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I personally think he's half right.

The surface pro does seem like a more productive piece of machinery. I mean, my iPad Retina doesn't even support flash.

But that's why I have my macbook.

The iPad is more of a fun interface where I CAN use it to check mails, browse sites, read stuff, play some games...

but truth is the surface pro is MUCH more equipped. and much more universal supportive.

So then why does it flop? That should hurt more Mr Microsoft Whoever-you-are.

You have a more productive and more capable product that's cheaper, which includes MS Office- your most high grossing and used software included for free...

Yet no one buys it.
Take a hint.

The big problem, in my opinion, is that the Surface only makes you "more productive" if you use it as a laptop instead of a tablet. And it's a poor laptop.
 
I installed windows 8.1 last Saturday on a friends pc.
Show me someone who says that 8.1 is just as easy to use as win7 and I'll show you someone who has never worked with win8.1

Win8.1 just cleans up some bugs that Win8 had with closing programs and the resources that they hogged. Also the "fake" start-up button doesn't improve the workability much.
In the end I had to install a program that adds a start button like there was in Win7. Clamshell Classic View app or something with a name like that.



Microsoft Office is still the nr 1 productivity suite in the world and it's still the standard.
But I have replaced it with LibreOffice.org (the most up-to-date fork of OpenOffice.org) on pc's and my Macs.
It's also starting to get a decent adaptation rate in the business world and goverments in Europe.
Its standards are documented, open-source and supported/quality-controlled by a Foundation.
Except some minor errors that it has when opening MS Office documents that contain rich text data, it works perfect.

So you get a free full office suite that works now on Windows, Linux and OSX...and 2014 will be interesting because than the versions for Android and iOS will become available + "LibreOffice Online".

While Microsoft Office is not threatend by iWorks, they should keep more an eye on LibreOffice, because that could be taking a chunk out of their business.

I have used both 7 and 8.1, so has my sister. After getting used to the changes, which took about fifteen minutes to get used to the new start screen, charms, and the new way of shutting down, it is just as fast as 7 for us. Also, LibreOffice is not taking much of their business. Use of alternatives in corporations is going down, not up.
 
It just sucks how much hate Microsoft gets when their products have actually been fantastic and better than the competition of late, but the "uncoolness" of their brand is holding the products back with the lack of popularity, sales and 3rd party support.

Microsoft and "fantastic products" in the same sentence makes as much sense as the words "military" and "intelligence" or "Android" and "usable" in the same sentence.
 
It just sucks how much hate Microsoft gets when their products have actually been fantastic and better than the competition of late, but the "uncoolness" of their brand is holding the products back with the lack of popularity, sales and 3rd party support.

Agreed. MS gets a lot of things right. Their brand is not "cool" because it isn't Apple. Quite frankly, MS would do better if they paid less attention to the competition and more on building products to fit their lifestyle and personal needs then let the consumer decide which they prefer. Having said that, even though I tend to do most of my word processing with Word on my iMac a Word compatible app on my iPhone (UX Write), I would use Pages more if it was easier to move docs around. Pages has the edge on Word where it comes to making things look pretty. Same with Keynote. Apple knows how to make things look GOOD.
 
But can you get iWork do real work? Does it have a database manager? Is there a powerful worksheet? No. Does it integrate email/sophisticated address book/calender well? Not really. Has it gain any traction since its inception in 2005? No Comparing iWork to Outlook is like comparing a bicycle to a Lexus. You get what you pay for. Apple should stick to making iPad and not in making software.

Functionally I agree that iWork < MS Office. Problem is is that for many people this hasn't been a sufficiently good argument for buying a Surface over an ipad (or an Android device). Further more iWork, or Google Apps have been good enough for many people for long enough on their iPads, Samsung Tabs etc that not having Outlook etc on their device isn't the end of the world.

Personally I love Skydrive+Office Web Apps on my mac, Office:mobile on my iPhone and Office 2013 in my Win VM on my mac. moved away from iWork a couple of years back when I was bumping into it's limitations relative to what I needed to get done. However if many people's needs are being met Google Apps or iWork on their phone/tablet/desktop browser then full functionality MS Office is, by definition, overkill for them.

For most people, they've had since the release of the original iPad to learn how to live without MS Office. They've either succeeded an no longer need MS Office or have found other means of staying within the MS Office fold. Including MS Office on Surface RT and trumpeting such as their Unique Selling Point may well be true but it's also not working/sufficiently appealing as a pitch.

For those who need nothing more than to manage a household budget, a free copy of Numbers with any Apple hardware purchase precludes the need to look any further, leave alone consider Surface RT or an Office 365 subscription.
 
But can you get iWork do real work? Does it have a database manager? Is there a powerful worksheet? No. Does it integrate email/sophisticated address book/calender well? Not really. Has it gain any traction since its inception in 2005? No Comparing iWork to Outlook is like comparing a bicycle to a Lexus. You get what you pay for. Apple should stick to making iPad and not in making software.

This is wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to begin?

First, Outlook has nothing to do iWork. Last I checked, I don't create documents and spreadsheets with Outlook. It's an integrated email/calendar/contacts. If you want to compare Outlook with Mail/iCal/Contacts then fine, do so. I use the latter 3 in an enterprise setting, and have no issues at all. Oh, and sophisticated address book/calendar? Can't wait to hear this one!

I will agree that Excel/Word integrates well with databases for mail merge/pivot table needs, and iWork does not have that, and probably never will. Mostly because that's not iWork's targeted audience. It's not supposed to be an enterprise replacement. What people are missing is the longterm possibilities. As younger people buy MacBooks, iPads, etc. with iWork freely available, they'll depend less/less on MS Office. It won't take over MS Office, but it surely could put a dent in their market share.
 
Microsoft and "fantastic products" in the same sentence makes as much sense as the words "military" and "intelligence" or "Android" and "usable" in the same sentence.

Being in the military and having a wife with an older Android phone I can heartily agree with your assessment. I will give Android props for making good strides forward. I occassionally check out the new Android phones and am impressed by how much better they are getting.

Good competition for Apple. Keeps them from getting complacent. :)
 
Well, I find W8 start screen quite useful and beautiful, specially after 8.1 and the far greater customization it allows.
Maybe it helps I use a mouse with wheel and 4 buttons. Wheel right for charms, button 1 in the thumb go to Start, button 2 in the thumb go to desktop. It feels very natural to me.

Also, with 8.1 if you don't want you don't have to see the start screen anymore. Just select the options "boot to desktop", "go directly to programs list" and disable the "hot" corners. Now you are left with a much improved Windows 7. Why the hate? :confused:
Done all of the above. Still doesn't feel "right" even on 8.1, which is an improvement over 8.0 but still I prefer Windows 7. To me 8 still feels clunky and I've had plenty of time to get used to it now.

Also I personally think that the Metro interface is ugly, as is the new "flattened" desktop UI, but each to their own.
 
if i would want a device to be really productive with keyboard and a mouse pointer input id buy a laptop and not a tablet ... thats what MS is not getting

I agree, of I wanted something that I could be productive on with all the ports and other Input devices, I would use my laptop. The problem with Surface is MS is positioning it as a laptop replacement rather than a device which falls I between a laptop and a phone as Apple wisely did. Besides, for most folks, iWork is just fine.
 
Microsoft knows how people work? Then why do I have to re-learn where everything is in Office every time they need to sell more copies? Anyone related to the Office Ribbon can **** about productivity.
 
Enter iPad pro?

I hope so. :)

There seems to be some rumors about a 12,9" device. Could be something. I guess it would be dangerous to change the characteristics of any of the existing lines. A kickstand on the iPad air could even scare me off. So it's probably better to bring out something completely new so you don't run into peoples general aversion towards change.
 
Like "Apple" and "Open-minded"?

To be fair, my understanding about Apple's thinking is this: "we build the devices we want to use every day." Naturally, what they want and how they think isn't always going to be same as us and so we get odd birds like windows that can only be resized in the bottom right hand corner until just 3years ago. But for me I feel they get so much more right than the competition that I continue to buy their products.

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The good news is that Microsoft understands how people work better than anyone else on the planet.

Sure, because they spent the nineties and '00s going all Darth-Vader-correcting-his-subordinates on the other ways of working.

Also, one word: "Clippy". Yep, sure knew exactly what people wanted to do THERE... ;)
 
Who ever said the iPad was supposed to be a productivity device?

This goes beyond a simple hardware feature / spec war between the two devices.

The iPad was designed to be a simple and portable consumption device. I believe the only reason the iPad succeeded was it was released at a time where the Internet and networking was ubiquitous enough to allow for content delivery. But I digress.

Microsoft fails to mention that there are a limited amount of the same apps that many of us have integrated into our lives available on the surface platform. This is a huge issue! For example, anyone in the Apple eco system with an investment in iTunes is not likely to migrate to the Surface because iTunes is not there. This includes many Windows users!

That being said, the Surface does one thing that Apple does not, You can invest in a single Metro app and run it on both a Surface RT and a Windows 8.x workstation.
 
^^^ THIS!
I use iWork daily in my job, but the remainder of the company uses Office 2007/2010/2011[Mac]. I have no issues with the few documents/spreadsheets I need to create/share. However, we're faced with the dilemma of having to upgrade 250 plus seats [plus true up] of Office. With the new 365 mess, we're looking at an annual cost of $40K! Or we can buy outright at some astronomical price of $120K. So we're off on a fact gathering/trial on OO, and LO. I also use both on a personal level, and love them. Easy to use, fast, and sharing with Office counterparts has been 99.99% seamless.

Over the next couple of years we're on a quest to reduce the "MS" footprint in our organization. Our main app, and CRM are both Web based, so this may be the path we go...

Yes. When you are buying your own copies of office it is easy to bite the bullet. But when you are buying (or read "renting") 250 + copies that's a hard sell

I have been calling office the trojan horse productivity suite for years now. The shenanigans that MS has done with the licensing now ( if you are unaware of how Office is licensed, prepare to have your mind blown ) are truly bunk. To quote:
Can I transfer the software to another computer or user? You may not transfer the software to another computer or user. You may transfer the software directly to a third party only as installed on the licensed computer, with the Certificate of Authenticity label and this agreement. Before the transfer, that party must agree that this agreement applies to the transfer and use of the software. You may not retain any copies.

To top it all off even in the OP the best logic of all was on open display, speaking of iWork:
not non-standard, non-cross-platform, imitation apps that can’t share docs with the rest of the world.

I just love it when your argument for buying your software is that unless you buy it you can't open files created on it. This is pure circular logic and is so played out.
 
"The Surface and Surface 2 are less expensive than the iPad 2 and iPad Air respectively, and yet offer more storage, both onboard and in the cloud"

And yet still nobody is buying them. Doesn't that tell you something Microsoft. Nobody wants your crappy Surface. Every day more and more people are migrating away from your bug ridden over priced software. If tablets ever replace laptops as most people's primary computer Microsoft will be toast.
 
Does it have a database manager?

I'm so sorry to tell you that working in AccessDB is like going to database kindergarten. Anyone who needs to use databases seriously needs to have something better. And honestly the "integration" between Excel and "Databases" is probably more counterproductive that helpful. It really encourages people to completely misunderstand what a database is. It is not "rows and columns" on steroids.

I can't tell you how many horror stories i have heard about Access DB.
 
This is not shocking

Microsoft has been 'selling' the Surface by Apple bashing all along. So little faith that focusing on their own product would be enough

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Microsoft's blog sounds like it was written by some disgruntled MacRumours forum members...

Funny I thought it read more BGR
 
Why not just ignore Apple and make something better? This is weird coming from the software giant that charges $200 for their software package. This package that costs $70ish from Apple shouldn't be in their league.

Right?

The same deal with the OS.

Windows 8.1 Core $148 (in Australia)
Mavericks - $0

The OS from Apple should not be in the same league as Windows. It's not. Unfortunately for MS, it's OS X that's in the higher league.
 
You MUST admit this demonstrates how overpriced iPads are. They don't do anything my phone can't do. A Surface Pro on the other hand is just superior in every way. Multitasking is now fantastic with the variable dual-app slider in Windows 8.1.

And it's a full computer! The Intel components and ventilation system is what drives the price. If a 128GB iPad can be justified for $799, please tell me how $999 for a WHOLE COMPUTER isn't worth it?! Microsoft nailed everything with the Surface Pro 2. Ultimate freedom with fantastic battery life.

To those who consider Windows 8 a flop, you're delusional. Sales mean nothing but they were certainly good, AND on a touch-enabled device it is such a lovely experience. For desktops it wasn't amazing but you got used to it. With 8.1, most quarrels were fixed, and for free. Mavericks is a mere Service Pack that has battery efficiency improvements. NOTHING more.
Here's the problem with that argument: for $999 you can GET a "whole computer": the MacBook Air 11" w/128GB SSD standard.
√ 9 hours of battery life (leave adapter in the bag)

√ light, thin, rugged form factor with a real keyboard

√ Runs all the big-boy apps
For the slight hits of a screen w/lower pixel density, .15" of thickness and about six ounces more in weight you get a robust ACTUAL LAPTOP that you can use ON YOUR LAP. No need for spending more on a keyboard cover, either.

Then again it doesn't have a kickstand. Oh wait--it doesn't NEED one.

Apple has these markets dialed in pretty well. iPads are primarily for media consumption, but can certainly be dual-tasked to be productive. Laptops are productive, but can certainly be dual-tasked for media consumption. While there is ample crossover, form and function should follow primary utility of a product's design. The Surface line to me looks like a mish-mash of trying to make one device do it all. And it probably DOES it all in a clumsy, brutish way, but that's a tough sell vs. Apple's more elegant offerings. Consumers now expect thin, thin, thin, and day-long battery life. Plug-it-in-to-do-real-work is a rough sell, and if any company dares to offer a tablet that costs substantially MORE than an iPad, it had better be absolutely stunning. I think the market thus far has declared the Surface line less than "stunning."

The fact that .15" is the difference in thickness between the Surface Pro 2 (no keyboard cover) and the Macbook Air 11" (w/screen, closed), at least to me, is pretty damning. With a cover in place, aren't they roughly the same thickness? Wouldn't most people, therefore, want aluminum construction and protection of a conventional laptop design rather than a tablet with a flimsy plastic tack-on? For a "productivity first" machine?

Retina displays are dazzling, but for non-graphic-design business productivity they aren't that great an enhancement, IMHO. So the Surface Pro 2's 1080p display fires up more pixels than the 11" Air's (1366 x 768), but does that really matter when writing a report or crunching numbers in a spreadsheet?

If you HAVE to have 1080p for 1080p's sake, Amazon will sell you a Kindle Fire HD for $230.
 
"The Surface and Surface 2 are less expensive than the iPad 2 and iPad Air respectively, and yet offer more storage, both onboard and in the cloud"

And yet still nobody is buying them. Doesn't that tell you something Microsoft. Nobody wants your crappy Surface. Every day more and more people are migrating away from your bug ridden over priced software. If tablets ever replace laptops as most people's primary computer Microsoft will be toast.

That was contradictory. You quoted that the Surface and Surface 2 are cheaper, then go on to criticise Microsoft for their over-priced software. What?! I'd hate to imagine what the world would be like if Microsoft didn't make significant profit off their globally-leading productivity software to bail out Apple in the 90s. And the grounds they did it? FOR THE COMPETITION. Apple simply wants to eliminate competition with patent wars and make profit off its servants with exclusivity.

Also your OS and iWork software has and never will be free. They sneak it in the premium you pay for your device.
 
It's rare to see a thread get this long. I haven't been able to read over every single comment, but the pages I have looked through show that this is a pretty sensitive topic. People are passionate about this debate, which is cool to see. Steve would be proud that his products have created to much energy, enthusiasm and passion among those who follow and those who hate.

I wonder if it'll reach 1000 posts. So long as I've been following MR I haven't seen that happen yet.
 
Unless I'm missing something the Surface doesnt have more storage ? They only come in 64GB and of that only 44GB is usable last I checked?

Office is a great suite. Primarily because it is ubiquitous in homes and work places. However I don't really want to try writing large complicated documents on any tablet. It's possible, but not fun. iwork supports MS formats, and anything is shareable with anyone via iCloud - unless I didn't understand the demo?

Surface isn't a bad product. But its trying to offer the same as a desktop experience, which it can't do.

You can use a microsd card with the surface to add more storage.
 
Here's the problem with that argument: for $999 you can GET a "whole computer": the MacBook Air 11" w/128GB SSD standard.
√ 9 hours of battery life (leave adapter in the bag)

√ light, thin, rugged form factor with a real keyboard

√ Runs all the big-boy apps
For the slight hits of a screen w/lower pixel density, .15" of thickness and about six ounces more in weight you get a robust ACTUAL LAPTOP that you can use ON YOUR LAP. No need for spending more on a keyboard cover, either.

Then again it doesn't have a kickstand. Oh wait--it doesn't NEED one.

Apple has these markets dialed in pretty well. iPads are primarily for media consumption, but can certainly be dual-tasked to be productive. Laptops are productive, but can certainly be dual-tasked for media consumption. While there is ample crossover, form and function should follow primary utility of a product's design. The Surface line to me looks like a mish-mash of trying to make one device do it all. And it probably DOES it all in a clumsy, brutish way, but that's a tough sell vs. Apple's more elegant offerings. Consumers now expect thin, thin, thin, and day-long battery life. Plug-it-in-to-do-real-work is a rough sell, and if any company dares to offer a tablet that costs substantially MORE than an iPad, it had better be absolutely stunning. I think the market thus far has declared the Surface line less than "stunning."

The fact that .15" is the difference in thickness between the Surface Pro 2 (no keyboard cover) and the Macbook Air 11" (w/screen, closed), at least to me, is pretty damning. With a cover in place, aren't they roughly the same thickness? Wouldn't most people, therefore, want aluminum construction and protection of a conventional laptop design rather than a tablet with a flimsy plastic tack-on? For a "productivity first" machine?

Retina displays are dazzling, but for non-graphic-design business productivity they aren't that great an enhancement, IMHO. So the Surface Pro 2's 1080p display fires up more pixels than the 11" Air's (1366 x 768), but does that really matter when writing a report or crunching numbers in a spreadsheet?

If you HAVE to have 1080p for 1080p's sake, Amazon will sell you a Kindle Fire HD for $230.

How exactly does a Macbook Air serve as a tablet? Hasn't the iPad/tablet market shown how this different form of input can bring better experiences in some ways? Why not have a product that has the freedom of traditional PCs with the advantages of a tablet?

And please don't argue the resolution. How is a sharper PPI ever a bad or unnecessary thing when pixels can certainly be discerned by the human eye on the Macbook Air screen?

Furthermore, you are arguing that the Surface is miss-mash, but convergence is the future. That's the basis of a smartphone for example; to do more with one device. Of course I think you should spend more to get the keyboard, which admittedly I got for free with my original Surface simply talking to the sales rep in a store, because that's what completes the convergence. I love having the Surface on its own for media consumption, but when I need to do some serious typing or use Office, just hover the Surface over the keyboard, it snaps into position, and it just works. Win-win.
 
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