend anyone!

ok to ponyboy, I agree with you and apologize I did not make the distinction between religious fascism and hitler, I would capitalize but being a Jew it would be too eery :) ok and with regards to hitler think about this for a second, ok so he didnt like jews, lets not forget blacks, non-german/arians, gays, lesbians, etc. 12 million in total. he thought he and his own were superior to everyone else, so in an abstact way you have to believe that the reason for his belief was a convoluted religious one. The reason he did not publicise it was because if he offended the world as people no biggie, offend the world's religions oh **** watch out! And if I'm wrong i'll find out when I meet him on the other side, I for one do not believe anyone goes to a hell, I believe we are all here for a reason be it good or bad. Hypothetically speaking if reincarnation exists: if you lived all your lives in a good and just manner, how would you complete the journey? By committing an amount of evil equal to the good you have done. That is my view, and anyway I know former arians and neonazis that firmly believed they were better because of a mandate from above and via science, which we all know now is not true, at least scientifically. With regards to science, in Judaism G-d created everything with a set of boundaries and rules. so if playing by the rules G-d cannot directly do something that was not built into the rules of nature. With that principle in mind Rabbi's believe all true science must agree with religion. So eveything, every miracle, occurence, was built into the OS of the universe. I firmly believe this, now unto the comments of Jesus, I would hyphenate out of respect but I dunno where to put it. OK I do believe he was the son of G-d, as much as I believe that we are all the son's and daughter's of G-d. Jesus was jewish, he performed miracles as numerous others have in the historical record even those of other religions and descents. For me Jesus was a prophet of G-d as Moses was, etc. But in respect for the miracles performed by every holyman, the power resides in everyone, human will is the strongest force. If we want something badly enough as a group our focused energy creates it, this effect has been documented when a sick person is miraculously healed through a congregation praying intently for the person. We use 10 percent of our brains, imagine if we could unlock the rest, imagine having full psionic capabilities, being able to communicate with G-d, move things with your minds, create miracles, it is all possible, but most of us are unworthy. The messiah many are waiting for would most likely be laughed out of existence because any miracle could be dismissed as a trick, hallucination, etc. People are expecting some shocking miracle, in the old days simple miracles sufficed for a prophet to prove himself. In closing I wished not to offend anyone by this post and am just stating my opinion and would love feedback, and love reading everyone's opinions and ramblings it makes me overjoyed to sit here @ 2am reading and responding to this post listening to my ipod, using my ibook, and knowing that we are all communicating and a respectable and civilized manner :) perhaps this is the true meaning of commraderie, perhaps not.

OK 3 more things, Bill Gates is the ultimate expression of evil, and out of hatred for winblows I hope they do have to pull winblows off the market. secondly, Steve Jobs is an angel :) mac rocks! but speaking of reincarnation again, think they will have to switch sides to complete their journeys. Third and final, I figured out what the big bang actually was it was the loudest ever startup chime signifying the booting of the best mac around, G-ds mac!

Oh and a question to everyone, I know you love your macs, I will be buried with a piece of apple hardware in my coffin, and I was wondering if anyone else would volunteer to be the first group to be cybernetically linked to their computers when man and machine begin to meld? of course on a mac :)
 
Re: I've been thinking...

Originally posted by Mac_User

I believe that we should live life to the fullest, and not have some "all mighty" force restraining us from doing so. ?Do we only live life once? I sure as hell hope not, for then I could not see what Apple has made! :D

Click to expand...


I see "the all mighty" ...God...as not restraining us from having fun or doing what we want... he allows us to do whatever we want. however there are consequences to our decisions and only God knows the best direction for us...so he directs us into what we should do...its up to us to decide.... so I see him as the protector...keeps us from harming oursleves. Fun can be whatever we want it to be. Its relative to us. Someones (God forbid) fun might be killing people. So by your statement then that person should be allowed to have that fun. To that person thats living life to the fullist....you see what im getting at?((((Once again we into the wonderful world of abolutism and relativism))))
That person will have direct consequences to his/her idea of fun. So ...for the person who follows God...God will have made that person understand that thier version of fun is going to get him/her in trouble.
Gods a protector.
Just because one follows God does not mean they dont have any fun...its just not the Mainstream fun that everyone else has....so to speak. These people who follow GOd believe it to be the cleanest most abundant fun one could have. NOthing wrong with that.

Anyways I hope you understand where im getting at.

dig it!
 
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