iPads (pro or not) are not for productivity, they are still enlarged iPhones and until we see different os for iPads this will never change, anyone saying otherwise simply never actually been productive or don't know what it's like to be productive.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Microsoft Executive Says iPad Pro Was Apple's Response to Surface
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Its a computer yes, I'll obviously not argue that, but its not as powerful, or flexibly as a desktop/laptop. In other words for it cannot replace a laptop and offer the same experience, features, or performance.
For instance, the iPad lacks the ability to hook up to a wide variety of peripherals, such a USB and TB devices or use multiple displays. The iPad does not have a fully exposed files system (though iOS 11 helps but its files app is not as feature rich as the Finder). Many apps on the iPad are not as powerful as they are on the desktop, i.e., photoshop, Lightroom, MS Office, etc. With the lack of mouse support, I find using GotomyPC on the iPad to be downright painful. Yes, I can remotely connect to a computer by way of the iPad but its a difficult proposition.
Then there's the actual running of apps, I can have GotomyPC, Excel, Safari, Mail, Chrome, Lightroom open and running, using two monitors. At best the iPad can only split its screen in two. I find it quite easy to pull information from one app to another or attach any file type in a mail message. and again iOS 11 is improving that aspect but it doesn't approach the ease of a desktop/laptop
I'm not knocking the iPad, I just bought an iPad Pro and I'm loving it, but make no mistake, its ability has not broached that of the desktop (or laptop) computer. The latest iPad pro is an evolutionary step in that direction, but its not there.
For instance, the iPad lacks the ability to hook up to a wide variety of peripherals, such a USB and TB devices or use multiple displays. The iPad does not have a fully exposed files system (though iOS 11 helps but its files app is not as feature rich as the Finder). Many apps on the iPad are not as powerful as they are on the desktop, i.e., photoshop, Lightroom, MS Office, etc. With the lack of mouse support, I find using GotomyPC on the iPad to be downright painful. Yes, I can remotely connect to a computer by way of the iPad but its a difficult proposition.
Then there's the actual running of apps, I can have GotomyPC, Excel, Safari, Mail, Chrome, Lightroom open and running, using two monitors. At best the iPad can only split its screen in two. I find it quite easy to pull information from one app to another or attach any file type in a mail message. and again iOS 11 is improving that aspect but it doesn't approach the ease of a desktop/laptop
I'm not knocking the iPad, I just bought an iPad Pro and I'm loving it, but make no mistake, its ability has not broached that of the desktop (or laptop) computer. The latest iPad pro is an evolutionary step in that direction, but its not there.
Last edited by a moderator:
Remember thought too, I/O and drives means more security/virus risks. So far I haven't seen a need/app for virus protection on a iPad.
You can thanks Apple's closed garden approach for that. It has happened, but its a rarity. Jail broken devices are more at risk, since they bypass the apple app store and give the ability to side load non-approved apps.
So you are basing your opinion from something two generations old; and at a time when Apple didn't have a comparable device at all? Most of the things you mentioned were improved on that device, and greatly so on current generation. Not sure why you'd want to run Google Maps on this... I would run it on my phone if I needed navigation; and if you don't you can certainly run the web based version for planning. The latest pen works very well.
How could you say the Surface Pro never had any influence? Microsoft initially produced it as a "reference platform", to show what could be done. It was the inspiration for all the hybrid devices that have been developed by Windows computer makers; and I strongly believe one of the reasons Apple did the iPad Pro. Jobs was all about the finger... and the pencil would not have aligned with his whole iPad thinking that he described at the iPad launch.
I completely disagree that Apple has "finally figured it out". Its taken them how many years to add a file manager and drag-n-drop? When many people would like to say a full function OS like MacOS available on the platform to run full function apps? If you want to do a basic business function like build a complex spreadsheet and aggregate data from numerous sources (something the vast majority of business users do daily), you aren't going to do it on the iPad Pro easily. No bigger screen support. No mouse/trackpad support. No ability to open many things at the same time and compare. No peripheral support. This stuff is basic needs for a device you are going to produce on. The iPad Pro is still primarily a consumption device with some ability to do simple production. I don't see that changing with the new OS update. It will do what it does better, but not much more.
Security and convenience are opposing forces. iOS is more secure because its locked down and doesn't provide the openness and ability of a full function OS. So it stands to reason it has more security. But the business world somehow has managed to survive running primarily Windows, even though its the biggest target because its the most widely used computer OS (not including phone OSes obviously).
I love my iPad pro but it will never be a actual personal computer until apple allows native mouse support.
I love it, too. However, it will never be my only computer unless they give it a 15 inch screen and that would ruin it as a tablet. I know Apple is marketing this as some sort of replacement to a 5 year old PC. Yet, they still sell laptops, so they know it isn't the ideal fit for a lot of people.
My personal choice is to have devices that aren't compromises. The Surface has taken the point that people want one device that has multiple compromises compared with two purpose built devices. I do think that is a market, but I also think there is a market for those that are willing to carry 5 pounds when they travel to have the benefit of getting a 15 inch screen and a tablet with an OS built around multi-touch.
I do think they need to add mouse input on the iPad for those willing to live with the compromises for certain tasks. However, I don't expect it will ever fully replace my 15 inch MBP.
As a side note, I have a 15 inch Toshiba that runs Windows 10 and it has touch input and the keyboard folds back so you can use it as a tablet. It is an awful tablet experience. It works better as a regular laptop, but I prefer MacOS and the Apple ecosystem (messages, photos, notifications, cut and paste from iOS, etc.)
There are always compromises. The compromise you are making is spending twice the cash and carrying twice the equipment of someone with a single device that does both tablet and laptop. And there are other compromises beyond that. One is that your 15" laptop is too big to reasonably use in a plane; and you can't use it at all during takeoff and landing. Another is that you have to sync stuff between the devices meaning your file isn't always where you want it. Having everything in one package has a lot of benefits.
Of course a 15" 360 degree hinged touch screen laptop is an awful tablet. It would be a nightmare to hold and use as a tablet. That is why I like the Surface Pro... its not too big and heavy to use as a tablet. The Surface Pro weighs just a tad more than the original iPad.
Personally, I don't have to work on airplanes, so if that is an issue, it has never affected me. I prefer using the iPad when I fly.
I don't mind paying more to get the right tool for the job. It is why I use steak knives or butcher knives when the job calls for it instead of using a Swiss Army knife or result to tearing apart food with my hands. If I wanted a laptop that is awful in the lap, has a screen that is too small for the things I want to do, and a tablet that is tablet-app-starved and too big, then I would get the Surface. As it is, it is like a Swiss Army knife, but it doesn't have the one killer feature of fitting in a pocket.
While I do have to use the cloud to sync files on occasion (I haven't ever had an issue with it), I get the added benefit of being able to use Apple Pay, messages, get notifications, take calls, etc. In other words, the things I need in front of me all the time are there without needing to also have my phone out to see what is happening or responding.
As I said, the Surface has a market. I am sure if I traveled all the time and could not find any way to carry a tablet and a MacBook, I would get one. As it is, it is just too much a compromise for the way I use both my laptop and tablet. As I said, I like a bigger screen for photos, video, spreadsheets, etc. I also like using the same apps on my tablet that I have on my phone. It makes it easier to pick up any device and start where I left off. Also, I prefer MacOS/iOS to Windows, but I can run Windows 10 easily on my MBP using VMware Fusion, so it is there when I need it (which is less often now than ever).
I think what I was trying to say is that if I was on the go and needed full computer capabilities, I'd prefer to just carry a standard laptop with me, vs. *either* a Surface Pro or iPad Pro. The SP4 doesn't address all of my "on the go" needs nearly as well as a traditional laptop does, with its "only 1 USB port", flimsy keyboard cover as the main input device, built-in Micro SD card reader instead of a regular SD card reader, and other issues. An iPad Pro doesn't either, with again, a flimsy keyboard cover type keyboard, apps generally designed to be "light" versions of full blown apps for computers, limited mass storage options, etc.
But yes, at least half the time when I'm out and about, my needs could be met with just a tablet form-factor device. And in those situations, the iPad would be my preference. (EG. Had to travel to a remote office recently to take inventory of their computer hardware. Using the iPad with "Numbers" as the spreadsheet to key it all in worked great. I just uploaded the finished spreadsheet to DropBox afterwards, so everyone else who needed it could access it.)
But yes, at least half the time when I'm out and about, my needs could be met with just a tablet form-factor device. And in those situations, the iPad would be my preference. (EG. Had to travel to a remote office recently to take inventory of their computer hardware. Using the iPad with "Numbers" as the spreadsheet to key it all in worked great. I just uploaded the finished spreadsheet to DropBox afterwards, so everyone else who needed it could access it.)
No need for one. They already sell more and have a better product after iOS 11 settles in the surface will die.
Great, its much smaller than the normal PC laptops, Intel Core i7. Great stylus, runs ALL native windows apps, connects to mouse keyboard and a 32" 4K display. I can take it to meetings then plug it back and continue working on a huge screen.
[doublepost=1498011271][/doublepost]
That's great, my daughter is a fan of the iPad. Are you using it more of a show and tell though? I'm using it as a full time development machine
[doublepost=1498011348][/doublepost]
cute reply, pretty empty though isn't it. What exactly DO you do on it, please.. don't tell me email and a few notes. You can do that on an iPhone.
I can login and manage my MDM site and devices, remote desktop to check on servers and workstations, e-mail, etc. For a sys-admin, you can do quite a bit with an iPad. Whatever I can't do there, I do on a Thinkpad. Have a Surfacebook sitting in the drawer collecting dust, and a stack of Surface Pro's that nobody wants. The T470 is a much better laptop, and the iPad is a much better tablet.
Good luck with that. If you read the market analysis reports from IDC and others, the "slate" market is declining rapidly and the only part of the tablet market that is expanding at a healthy clip is the "detachable" market. That is the market the Surface line created. The iPad Pro was a follower in this regard. Time will tell of course, but iOS 11 really does nothing to expand the iPad's market... simply gives a few more features to those that already use it. I predict the iPad market will continue to decline; and the collective "detachable" market will expand. That market includes the Surface Pro, and all the other similar products from other Windows computer makers. You need to look at that group together, not just simply the Surface Pro.
I have two iPads in the drawer collecting dust, and prefer to carry one device instead of two to get my work done. Different options for different user preferences.
I can create a big complex spreadsheet on an iPad Pro, but I'd rather go to the dentist than do it that way. I prefer to do it on a real computer with a pointing device and a big screen. I can do that on Surface Pro, and then when I want to carry it with me I just go. With your approach, you would need to switch from your Thinkpad to your iPad Pro to accomplish the same, and carry two devices with you everywhere that doubles weight, cost, opportunity for sync problems, etc.. All the things I need to "consume" such as news (USA Today app is great), YouTube, Netflix, web browsing, etc.. work just fine on the Surface Pro.
Choice is not a bad thing. My wife lives on her iPad. Its all she needs because her total usage is email, web, and looking at pictures from her phone. I have no use for an iPad. I have an iPhone where I do the "app" thing. And I have my Surface Pro where I do work and larger screen consumption.
If you are happy carrying around three devices (phone, tablet, laptop), then that's great. Doesn't work for me.
I don't carry them around, for what it's worth. I do my work mostly on a Windows PC, on the Thinkpad. The iPad is around in the evenings, when I want to do things that are much better suited to a tablet. I believe the iPad is better for that (for my needs), and the T470 is better for the laptop things (for my needs). The Surface (for my needs) does both of these tasks worse than either device individually (for me). I think we can agree to disagree.
Not really disagreeing... I would possibly do the same thing you are doing in your use cases. Its hard to keep track of who is in the dialog in these long threads. My position regarding the Surface Pro is the use case of a traveling professional. Some folks in here are saying they'd rather travel with an iPad Pro and a full sized laptop; than to combine into one. That is definitely a personal preference which I disagree with. The good news is that we live in a time where there are many great choices and options.
The business customers they're very slowly starting to piss off because of the many business practises they've been doing recently in regards to Windows 10 and lack of quality in Windows 8/8.1 that many had to skip. There's no need to talk about them in detail as I'm sure most of us probably watch the IT industry with a very close eye. It's a slow death for sure, but it's the big corporates who keep them alive (apart from IBM). SMBs/Creators have been jumping over to Mac's/iPads for a long while now. I feel Microsoft are not appreciating their customers and trying to bulldose over where they were strongest for a long time. Then take them for granted. I've never questioned whether Microsoft's huge play in business world isn't healthy or not. It's playing fire with everyone who is a customer of theirs at the moment.
The latest Surface lines of products demonstrates their lack of understanding in where they're at. Consumers played a huge role for at least a decade (90s) and made them the biggest tech company. The original Surface was too expensive. The Surface Pro is push up to fit the Surface in. That in turn is a limited device until you pay more money to get what users really want (non-Store apps etc). Surface Book is a brave rethink but confusing device that really doesn't hit any target market. Then Studio product has nice, but doesn't include anything groundbreaking for content creators (nor future proofing tech). Even businesses find it difficult to justify them over OEM equivalents as Dell, Lenovo and the rest move much faster. The iPad knows where it sits and the iPad Pro extends the lift of the iOS platform within the tablet space (where everyone else has moved on and given up into hybrids). Yes, it's limiting but there's good software that's been built for it and keeps getting updated/upgraded during iOS lifecycles.
Apple took a different turn with regards to business. Sink the XServe/Server Software lines (probably didnt make much profit). Then come into the business sector with different product lines in iOS lineup (iPhones/iPads). That in turn gave them a dent in the business world (especially amongst the social media, marketing and practical function types - the developer/engineering side are catching on slowly). Yes, they screwed with their creative types with the lack of Mac Pro (modular Mac) updates or progress. Whether they'll catch up with their iMac Pro lines, I think it'll be limited. Especially getting a feeling from creatives out there publically that are almost willing to give Apple up for their next update.
To say Microsoft are making in-roads again is ignorant. They're making the same mistakes on system design. Software design. Business practises. Nothing making me as a techie wanting to come back to buying a PC or Microsoft hardware product for a long time.
Display scaling? Give me a break. After so many editions of Windows (7 to 10) and huge adoption in post-HD screens early on; they've got it so wrong. These things hurt business/pro users. TBH, all users if you decide to get a +HD screen. I have to work around the issues as Microsoft products are part of my work life. I'd fall back on a Mac any day at the moment if I had the choice. Although I admit the fall back is getting smaller by the day with Apple's choices to screw with customers on the MacBook lines.
Well... thats one opinion... but certainly not one i share...!
MS are rocking it of late with apple just feeling stale.
MS are rocking it of late with apple just feeling stale.
Wow, it's hard to know where to begin. Since I teach leadership and productivity, let me give some examples of how I have used an iPad productivity:
1. Managing task lists and project timelines
2. Reading and taking notes on research from scholarly library databases
3. Writing articles for publication
4. Reading and writing emails to staff
5. Outlining for later writing
6. Using Keynote to edit and share presentations
7. Learning another language
8. Note taking with drafts or Evernote
9. Editing photographs
10. Sharing a draft video I am working on with a coworker
Etc., etc.
iPad Pros are still limited toys. Sadly they're not even good for something as basic as media consumption since out-of-the-box they lack mainstream media playback acceleration such as HEVC and VP9 that the competitors have had for years. My iPads are only good for entertaining children when I have guests otherwise they just collect dust.
Well call me ignorant then! I frankly don't agree with 95% of what you've said here.
Creatives WERE 100% in the Apple camp and they are more and more jumping to Microsoft. For you to say they are jumping to Apple is crazy because they were all in the Apple camp... if they are jumping, there is only one direction to go. If you look at who is producing more innovative products for them right now, its Microsoft. Apple continues to ride on their prior success by popping out mediocre pro product updates. That's getting a bit stale.
You do understand that the "OEM equivalents" that you speak of are part of the Microsoft market, right? Microsoft is not trying to be the only hardware producer for their software... their Surface line is intended to inspire the OEMs to create alternatives. They win either way. You don't seem to understand Microsoft is a software company first. Also, the Surface Pro comes with full Windows 10, so you don't need to "pay more money to get what users really want". They now have two different versions of Windows 10 that serve two different markets... that isn't a bad thing. There are plenty of people that Windows 10s will work well for.
I'm not sure what to tell you if you don't see a vast improvement in Microsoft's offerings in the enterprise over the last few years, vs. where they were at back when Ballmer was at the helm. They own the enterprise space and are successfully shifting enterprises to their cloud offerings which is a win/win; and keeps their future revenue stream quite promising. Microsoft is trying new things and some will be success, and some will fail. That's the way the markets work.
Apple has become primarily a smartphone company, looking for other ecosystem enhancements to keep the pipeline going. If you don't believe that, then look at their quarterly reports and tell me what the company would be if the iPhone went away.
Very detailed. Well, business customers. In my experience, it depends on the business. Business practices have been changed. In the firm in which I work at, people used to have a desktop with Windows installed, a Blackberry, and could borrow a Windows laptop when travelling.
Today, it is not that different. People have Windows laptops, and can use their own phones for email (instead of Blackberry). They can also install the firm's software on their iPads or Macs.
People like to use their own devices. Macs, iPads, Galaxies, and so on. But the firm relies heavily on Microsoft.
All computers have Windows installed and this is not changing. The reason? Plenty. Windows laptops are far cheaper than Macs; they run every software needed; people usually know how to use them as most have one at home (even those who own a Mac); and they have cheaper support.
The firm also uses Microsoft Office. Word for text, Excel for spreadsheets, PowerPoint for presentations, and Outlook for email. We use it because it is reliable, everybody in the market uses (a kind of standard), all supplements are available for it, and it is easier to find support.
So, all the infrastructure seems to be there. All other options are seen as a nightmare to administrators and IT. Linux, macOS, LibreOffice, iWork. This just will not do into the office. It would be operation nightmare. It is already difficult everyone bringing its own device and making it work properly. My IT has headaches with it.
Windows is not going anywhere, and neither is Microsoft. And to be fair, Microsoft is really doing something bold and showing improvements. Like, Windows running on ARM was pretty impressive. I haven't seen anybody pull out anything like this before. Maybe Apple has some prototype of macOS running on Apple A10 or something, but we can only speculate as there is nothing real on this yet.
I disagree, my iPad can easily play any media I need too, I run apps like excel and PDF Expert. Yes, the iPad is more limited then the surface or other convertible laptops, but they are not limited toys by a long shot.
I have owned or still own, Surface Pros, Surface Books and MBPs, along with a new iPad Pro, and I'm amazed at the power, features and abilities of the iPad. Its a great tablet and I'm enjoying using it every day. I'm not backing away from my earlier words that a Surface Pro can do more, because it can. The iPad does not have access to peripherals like the SP/SB can, nor are the apps on iOS as full featured, but the iPad is still a great tablet. If I were to compare using a Surface Pro/Surface Book in tablet form (no keyboard) and compare that with the iPad, then the iPad wins, easily.