Massive quake hits Japan 9.0 Magnitude

[Don't panic]

AFTER which they brought in water canons; meaning water canons must be more desperate, right?

Water must enter from the top, so it seems self-explanatory to use a helicopter...100 drops were planned but the wind was a major factor to ceasing that operation.

puma,
it's exactly the fact that they only did 4 drops, claimed that "it worked" and then stopped doing them that is puzzling.
futhermore, it is exactly because we do realize how inherently difficult it is to get the water into the pool, that the measure itself sounds a desperate last resort kind of approach, which it is (otherwise the buildings would have been designed with 'roof funnels' or easily blowable weak-spot areas in the correct position, to facilitate such an approach)

for that approach to work they obviously needed tens if not hundreds of drops, and even with the wind, it doesn't make any sense to stop doing them if they think they are having any effect.
Even the water that does not get right into the pool (the overwhelming majority), but hits the structure would probably contribute a little to cooling down the area, which can only help.

and if the situation is not fully 'out of control', it is clearly not 'in control' either.
some of the decision making has been questionable: i have read articles (by experts) that immediately identified the holding pools as potentially the largest danger, because they lack the built-in safety mechanism the reactor has. yet it was initially dismissed, an no pumps/joses were set in places to prevent that to become a problem, until it became a problem and local radiation are too high to go there directly.

finally please, don't generalize the wild comments of one poster for the approach -or knowledge- of everyone else in the thread.

 

[rasmasyean]

<expert ranting...>

Even if the clothes were dry, most bodies are mangled in wreckage, and stiff, so it's not exactly like pulling a shirt off someone laying in the middle of the street.

<more expert ranting...>

Hello??? It gets cold at night too so why would someone have waited till next week when it rained and snowed to salvage anything that can be used. I don't know about you, but if I (and fam/friends) was freezing to death and lots of sharp debri was arround, I wouldn't need to undress some rigormortis person like it was a delicate baby! You know that dead people are resources too! As a matter of fact, some plane crash survivors ate the dead! The ones who didn't...didn't make it in time to be rescued! omg! no way!

puma,
it's exactly the fact that they only did 4 drops, claimed that "it worked" and then stopped doing them that is puzzling.
futhermore, it is exactly because we do realize how inherently difficult it is to get the water into the pool, that the measure itself sounds a desperate last resort kind of approach, which it is (otherwise the buildings would have been designed with 'roof funnels' or easily blowable weak-spot areas in the correct position, to facilitate such an approach)

for that approach to work they obviously needed tens if not hundreds of drops, and even with the wind, it doesn't make any sense to stop doing them if they think they are having any effect.
Even the water that does not get right into the pool (the overwhelming majority), but hits the structure would probably contribute a little to cooling down the area, which can only help.

and if the situation is not fully 'out of control', it is clearly not 'in control' either.
some of the decision making has been questionable: i have read articles (by experts) that immediately identified the holding pools as potentially the largest danger, because they lack the built-in safety mechanism the reactor has. yet it was initially dismissed, an no pumps/joses were set in places to prevent that to become a problem, until it became a problem and local radiation are too high to go there directly.

finally please, don't generalize the wild comments of one poster for the approach -or knowledge- of everyone else in the thread.

All I know about this building design is that if I was a terrorist, I would know exactly what to crash a plane into now!

Anyways, here's another take on the "danger".

U.S. military detects more radiation
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/17/6290369-us-military-detects-more-radiation

 

[Don't panic]

All I know about this building design is that if I was a terrorist, I would know exactly what to crash a plane into now!

Anyways, here's another take on the "danger".

U.S. military detects more radiation
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/17/6290369-us-military-detects-more-radiation

if you were a terrorist, you would probably already have known that before.
Although it's true that the issue with the location/organization/potential danger of the spent fuel pools were not widely known to the general public before (like myself), the same infos were readily accessible to anyone who wanted to know.

 

[Rt&Dzine]

Are you sure he isn't already on the inside of the Japanese Government??

People connected with the nuclear industry might be a bit touchy because they see this a threat to the future of nuclear power and their livelihood.

 

[Don't panic]

People connected with the nuclear industry might be a bit touchy because they see this a threat to the future of nuclear power and their livelihood.

it's possible, but i have to sympathize at least a bit with puma, since he appears to be an expert in the field.
it can be frustrating to discuss arguments you really know a lot about with people that apparently do not, and it can become very hard to restrain oneself when the other people obviously have no clue.
Clearly it doesn't mean the 'expert' is always right and the 'non-expert' is always wrong, but i can see how one could come out a bit arrogant.

i know it drives me crazy when people argues creationism (or variants thereof) with elementary-school arguments 9if even that) and ignore the actual science over and over again. I now try to stay out of it (mostly) but sometimes it is really hard

 

[Rt&Dzine]

it's possible, but i have to sympathize at least a bit with puma, since he appears to be an expert in the field.

I agree. I try to get my insights from some of the experts who've been in the field awhile. By the same token, I get the information about the medical consequences from experts in that field, not nuclear engineers.

On another subject, a robot has joined the team—Red Monirobo. More to be deployed.

.

 

[rasmasyean]

I agree. I try to get my insights from some of the experts who've been in the field awhile. By the same token, I get the information about the medical consequences from experts in that field, not nuclear engineers.

On another subject, a robot has joined the team—Red Monirobo. More to be deployed.

.

I don't see him as an "expert". He just knows something about science and tries to use terms to appear an expert....or thinks he has authority just because he studied thermodynamics. For example: Maybe the "carnot cycle" would require a lot of diesel to be used but making some relatively small ice blocks will not "damage" a structure nor would it "miss" any more than mists of water going through the holes. On average you would prolly get more water through the holes because the wind doesn't blow it away. And why would a piece of ice have to stick to a fuel rod and use it's "contact surface area" to cool it? Maybe it can melt into the pool and melt in the water that's already in contact with the rod??? duh??

Considering it's so "safe" that the dangerous radiation levels radius now reaches INTO the "lock yourselves in and close the windows" zone...maybe it's more like words from some people have some nuclear interest.

 

[iJohnHenry]

it's possible, but i have to sympathize at least a bit with puma, since he appears to be an expert in the field.

Fair enough, but unless he is on the inside, he only knows what we know.

And I am reasonably confident that we are not getting the whole story.

 

[Big-TDI-Guy]

Yeah, it's a safe bet we will be watching a special on National Geographic 10 years from now saying "holy (@*$" they never mentioned that at all!

That said - they look to be making headway - I hope the road smooths out for these guys in the coming days.

 

[Rt&Dzine]

I don't see him as an "expert". He just knows something about science and tries to use terms to appear an expert....or thinks he has authority just because he studied thermodynamics. :

I didn't mean to imply whether he was an expert or not. I was referring to known experts in the field, preferably seasoned experts. Some of the analysis here is interesting but I wouldn't automatically take any of these anonymous postings as fact. We can't even trust TEPCO with their history of deceit.

 

[-aggie-]

It’s pretty painful to read all of these posts, since it became quite apparent after the reactor issues that those posting the most know the least about what they are talking about. Posters using terms like “spent rod pools” and “basins” tell me a lot. Those thinking the “roof” of the reactor being damaged means they’re going to have Chernobyl-type consequences from a meltdown and then posting crap like that are just showing their lack of knowledge. It’s sad, since I’d guess that many Americans think like this, as well. We’ve already had Clinton state we need to take a look at our energy strategy here in the U.S. (like she would know anything about nuclear power or even has any business making a comment). Obama has a knee-jerk reaction to all of this and now has asked the NRC to do a safety assessment of all reactors (the NRC has already done this, so I’m not sure what new type of assessment they can do). The U.S. was finally appearing to be going down the road to solving a lot of our energy issues with nuclear power. I fear with what has happened in Japan that the U.S. might do a 180 and renew the talk about wind power and other sources that won’t solve anything.

.

 

[takao]

Posters using terms like “spent rod pools” and “basins” tell me a lot.

that they are coming from an non-english speaking country for example (where basin is perfectly acceptable for a pool of water)

 

[iJohnHenry]

that they are coming from an non-english speaking country for example (where basin is perfectly acceptable for a pool of water)

I don't think that is the thrust of his post. He knows what a basin is.

But if what they really mean a cooling pool, why don't they just say so???

 

[rasmasyean]

It’s pretty painful to read all of these posts, since it became quite apparent after the reactor issues that those posting the most know the least about what they are talking about. Posters using terms like “spent rod pools” and “basins” tell me a lot. Those thinking the “roof” of the reactor being damaged means they’re going to have Chernobyl-type consequences from a meltdown and then posting crap like that are just showing their lack of knowledge. It’s sad, since I’d guess that many Americans think like this, as well. We’ve already had Clinton state we need to take a look at our energy strategy here in the U.S. (like she would know anything about nuclear power or even has any business making a comment). Obama has a knee-jerk reaction to all of this and now has asked the NRC to do a safety assessment of all reactors (the NRC has already done this, so I’m not sure what new type of assessment they can do). The U.S. was finally appearing to be going down the road to solving a lot of our energy issues with nuclear power. I fear with what has happened in Japan that the U.S. might do a 180 and renew the talk about wind power and other sources that won’t solve anything.

.

I don't think it will halt "nuclear progression" considering past accidents didn't stop it nor did blowing up 100,000 ppl with it nor dirty bomb theory scenarios. They will maybe consider underground reactors more or something. Or super robust redunance backups. It only adds a bit to the cost of what is the cheapest and most versatile power. Maybe they will simply have like a mountain of dirt nearby read to burry it immediately or something.

 

[iJohnHenry]

They will maybe consider underground reactors more or something.

Yes, the Krell had something like that, but the Id interfered.

Maybe they will simply have like a mountain of dirt nearby read to burry it immediately or something.

What??

 

[awmazz]

.

 

[puma1552]

Look I am not here to argue ... I see you are from Japan and I am following this story like glue. I am very concerned for the massive trauma your country is going through right now. ... I will say it again ... the whole situation has reached a level of desperation. Every country should be helping Japan right now.

I agree, I'm not here to argue either, that gets us nowhere...sorry if I sounded a little irate in my post, but again it's frustrating to discuss my field with people outside of my field, especially when it's such a technical one. I'm hoping things do improve, but I think if nothing else goes wrong, we are probably looking at a 3 week timeframe before things start to really improve.

No one really knows for sure what will happen. Hopefully this power line in will let them get the pumping system up to speed.

I agree, it was my wife's birthday yesterday so I haven't caught up since yesterday on the situation with the power line, last I checked they hadn't yet been able to restore it. Not sure if that's changed in the last 36 hours, but I'd wager it probably hasn't. The most we can do is hope that we've seen the worst of it, which I think we probably have.

Look, Puma1552, ever since the start of this thread, you've been arguing that this situation is nothing to worry about, that everything is well. Since you first started saying that, there have been multiple explosions and fires and various tactics tried and failed to resolve the situation. Clearly the situation is not in control, and there is much to worry about.

I'm not saying it's "under control" per se, but what I am saying that it isn't spiraling "out of control" where everyone needs to run for the hills. Despite the setbacks that have happened over the last week, the situation is not really much different than it was a week ago at this time in terms of radiation and safety; a slight increase, yes, but we are still below any danger threshold. I'd say it's mildly stable, in that they know what needs to be done, and they are aware of the issues they are facing, and have been innovative to the degree of using sea water, etc. as a logical source of cooling given the circumstances.

It's not going to be another Chernobyl, and none of the intelligent commenters in this thread have suggested that. However, there are still many values of 'bad' below the level of Chernobyl, which still can severely affect Japan.

We all in this thread are worried about Japan and want to support it, and also want to learn from this situation to avoid it happening again. Part of that learning is analysis and discussion.

I agree, but it's hard for me personally to sit back and watch even the uneducated run with misinformation, because they are the most vocal in spreading it to other people who may be equally uneducated in this area. My apologies.

puma,
it's exactly the fact that they only did 4 drops, claimed that "it worked" and then stopped doing them that is puzzling.

for that approach to work they obviously needed tens if not hundreds of drops, and even with the wind, it doesn't make any sense to stop doing them if they think they are having any effect.

Curious, where did you hear that the drops were effective? The TV here said that only one of the drops were effective in hitting the target, so they were stopped because they simply weren't working. I do believe CNN was reporting that also, if I'm not mistaken.

finally please, don't generalize the wild comments of one poster for the approach -or knowledge- of everyone else in the thread.

Fair enough, my apologies.

Hello??? It gets cold at night too so why would someone have waited till next week when it rained and snowed to salvage anything that can be used. I don't know about you, but if I (and fam/friends) was freezing to death and lots of sharp debri was arround, I wouldn't need to undress some rigormortis person like it was a delicate baby! You know that dead people are resources too! As a matter of fact, some plane crash survivors ate the dead! The ones who didn't...didn't make it in time to be rescued! omg! no way!

So at first you said that everyone should be ravaging the dead now because "everything is dried out by now" but now you are saying people shouldn't have waited a week and instead should have ravaged everyone when they were wearing sopping wet clothes? Which is it? Steal the sopping wet clothes right away when they are sopping wet, or wait a week til "everything's dried out"? I'm doubt that the top priority for all those people was finding out what the weather would be like in the coming days, and how it would even have affected their decisions to ravage clothes or not. See this is the kind of stuff that makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

I don't see him as an "expert". He just knows something about science and tries to use terms to appear an expert....or thinks he has authority just because he studied thermodynamics. For example: Maybe the "carnot cycle" would require a lot of diesel to be used but making some relatively small ice blocks will not "damage" a structure nor would it "miss" any more than mists of water going through the holes. On average you would prolly get more water through the holes because the wind doesn't blow it away. And why would a piece of ice have to stick to a fuel rod and use it's "contact surface area" to cool it? Maybe it can melt into the pool and melt in the water that's already in contact with the rod??? duh??

And there you go with the ice again, and again I'm reminded of my glass of Coke analogy.

 

[puma1552]

awmazz, ugh, just UGH.

You've made more personal attacks than anyone else in this thread.

I already said elsewhere that it would never be Chernobyl. I guess I have to connect the dots for you. Perhaps for your sole benefit I should've been more explicit:

This is not, and will not be a Chernobyl because the reactors aren't even the same kind--if it were even possible to have been Chernobyl, it would've been that several days ago, but it's not possible to be Chernobyl, and never was. Chernobyl was running at the time of a core explosion, and at several hundred times it's safe operating capacity. The situations are so different they aren't even comparable, so it was foolish for you to even suggest that it could be compared to Chernobyl, because if you had had a clue what you were actually talking about, you'd know that about the only thing the two situations have in common is the word "nucular". Little else is the same between the two circumstances. Are the dots connected for you now?

 

[Sydde]

Yes, the Krell had something like that, but the Id interfered.

I think we were supposed to stay away from that planet. It was, like, forbidden or something.

We’ve already had Clinton state we need to take a look at our energy strategy here in the U.S. (like she would know anything about nuclear power or even has any business making a comment). Obama has a knee-jerk reaction to all of this and now has asked the NRC to do a safety assessment of all reactors (the NRC has already done this, so I’m not sure what new type of assessment they can do). The U.S. was finally appearing to be going down the road to solving a lot of our energy issues with nuclear power. I fear with what has happened in Japan that the U.S. might do a 180...

I think you should probably do some real research on the matter before becoming guilty of what you have accused others of. The nuclear industry in the US has not been in a very good state at all since TMI. That solutions were finally on the horizon is not at all clear. All that is obvious is that contractors have been suckling at the DOE's tit while the construction and design phases have merged into a fog of setbacks, revisions, blueprint reviews, delays and cost overruns. The belief that progress was being made is about like waiting for the tooth fairy or positive-return fusion.

 

[Michaelgtrusa]

I'm still uncertain how bad this is due the cover up that's going on. It will be years before the public really know. Be thankfull for the web.

 

[Apple OC]

puma ... belated birthday wishes to your wife.

As I said very early in this thread ... this disaster will be contained and we will learn valuable lessons moving forward.

To the people that are not in Japan ... a little more compassion and less fear mongering would be nice.

to the people that are in Japan ... stay strong.

 

[puma1552]

Thank you on both counts, OP. I do think the end result of this situation will be good in terms of new discoveries being made in terms of areas this technology can be improved and bettered, as is generally the case with most technologies.

 

[-aggie-]

I think we were supposed to stay away from that planet. It was, like, forbidden or something.

I think you should probably do some real research on the matter before becoming guilty of what you have accused others of. The nuclear industry in the US has not been in a very good state at all since TMI. That solutions were finally on the horizon is not at all clear. All that is obvious is that contractors have been suckling at the DOE's tit while the construction and design phases have merged into a fog of setbacks, revisions, blueprint reviews, delays and cost overruns. The belief that progress was being made is about like waiting for the tooth fairy or positive-return fusion.

You have no idea how laughable this statement was. BTW, you’re seriously confused, if you’re mentioning DOE in your response.

And awmazz: Did I write that you wrote something about Chernobyl? But yeah, you can stop posting now. You’ve clearly removed any doubt as to whether you actually know anything about nuclear power.

Like I said. You may know atomics. I know people.

Atomics??? One of your many special posts in this thread.

 

[Sydde]

You have no idea how laughable this statement was.

Fine. You can live in your "too cheap to meter" nuclear fairy-tale, whilst I chew on the left-wing BS that is fed to me. And we will both be wrong, but so it goes.

 

[rasmasyean]

I agree. I try to get my insights from some of the experts who've been in the field awhile. By the same token, I get the information about the medical consequences from experts in that field, not nuclear engineers.

On another subject, a robot has joined the team—Red Monirobo. More to be deployed.

.

US bomb robots en route to japan...

Red Whittaker, one of the world's leading robotics experts, at the Carnegie Mellon Robotics Institute, said these robots are among the early deployments in what will be weeks, months, and years of robotic "work systems" being deployed in Japan...

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/18/6296110-robots-en-route-to-japan

Maybe this will be a proving ground that will spark some major investments in our promised personal robots. If it works out good, hopefully the governments will finally decide to put some massive funds into ground bots rather than just for military.