Microsoft Announces Surface 2 and Surface Pro 2

[Beta Particle]

Something that a lot of people seem to be unaware of, or overlooking, is that even the Surface 2 supports multiple users on a single device.

That alone makes it worthwhile to buy a Surface, or even a Surface Pro, instead of two iPads for some people.

Wow M$ is seriously losing it. Why is anyone going to pay laptop price for a tablet? Tablets, though they can be cumbersomely used as a work machine, just aren't as robust as a laptop with a full operating system.

Because it's not just a tablet. It's an Ultrabook (MacBook Air) spec computer, in a tablet form-factor.

This means you have the mobility of something like an iPad, but the power of a real computer.

And if you're at a desk, you can use as a laptop instead of being limited to only using the touchscreen interface and mobile apps.

There are some other advantages to this, like the Wacom digitizer which means you have real pen input, unlike the finger-painting you get with an iPad. Even with a stylus, it's no better than finger-painting on iOS.

More suicidal pricing/sales strategy from Microsoft. Instead of bundling in a touch/type cover on Surface 2 for a total of $399, they price it $449 and make you pay $119/$129 extra for the so-called optional cover.

Of course it's optional - Apple don't even make a keyboard for their tablets.

 

[Jared231]

Isn't Mac Rumors supposed to bring news about MAC?
What Microsoft does or not, does not interest me at all.

Then don't read MacRumors.
Every time there is a story about an Apple competitor someone always grumbles that this is supposed to be a forum about Apple only.
Apple doesn't operate in a vaccuum, they exist in a marketplace with other companies, each of whom are working to produce the best products.
I enjoy reading about Apple, but I enjoy reading about Apple in the context of their competition even more.

 

[teknikal90]

An A7 chip in an iPad is going to be a lot of computing power. And 64-bit Mac OS Apps seem to be transitioning easier to iOS on the A7. That probably comes out by end of October and sells for $500. I think Apple has just moved the goal posts on Microsoft.

Okay but one of the most basic functions of computing you still cant do on the ipad.
I can't make edit a word/excel document and save to drop box.
I can't go to a website and upload a document. I cant email a pdf, a word document and an excel document at the same time.

ps: your AAPL share actually is up .......you took a beating but only on your current year gains. From jan 1 you're up no?

 

[Battlefield Fan]

That's still not a fair comparison. The usage of an iPad doesn't require 128GB because it is not a content-creation machine. 32 is going to be sufficient for the usage style associated with an iPad (or the Surface RT for that matter). You came here to accuse the forum of being full of "fan boys" who don't listen to rational arguments, yet you're doing the same thing.

The Surface Pro is a really cool device. It is not a direct iPad competitor. Its direct Apple competition is a Macbook Air.

Thanks for reporting my post!

 

[Atomic Walrus]

Thanks for reporting my post!

Uh, I didn't. But, you're welcome I guess?

 

[ActionableMango]

The Surface Pro is a really cool device. It is not a direct iPad competitor. Its direct Apple competition is a Macbook Air.

The Surface Pro is a hybrid. It has PC laptop power with a full OS, but in a tablet form factor with a touchscreen suitable as a primary interface.

The people I know with Surface Pros definitely use them as both a tablet and a laptop, so I'd say the Surface Pro competes with both the iPad and the MacBook Air.

 

[inlovewithi]

1 month wait for delivery? What are they thinking? On the other hand, this is classic Microsoft.

It's release date is on October 22. I don't get your month wait comment. A person has to wait until its release date.

 

[Atomic Walrus]

The Surface Pro is a hybrid. It has PC laptop power with a full OS, but in a tablet form factor with a touchscreen suitable as a primary interface.

The people I know with Surface Pros definitely use them as both a tablet and a laptop, so I'd say the Surface Pro competes with both the iPad and the MacBook Air.

In terms of usage I agree, I was referring to price. The person I was replying to was suggesting that he couldn't understand why anyone would buy an iPad over a Surface Pro, and I pointed out that they weren't at the same price point.

That said, I will say that if I ever bought another tablet (I have an iPad 2) it would be this type: A full PC in tablet form factor. I quickly found that I didn't have any real use for a tablet with a mobile OS and passed it on to a family member.

 

[mrsir2009]

They should've quit while they were ahead & got back to what they do best - SOFTWARE.

Well, if you replace the word 'best' with 'monopoly'...

 

[spinedoc77]

I wasn't even talking about iOS. I was saying that Windows RT people will be safe even after viruses are written because of the fact that you can only get things from the store.



I think one of Microsoft's biggest selling points is that they're competent coders, at least that's what I like about them. Are they perfect? Of course not, no company is ran by perfect people and/or staffed by them. They make mistakes, but they're a good software company. Look at Windows Phone 7, for example. Look at Windows Phone 8. Look at how good IE 10 and 11 are, even 9 is fairly decent. Look at Visual Studio. Look at Microsoft Office. Microsoft has much more going for them than their legacy support, they have the ability to make kick-arse programs.

Of course, the main selling point of a Windows machine is normally the ability to run x86. And for the people who need really powerful machines, that is the Surface Pro. I see, and feel, that there is a place in the market for both the RT to continue and for the full Windows 8 to continue. There are people who keep needing x86, they need a powerhouse, and good on them. My needs aren't the needs of everyone. There are a group of people who don't need x86 support, though, and Microsoft is giving them something that is actually pretty good.

I see Windows RT, and I will continue to call it that, as a potential net gain for a lot of people. They don't want full Windows, but they like the ecosystem that Microsoft provides. I'm looking forward to 8.1, for example, because of the integration with SkyDrive. I like the idea of being able to type up something on my RT at some point, then if I'm using my Air it's there because of the auto syncing.

As for the application problem, it's slowly being fixed. To be honest with you, I was thinking of making a topic at some point in the alternatives forum to ask people what they use their tablets for. Something tells me that the app problem is fairly solved for a good number of people. But the idea is "there's no apps", so some people don't bother even looking. They just see that Apple has hundreds of thousands of apps and so does Google. Then they read a smaller number for Microsoft and assume it means they shouldn't look any further.

I have to disagree, there is no reason for RT to exist. Why? You have the atom tablets which run a FULL x86 machine, and run it well, with ipad like battery life and thinness. Why would you want to give up windows, if you could have it on the side if you ever needed the desktop or a legacy program. You would actually save money as well, as a couple of Baytrail tablets have been announced at $349 with keyboards, a huge savings versus surface RT 2, so you can't even say that you sacrifice the OS for a cheaper tablet. You actually sacrifice the OS, AND pay MORE for the tablet, crazy.

----------

An A7 chip in an iPad is going to be a lot of computing power. And 64-bit Mac OS Apps seem to be transitioning easier to iOS on the A7. That probably comes out by end of October and sells for $500. I think Apple has just moved the goal posts on Microsoft.

Apple hasn't moved any goal posts. You know why, because 64 bit isn't going to do squat to the user experience. Yeah programs will open .00012 milliseconds quicker, did you really find any apps on the iphone 5/ipad 4 which opened so slowly you wished you had a 64 bit processor? For me I cannot think of a single app which was slow or I would care if it opened a millisecond quicker. Just about the only arguable point is games, and I highly doubt anyone this generation will make a game that is only playable on 64 bit because they would cannibalize sales on all the iphone5/ipad4 and previous owners out there. I'm NOT saying 64 bit isn't the future, I'm just saying we won't see the "future" until at least the next generation cycle.

It's a shame because Baytrail is pretty darn close to the A7 performance in many areas: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7335/the-iphone-5s-review/5 If MS would just throw away Arm they would have a VERY consumer friendly platform with Baytrail.

 

[TallManNY]

Okay but one of the most basic functions of computing you still cant do on the ipad.
I can't make edit a word/excel document and save to drop box.
I can't go to a website and upload a document. I cant email a pdf, a word document and an excel document at the same time.

ps: your AAPL share actually is up .......you took a beating but only on your current year gains. From jan 1 you're up no?

Yep, still some ways to go. But there are some work arounds on the word stuff as many programs will allow you open word and edit it. Not sure about drop box integration, but I can email document and then do that step when in front of "real" computer.

As for the shares, you are right. Actually all my individual purchase of Apple are up (I've bought at various price points but all lower than current price (some substantially)). But not as far up as they were 12 months or so ago. I will update my signature.

 

[ActionableMango]

In terms of usage I agree, I was referring to price. The person I was replying to was suggesting that he couldn't understand why anyone would buy an iPad over a Surface Pro, and I pointed out that they weren't at the same price point.

Oh yes, if you meant price, I agree with you completely.

Honestly I think MS should have heavily subsidized the Surfaces until they had attained better market share. Sure, this would have been costly, but the $900 million writedown on unsold inventory was costly too, and they have the cash to literally buy market share.

Surfaces should have been subsidized. Office should have been finished, and licensing it only for non-commercial use is a sick joke. Exchange should have been included and integrated, but they didn't even offer Outlook, their own damn software; EVERY MS software program should have been available for RT. No joining a domain? C'mon. They should have licensed the "Metro" name, that resonated well with people.

The success of Surface is incredibly important to Microsoft's future, and although I'm sure they know that, they don't seem to be acting as such. The entire company should be behind the effort and giving it's all in every way, but instead we got a partially finished offering with more holes than Swiss cheese.

Hopefully Surface 2 will pull some of this together, but already I am disappointed because they are building on consumer confusion by dropping the RT moniker for the Windows RT Surface, and I'm not seeing a huge subsidy.

 

[Beta Particle]

I have to disagree, there is no reason for RT to exist. Why? You have the atom tablets which run a FULL x86 machine, and run it well, with ipad like battery life and thinness.

These processors have just been brought to market (they were not an option last year) and still only offer netbook performance - which is great when compared to ARM tablets, but terrible when compared to Ultrabooks/MacBook Air class machines.

The performance is perfectly adequate for Metro apps, but not at all suitable for the desktop. In a year or two, I can see why they might want to consider switching from ARM to x86 though - and they're in a better position to do this than Apple is.

Why would you want to give up windows, if you could have it on the side if you ever needed the desktop or a legacy program.

Why would someone ever give up OS X and all its legacy applications for an iOS device?

 

[JackieInCo]

Oct 15., Apple announces new iPads, sells a lot of them. People continue to ignore the Surface.

And when the iPads go on sale, people stand in line to get them. Who stands in line to buy a Surface?

 

[spinedoc77]

These processors have just been brought to market (they were not an option last year) and still only offer netbook performance - which is great when compared to ARM tablets, but terrible when compared to Ultrabooks/MacBook Air class machines.

The performance is perfectly adequate for Metro apps, but not at all suitable for the desktop. In a year or two, I can see why they might want to consider switching from ARM to x86 though - and they're in a better position to do this than Apple is.
Why would someone ever give up OS X and all its legacy applications for an iOS device?

Sure they were available last year, Clovertrail was out. I've had a Clovertrail tablet since January 2013. Clovertrail is quite capable as a windows desktop processor, it isn't a dream come true but it IS capable. I've run photoshop on it nicely, although I did not try to load up a big file and I have no illusions that loading up the files artists use in PS would probably not work well on Clovertrail Baytrail is supposed to be the first major complete revamp of the Atom line and is supposed to be a huge upgrade, Baytrail is available now, with 2 or 3 tablets already announced and I'm sure several more will pop up for the holiday season this year.

As for giving up OSx for iOS, I'm not sure I understand your drift? I'm assuming you are trying to have some kind of comparison with windows and metro in some weird passive aggressive way? I have no problem throwing that question out there, if OSx was available on an ipad I'll bet it would be a HUGE HUGE seller, I guarantee it. The reasons why we can all discuss as it is an interesting discussion, but it would be very popular IMO. Would Apple want to cannibalize sales of it's OSx laptops? Well, that's an interesting question. Fans readily accept what to me is the BS excuse that OSx would not translate well to an ipad, IMO that's Apple selling you guys a big fat bill of goods.

 

[FelixAng]

It's release date is on October 22. I don't get your month wait comment. A person has to wait until its release date.

Preorder has started. How many things would you preorder a month in advance of *release" ?

 

[Renzatic]

If editing RAW files is what people use their Surface Pro for, expect the Surface Pro 2 to sell way less than the Surface Pro 1.

Camera shipments continue to fall
The Japanese imaging manufacturers association, CIPA, has just released its global production and shipments report for the first half of the year, and there's not a lot of good news in it. Between January and June 2013 Japanese manufacturers shipped just short of 30 million digital cameras - that's a 43% drop in a single year.

You wanna know why people have stopped buying digital cameras? iPad and iPhone. I am taking all my photos with an iPad 3. The big screen is gorgeous. Consider the old way of making photos dead. Watching with one eye closed through a lens on a reflexive mirror is archaic.

I'm pretty sure they're talking about point 'n shoots, which are being replaced by Smartphones.

But you don't get RAWs off a point 'n shoot. You get them off DSLR's. Yes, it's a niche market in comparison, but it's popular enough, and, most importantly, profitable enough to be considered.

See, this is the thing people say I always take issues with. That popularity and pure sales numbers are the only thing that's important in business. That's not true at all. The one thing that's most important in business is profit, plain and simple. It's a truism that things aimed towards a larger market tend to sell more, and make more money, but that doesn't mean that things aimed at niche markets are useless to consider.

It's true that the Surface Pro will never sell as many units as the iPad. Neither will the Macbook Pro. These are higher end, more expensive products aimed at smaller markets.

It's much the same way that Photoshop will never move as many units as a particularly popular $5 painting app on the App Store. Does that mean Photoshop is irrelevant? No. It means it's aimed at a smaller market with higher end needs. Most people don't need Photoshop, but those who do will buy it up in a snap.

And guess what? Adobe makes a ton of money. Maybe not as much as Apple, but what does that matter? They're making different products for a smaller group of people.

See what I'm getting at? A products appeal to the lowest common denominator isn't an exacting indicator of quality or usefulness. The tech world isn't solely a popularity contest, where units moved is the only important factor to consider. Apple's success is the tech world isn't proof that no one needs anything else but iPads. It's only proof that they released a good product at the right price that appeals to a tons of people.

Also, I don't think anyone has had to look through a viewfinder to take a photo since 2006. My old Nikon D80 was the last DSLR that didn't have live view on the LCD screen.

 

[Foxer]

Sales of the first Xbox were dismal. Sales of the 360 were not.

...not that I expect the surface 2 to succeed like the 360.

Not that it's relevant, the original Xbox sales weren't "dismal." About 24 million units. Nowhere near the PS2, of course, but well ahead of Nintendo. I certainly don't think you could call it a failure - unlike the Surface.

 

[Gudi]

I'm pretty sure they're talking about point 'n shoots, which are being replaced by Smartphones. But you don't get RAWs off a point 'n shoot. You get them off DSLR's.

DSLR Sales Are Down
The Japan-based Camera & Imaging Products Association released new numbers for camera shipments for the first half of 2013. The numbers aren’t so good. This year so far has seen 3.6 million units sold against 4.3 million last year, and the mirrorless folk aren’t doing so well either: 710,000 this year versus 882,000 for the first half of 2012.

So its –16.3 % for DSLRs only. Shrinking not so fast as point-and-shoot cameras but faster than PC sales. Might still be a profitable market, won't be for much longer.

It's a truism that things aimed towards a larger market tend to sell more, and make more money, but that doesn't mean that things aimed at niche markets are useless to consider.

Well even PCs are becoming somewhat of a niche market now. Its not so much the size of the market, but if its growing or shrinking. Its harder to make more profit, if the cake is getting smaller.

It's true that the Surface Pro will never sell as many units as the iPad. Neither will the Macbook Pro. These are higher end, more expensive products aimed at smaller markets.

Escaping PCs
The real problem for the PC vendors is not that they have such low margins–they’ve had low margins for decades. It’s that the volumes which “made up for” low margins are disappearing.

With Apple making 45% of all profits in the PC market and the 13-inch MacBook Pro being the best-selling Mac for years, it is clearly not aimed at a niche of the market. The MacBook Pro is the role-model for the PC market and everyone is trying to copy it, if they are not busy copying the MacBook Air. The Surface Pro on the contrary is not making a profit and therefore is not even showing up under "Other" vendors making profits with PCs. Its not in a niche of the market, it has no market.

Apple's success is the tech world isn't proof that no one needs anything else but iPads. It's only proof that they released a good product at the right price that appeals to a tons of people.

Right, but computers are multi-purpose devices who are eliminating the need for other devices. You are not carrying a smartphone and a calculator with you. There's an app for that.

Also, I don't think anyone has had to look through a viewfinder to take a photo since 2006. My old Nikon D80 was the last DSLR that didn't have live view on the LCD screen.

A very small LCD screen compared to an iPad mini. The Nikons biggest problem is the much too complicated software. And its not a multi-purpose device.

 

[Konrad9]

Not that it's relevant, the original Xbox sales weren't "dismal." About 24 million units. Nowhere near the PS2, of course, but well ahead of Nintendo. I certainly don't think you could call it a failure - unlike the Surface.

Wow, I never knew the Gamecube sold THAT poorly (21 mil worldwide). I figured it was near or above the Xbox. Thanks for that perspective.

 

[inlovewithi]

Preorder has started. How many things would you preorder a month in advance of *release" ?

God, a lot of things. From the top of my head right now, the PS3 and X Box One when they were introduced many months ago. GTA V a few months ago.

From your post you obviously thought that they were just released and that it was going to take one month for it to get to the people.

You have to understand that the world is a big place, there are many, many other companies besides Apple. Just because you only read Apple news and they start preorders a week before doesn't mean that that's the norm.

I just checked right now, Apple started taking pre orders for the first iPad on March 12, 2010, and the iPad went on sale on April 3, 2010.

Yet you want to bash Microsoft because of this emotional attachment to Apple.

I mean I'm still fascinated by your comment. I mean, based on your view of competitors of Apple, what were you thinking? Were you thinking that due to the below average IQ of everyone working at Microsoft they knew they were going to have trouble filling out the shipping papers, etc. If so wouldn't you think in your head that it would be weird that they can program a computer, and are a multi-billion dollar company despite having such a below average IQ?

I don't know, I'm just fascinated.

 

[FelixAng]

God, a lot of things. From the top of my head right now, the PS3 and X Box One when they were introduced many months ago. GTA V a few months ago.

From your post you obviously thought that they were just released and that it was going to take one month for it to get to the people.

You have to understand that the world is a big place, there are many, many other companies besides Apple. Just because you only read Apple news and they start preorders a week before doesn't mean that that's the norm.

I just checked right now, Apple started taking pre orders for the first iPad on March 12, 2010, and the iPad went on sale on April 3, 2010.

Yet you want to bash Microsoft because of this emotional attachment to Apple.

I mean I'm still fascinated by your comment. I mean, based on your view of competitors of Apple, what were you thinking? Were you thinking that due to the below average IQ of everyone working at Microsoft they knew they were going to have trouble filling out the shipping papers, etc. If so wouldn't you think in your head that it would be weird that they can program a computer, and are a multi-billion dollar company despite having such a below average IQ?

I don't know, I'm just fascinated.

They're a multi-billion dollar company because their sense of innovation is attached to licenses, and that's mostly all they're good at. Tell me what has been successful about their hardware.

I read real news too, and yes, I knew they weren't shipping until mid-October, strategically planned to compete with iPad 5.

I just think it's reasonable to say that it's quite presumptuous of them to think pre-orders will be necessary. Apple gave a month's notice for the first one--and it WAS a success. The Surface, by all accounts, has not been a success. Microsoft's sales have barely equaled their marketing of the Surface : http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3624014

The Surface 2 isn't much better---what makes you think demand is going to change? Perseverance? Maybe. But, I can tell you, their marketing strategy is pathetic, placing the iPad next to the Surface, and even giving false impressions of the iPad side by side. (Go check it out; it's well documented)

People probably wanted the X-Box, and iPad, and tickets to the upcoming "big pop concert" in town. But Surface is not in demand, in any way. It's just an opportunity for them to get whatever little bit they can before iPad 5/and Mini Retina eat their sales opportunities alive.

 

[Liquorpuki]

read real news too, and yes, I knew they weren't shipping until mid-October, strategically planned to compete with iPad 5.

They're not shipping til mid-October because that's when Windows Blue is scheduled to drop.

You want to talk strategic releases, Apple broke their usual release cycle back in January to get out a 128GB iPad SKU and stuck ads all over their website about how the iPad is useful for work a week before the Surface Pro came out.

I just think it's reasonable to say that it's quite presumptuous of them to think pre-orders will be necessary. Apple gave a month's notice for the first one--and it WAS a success. The Surface, by all accounts, has not been a success. Microsoft's sales have barely equaled their marketing of the Surface : http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3624014

The Surface 2 isn't much better---what makes you think demand is going to change? Perseverance? Maybe. But, I can tell you, their marketing strategy is pathetic, placing the iPad next to the Surface, and even giving false impressions of the iPad side by side. (Go check it out; it's well documented)

People probably wanted the X-Box, and iPad, and tickets to the upcoming "big pop concert" in town. But Surface is not in demand, in any way. It's just an opportunity for them to get whatever little bit they can before iPad 5/and Mini Retina eat their sales opportunities alive.

It's interesting how many people in this thread don't even realize Surface refers to two different product lines with 2 different architectures, feature sets and demographic targets. Yet they write long paragraphs about something they refer to in the singular

 

[FelixAng]

They're not shipping til mid-October because that's when Windows Blue is scheduled to drop.

You want to talk strategic releases, Apple broke their usual release cycle back in January to get out a 128GB iPad SKU and stuck ads all over their website about how the iPad is useful for work a week before the Surface Pro came out.



It's interesting how many people in this thread don't even realize Surface refers to two different product lines with 2 different architectures, feature sets and demographic targets. Yet they write long paragraphs about something they refer to in the singular

Yeah, which is further evidence. The Surface model, whether content-based or professional power-based hasn't caught on very well. Perhaps it's more evidence of Windows 8's failings.

Hey, they tried.

 

[blitzkreig]

Perhaps if they bundled it with a Zune ... ?