Marco Arment Argues the 2012—2015 MacBook Pro is 'Best Laptop That Has Ever Existed'

[MrW0rdsw0rth]

I do often think about a 2015/2017 hybrid MacBook Pro. Mainly it’s the 2015 design with all the ports and MagSafe only thunderbolt 2 has been replaced with thunderbolt 3 and it has the 2016 larger trackpad. Maybe the touch bar too. I don’t know, haven’t used one for more than a few seconds. Give me an Nvidia graphics card and the latest intel processor and wow, that thing would be amazing

 

[JDW]

How so? It didn’t have the IO bandwidth, had slower processors, and the same or less RAM, with a slower SSD to boot.

To even reply to your question is largely in vain because you just don’t get it. It’s not about performance.

Every good notebook that calls itself a “pro“ machine should have a built-in SD card slot and at least one USB-A port so that dongles are largely not required. And yes, the 15" Retina MacBook Pro is large enough to accommodate those two needed features in the sides while at the same time accommodating 4 USB-C ports too.

The loss of MagSafe is huge, and the battery is undersized, especially when you consider that the Touch Bar now draws extra power.

No matter how many times I play around with that new keyboard, I hate it.

The iconic glowing Apple logo on the back is gone. And the trackpad is now so large that it requires imperfect palm rejection software to make it somewhat usable, although the Arrow pointer still jiggles from time to time. And despite the large size of the trackpad you still can’t use the Apple Pencil on it!

Lighter weight, narrower bezels, louder speakers, better performance and even TouchID (which I would like to have) are not enough to persuade owners of the 2015 edition 15" rMBP (like me) that the late 2016 and newer models are fabulously better.

 

[typicaluser]

I have not used the new MacBook Pro, but I heard a pro user who bought one with touch bar say that he should have opted for the 2015 model after finding touch bar useless and performance disappointing. To me, the MagSafe connector is invaluable and I am so confused by apple's decision to remove it.

 

[J.Dillinger]

I’ve been using a 15” 2016 MBP for a few months when my employer upgraded me. My only gripe is the trackpad is enormous and gets in the way of resting hands which causes a poor UX experience (I still haven’t adapted). The keyboard keys are also entirely too loud when pressed.

Embracing USB-C was an adjustment and I do think a cable would have been a nice add for a top dollar laptop but it’s wonderful plugging in one cable when I arrived at the office. I love the speeds..time machine backups, syncing music to my phone, and super fast charging. The removal of the startup chime was a huge welcome as was the removal of the front-side lit up Apple Logo. Super thin, sick battery life, and the touch bar I can take it or leave it. I welcome Face ID down the road. The MBP is still in transition to being more refined.

 

[kuwxman]

He’s not totally wrong. It’s the same reason I purchased a ‘15 model over the newer MBPs. The new ones lack ports. Huge, huge deal killer.

On my current MBP, I’ve got two USB-A, two Thunderbolt, HDMI, MicroSD and MagSafe.

 

[Altis]

I'll take my current MBP any day.

USB-C means a single port to connect every device. No need for a different cable for networking, different for monitor, different for power, different for external hard drive, different for RAID.......

I know it's a good way forward, but I fail to see how it improves anything really.

Instead of plugging in each device to the appropriate port, you just plug them all into USB-C. Either way, all your stuff gets plugged in.

However, MagSafe is lost as a result and there's the chance that you need to connect to something that you're unable to for want of a dongle.

 

[JosephAW]

Yes I love my Mid 2012 MBP 15" with all those default ports and no dongles. Only wished they hadn't discontinued the 17" option.

 

[KPOM]

To even reply to your question is largely in vain because you just don’t get it. It’s not about performance.

Every good notebook that calls itself a “pro“ machine should have a built-in SD card slot and at least one USB-A port so that dongles are largely not required. And yes, the 15" Retina MacBook Pro is large enough to accommodate those two needed features in the sides while at the same time accommodating 4 USB-C ports too.

The loss of MagSafe is huge, and the battery is undersized, especially when you consider that the Touch Bar now draws extra power.

No matter how many times I play around with that new keyboard, I hate it.

The iconic glowing Apple logo on the back is gone. And the trackpad is now so large that it requires imperfect palm rejection software to make it somewhat usable, although the Arrow pointer still jiggles from time to time. And despite the large size of the trackpad you still can’t use the Apple Pencil on it!

Lighter weight, narrower bezels, louder speakers, better performance and even TouchID (which I would like to have) are not enough to persuade owners of the 2015 edition 15" rMBP (like me) that the late 2016 and newer models are fabulously better.

Since when is “pro” defined by the number of legacy ports supported? What’s wrong with being a little forward looking and imposing a cost to connect with the past? The future is largely wireless and Apple wants to push that along.

I hear you on the smaller battery.

I have the 13” and have never had a problem with the touchpad or the Touch Bar.
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I know it's a good way forward, but I fail to see how it improves anything really.

Instead of plugging in each device to the appropriate port, you just plug them all into USB-C. Either way, all your stuff gets plugged in.

However, MagSafe is lost as a result and there's the chance that you need to connect to something that you're unable to for want of a dongle.

On the flip side it means no more proprietary cables. MagSafe was nice but Apple cables are notoriously poorly made. Perhaps a more accurate statement is that MagSafe required compromises. Too heavy a gauge wire and the magnet would fall off or have to be stronger (partly defeating the purpose of MagSafe). Now it’s an industry standard power cable. Plus you can plug it in on either side on the Touch Bar models. I am surprised Apple hasn’t made an optional official MagSafe USB-C power cable, though. Seems like a lost opportunity.

 

[faded_glory]

In other news, Rolls Royce owners squabble over which year saw the best version.

 

[KPOM]

I have not used the new MacBook Pro, but I heard a pro user who bought one with touch bar say that he should have opted for the 2015 model after finding touch bar useless and performance disappointing. To me, the MagSafe connector is invaluable and I am so confused by apple's decision to remove it.

Maybe a desire to move away from proprietary parts.

As for performance, the 2015 model isn’t any faster. It’s slower, actually.

 

[JDW]

Since when is “pro” defined by the number of legacy ports supported?

Since the day that many pros began EXPECTING such ports to be present on a $4500 notebook named "pro." Just because I can buy a dongle to achieve what I once could do without a dongle doesn't mean I should be eager and happy about buying dongles. Imagine if you will that I go out on a job with my rMBP, only to find I forgot my USB-A dongle and/or SD card dongle and have no quick means to buy one on the spot? When you are in that kind of pinch, you start thinking, "What did my $4500 get me again?" With regard to the late 2016 and 2017 rMBP, it gets you in a world of hurt sometimes.

The fact remains that if Apple wanted to GUT a computer, they still have the MacBook and MacBook AIR lines with which to do that. They had no compelling reason to GUT "pro" (expected) features from the high end MacBook Pro. People who don't need those features and want the thinnest and lightest machine possible could have easily been sent over to the MacBook or MacBook AIR, especially if Apple would cease from being stupid and just put a silly Retina display in the MacBook AIR, for crying out loud. Again, it makes no sense to strip the rMBP of an SD card slot and at least one legacy USB-A port, when all of that would easily fit into a 15" form-factor.

Johnny Ive recently said that the hardest part of his job is "saying no." Sadly, Steve Jobs is no longer around (ditto for Ive rival Scott Forstall) to tell Johnny Ive's minimalism "NO!" I like minimalism, but within limits.

 

[KPOM]

Johnny Ive recently said that the hardest part of his job is "saying no." Sadly, Steve Jobs is no longer around (ditto for Ive rival Scott Forstall) to tell Johnny Ive's minimalism "NO!" I like minimalism, but within limits.

Forstall was toxic once Steve Jobs was no longer there to keep him in check. As for Steve neither of us know what he would have done, but consider that he released a Mac with nothing but USB-A before there were any USB devices. He also didn’t think the user should ever open up the computer case. He generally had to be dragged along to support “pro” features like legacy ports.

 

[JDW]

Forstall was toxic once Steve Jobs was no longer there to keep him in check...

Oh, please... You've obviously have read little about how "toxic" some people thought Jobs was at various points in his career. You knock Forstall to defend Apple's status quo, but it was Steve Jobs who actually saved the man's life. You no doubt assume "there must have been a good reason to axe Forstall," but in fact Cook simply needed a fall guy for the Apple Maps debacle, and Forstall also was a bit too sassy with Ive and no doubt Ive let Tim Cook know it. But with Forstall gone, no one keeps Johnny Ive's minimalism in check -- not even Cook, who doesn't micromanage Apple like Steve Jobs did. Remember that Steve Jobs loved skeuomorphism but Ive hated it, which is the main reason it's gone now. Scott Forstall was the closest thing to Steve Jobs in human flesh. That's objective truth, not worship of the man. Regardless, Ive needs someone to tell him NO now and then.

 

[Mr. Dee]

If I was buying my first MacBook Pro now, I likely would have adjusted just fine to the 2016/2017 models. That said, I do love my Early 2015 MBP 13 inch. Its just the right amount of compromise. I still had to invest in a thunderbolt Ethernet adapter because the Internet Cafe I got weekly doesn't have Wi-Fi and the occasional move files from Windows desktop. Apart from that, what the new models offer, I could live with.

But that keyboard making me appreciate what I have even more. I'm sorry, I've tried and I just don't like it. I plan to spend some more time playing with it next year to see if I could get use to it. My next upgrade though is likely to be another Mac, but my Broadwell doing just fine, so I don't see myself in the market until 2020. Word, iTunes, Firefox, Photoshop don't require too much these days.

 

[KPOM]

Oh, please... You've obviously have read little about how "toxic" some people thought Jobs was at various points in his career. You knock Forstall to defend Apple's status quo, but it was Steve Jobs who actually saved the man's life. You no doubt assume "there must have been a good reason to axe Forstall," but in fact Cook simply needed a fall guy for the Apple Maps debacle, and Forstall also was a bit to sassy with Ive. But with Forstall gone, no one keeps Johnny Ive's minimalism in check -- not even Cook, who doesn't micromanage Apple like Steve Jobs did. Remember that Steve Jobs loved skeuomorphism but Ive hated it, which is the main reason it's gone now. Scott Forstall was the closest thing to Steve Jobs in human flesh. That's objective truth, not worship of the man. Regardless, Ive needs someone to tell him NO now and then.

Forstall wouldn’t sign the apology letter. He was head of Maps. Yes, Tim Cook doesn’t micromanage. So when Forstall says Maps is ready to go, it had better be ready. Most good CEOs are not micromanagers.

Anyway, whether or not Steve Jobs liked green felt in apps doesn’t speak to whether he’d be OK with a notebook that dropped legacy ports.

 

[JDW]

Forstall wouldn’t sign the apology letter... Most good CEOs are not micromanagers.

Listen to yourself! I know you are happy to plod on with lambasting Scott Forstall, but what you are arguing is basically a slap in the face to Steve Jobs' managerial style. Steve Jobs wasn't your typical CEO, nor was Scott Forstall a typical manager or engineer. A lot of Apple people are atypical, so we really cannot compare them with other companies.

THE FACT REMAINS that no one is left at Apple to keep Johnny Ive's minimalism in check. If there was, we'd still have an SD card slot and at least 1 USB-A port in a $4500 notebook labeled "pro" from Apple. Indeed, we might even have the much wanted 17" rMBP too.

 

[KPOM]

Listen to yourself! I know you are happy to plod on with lambasting Scott Forstall, but what you are arguing is basically a slap in the face to Steve Jobs' managerial style. Steve Jobs wasn't your typical CEO, nor was Scott Forstall a typical manager or engineer. A lot of Apple people are atypical, so we really cannot compare them with other companies.

THE FACT REMAINS that no one is left at Apple to keep Johnny Ive's minimalism in check. If there was, we'd still have an SD card slot and at least 1 USB-A port in a $4500 notebook labeled "pro" from Apple. Indeed, we might even have the much wanted 17" rMBP too.

I get it. Tim Cook isn’t Steve Jobs. I don’t expect him to be.

Jony Ive has been stepping away for quite a while. His focus has been on other things such as the stores, and he has turned over the day to day operations of design to others. We have seen iOS evolve from the stark iOS 7. And it’s totally Apple to change ports around. Look at FireWire 2. Mini DVI to mDP. Thunderbolt meant the end of FireWire ports (they sold a clunky adapter for a while).

I think Apple assumed that third parties would rush in more quickly than they did. They did wait over a year from the MacBook launch to introduce the Pro. Granted the design was set a long time ago. But Apple spent much of the MacBook rollout event lauding USB-C and how it was the future. “One port that does everything.” Absolutely no one should have been surprised by the Pro with all USB-C ports (with TB3 being the Pro feature).

 

[makinao]

To even reply to your question is largely in vain because you just don’t get it. It’s not about performance.

Trying desperately to scrape myself off the floor after laughing soooooo hard.

 

[KPOM]

“You need to keep all these legacy ports in” is something I just can’t envision Steve Jobs ever saying.

 

[JDW]

...Apple spent much of the MacBook rollout event lauding USB-C and how it was the future. “One port that does everything.”

And it will continue to be "a future thing" until USB-C becomes as ubiquitous as USB-A, which I doubt will happen for at least another 5 years, and is why Apple should have made rMBP machines during this change-over time "BRIDGE" machines, bridging today's USB-A with tomorrow's USB-C. And as I've repeatedly pointed out, there's plenty of room on the 15" rMBP to accomplish that simple and inexpensive feat.

USB-A really cannot be compared with Firewire or other proprietary connectivity which wasn't really used by the entire planet like USB-A presently is.

Again, this is the MacBook PRO, not the AIR, not the MacBook. People who own a late 2016 or later rMBP 15" and who are happy with it would probably be just as happy if Apple had put a Retina display in the MacBook AIR and sold them that instead. And that, my friends, is where Apple screwed up royally. They should have gutted the AIR and MacBook lines while leaving more features (important "bridge" features) in the upper end "Pro" machine.
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“You need to keep all these legacy ports in” is something I just can’t envision Steve Jobs ever saying.

In that case, you probably can't understand why Steve Jobs kept Apple engineers designing skeuomorphic UI elements. Steve Job boldly trashed what he considered "old tech" but he didn't throw out all that old tech at once.

 

[makinao]

I remember the original iMac had only two USB ports. No serial, parallel, or SCSI ports. People complained then too, but not for long.

 

[KPOM]

And it will continue to be "a future thing" until USB-C becomes as ubiquitous as USB-A, which I doubt will happen for at least another 5 years, and is why Apple should have made rMBP machines during this change-over time "BRIDGE" machines, bridging today's USB-A with tomorrow's USB-C. And as I've repeatedly pointed out, there's plenty of room on the 15" rMBP to accomplish that simple and inexpensive feat.

USB-A really cannot be compared with Firewire or other proprietary connectivity which wasn't really used by the entire planet like USB-A presently is.

Again, this is the MacBook PRO, not the AIR, not the MacBook. People who own a late 2016 or later rMBP 15" and who are happy with it would probably be just as happy if Apple had put a Retina display in the MacBook AIR and sold them that instead. And that, my friends, is where Apple screwed up royally. They should have gutted the AIR and MacBook lines while leaving more features (important "bridge" features) in the upper end "Pro" machine.

It won’t become ubiquitous unless more companies start using it exclusively. Most “pro” machines have 1 USB-C port that sits unused.

Anyway, the adapter approach is fine in theory. I’d accept an argument that Apple could have executed it better. Apple should have made more than rudimentary adapters, for instance. They should have made a USB-C to mDP adapter. They perhaps should have made an all-in-one hub like the portable one I occasionally use. Or given Belkin and others more advance notice and encouragement to so the same. Putting a port in there because there is room isn’t a great argument. There is nothing the legacy ports support that the new ports can’t.

 

[Hanson Eigilson]

Forstall wouldn’t sign the apology letter. He was head of Maps. Yes, Tim Cook doesn’t micromanage. So when Forstall says Maps is ready to go, it had better be ready. Most good CEOs are not micromanagers.

Anyway, whether or not Steve Jobs liked green felt in apps doesn’t speak to whether he’d be OK with a notebook that dropped legacy ports.

It seems like apple is filled with yes-men now, nobody dares saying:
1)NO don't drop support for 95% of the ports in use today even if USB-C IS a future utopia, people deserve to be well supported on all apple platforms to get their work done effectively TODAY.
2)NO don't "embrace the notch" no part of the notch area is usable for apps keep it for battery and other indicators, instead we get a tasteless mess.
3)NO, just no, not ever, to the touchbar it's a sad tacky gimmick, do not do it EVEN if you can market it to fools for a few years.
4)NO don't put in that questionable keyboard across the line, let it stay in macbook12" and see if it actually works for heavier workloads.
etc etc.

I used to think that Apple would be committed to it's core fans and spend it's energy to provide unrivaled quality, usability and style. Now it seems to me they are willing to market anything that can increase their stock value right now with no regard for long term brand value, reputation and community.

 

[JDW]

I remember the original iMac had only two USB ports. No serial, parallel, or SCSI ports. People complained then too, but not for long.

You fail to mention that the iMac, which first came out in August 1998, is a DESKTOP machine, not a NOTEBOOK. Can you please tell me when the first Apple notebook came on the scene with only USB ports? Think about it. We're talking about notebooks here, and in particular, Apple's highest end PRO notebook.
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Putting a port in there because there is room isn’t a great argument. There is nothing the legacy ports support that the new ports can’t.

Putting a legacy USB-A port in there has merit as such would eliminate a dongle or adapter. Furthermore, we are not just talking about USB-A here. The loss of the SD card slot is big. Don't underestimate it simply because you are happy to achieve that feature via Dongle.

 

[KPOM]

You fail to mention that the iMac, which first came out in August 1998, is a DESKTOP machine, not a NOTEBOOK. Can you please tell me when the first Apple notebook came on the scene with only USB ports? Think about it. We're talking about notebooks here, and in particular, Apple's highest end PRO notebook.
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Putting a legacy USB-A port in there has merit as such would eliminate a dongle or adapter. Furthermore, we are not just talking about USB-A here. The loss of the SD card slot is big. Don't underestimate it simply because you are happy to achieve that feature via Dongle.

What is your issue with adapters? TB3 has more bandwidth. Had they left USB-A and SD then likely they would have only 2 TB3. And you’d still complain about needing an adapter for DP or HDMI. And don’t get me started with Ethernet. When the “best Mac ever” came out in 2012 all the “pros” were complaining about needing an adapter because “pros use Ethernet.”

Not many “pros” need all the legacy ports. Maybe you need SD. Someone else needs HDMI. Someone else needs TB2 (though Intel had always wanted to use the USB standard for the TB port - the USBIF wouldn’t let them until USB-C).