MBP keyboard driving us to Windows

[Falhófnir]

If you read the forums you'll come to see that there are/were all sorts of "rumors" we'll say that the 2017 keyboards were changed a bit over the 2016 models (though I believe that an iFixit teardown disputes or disproves this and it was just a keycap change to the option and control keys), but these keyboards are what are being put in the repaired ones.

I will be the first to admit that I bought the 2016 as soon as it was released, had some issues with sleep / wake with my LG UltraFine and ended up returning the machine and monitor as Apple hadn't sorted the problem. Now with my 2017(s) it's been relatively pain free. I'm not saying there isn't a problem with some machines at all, but I don't see Apple saying "we're sorry about the problem" until (and if) it reaches the level of the MacBook graphics card / anti-glare coating fiasco of a few years ago. Apple isn't faultless, that's for certain. But I don't think I've seen them not address an issue if it became large enough. What that number may or may not be no-one knows. I'm sure there is a cost-benefit analysis internally on it. At least, I would like to think so.

The thing is, a change doesn’t necessarily have to be visible - it could be as simple as subtly adjusting the tolerances of the mechanism, or making it from a slightly different plastic. So if there is no immediately apparent difference, it doesn’t mean they haven’t done something.

 

[csurfr]

The thing is, a change doesn’t necessarily have to be visible - it could be as simple as subtly adjusting the tolerances of the mechanism, or making it from a slightly different plastic. So if there is no immediately apparent difference, it doesn’t mean they haven’t done something.

You are absolutely correct. Well said.

 

[kasakka]

Surface book 2?

Not quite because I'd like to ditch the laptop part. I already carry a mechanical keyboard so I'd rather just have a tablet format computer with decent connectivity.

 

[smallcoffee]

OP makes 0 sense from a business perspective. Forcing Android uses to accept your Mac environment? What? This is a troll post.

 

[shaunp]

That statement couldn't be less true. Due to the competition it's always a race to the bottom with Windows laptops. They compete on price, not quality.

Apple's hardware is standardised and they use the same design for many, many years. This vastly helps quality and QA as any problems identified from redesigns are rectified.

In every single Windows laptop, premium or not, you will always find a compromise on build quality or components.

Not always. With the consumer brands, I agree it's a race to the bottom. If you look at the models intended for corporate use they tend to be a bit more expensive as quality and durability have to come first. Latidudes and ThinkPads aren't exactly cheap (compared to crap in supermarkets anyway), but they are definately cost effective compared to Macs. There are also quite a few premium offerings from Lenovo, Microsoft and Dell that are every bit as good as what Apple produce, sometimes even better.

And I don't buy the 'Mac's have a higher quality' argument any more. The only failures I've ever had have been on MacBook Pro's. A 2010 and a 2012 model. Both had GPU issues, that Apple wouldn't recognise, but later on had a replacement program for both models. Never had the same issue with any PC laptop.

Now for compromises, have a look at the X1 Carbon or the XPS 13 and tell me where these are compromised compared to the 13" MBP?

I'm sorry to tell you but Apple's laptops really aren't that good any more. Yes the software (Mac OS and iCloud) is great, but it's often Mac hardware that is compromised these days to keep up with making each product release thinner than the last one while at the same time increasing battery life. Something has to give and it's normally ports, or more recently keyboard travel and ports. The current MBP is a horrible compromised design that is massively over-priced.
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We are a collaborative of writers, photographers and videographers. Total of about 150 people but only about 38 of us are full time and critical for us to be in sync so 38 of us that will likely be moving to Windows. No idea how many of the others will make the jump though some will need to depending on the projects they're working on.

Mostly we each own our own equipment. Software and support varies with some individual and some through the collaborative.

As to food + laptop. Yes, likely 100% of our devices get used around food. Seriously, what good is a laptop if you can't use it in a coffee place, on a plane or with lunch when you're facing a looming deadline? That was an amazing question.

Over half of us have had some keyboard problems and maybe 5 or 6 have had serious problems. Two have recently had space bars stop working at critical times (and what caused us to consider switching); one near the beginning of a 5 hr flight when she had a lot of work to get done on the flight, and another at a client presentation where he ended up borrowing a Windows laptop to finish.

We really like Apple, but Apple's lack of response (and it does seem widespread enough that they should have responded) leaves us questioning how comfortable we are relying on them going forward. BTW, we went through the same thing when we standardized on Apple about 8 years ago due to consistent problems with Windows.

I don't know if you've already chosen a laptop, but look at Lenovo and Dell. A lot of Photographers like the XPS 15 as it's light, fast and has an excellent screen (very colour accurate). I went for a Lenovo P51. It's a lot heavier, but can take a lot more RAM (upto 64GB), has better storage options, has a 4K matte screen with 100% Adobe RGB and has a built in calibrator. It wasn't even that expensive - certainly a lot cheaper than a MBP. It also has a fantastic keyboard that has drainage holes incase you spill anythying on it. It also comes with onsite support.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I'm sorry to tell you but Apple's laptops really aren't that good any more. Yes the software (Mac OS and iCloud) is great,

Well said!
The software is the only reason I even have a Mac anymore honestly...

I've run Hack's on the desktop side for most of this decade now and I'd love to be using a Thinkpad for a laptop, but I'm firmly into macOS and they have me right where they want me.

 

[Roadstar]

I can't believe people let the keyboards on their $1400+ laptops get so dirty that the butterfly switch doesn't properly work due to gunk being lodged under the keys.

If it was genuine gunk that was breaking the current keyboards, I'd agree with you. However, it seems that a little spec of dust is often all it takes to break these new keyboards with ultra-tight tolerances, so maybe you should complain about people having the nerve to work, live, and travel outside a cleanroom.

 

[MichaelDT]

If it was genuine gunk that was breaking the current keyboards, I'd agree with you. However, it seems that a little spec of dust is often all it takes to break these new keyboards with ultra-tight tolerances, so maybe you should complain about people having the nerve to work, live, and travel outside a cleanroom.

I’m kind of confused by this I’m usually in a very dusty enviroment and my tb MBP has dust on it pretty much all the time and has not had an issue. I wonder if it really is dust what is the diameter and hardness that causes the failure. My pet theory is that people are using too much force and breaking the physical switches. Maybe something like a hard piece of dust gets in the mechanism, you push and the key doesn’t move, so you slam the key, crushing the particle but destroying the switch. Thus the key operates but the switch has failed.

 

[Roadstar]

I’m kind of confused by this I’m usually in a very dusty enviroment and my tb MBP has dust on it pretty much all the time and has not had an issue. I wonder if it really is dust what is the diameter and hardness that causes the failure. My pet theory is that people are using too much force and breaking the physical switches. Maybe something like a hard piece of dust gets in the mechanism, you push and the key doesn’t move, so you slam the key, crushing the particle but destroying the switch. Thus the key operates but the switch has failed.

I see your point and the theory would be rather plausible if it weren't for the fact that many issues are fixed by applying compressed air to the keyboard (which is instructed also by Apple: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662). Compressed air wouldn't fix a broken switch, but it does remove whatever dust is causing the keys to get stuck.

 

[MichaelDT]

I see your point and the theory would be rather plausible if it weren't for the fact that many issues are fixed by applying compressed air to the keyboard (which is instructed also by Apple: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662). Compressed air wouldn't fix a broken switch, but it does remove whatever dust is causing the keys to get stuck.

I think that’d be the solution before you break the switch of a non moving key or a key not moving in full range actuating the key, ive had that issue with many laptops over the years. I’m talking about the people compressed air doesn’t help, an who’s keys actuate fully.

 

[lpolarityl]

You watch any video of someone fixing a faulty butterfly key, its full of crumbs and gunk. A bunch of dust = gunk.

 

[Naimfan]

I just bought a 13" 2012 MBP - the 2.9 i7 model. And the keyboard is infinitely better feeling than the one on my 2017 15" (which has had its keyboard/top case replaced once already).

What I'd love to see is a MBP that uses the keyboard from the 2012-2015 retina models with modern internals (CPU, GPU, etc.). It'll never happen, because Apple doesn't care, but the current MBPs are poorly thought out (and who ever thought that would be said about a Mac?).

On the keyboard topic, I think the two main causes of failure are dust (based on what others have reported) and heat. For me, dust is not an issue - every time I've had to take a 2016 or 2017 in for service it is spotless, and it gets checked in as being in "new" condition. I do, however, run them 24/7, the fans running loudly all the time, which is why I suspect heat is a major issue. That was also said by two different Apple employees at two different stores.

 

[R.P.G]

That's also not true. The Dell XPS 13 is a better laptop then the Macbook Pro 13 if you're only factoring hardware

there are some good laptops which can compete with 13inch but definitely not XPS 13. have you seen their webcam placement.?? Apple would have been crucified if they do that...

 

[c0ppo]

Apple would have been crucified if they do that...

Are you sure? I thinka that media would call that ‘courage’ and that would bebit

 

[R.P.G]

Are you sure? I thinka that media would call that ‘courage’ and that would bebit

we are not media

 

[shaunp]

there are some good laptops which can compete with 13inch but definitely not XPS 13. have you seen their webcam placement.?? Apple would have been crucified if they do that...

Instead they get cruicified for the terrible keyboard and lack of ports ..... ;o) I can live with the webcam placement, but I could never get used to such a poor keyboard nor the limitation imposed by so few ports.

 

[csurfr]

Instead they get cruicified for the terrible keyboard and lack of ports ..... ;o) I can live with the webcam placement, but I could never get used to such a poor keyboard nor the limitation imposed by so few ports.

There is absolutely zero limitation on the new MacBook Pro when it comes to ports. The limitation you speak of is talked about from the perspective of those that refuse to accept change.

If you want 2x HDMI to drive dual 4K screens, it can do that. The 15” can even spin 2x 5K displays and 1x 4K display while simultaneously using the 15” screen. 3x USB-A it can do that too, with a single adapter. Card reader, yep those are out there as well.

If anything, the new MacBook Pro can do more than any previous model as the configuration can be changed to suit the needs of each individual user.

 

[turbineseaplane]

There is absolutely zero limitation on the new MacBook Pro when it comes to ports.

Essentially true..
You just have to make sure you have all the adapters with you that you might need and ensure they are all great adapters that are as reliable as built in ports.

 

[csurfr]

Essentially true..
You just have to make sure you have all the adapters with you that you might need and ensure they are all great adapters that are as reliable as built in ports.

I’m not sure what everyone is buying to be honest, but I’ve never had one fail.

That said, I changed everything over to USB-C that I could to prevent from needing any kind of adapter on the go.

I only wish Apple made a short (.5m) USB-C to USB-C cable.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I’m not sure what everyone is buying to be honest, but I’ve never had one fail.

That said, I changed everything over to USB-C that I could to prevent from needing any kind of adapter on the go.

I only wish Apple made a short (.5m) USB-C to USB-C cable.

Lucky guy - I've had lots of issues with our in-house 2016 and Apple's own multi connect and external drives and thumb drives disconnecting mid transfers. Super frustrating.

 

[csurfr]

Lucky guy - I've had lots of issues with our in-house 2016 and Apple's own multi connect and external drives and thumb drives disconnecting mid transfers. Super frustrating.

That Apple Multi-AV Adapter. . the one with HDMI? I looked at it once and avoided it based on HDMI only being 30hz. I have read where people had issues with it, and I know there is a software update for it specifically that should install upon first insertion of it.

I know it would require a separate purchase, but I have 1x Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter and picked up an USB-C to HDMI cable that supports 4k just fine relatively cheap from Amazon. In which case you'd be using 3 of the 4 ports on the MbP, provided you needed both USB and HDMI @ once.

Not ideal obviously.

 

[turbineseaplane]

That Apple Multi-AV Adapter. . the one with HDMI? I looked at it once and avoided it based on HDMI only being 30hz. I have read where people had issues with it, and I know there is a software update for it specifically that should install upon first insertion of it.

I know it would require a separate purchase, but I have 1x Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter and picked up an USB-C to HDMI cable that supports 4k just fine relatively cheap from Amazon. In which case you'd be using 3 of the 4 ports on the MbP, provided you needed both USB and HDMI @ once.

Not ideal obviously.

You've just described why so many of us are frustrated.
I didn't have to deal with any of this s*** before and I don't personally need/want any of the wildly flexible new concepts that are possible with adapters now.

So from the perspective of a user like me (my sig other's computer in this case), they took away something that was built in and worked perfectly and replaced it with flexibility I don't need or want and the old features I already had now require adapters and are less reliable than the perfect reliability of the previous built in ports.

I'm glad you love the new flexibility. I totally agree that some users will find that to be awesome.

That said, as I'm sure you're an objective person, I assume you realize how frustrating the change can be for some of us, correct?

 

[csurfr]

You've just described why so many of us are frustrated.
I didn't have to deal with any of this s*** before and I don't personally need/want any of the wildly flexible new concepts that are possible with adapters now.

So from the perspective of a user like me (my sig other's computer in this case), they took away something that was built in and worked perfectly and replaced with flexibility I don't need or want and the old features I already had now require adapters and are less reliable than the perfect reliability of the previous built in ports.

I'm glad you like the new flexibility, but being objective, I assume you realize how frustrating the change can be for some of us, correct?

On no, don't get it twisted. I DO understand the frustration that some people can feel over all of this, and that my use case is not the same as just about anyone else (I rarely plug anything into my MacBook Pro any longer), I'm just submitting that this is the direction that Apple seem to be going and not looking back.

It's going to come down to (in my opinion) a little more pain now, or a little more pain over time as people migrate their cables and what not. I could have done without a USB-C to Lightning cable and just used my USB-C to A adapter but now that I have it (2 of them actually) I use them exclusively with my 2017 iMac to charge the magic components and restore the iPad / iPhone and keep the other in my bag for on the go. Same with the 2-Pack of USB-C to USB-C that I use for my Samsung T3 which I boot windows off of.

I just figured the ports aren't coming back any time soon, that I might as well jump ship to USB-C now and be done with it.

Now that I've spent a little bit on cables Apple will undoubtedly switch all of the ports to some other random connector and ruin it all for me

 

[turbineseaplane]

@csurfr

Good stuff man - Nice to have some fairness and objectivity on this topic.

Too many who have no pain points on this change are just blindly telling everyone to "get with it" not realizing how frustrating and sometimes difficult that can be with different entrenched setups and connections and legacy gear, etc.

I'm personally on a 2015 15" MBP and plan to stay with it at least until I see what's happening with the next models re: keyboard stuff. I drastically prefer the Magic Keyboard and 2015 era keyboards, reliability stuff aside.

I may be hanging on to this machine for a long while - who knows...

The USB-C just irritates me as I still have to deal with it as the other unit in the house, and her connections, are constantly needing my tech attention.

 

[csurfr]

@csurfr

Good stuff man - Nice to have some fairness and objectivity on this topic.

Too many who have no pain points on this change are just blindly telling everyone to "get with it" not realizing how frustrating and sometimes difficult that can be with different entrenched setups and connections and legacy gear, etc.

I'm personally on a 2015 15" MBP and plan to stay with it at least until I see what's happening with the next models re: keyboard stuff. I drastically prefer the Magic Keyboard and 2015 era keyboards, reliability stuff aside.

I may be hanging on to this machine for a long while - who knows...

The USB-C just irritates me as I still have to deal with it as the other unit in the house, and her connections, are constantly needing my tech attention.

Ironically enough, the magic keyboards have two things: 1) lower travel than the previous gen MacBook Pro, and 2) a very high reliability rate. For the life of me I cannot figure out why they didn't use those mechanisms in the 2016/2017.