Microsoft Bashes Apple's iWork Software, New iPads

[Glideslope]

Remember.....

Ballmer is gone now. Things could change. Tim made those comments for a reason. Not simply for laughter.

 

[jaimeastin]

Your post is a breath of fresh air. Logic and reason amid a sea of team-driven cheerleaders. Thanks.

I come here not just to see and comment on the advantages of one product over another, but the disadvantages as well. I like to hear what people like, and what they don't like. Sadly, most of it ends up being "Apple sucks, die Microsoft, if you don't like Apple, shut up" and very little is substantial.

Fortunately, there are a few that actually want to discuss things, not bash one another.

-PS: The iPad is much more than a toy, given that I see it used professionally in many environments, including my own (large mobile telecom app suport). An SSH app and boom, I'm doing 95% of what I do to earn a living. Not as comfortable as my desk, but sometimes I like to work from my bedroom.

The iPad "is" more than a toy, no disagreement there. For the majority of its users, it is just a toy, or a book, or a computer, or a note taker, media player, and all of them call it an iPad. Use it the way we want to use it. We have many iPads floating around our company and I used to carry one as well.

I love it when we make the product work for us. When it does not, find one that does. It does not mean that one is less than the other in the grand scheme of things. The iPad is a computer. Computers are toys to some and workhorses to others. Some see it as both. Make it work, smile, and keep on moving .

Question is when selecting the device is, what do you want it to be and realistically can it be that. Be it limitations of hardware/software or unrealistic expectations from the user.

Thanks for the comment. I am so put off by negativity on blogs and forums that I usually avoid articles and forum posts. But I know I am not the only one and there are usually many people posting or lurking that want to really discuss, learn, and teach with a group of people who share a similar passion.

In the end, computing is heading in a new direction. We have yet seen what we will be able to do. Think back 5, 10, 15 years ago at what you wanted a computer to do. We don't even know what is to come. In the grand scheme of things, productivity as defined now will be different in a few years. File management will soon be thing of the past. Microsoft and Apple look to being in different directions, but give it a few years it may not seem so.

What will change is how the majority of people interact with the computer. Developers and IT pros will be the only ones doing work with file systems and resources that currently define productivity.

Good Luck to you!

 

[kunai]

Unless of course he is applying to work for the biggest tech company in the world Apple (or for that matter second biggest - google)

Yeah... no. AFAIK, Apple uses enterprise grade ERP for their spreadsheets. I've tried iWork, and its real value lies in Pages and Keynote. Google also use(d) (I believe they've changed to MySQL due to the lawsuit) Oracle ERP solutions.

Numbers is a joke. It's a dead end; people who do nothing more than make charts and graphs will find uses for it.

AppleWorks was way more sophisticated than iWork... and Office is even more so. Those that can't afford ERP use Excel. Fact.

----------

You guys are so blinded by your own emotional attachment to Apple and its products that you have completely lost the ability to actually look at things and use your brains to come to a logical conclusion. The fanboyism on this site has gotten so bad I hardly ever even post anymore.

The new surface is awesome. There. I said it. Good battery life, gorgeous design, the keyboard smart-cover (BACKLIT!) is fantastic, it's got a full feature set, and it's not terribly expensive for what it does.

Now I'm not saying that the iPad is a piece of crap, not by a long shot. They're EXCELLENT toys, and pretty useful tools. The difference is that the Surface is a great tool, and a pretty cool toy. The focus of the device is different, that's all... and in the focus being different, they've solved practically every gripe I have about the iPad. USB drives? Check. Memory cards? Check. File management? Check. These are extremely basic things that a great many users need as a TOOL that most Apple customers don't need because for them the iPad is a TOY.

It's OK to have toys. I have plenty of them. Fun is important. ...but I never bought an iPad because I just couldn't think of any real reason to have one - I have other toys that fill its shoes adequately, and it didn't bring much of anything to the tool department that I needed and a Laptop couldn't fill. ...but the surface? I'm actually thinking about getting one of those.

Bu... bu... but FILESYSTEMS ARE TOO COMPLICATED FOR THE AVERAGE USER. NOBODY NEEDS A FILESYSTEM. DIE HEATHENS.

 

[brianvictor7]

$899?! For full windows, without a type cover? I said to myself, "my god, if that isn't the most expensive tablet ever made," and it isn't appealing to either casual or business customers because it doesn't have Office installed, which makes it not a very good productivity machine out of the box.

Amazing how the tables have turned.

Don't you mean "how the tablets have turned"?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[brianvictor7]

Yeah... no. AFAIK, Apple uses enterprise grade ERP for their spreadsheets. I've tried iWork, and its real value lies in Pages and Keynote. Google also use(d) (I believe they've changed to MySQL due to the lawsuit) Oracle ERP solutions.

Numbers is a joke. It's a dead end; people who do nothing more than make charts and graphs will find uses for it.

AppleWorks was way more sophisticated than iWork... and Office is even more so. Those that can't afford ERP use Excel. Fact.

----------



Bu... bu... but FILESYSTEMS ARE TOO COMPLICATED FOR THE AVERAGE USER. NOBODY NEEDS A FILESYSTEM. DIE HEATHENS.

How I wish Apple would buy up Dropbox and use their system.

 

[r.harris1]

I've worked at couple big 4 accounting firms and have dealt with fortune 100 companies. This might surprise you but I have yet to meet a client who uses Numbers. ERPs.. SAP, MAS, Great Plains is another story but Excel is the gold standard spreadsheet. Shocking eh? They may or may not ask your proficiency in Office during interview. Like you said, they will just throw you an Excel file and expect you to know it.

Yes, for people who live and die by spreadsheets for a living, Excel is absolutely a must-have. I would actually be surprised if you had a client who used Numbers Big-wassnames or otherwise. One of the largest clients I consult for is a fortune 100 company. Numbers or any iWork tool isn't part of the official pantheon of course, but that said, there are plenty of folks who use multiple different tools where appropriate. Quite a lot of folks loathe Excel too. And Word. They aren't always great tools, they're just always there.

Really, it's about the right tool for the right job and the tool that makes you the most productive. And always know lots because you never know what will come your way.

 

[D*I*S_Frontman]

Apple's UI is consistent, but it shouldn't be. As iPad apps demonstrate, a UI should change when there is more screen estate. In terms of iOS, it doesn't. It's just an expanded iPhone UI. Microsoft is the same with Windows and WP trying to be consistent with the tiles, but there is certainly acknowledgement in that system design for the varied screen sizes.

I think the success of iOS proves that consistency over several devices is worth the trade-off.

Anyway, do you honestly prefer having 4 different devices? Not only is that more expensive, but if there is a plausible option to remove the need for at least one of those devices, isn't that worth it? Do you still want that point and shoot camera when you have a good lens on your mobile phone? No...

Yes. I absolutely prefer having the proper tool for the proper job. Your example couldn't illustrate this better. If I'm just taking snapshots and I don't care about the more intricate considerations regarding motion blur, depth of field, perspective, etc., I'll just take my phone. If I want to do something with a bit more control and nuance, however, I'll grab the SLR.

If I am taking my younger daughter somewhere and want to keep her distracted, I'll bring an iPad with earbuds. If my older daughter wants to work on homework, I'll bring my MBP. Lots of scenarios in which I'd like to choose the right product for the right application.

And the Surface isn't just "plausible". It's actually good. If you think different, then the only way to achieve this perfect device joining the worlds of a tablet and boundless PC is to at least try a design and improve upon it. That's what Microsoft is doing.

I just see so much potential in having a single device that I can take with me to uni encompassing full-featured PC apps optimised for either touch or mouse/keyboard (whichever is more relevant), which also fulfils my entertainment needs and has all my stuff on. I don't see what else I'd want or need...

Enjoy the Surface, then. I get the feeling that you'll soon be able to pick up even the Pro 2 at blowout prices soon enough.

 

[Oracle1729]

This is precisely the issue I personally have with Apple. It's their way it the highway. So glad they finally got full screen windows on their computers. Welcome to the 80's.

Exactly, I know of exactly 4 people who have upgraded to iOS 7, all four wish they could go back to 6. Even when you get to used to the new UI, it's buggy, one got hit by the disappearing inbox, another by disappearing notes. All four complain their apps keep crashing, their battery life is in the toilet, etc.

But apple says they have to stick with 7, so they're screwed. I'm not going to open a 6 vs 7 debate, but locking everyone into apple's way or the highway is just plain bad for everyone.

 

[Tech198]

....and Microsoft does't have a clear future to go towards.


Hybrid PC's/tablets ?? What the hell...

talking about mixing it up.. "You have a keyboard right in front of you sir, why do you want to touch your screen?."

 

[9000]

They are probably using an outdated version. If they haven't updated a free app like Acrobat, then they probably aren't going to have the latest version of Word either.

I know that it CAN get outdated, but I have no idea HOW. Preview on a 2003 iMac running Panther can read any PDF I throw at it, and Adobe's PDF readers somehow have compatibility problems (and security holes).

----------

Fonts are changed sonetimes, margins are eliminated or obscured, charts don't translate at all....Pages is just underpowered for sharing a real report.

I use Pages with Dropbox to share files between my 2008 Mac Pro running Mavericks and 2006 MacBook running Snow Leopard every day, and it's always been totally fine.

 

[Vegasman]

And then Microsoft releases earnings and negates 95% of the comments on this post

 

[osofast240sx]

Funny coming from a guy who doesn't own one. I actually do, and have gotten over 8 hours using web, Access, Excel and OneNote. You know, real work. But don't let facts stop you from spreading FUD.

They are facts because you say it? Mabey I dont believe u! Your the only one that gets 8 hours and all the reviews are inaccurate yeah right.

 

[SusanK]

Really, it's about the right tool for the right job and the tool that makes you the most productive. And always know lots because you never know what will come your way.

Yes, the right tool for the purpose. I just picked up my iPad again for the zillion time today to retrieve some information. I'm just a person with a small life. Day to day things to tend to.

For me the iPad is so handy. I love notes! Notes and calculator make it with the cost to me. Everything else is gravy.

Notes app is so much more convenient that the tack of yellow legal pads I used previously for various projects notes.

If it's really important I still use the old paper legal pad and keep it by the phone for noting calls. Ongoing insurance claim now. Ugh!

Clearly I am not a power user for iPad. It's the right tool for me. So much info on one iPad that it never leaves the house. Don't want to risk losing it unless it's fire, B&E etc.

 

[knewsom]

I agree on many counts. I think Microsoft is getting there with Surface; it checks all the right boxes. And the OS is innovative: it looks NOTHING like iOS. I think, at the very least, it is worth a look to see if it's for me. However, the 16:9 screen may be a deal breaker, as I prefer the iPad's 4:3 setup. And the iPad's app ecosystem just cannot be underestimated.

If I get one, it'd really be for me and me only, where the iPad would be more of a family device (missing user accounts be damned). So Microsoft is trying to reach a different kind of user: power/ semi advanced users that want that one device to rule them all. I'll be checking it out more closely, now that I'm somewhat disillusioned with iOS new stylistic direction (aesthetics are #1 for me).

I actually really like the idea of being able to have different user accounts on a tablet - one for my kid, one for my wife, one for me... my Windows Phone already has a kids mode which only contains things I put in it - amazingly convenient. I actually quite like the 16x9 display, though if I had any wishes it'd be for 16x10.

While certainly the iOS app ecosystem is undoubtedly larger and better, the WP and RT apps have come a long, LONG way - I won't say I want for nothing with my Nokia, but I'm very nearly there... and with Nokia having just announced their own RT tablet, I see many good apps in the future for the platform.

 

[BaldiMac]

I'm not going to open a 6 vs 7 debate, but locking everyone into apple's way or the highway is just plain bad for everyone.

And yet Apple consistently enjoys the highest consumer satisfaction ratings across its product lines. Maybe your opinion isn't as universal as you think it is.

 

[mschmalenbach]

So why is the Surface not selling? I was always under the impression that great products always find the market. But the need to be great. So far the Surface fails on that account.

Great products don't always find the market. For example, Betamax is a superior vide standard compared to VHS. It's the standard (slightly modified) that is used within the broadcast industry. But VHS just had a few more customers early compared to Betamax. So when people asked around for what video standard to buy in to, they were more likely to come across people who recommended Betamax. So they'd buy VHS. The next person to ask around would now be asking a society where there are now even more VHS than Betamax users, so it spiralled - a positive feedback mechanism.

The Surface may be suffering (how would we measure, I don't know) by association with MS - people in general want really intuitive, easy-to-use devices. They really don't care about the technology inside. They may have had direct experience of previous MS devices that were not intuitive nor easy to use, and so go for the Apple solution over the MS one, even though the MS one typically gives you more, such as expandable memory etc.

So we can see that clearly price alone isn't important otherwise MS would not have had to write-down $900M of unsold Surface devices. Clearly tech features etc alone isn't everything otherwise Apple devices would be dead in the water.

Why people buy, and how, is not a simple, nor exact science, as MS has been finding out recently the hard way, and I suspect Apple might be about to experience some similar lessons...

----------

I actually really like the idea of being able to have different user accounts on a tablet - one for my kid, one for my wife, one for me... my Windows Phone already has a kids mode which only contains things I put in it - amazingly convenient. I actually quite like the 16x9 display, though if I had any wishes it'd be for 16x10.

While certainly the iOS app ecosystem is undoubtedly larger and better, the WP and RT apps have come a long, LONG way - I won't say I want for nothing with my Nokia, but I'm very nearly there... and with Nokia having just announced their own RT tablet, I see many good apps in the future for the platform.

I hope so, really I do.

I'm an avid fan of the Apple products I have. AND I've had some very good Windows based products (Xp and Win 7 plus great laptops from Dell and Asus over the years).

I really want there to be real competition, THAT is what is best for everyone, surely? I don't want Apple to get complacent & arrogant, and I don't want MS to fail and only do 'corporate boring stuff'...

 

[Liquorpuki]

So why is the Surface not selling? I was always under the impression that great products always find the market. But the need to be great. So far the Surface fails on that account.

Surface is not selling because MS marketing sucks. So many missteps I'm not even gonna bother. Even Shaw is oblivious to his company's brand perception. He doesn't realize when he talks, it comes across as arrogance rather than insight

Contrast with Apple marketing, who's able to get millions of people to pay $40-50 for a piece of polyeurethane, by calling it "smart" and gushing about how beautiful it is

 

[southernpaws]

Interesting, I will have a look . Is web iWork free to use for anyone? What is the URL?

I think it's wide open to anyone who has an iCloud account. Otherwise, someone can email you a link for a file and you could work on it based on that invitation. If you know anyone who uses new iwork/icloud, have them share a file with you

 

[cgsnipinva]

Yes, for people who live and die by spreadsheets for a living, Excel is absolutely a must-have. I would actually be surprised if you had a client who used Numbers Big-wassnames or otherwise. One of the largest clients I consult for is a fortune 100 company. Numbers or any iWork tool isn't part of the official pantheon of course, but that said, there are plenty of folks who use multiple different tools where appropriate. Quite a lot of folks loathe Excel too. And Word. They aren't always great tools, they're just always there.

Really, it's about the right tool for the right job and the tool that makes you the most productive. And always know lots because you never know what will come your way.

I am an Excel power user - i use it to perform analyses on data i query from data warehouses (Oracle, DB2, and SQL Server) for financial management and logistical/Supply chain systems. The most used functionality is Vlookup, Hlookup, filters, and pivot tables. Numbers has all of those except pivot tables. I would wager that Apple would include that in a future release. Other than pivot tables the only other capability is regression analysis - but that is used much more rarely. While Numbers is not yet to Excel parity - it is getting close.

Here is where I think Microsoft may be concerned enough about iWork to put out such a childish blog post. This last revision appears to have been a significant re-write to bring back-end compatibility between the iCloud and client versions of iWork. In that, sense future functional enhancements can be made quickly in parallel. Just as Google Drive started out with rudimentary features - it quickly added additional features over time. The Google spreadsheet has all the aforementioned functional capabilities that are critical to power uses. However, it is held back because it is in the cloud alone.

Apple is approaching the mid-ground between the Microsoft and Google model. Having both a client application and a cloud application with feature parity - could grow into a serious threat against MS - particularly if it is part of an ecosystem that goes from desktop/laptop, to tablet and phone.

Microsoft's approach is still client app centric. It's web based apps are really different from their client applications. For now - MS Office is the gold standard - but the environment is not standing still. Hence the fear.

 

[Marc-SP]

For one, the whole idea of an operating system designed specifically for a mobile touchscreen device running on hardware optimized for it. Another is a touchscreen that actually worked.

Are you serious? I am sorry, but I think you don't know what you are talking about.
What happened to all the things Palm or even MS did long time before? All of them were designed for mobile 100% (PalmOS, Windows CE/Mobile), and the touch screen were fully functional (resistive technology was more popular then, but thats it). I had a Windows mobile 5 device and I really could do many things and quite well with it. The technology was more primitive than iPhone, but it was the same that would have been available to Apple at that time (also, see Apple Newton a few years before).

And I recognize that iPhone and iPad opened new markets and were ground breaking products when they were released, but they not invented mobile OSs or working touchscreens. Not at all.

The Surface isn't a bad tablet and it does a very limited number of things better than the iPad--but the iPad does most things as good as or better than the surface for now. If the surface meets your needs then you should buy it--but its clear that most people aren't. Considering how much money Microsoft is bleeding right now.

Short list of "very limited" things Surface 2 (not-pro) does better than iPad :

1. Watching video in widescreen (eg. netflix),
2. Multitasting (eg. check info on a website while on the side write email),
3. Showing key information without the need to enter in every app (via live tiles),
4. Arrange and resize tiles to customize the start screen according to your needs (eg. make important things or things that shows info on the tile, such as twitter or facebook, bigger)
5. Standing on a table or lap with the kickstand,
6. Office files creation and editing (for better or worse Office is the standard),
7. Typing with the optional but very well integrated keyboards (iPad has third part keyboards but most waste battery with bluetooth and are not backlit, aside form being thicker and heavier),

But, as you said, to each its own.

----------

So, do you need some matches? A candle? We're embarassed for you.

Buy a dog . It seems you need someone. Bye.

 

[Marc-SP]

I think it's wide open to anyone who has an iCloud account. Otherwise, someone can email you a link for a file and you could work on it based on that invitation. If you know anyone who uses new iwork/icloud, have them share a file with you

I tried it and... it really is a great web app! It is superior to anything I have seen before, but I hope that it will not be the case for a long time. I love the competition between tech companies!

 

[polbit]

Thank you for sharing. The value of screen real-estate is hard to underestimate. Do you feel that the Surface is just easier to carry around and setup? Why have both? (Fishing for rationales).

Well, it's definitely a huge factor as a 15" laptop is still a 15" laptop More importantly though, currently the Surface replaced not only my iPad and a crappy work Dell laptop, but also added few interesting usage scenarios - I've been taking a lot of hand-written notes on it with the stylus and the touch keyboard is silent and great in meetings.

In my day-to-day, my MBP has basically become what my desktop PC used to be - the big, powerful PC that you use when you need it all. The SP2 has become the small and lean convergence device that can cover most of my needs.

 

[dysamoria]

Yes, because you didn't have a device like an iPad [Or Galaxy, or whatever else you prefer] in your hand at age 11 or 12. Just like I didn't have a laptop when I was 11 or 12, because they didn't even exist. Meaning, that as kids are exposed to these technologies they'll eventually dictate how companies will adapt new technologies.

You cannot touch type on a tablet. If YOU can, or if you know someone who CAN, and they're just as fast and accurate as someone on a physical keyboard, then i want to know how it's done, because i cannot see it. This is the problem that iOS devices have always had with games. Controls suck. So what do we finally have? An API for physical controllers and products coming to market for that.

 

[Marc-SP]

To YOU. If you ask a 17 or 20 year old, I'm sure the answer will be much different.

What works for you, may not work for everyone.

I can see the future... reports written on the phone with one thumb, with sentences like "LOL Thx 4 msg UR a qt having c%l time"

 

[dysamoria]

The most used functionality is Vlookup, Hlookup, filters, and pivot tables. Numbers has all of those except pivot tables. I would wager that Apple would include that in a future release. Other than pivot tables the only other capability is regression analysis - but that is used much more rarely. While Numbers is not yet to Excel parity - it is getting close.

Check again. They might have removed all that in iWork 2013. It still doesn't have pivot tables.

Here is where I think Microsoft may be concerned enough about iWork to put out such a childish blog post. This last revision appears to have been a significant re-write to bring back-end compatibility between the iCloud and client versions of iWork.

No, not really. Apple just ported the iOS versions to Mac OS X and trashed the existing Mac OS X versions. That's why so many features that USED to be there are now GONE.

In that, sense future functional enhancements can be made quickly in parallel. Just as Google Drive started out with rudimentary features - it quickly added additional features over time. The Google spreadsheet has all the aforementioned functional capabilities that are critical to power uses. However, it is held back because it is in the cloud alone.

Apple is approaching the mid-ground between the Microsoft and Google model. Having both a client application and a cloud application with feature parity - could grow into a serious threat against MS - particularly if it is part of an ecosystem that goes from desktop/laptop, to tablet and phone.

True, but they might have been better off to hold off on it a few more months to get more features from the EXISTING VERSION of iWork apps into the new cross-platform version, rather than promote this new version as an upgrade when it is actually a REGRESSION. Because of the regression, Microsoft isn't wrong in calling iWork watered down. It was already to begin with, but it was VERY CLOSE to being RIGHT. Now it has lost so much that it had and they are arrogantly promoting it as an upgrade. Apple is NOT servicing actual professionals with their software. If not for third party software, at this point, there would really be strong argument for NOT using Apple hardware in a workplace (and i say this HATING both Windows, PCs, and Linux).

----------

I can see the future... reports written on the phone with one thumb, with sentences like "LOL Thx 4 msg UR a qt having c%l time"

What does that even mean? What's a qt?

EDIT: nevermind. sounded it out.