Major gaming news at WWDC: Metal and New games

[salamanderjuice]

In the end all of this doesn’t really matter. Most of the arguments people have about Mac do not make sense.

“It’s too difficult to develop”
PS3 was very difficult and it did just fine

“macOS is hostile by dropping support for old technologies”
This 32 bit drop again. People do realize this was done to get ready for Apple Silicon Macs right? They gave developers enough notice. It’s not Apple’s fault if developers abandoned their products. And by the way, Windows 11 can’t play every game realized even in the Windows XP days either.

“Linux is overtaken macOS in popularity”
Well valve has an actual product that uses Linux so of course they well prioritize that. Linux gaming sucks if you use an NVIDIA graphics card. Which is what 90% of these gamers on these threads want Apple to use again. Regardless the stats do not reflect this. Even the slight increase is due to the Steam Deck. If Valve actually spent even a minor effort in macOS and made the Steam client nice, people would use it more. I ultimately just re-purchased Factorio on their website and bought some games on the App Store because I just can’t deal with Steam’s issues. I’m tired of it locking up and force closing it every day.

You can be difficult to develop for if you're in a good position. Sony had to do a lot of work cutting the price, creating exclusives, etc. to get units sold to make the PS3 an actually desirable place for developers to target. Early on there was plenty of "PS3 has no games" memes. Apple hasn't done the work to make the Mac an attractive platform for game developers. It's extra work for a pittance of extra sales.

It's not just the 32 bit drop. Apple dropped Classic support with Leopard/Intel, so 1984-2000ish era games became unplayable, they dropped PPC support cutting off early OS X titles, then the 32 bit drop. And I wouldn't be surprised if they drop the depreciated OpenGL support in the near future or Intel support. They have a reputation for doing it repeatedly. Sure, not every Windows XP game works on Windows 11 but it's a great many more than early Mac OS X games (Only one I can think of off the top of my head is Sim City 4, no idea if a PPC Mac CD version of that will even update to be usable on ARM either).

Linux gaming with Nvidia is really not that bad. AMD is better, but I'd wager it's better than macOS.

 

[Ethosik]

Basically is is a marketshare question/problem (yet again).

Yep!

 

[MRMSFC]

It’s like dude works for Valve, or owns stock in the company, or something!

- Valve is private, there are no stocks to buy

- to be perfectly fair, I have heard so much praise for the Steam Deck that I don’t see an issue with his praise of it specifically.

- I am perturbed that any criticism of Valve is denied or deflected though. To an absurd degree.

 

[Ethosik]

You can be difficult to develop for if you're in a good position. Sony had to do a lot of work cutting the price, creating exclusives, etc. to get units sold to make the PS3 an actually desirable place for developers to target. Early on there was plenty of "PS3 has no games" memes. Apple hasn't done the work to make the Mac an attractive platform for game developers. It's extra work for a pittance of extra sales.

It's not just the 32 bit drop. Apple dropped Classic support with Leopard/Intel, so 1984-2000ish era games became unplayable, they dropped PPC support cutting off early OS X titles, then the 32 bit drop. And I wouldn't be surprised if they drop the depreciated OpenGL support in the near future or Intel support. They have a reputation for doing it repeatedly. Sure, not every Windows XP game works on Windows 11 but it's a great many more than early Mac OS X games (Only one I can think of off the top of my head is Sim City 4, no idea if a PPC Mac CD version of that will even update to be usable on ARM either).

Linux gaming with Nvidia is really not that bad. AMD is better, but I'd wager it's better than macOS.

I lose about 100fps when I game on Linux. It’s really not good for NVIDIA.

Again it’s just abandonware. Do you really expect Apple Silicon to be able to play 1984 games? Not even PS5 can play some PS3 games. Let alone PS2 and PS1. Windows 11 doesn’t play a lot of old games. I have several on my Steam account that work on Windows 10 but not 11.

Even games that do run on Windows 11 perform worse than period correct hardware. I have several Windows XP and Windows 98 gaming systems for this reason.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

In the end all of this doesn’t really matter. Most of the arguments people have about Mac do not make sense.

“It’s too difficult to develop”
PS3 was very difficult and it did just fine

It didn't do just fine though. Sony lost billions on the PS3 and had to go through numerous layoffs and restructures in order to stay afloat. They wanted to have multiple different products running Cell, but because of how bad the PS3 was doing it ended up becoming the only Cell based product they ever shipped. They almost considered getting out of video games completely with how bad the PS3 was doing initially. Sony was already giving a post mortem report on the console just three years into it's life. When people were buying a PS3 they were buying it for the exclusives, while Xbox 360 was still considered the place for third parties since games ran miles better on 360 than PS3. The problem was so bad third party games that were originally historically PlayStation exclusives like Kingdom Hearts, Devil May Cry, and the Final Fantasy series began getting day in date releases on Xbox just because there were loads more people on that console than on PS3.

When everything was all said and done in 2013 while they did overtake Xbox in units sold, they had lost so much money and laid off so many employees to get that achievement, money that they themselves admitted they may never be able to recoup the costs of. And this isn't even factoring in other problems PS3 had, like how barebones the online functionality was at launch, the infamous 2011 PSN Hack which to this day is still the largest data breach in history, the scandal of the OtherOS feature being removed, and the fact the damn thing originally cost $599 in the year 2006. It wasn't until the $299 PS3 Slim released in September 2009 that things started to slowly turn around

It's why when designing the PS4 they decided to go into a different direction, making it x86 and as easy to develop for as possible, taking feedback from developers of what they wanted. One such quote was Randy Pitchford of Gearbox saying "if you don't have 8gb of RAM, it's dead" and they took that literally and had 8gb of RAM in the PS4, which caused the crowd of developers to fill the room with loud cheering at that news.

 

[MRMSFC]

Early on there was plenty of "PS3 has no games" memes.

Ah, memories.

Apple hasn't done the work to make the Mac an attractive platform for game developers. It's extra work for a pittance of extra sales.

It's not just the 32 bit drop. Apple dropped Classic support with Leopard/Intel, so 1984-2000ish era games became unplayable, they dropped PPC support cutting off early OS X titles, then the 32 bit drop. And I wouldn't be surprised if they drop the depreciated OpenGL support in the near future or Intel support. They have a reputation for doing it repeatedly. Sure, not every Windows XP game works on Windows 11 but it's a great many more than early Mac OS X games

I’m not sure that’s the correct way to look at the situation.

For example, when our family computer went from a Windows 98 machine to a Vista one, some of my older games wouldn’t work on the new OS. (Which baffled me as a child)

And as you’ve said yourself, breaking compatibility isn’t new to Windows either.

But the 600 pound gorilla in the room is that Windows then and now is dominant.

If the situation was the reverse, we wouldn’t have a problem with Apple dropping support because by force of market share the game developers would have to update with them, or stop selling games on that platform. (We see this with iOS, which is even more draconian than MacOS)

I think the “breaking compatibility hurts developers” argument has always been overblown. The issue always seems to boil down to Apple not having enough marketshare for developers to recoup costs on porting.
(Which, coincidentally, these changes in architecture are happening while budgets for games have been skyrocketing, since the PS3/360 era even)

Linux gaming with Nvidia is really not that bad. AMD is better, but I'd wager it's better than macOS.

I agree, but this has more to do with Valve throwing themselves at the problem than anything inherent to Linux.

 

[MRMSFC]

Again it’s just abandonware. Do you really expect Apple Silicon to be able to play 1984 games?

Well, it can but through third party emulation. I ran old versions of MacOS and even XP through UTM, and my only issue was getting.iso files to be recognized.

Not even PS5 can play some PS3 games. Let alone PS2 and PS1.

The PS2 is hard to emulate even on powerful PCs because it had a lot of specialized components that programs could offload work to iirc.

 

[diamond.g]

Ah, memories.

I’m not sure that’s the correct way to look at the situation.

For example, when our family computer went from a Windows 98 machine to a Vista one, some of my older games wouldn’t work on the new OS. (Which baffled me as a child)

And as you’ve said yourself, breaking compatibility isn’t new to Windows either.

But the 600 pound gorilla in the room is that Windows then and now is dominant.

If the situation was the reverse, we wouldn’t have a problem with Apple dropping support because by force of market share the game developers would have to update with them, or stop selling games on that platform. (We see this with iOS, which is even more draconian than MacOS)

I think the “breaking compatibility hurts developers” argument has always been overblown. The issue always seems to boil down to Apple not having enough marketshare for developers to recoup costs on porting.
(Which, coincidentally, these changes in architecture are happening while budgets for games have been skyrocketing, since the PS3/360 era even)


I agree, but this has more to do with Valve throwing themselves at the problem than anything inherent to Linux.

Games are getting more expensive because flashy graphics costs a bunch. Which is why UE5's ability to use straight megascans geometry with nanite was so impressive.

 

[Ethosik]

It didn't do just fine though. Sony lost billions on the PS3 and had to go through numerous layoffs and restructures in order to stay afloat. They wanted to have multiple different products running Cell, but because of how bad the PS3 was doing it ended up becoming the only Cell based product they ever shipped. They almost considered getting out of video games completely with how bad the PS3 was doing initially. Sony was already giving a post mortem report on the console just three years into it's life. When people were buying a PS3 they were buying it for the exclusives, while Xbox 360 was still considered the place for third parties since games ran miles better on 360 than PS3. The problem was so bad third party games that were originally historically PlayStation exclusives like Kingdom Hearts, Devil May Cry, and the Final Fantasy series began getting day in date releases on Xbox just because there were loads more people on that console than on PS3.

When everything was all said and done in 2013 while they did overtake Xbox in units sold, they had lost so much money and laid off so many employees to get that achievement, money that they themselves admitted they may never be able to recoup the costs of. And this isn't even factoring in other problems PS3 had, like how barebones the online functionality was at launch, the infamous 2011 PSN Hack which to this day is still the largest data breach in history, the scandal of the OtherOS feature being removed, and the fact the damn thing originally cost $599 in the year 2006. It wasn't until the $299 PS3 Slim released in September 2009 that things started to slowly turn around

It's why when designing the PS4 they decided to go into a different direction, making it x86 and as easy to develop for as possible, taking feedback from developers of what they wanted. One such quote was Randy Pitchford of Gearbox saying "if you don't have 8gb of RAM, it's dead" and they took that literally and had 8gb of RAM in the PS4, which caused the crowd of developers to fill the room with loud cheering at that news.

It certainly got more than 5 games like the Mac gets.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

It certainly got more than 5 games like the Mac gets.

Because they got their own studios making high quality AAA exclusives for their platform. Maybe Apple should invest in creating some first party games to incentivize people to get Macs and iPhones over Windows PCs. Microsoft has game their own game studios, so why not Apple too?

 

[Irishman]

- Valve is private, there are no stocks to buy

- to be perfectly fair, I have heard so much praise for the Steam Deck that I don’t see an issue with his praise of it specifically.

- I am perturbed that any criticism of Valve is denied or deflected though. To an absurd degree.

But he could be an employee. It would explain why his one answer to every question is the same.

 

[MRMSFC]

Because they got their own studios making high quality AAA exclusives for their platform. Maybe Apple should invest in creating some first party games to incentivize people to get Macs and iPhones over Windows PCs. Microsoft has game their own game studios, so why not Apple too?

It’s not profitable for indie developers to release ports of Mac games, why on earth would it be profitable for Apple to develop AAA titles and release them on Mac exclusively?

That’s got to be the worst idea I’ve seen.

 

[MRMSFC]

But he could be an employee. It would explain why his one answer to every question is the same.

I think he’s just a rabid fan, employees wouldn’t defend their employers this aggressively.

 

[diamond.g]

It’s not profitable for indie developers to release ports of Mac games, why on earth would it be profitable for Apple to develop AAA titles and release them on Mac exclusively?

That’s got to be the worst idea I’ve seen.

There has to be some money in it, otherwise there would be no games on Mac at all.

 

[MRMSFC]

There has to be some money in it, otherwise there would be no games on Mac at all.

I’m going off statements by game developers I have seen.

And in the context of the history of games on Mac, at best we’ve got ports later than the initial release of a game (post 90’s that is). I can’t even name a big Mac exclusive game since Marathon.

And that was when game development was mostly small studios.

In the context of modern huge AAA titles, that may cost millions to make and support, exclusivity to a platform that makes up less than 20% of the entire PC market, and has a demographic not guaranteed to be gamers, seems like a huge waste of money.

Realistically, how many PC gamers would go out and buy a Mac, that at minimum costs $600, to spend another $60 on a single game (or more depending on how many exclusives are released)? And that assumes the game is a 10/10 amazing title that runs acceptably on M1 hardware.

I just don’t see how it could possibly bump Mac sales enough to recoup costs.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

It’s not profitable for indie developers to release ports of Mac games, why on earth would it be profitable for Apple to develop AAA titles and release them on Mac exclusively?

That’s got to be the worst idea I’ve seen.

You want people to buy your platform, you need a killer app. That's where first party exclusives come into play, games made by the platform holder to entice purchases and show off what their platform can do. People buy Nintendo consoles despite how horribly underpowered Nintendo's systems are and the company's constant bad practices because they're the only place you can (legally) play Nintendo's games. Sony's exclusives are what saved the PS3 and saved it's legacy, games like the Uncharted series, Little Big Planet, Killzone 2 and 3, Ratchet & Clank Future A Crack in Time, Gran Turismo 5, and biggest of all The Last of Us redeemed the console. A lot of people bought PS3s just to play The Last of Us because of how big that game was and the fact at the time you could only play it on PlayStation.

Look at Xbox in comparison. That console is always outsold by PlayStation 2:1, and the #1 reason people give to why they bought a PlayStation over an Xbox is simple: It has no exclusive games to encourage purchasing over a PlayStation that has more exclusive games.

So Apple making good first party games would encourage people to actually buy their computers and phones over Windows and Android since that would be the only place you could play those games. You know Halo Combat Evolved was originally gonna be a Mac exclusive. Imagine how differently the gaming landscape would've been had it remained a Mac exclusive. That game being exclusive would've catapulted the Mac into a gaming juggernaut over Pentium PCs as millions would've bought PowerMacs just to play Halo. We could've had the Mac Master Race. Makes you ask...

 

[diamond.g]

Does anyone think Foundation could be a fun 4X game?

 

[Ethosik]

It’s not profitable for indie developers to release ports of Mac games, why on earth would it be profitable for Apple to develop AAA titles and release them on Mac exclusively?

That’s got to be the worst idea I’ve seen.

Also large AAA studios put in as low effort as possible for PC ports. Even taking years to get. Hello where is Horizon Forbidden West and God of War Ragnarok on PC? Work just recently STARTED on Final Fantasy 16 on PC. Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth won’t be on PC for a while either. If it takes this long for Windows to get some stuff it should be no surprise that Macs get even less.

And when we do get console ports it’s often the cheapest way possible. Lack of graphics options, performance issues, system requirements that require FSR or DLSS to achieve high resolution (1080p or 1440) and frame rates.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

A new Mac game just released today: Warhammer 40k Rogue Trader

This is a Warhammer 40K Isometric RPG where you play as a Rogue Trader that you create. In the Warhammer 40K universe, Rogue Traders are freelance explorers, conquistadors, and interstellar merchants for the Imperium of Man. Your task, to explore the unexplored reaches of space and bring back anything useful. They are explorers, dipomats, merchants, and even warlords.

What's unique about Rogue Traders, is they don't need to follow the standard rules of the Imperium. You can of course be the standard symbol of the Imperium, spreading the Emperor's will and purging the heretics, or you can just be a savior of the galaxy helping those in need, a rarity in the 41st Millenium in a galaxy that knows only war. Or just straight up be a pirate, conquering planets and ships for your own material gain. Many Rogue Traders have Xenos among their ranks as a symbol of defiance just to show they can.

What kind of Rogue Trader you will be...is up to you. And of course Rogue Traders ally with anyone and everyone, from regular detachments of Imperial Guardsmen, to the Tech Priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus, to the Sisters of Battle in the Adepta Sororitas, to Xenos like Tau Fire Warriors, and sometimes even Space Marines. Rogue Traders are a unique lot in the 40k universe, and an unexplorered setting for a 40k game.

 

[Plutonius]

In the end, I don't think that we would see many changes in the gaming landscape even if Apple satisfied the request listed in this thread.

It's all about market share and developers will still put their resources into developing games with the greatest return on investment. There is also a large cost (manpower and money) supporting the games over the game's lifetime.

Likewise, Apple is focused on return of investment and is going to put their resources into what makes them money. Buying a game company to develop games for Apple is going to lose them lots of money (definitely in the short / medium term and almost definitely in the long term).

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

In the end, I don't think that we would see many changes in the gaming landscape even if Apple satisfied the request listed in this thread.

It's all about market share and developers will still put their resources into developing games with the greatest return on investment. There is also a large cost (manpower and money) supporting the games over the game's lifetime.

Likewise, Apple is focused on return of investment and is going to put their resources into what makes them money. Buying a game company to develop games for Apple is going to lose them lots of money (definitely in the short / medium term and almost definitely in the long term).

All the more reason a system wide compatibility layer is the best and most realistic option for Mac Gaming, just as it did for Linux Gaming. We have the layer already. All it would take is changes to the license and refinements to the layer overtime to make the loss in performance less and less to the point it's nonexistent, just like with Linux.

 

[MRMSFC]

You want people to buy your platform, you need a killer app. That's where first party exclusives come into play, games made by the platform holder to entice purchases and show off what their platform can do. People buy Nintendo consoles despite how horribly underpowered Nintendo's systems are and the company's constant bad practices because they're the only place you can (legally) play Nintendo's games. Sony's exclusives are what saved the PS3 and saved it's legacy, games like the Uncharted series, Little Big Planet, Killzone 2 and 3, Ratchet & Clank Future A Crack in Time, Gran Turismo 5, and biggest of all The Last of Us redeemed the console. A lot of people bought PS3s just to play The Last of Us because of how big that game was and the fact at the time you could only play it on PlayStation.

Look at Xbox in comparison. That console is always outsold by PlayStation 2:1, and the #1 reason people give to why they bought a PlayStation over an Xbox is simple: It has no exclusive games to encourage purchasing over a PlayStation that has more exclusive games.

Those are all consoles, buyers of consoles are guaranteed to be interested in games, the same cannot be said for Mac.

Those consoles also cost less than a Mac in the first place.

You’re ignoring several parts of the argument.

So Apple making good first party games would encourage people to actually buy their computers and phones over Windows and Android since that would be the only place you could play those games.

Do me a favor, go to a LTT video that mentions Apple and read some comments.

You will see an avalanche of negativity.

That’s the primary demographic that in this scenario, you are trying to reach.

Even if a single title is truly amazing, do you think those individuals are going to drop at least $600 to play it? Or several thousand to play it at high settings?

 

[diamond.g]

Those are all consoles, buyers of consoles are guaranteed to be interested in games, the same cannot be said for Mac.

Those consoles also cost less than a Mac in the first place.

You’re ignoring several parts of the argument.

Do me a favor, go to a LTT video that mentions Apple and read some comments.

You will see an avalanche of negativity.

That’s the primary demographic that in this scenario, you are trying to reach.

Even if a single title is truly amazing, do you think those individuals are going to drop at least $600 to play it? Or several thousand to play it at high settings?

Out of curiosity are you in the "Apple should buy Nintendo" camp?

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Basically is is a marketshare question/problem (yet again).

I genuinely would like to know the reason beyond having to recreate the code for metal/different APIs.

It isn't market share per se as other platforms (such as the aforementioned Steam Deck) have infinitesimal market share by comparison. It isn't capability as most standard GPUs included in basic windows laptops can run most games (at a poor level--to be sure but they still run) and any M1 mac as more GPU output than those machines.

So what is it? Why did I need another gaming laptop with a 4060 in it to go with my mac? I would love to only have to have a mac. (smart card connecting to Azure Virtual Desktop ARM issues aside...)

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Out of curiosity are you in the "Apple should buy Nintendo" camp?

I AM! That would solve all of their problems honestly. But there is no way the pride of Japan would ever sell to Apple.