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Re: Holy Crap! (pun intended)

Originally posted by agreenster
I cant believe this thread is still going. If this keeps up, Ill win the "longest thread starter" award. That is, unless, arn shuts us down.

But i do have some comments.

Buddism, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Scientologists, Mormons, Catholics, and Jews. What do they all have in common? None of them, not ONE person from this faith has ever died and came back to tell about it. Yes, thats right--even jesus.

FACE it people. We do NOT, and CAN not know truth regarding the afterlife. Hell nor heaven can be promised anyone, becuse we dont even know if it exists.

Faith? Faith is nothing more than the polite way of saying, "I really dont know the truth, but as long as I believe in something, and truly believe in it, then that will become truth based on that belief." Hogwash! That would be like someone jumping out of an airplane, not knowing if they have a parachute on, but believing really hard that they do, and then telling everyone else that they are going to die and go to hell if they dont start believing it too. Gimme a break!

I strongly believe that Jesus was just a man who valued love over laws and rules. And what did he manage to do? Spur a religion of rules and laws.

I believe that if jesus were alive today, he would be very, very dissapointed. I know you strongly believe that you are 'lead' by the Holy Spirit, and I know what you are feeling. (i used to be a holy roller too) But start facing the music- This world is RUN by chance, danger, and luck. Right now, someone is getting promoted, hitting the lottery, and having a baby. Right now. Also right now, someone has just been hit by a car, died of cancer, just had their husband divorce them, or lost a baby in delivery. its called life. its called earth.

Whats my point? That its silly, rediculous, and time-wasting to spend every moment thinking about God, and the church, getting to choir practice on time, or if the Holy Spirit is 'leading' you in the right direction. Its so hypocritical. people could either make a good decision and be promoted, or make the wrong one and get fired. A normal person would say, "Sheesh, looks like I made a poor decision." But the christian says, "it was the will of the Holy Spirit."

Love your fellow man. Do good in the sight of your friends and your enemies. Follow what Jesus actually said---dont follow a silly hocus pocus religion. jesus was practical and logical. I choose to be THAT kind of follower, and let the afterlife take care of itself, however it may be. Thats real courage. Thats real faith.


I understand what your saying here. ...for the most part I agree with it.. I srongly disagree with the Jesus just being a man....of course.


Your right about following what Jesus said...not to follow any hocus pocus religion... Jesus did not come down to set up a religion or a creed or a doctrine or a set of rules.... His main mission was to save the lost and show us how to live an abundant life...Some people dont see that part because mans religion has unfortunalty coverd it for them.

People have thier views of Jesus or Christianity skewed or harmed because of the bad apples in Christianity.


This thread has gone on more then I thought it would. Im glad no one is becoming hostile. Its cool how everyone just says what they are going to say and they stay cool.


Dig it!
 
with regard to krossfyter

Think about it this way krossfyter, assuming G-d exists as well as the afterlife: if G-d did create everything, then G-d created both good and evil, maybe G-d created evil not only to show us the joy of goodness, but because we all need to experience evil @ one point or another to be a whole beautiful being. Be it through sorrow, or causing sorrow. And also if G-d did create anything then surely it would be hippocritical of G-d to punish us for indulging in G-d's creations no matter the human classification of such, so what do you think krossfyter?
 
you are right God created everything. in order for good to exist there must be a bad...in order for light there must be a dark.

simple right! it gets more complicated though.

Gods gives us free will...without it there is no such thing has choice or love.
God creates man. God has a sytem set up for man if they dont sin and a system set up if they do sin. Because of free will these systems have to be there. Man decides to sin. Now were in this system. Initially GOd wanted for man not to sin.

Where does evil come from? Evil wasnt there in the start..or was it? You say satan. Well Satan before he was Satan...was Lucifer....Angel of Light. Lucifer decided to go against God. There we have the first rebellion and in comes the first partaker of the opposite side of God that was there already. The whole system has two sides...good side bad side.

So you say...well God created evil then....so why must we be punished for indulging in it if its Gods creation...doesnt this make him hypocritical? Well thats not the proper way of looking at it. God created a universe in which evil had to exist because without one side there cant be another. It just has to be this way. However we could have avoided being in a sinful world by not taking apart in that evil. If Lucifer hadnt rebelled and we hadnt followed him into this sin....we would have been in a much more different world. One without sin. One in which God initially intended for us to live in.The bad side would still be there in this world....but we wouldnt have been apart of it as we are now. So now were in it ...so now God is working with us in this system!!!



Hope its not to confusing.....cause it sure as hell sounds like it is!!:D
 
I'm confused Krossfyter...

If you agree with me that one should follow the practical example of jesus, and not the hocus-pocus religion, then why do you still subscribe to

1. jesus being god
2. lucifer/angels/satan
3. miracles
4. etc.

That was my point, that Jesus didnt give a rip about doctrine, angels, satan, history, etc. he cared mainly about forgiveness.

Now religion has caused everyone to get all philosophical, arguing whether or not god created evil. People tend to call something evil when it is the absense of progress, goodness, and health.

Good and evil is relative. Most people would agree that killing is evil, but i'd be willing to bet that 90% of Americans would like Osama's head on a pole. Evil exists in this world the same reaon everything else does: misfortunes, greed, chance, close-mindedness, and selfishness.
 
Davidc2182, welcome to the discussion.

It's nice to have a scholar about.

In terms of Lucipher and Evil.

Lucipher, Angel of Light is otherwise referred to as G-d's accusor or questioner. Lucipher, in every instance was exposing what was always there. The ability to choose to fight the Path is part of who we are.



On the subject of Faith.

Faith has nothing to do with dogma. Faith is about focussing your whole self on the positive. It's about not getting caught up in the rather selfish act of thinking you're getting screwed by the universe. If you can see the beauty that comes from tragedy, adversity, suffering of all kinds as well as the things that are easy to Love, you have attained ultimate Faith. In this state you work more fully "in" the Universe. From either the metaphysical OR psycho-social this makes sense. If no one allows themself the indulgance of feeling victimized no one gets victimized and we can all move on with exploring and enjoying the trillions of cubic parsecs of stuff out there. If we don't do it as a whole species, we'll never do it.

I don't know about you but I'm getting a little Cabin crazy on this mudball.
 
i believe as krossfyter does and takes the same even handed approach that he does...i am not the "crusader" type ;-)

hey, where is the gold hidden these days?, just kidding

i use macs and pc machines both and one of the groups of people i hang out with besides macrumors is a pc club i belong to in california

the president of the pc club, also a mac user since the beginning of apple like me, once told me, "isn't apple like a cult with steve jobs their jim jones' type leader and cupertino their cathedral?...just look at the building, it looks more like a church than a business"

my employee who is in a well known cult is nowhere as "zealous" as some mac people i run into sometimes

i wonder if there is a macs annonymous? ;-)

"hi, my name is jefhatfield, and i am a macaddict, (hello jef) and i can't get off my couch because my ibook is holding me hostage!"
 
some days, i think bill gates is the anti-christ

and some days, when steve jobs says something really stupid, i think who needs enemies like bill gates when steve jobs is at the helm of apple?

but then steve always seem to redeem himself briefly with a cool mac product
 
non hurtful replies

to mischief, thanks for the welcome albeit i've been here since the beginning of this conversation, but its nice to be welcomed by another member, I wouldnt say i'm a scholar, but i've got my own theories.

To krossfyter, as i am technically jewish, I of course do not believe the same ideals as you. I do not believe that man should be punished for anything he does by another man, except when you harm another man or yourself. For example if you kill someone, and they have a conscience, then you shold let them rot in jail to pay for their sin, but if you only beat someone once your debt to society is paid, it's up to G-d to punish you. Another example if your a smoker or you over eat its not up to doctors to save you, you consciously decided to smoke, drink, over eat, etc. You deal with the conscequences, basically its ok if we kill ourselves but not someone else! I do not believe that there is punishment in the afterlife because I believe in karma and reincarnation. And with reincarnation there comes a journey for each soul, which must experience everything in order to be whole. Life is an experience, it can be painful or joyful and it is your choice. The basic way i look at everything is that G-d creates man, G-d is outside of time and space and as such does not have to abide by the rules G-d created. So we are here to learn lessons, both good and evil, no matter how many trips we make to complete the journey, then we die, and we go to paradise as a balanced spiritual being. Now I've got major issues with any organized religion, I do not understand how someone can have faith in something they cannot physically sense, so they create an idol, figurehead, worship ideal, etc. Jesus, Mohammed, greek and roman g-ds, etc. The reason for my belief in G-d comes not from some religion and not from faith, it comes from a belief that we are not an accident, we didnt happen by chance, it was not amino acids bumping together at random that created everything. And I also do not believe we are alone in the universe, what a ginormous waste of space. :) Anything that has a soul, which i believe only humans and intelligent mammals such as dolphins, etc, have. Are all children of G-d, all we have to do is realize it, and open ourselves up to the endless possibilities. Jesus even said the temple of G-d is not inside a house made of stone and wood but inside of each person. Why do you think many jewish and pre jewish artifacts and scrolls are housed in the vatican where no one can see them. They admit to having jewish artifacts but will not even display them for people to see, or give them back to the jews as should be done. Why are there tombs in egypt which were sealed from the inside which the government will not allow us to open? Why in the world is there a painting on the wall of a temple of some ancient civilization, i forget which, but the painting or drawing shows every different type of ethnic group on the planet, and its carbon dated to before people of these ethnic groups traversed the globe!

And about the nazi's I asked my professor from my introduction to World Religions class if hitler did what he did in the name of G-d and she said yes so there!

In the end no one should be offended by what i've said, if you are I offer you my sincerest apologies. Every person is entitled to their opinion, nothing is right or wrong, there should be no judement of our kin. We do not live in that world, we live in this world where everyone is in the grey area.

And here's a time theory for ya!
There is lineal time, circular time, and then there is my version. Think of a film projectors film reel. Time is wound up into the reel, and it plays through the projector in an endless cycle, each time things happen a little differently, what you see on the screen is the present, what played, the past, what is going to be played the future. so when you die and your frame is wound up touch other frames and your soul jumps to another life, it is simply walking through your frame and into another frame either in future or past. And then the system resets and the startup chime is heard (big bang!)
 
good thought there.


yep hitler did think he was doing Gods job just like osama...but obviously he wasnt.

that last reel analogy to life was sorta existentionalist. interesting but definitly existentionalist.


true...God is not bound by time and space...he is outside all the dimensions.

i believe that without a doubt. makes sense scientifically too.
newton and einstien both believed that the one who created this universe is not bound by the universal laws.... it cant be any other way..so they baisically say.

what this says is the basis for God in Judeo Christian view actually is supported by a valid scientific basis...which makes the other God/s in other beliefs not supported by this same scientic basis....which basically elimenates all this other religions except for Judiasm and Christianity...

reason being all the other religions hold thier God/s inside time and space...etc. etc.


I never knew that untill I studied it. However Im sure someone can argue this with some valid thoughts etc.. etc.

just thought i would share what i learned....and belive untill i can find a valid rebuttle for this.
 
Wow, this has got to be the longest thread with the most views in these forums. I think we should all get together, I'll bring my guitar and we can all sing koombaya together. Seriously though, if any of you guys are familiar with my posts, I do kid around a lot. I think I need to reign it in a little. Anyway, you guys can all argue until you're blue in the face. It's all about faith. What do you have faith in? Where is the ultimate authority? Perhaps that's the problem or part of it. Human nature to search for the absolute authority and definitive answer. Hence, wars, crusades, jihad. Look in the mirror, it's our nature. No one has THE answer. They say they do but they don't. One argument is no better than the other. I think we're entering an age of an awakening. At least I hope. We're slowly moving out of superstition and myth that spooked and entertained us around the village campfire. But we need to be cautious, because in this society we suffer from a deep sense of displacement. The "fish out of water syndrome" as I call it. We no longer occupy a village where you know everyone and care about eachother. Commonalities elude us, hence forums like these. Mac lovers. We live in big megalopolises. Hec, we surf the net. We have drive-throughs. Do you even know your neighbor or the guy down the street? Emotional dissonance. What can fill it up?
Remember that Heavan's Gate cult in California? The folks who thought they were going to hop on a spaceship behind the Hale-Bopp comet? They committed mass suicide with their Nike sneakers on? As I recall, more than a few of them had Ph.D.'s. Think about that one.
 
They should have listened to Jesus. Then they wouldnt have died in vain.

You propose....that truth or what is right is relative with that post. How can this be?

If everything is relative...then surely someone killing you is fine if that is what they believe to be right.

You see what happens with moral realitivism? Kinda gets screwy all over the place.
 
Re: Ifeelbloated

Ifeelbloated, we are not arguing, just having a rational and logical discussion about things of a religious nature, thats all!
 
Re: krossfyter

About the science bit krossfyter, if you think about it scientifically it is impossible to be G-d in human form or G-d's son, since he exists outside of our realm. Furthermore G-d can only work within science and nature, of course we do not know the boundaries of the universe but I think that many miracles were created by human energy, they focused their faith, like when the walls of jericho fell, or when the red sea split, or whichever other events happened.
 
Well, I thought my post may have been interpreted as moral relativism. I'll try to be more concise. I meant that no faith has more validity or less validity than the other. They are all good in their best way. I don't have a problem with any teachings that promote care and compassion. That's ethics. We need ethics to function as a society. If someone does kill me, maybe it was wrong maybe it wasn't. Did I deserve it?
If there is a murderer on the loose then it's perfectly fine to hunt him down and lock him up or kill him. Or else he may kill you or me, a good citizen. Law abiding, productive, has good things to offer. A productive and gainfully employed member of society. He may kill your child. Someone you love or have great hopes for. We, us, have both decided yes, this must be done. For the good of everyone and our future. Then we must make more decisions for the betterment of us and our society. More rules, laws, ethics. If a priest runs down a toddler on a bicycle. What do we do? The man, the man must be held accountable for his actions. Was he drunk? Was it manslaughter? A terrible accident? We all have decided in agreement even before the event happened. The lawyers can argue if he was negligent or not, people will burn him in effigy or cry for his release. We can get into the murky area of politics there.
In the news a little while ago, a Yale professor was finally sentenced to prison. He is a convicted pedophile yet at his arraignment some of his colleagues were pleading for leniency! They argued he was a good geologist and a very smart man! I don't care if he craps gold bullions, he's going to the State Pen to meet Bubba his new cell mate!
Jesus was a great man, yes. His teachings are great. But I don't believe in the Resurrection. I cannot believe that someone can rise from the dead like he did or people claim he did. It's just not possible. If he could rise from the dead why couldn't he be immortal so he could teach mankind forever about right and wrong? Instead of just taking off and leaving it up to us to HOPEFULLY, get it right. I could imagine the disciples just looking at eachother and saying "Oh man, we're screwed". Granted, if you do rise from the dead like he did, believe me I will listen very carefully to what you have to say.
 
Wasn't the translation Sun and not Son?

I was under the impression that the oldest texts use a title more akin to "luminary" than "kin" for Christ. In addition I was under the impression that Christ was also a priestly (I suppose Rabinnical) title.

The history I have pieced together puts JC as an Essene revivalist.

"Oh Birther, Father-Mother of the cosmos, You create all that moves in light.
Oh, Thou! The Breathing Life of all, Creator of the Shimmering Sound that touches us.
Respiration of all worlds, we hear you breathing-in and out-in silence.
Source of Sound in the roar and the whisper, in the breeze and the whirlwind, we hear your Name.
Radiant One: you shine within us, outside us-even darkness shines-when we remember.
Name of names our small identity unravels in you, you give it back as a lesson.
Wordless Action, Silent Potency- where ears and Eyes awaken, there heaven comes.
Oh Birther, Father/Mother of the cosmos."

Translation from the Erimaic,
The Lord's Prayer, condensed for generalized word meaning.
 
Re: Re: krossfyter

Originally posted by davidc2182
About the science bit krossfyter, if you think about it scientifically it is impossible to be G-d in human form or G-d's son, since he exists outside of our realm. Furthermore G-d can only work within science and nature, of course we do not know the boundaries of the universe but I think that many miracles were created by human energy, they focused their faith, like when the walls of jericho fell, or when the red sea split, or whichever other events happened.


Well not exactly...you are missing an important concept, i believe....

Since God is God and He can do whatever he wants....He can surely be in human form. The trinity...

what can exist in gasous form...liquid form...and a solid?
different states but one substance.

what has 6 sides but all the sides make up a whole object?

My uncle.....While he is my uncle he can also be someones father and someones son. Do you see what im getting at here?



God does exist outside of our realm..right!...Since God is God he can also exist inside our realm. Why limit God to one realm or just outside it? God is inter and multi dimensional.

In order for us humans to get out of the mess were in one has to come and walk in our shoes (a model) and go through all that we go through in order to save us...

I learned about incarnation when I kept a salt water aquarium. Management of a marine aquarium, I discovered, is no easy task. I had to run a portable chemical laboratory to monitor the nitrate levels and the ammonia content. i pumped in vitamins and anitbiotics and sulfa drugs and enough enzymes to make a rock grow...I filtered the water through glass fibers and charcoal and exposed it to unltraviolet light. you would think in view of all the energy expended on thier behalf that my fish would at least be grateful...not so...everytime my shadow loomed above the tank they dove for cover into the nearest shell. they showed me one "emotion" only...fear. although I opened the lid and dropped in food on a regular schedule, three times a day, they responded to each visit as a sure sign of my designs to torture them. i could not convince them of my true concern. to my fish i was deity... i was too lage for them my actions too incomprehensible. my act of mercy they saw as cruelty my attempts at healing they viewed as destruction. to change thier perception i began to see would require a form of incarnation. i would have to become a fish and speak to them in a lanquage they could understand. a human being becoming a fish is nothing compared to God becoming entering humanity as a baby (human form)..


dig it!
 
Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
Well, I thought my post may have been interpreted as moral relativism. I'll try to be more concise. I meant that no faith has more validity or less validity than the other. They are all good in their best way. I don't have a problem with any teachings that promote care and compassion. That's ethics. We need ethics to function as a society. If someone does kill me, maybe it was wrong maybe it wasn't. Did I deserve it?
If there is a murderer on the loose then it's perfectly fine to hunt him down and lock him up or kill him. Or else he may kill you or me, a good citizen. Law abiding, productive, has good things to offer. A productive and gainfully employed member of society. He may kill your child. Someone you love or have great hopes for. We, us, have both decided yes, this must be done. For the good of everyone and our future. Then we must make more decisions for the betterment of us and our society. More rules, laws, ethics. If a priest runs down a toddler on a bicycle. What do we do? The man, the man must be held accountable for his actions. Was he drunk? Was it manslaughter? A terrible accident? We all have decided in agreement even before the event happened. The lawyers can argue if he was negligent or not, people will burn him in effigy or cry for his release. We can get into the murky area of politics there.
In the news a little while ago, a Yale professor was finally sentenced to prison. He is a convicted pedophile yet at his arraignment some of his colleagues were pleading for leniency! They argued he was a good geologist and a very smart man! I don't care if he craps gold bullions, he's going to the State Pen to meet Bubba his new cell mate!
Jesus was a great man, yes. His teachings are great. But I don't believe in the Resurrection. I cannot believe that someone can rise from the dead like he did or people claim he did. It's just not possible. If he could rise from the dead why couldn't he be immortal so he could teach mankind forever about right and wrong? Instead of just taking off and leaving it up to us to HOPEFULLY, get it right. I could imagine the disciples just looking at eachother and saying "Oh man, we're screwed". Granted, if you do rise from the dead like he did, believe me I will listen very carefully to what you have to say.


this is colorful.

Okay I hear ya in the law part. I can dig it.
...the ressurrection part..

i too before i gave my life to Chirst...often thought... why didnt Jesus just stay here and teach us forever? Im suppose to believe something that I cant see before my eyes?
however...i came to undersand that God has the perfect plan he is God after all. The way it was done was the only way it could be done. If Jesus would have stayed...then we would never practice faith...and get better at it. Faith is important. Posssibly this is a good reason why God had it done this way...Jesus not staying behind. Im sure there are other good reasons that ellude me at the moment.

dig it!
 
believing in something one cannot see could be called blind faith

and that it is...but without faith which is blind anyway, we cannot find happiness

to think that we humans are the highest thing in the universe is too scary to imagine
 
Actually I dont think its blind.


God wants us to use all our heart mind and soul.


God gives directions on how to navigate this world. Maybe initially one is blind before accepting him.

Faith is the evidence of things unseen.
 
Originally posted by jefhatfield

hey, where is the gold hidden these days?


well, depending on what theory you subscribe to, the real treasure that the 'crusaders' were looking for is now hidden in a vault beneath Rosslyn Church in scotland.
 
Read the other 2 books.

It's in Nova Scotia. It went with the Scotts loyalists to Canada. Besides, it's not about the Gold.........it's about the artifacts of lost technology. Talk to the Ethiopians about the Downlink though. Sheba got the good stuff.
 
yup. Sheba got the good stuff and passed it on to solomon (hence the fame and fortune associated with him).

Just out of interest, which books are you refering to?
 
Not what I meant.

Sheba and Solomon had a Son who bailed out of Israel with the Ark......bailed to Sheba's homeland: Ethiopia. The interesting thing about the Ark is: it couldn't be siezed unless it wanted to be siezed. It had a rather nasty history of zapping people it didn't like. Funny thing that: the object that embodied humanity's contract with the Force wacking people at random.

The Books:

Holy Blood, Holy Grail.

(this is an excellent research piece about the Templars and Judaic history. Though the Authors are on a bit of a power trip.)



The Sign and the Seal.

(Follows and details the Artifacts including the Ark)



Genisis.

(Follows the ties between Essene faith and Egyptian polytheism)



Supplemental:

Worlds in Collision by Immanuel Velikovski

(Out of print. Veikcovski was a contemporary of Einstein who murdered his career with this book which describes a cycle of Cataclisms recorded in the world's oral histories. He rants a bit but the result is compelling.)


Memnoch the Devil by Anne Rice

(Not research by any means, but a fresh take on Lucipher and his role in the universe)
 
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