Microsoft Introduces Thinner Surface Pro 3 with 12" Display Starting at $799

[Hyper-X]

I don't think you're understanding my point. You could integrate those features into one product but then you'll likely end up with more of a jack of all trades unit that may end up being more pricey and not necessarily better focused towards its strengths. IMHO it's better to specialize than globalize on its benefits.

Ultra books to include the MBA will always have one major advantage, if you intend on doing a ton of typing whether it's for reports, research, homework, coding or documents, no tablet device will compare regardless of SP or iPad. The next plus for ultra books would be CPU power, and I don't think tablets should be targeting to match or surpass laptops/desktop CPU performance as it's not best suited for those tasks.

The SP beats out the iPad in several ways which I think iOS really needs, media and content sharing between mobile devices and laptops. AirDrop is limited to between iOS users only and without WiFi you're hampered (hoping Apple will allow for iOS to OS X integration). SP has similar limitations for wireless transfer but it gets around it through USB flash drives. There's a kickstarter project which intends on providing a lightning to USB flash drive product though.

 

[tdale]

I don't think you're understanding my point. You could integrate those features into one product but then you'll likely end up with more of a jack of all trades unit that may end up being more pricey and not necessarily better focused towards its strengths. IMHO it's better to specialize than globalize on its benefits.

Ultra books to include the MBA will always have one major advantage, if you intend on doing a ton of typing whether it's for reports, research, homework, coding or documents, no tablet device will compare regardless of SP or iPad. The next plus for ultra books would be CPU power, and I don't think tablets should be targeting to match or surpass laptops/desktop CPU performance as it's not best suited for those tasks.

The SP beats out the iPad in several ways which I think iOS really needs, media and content sharing between mobile devices and laptops. AirDrop is limited to between iOS users only and without WiFi you're hampered (hoping Apple will allow for iOS to OS X integration). SP has similar limitations for wireless transfer but it gets around it through USB flash drives. There's a kickstarter project which intends on providing a lightning to USB flash drive product though.

I don't disagree overall.

What I am getting at, is say my rMBP at home. Say it was an 11 MBA. Say I can open the lid, press a button and pull the screen off, and I now have an iPad. That would be seamless in terms of both devices. As you say and I certainly agree, iOS needs to be set free. Not that is needs open file system, SD slots, etc, etc, it needs to have the same network functions as a MBA/MBP/iMac/PC not the half a*se crippled networking it has. It needs to stay as iOS as thats lite and clean, but remove the rest of the cripple. Add pen or BT mouse capability. It will never match a laptop/desktop, but its main problem is not the size or touchscreen, its the cutdown functions. When Androiders say iToy, an amount of that is correct. It dosnt need to be

 

[Liquorpuki]

I don't think any device should be targeting the goal of having it all into a single tablet. Think about what a tablet offers in terms of advantages over using a smartphone or laptop. A tablet should focus on those strengths IMHO.

The majority of iPad users I've seen uses it primarily as a movie player. Parents use it as a movie/gaming device for their kids. I haven't seen much in terms of heavy business use other than using it as a viewer for documents and slide decks.

My take is iPad users use their tablet primarily is a consumption device because the iPad sucked at all the other stuff from the beginning. Lot of this is Apple's fault. IE they stuck an OS on there that eliminated the pointer yet practically every piece of productivity software out there has roots in desktop, with a GUI built on the pointer.

Then people just projected the iPad's shortcomings as, that's the way tablets are supposed to be, instead of seeing weakness and room for improvement

 

[tdale]

My take is iPad users use their tablet primarily is a consumption device because the iPad sucked at all the other stuff from the beginning. Lot of this is Apple's fault. IE they stuck an OS on there that eliminated the pointer yet practically every piece of productivity software out there has roots in desktop, with a GUI built on the pointer.

Then people just projected the iPad's shortcomings as, that's the way tablets are supposed to be, instead of seeing weakness and room for improvement

I have never heard that "the iPad's shortcomings as, that's the way tablets are supposed to be"

There is a need for a pointer, whether that be an innovative soft pointer or a stylus. Maybe mouse capability. Therte is no need for access to the file system. Networking, and any other shortcoming needs to be the same ability as OSX.

 

[Liquorpuki]

I have never heard that "the iPad's shortcomings as, that's the way tablets are supposed to be"

There is a need for a pointer, whether that be an innovative soft pointer or a stylus. Maybe mouse capability. Therte is no need for access to the file system. Networking, and any other shortcoming needs to be the same ability as OSX.

You've never heard people say tablets are primarily consumption devices?

 

[tdale]

You've never heard people say tablets are primarily consumption devices?

Correct, they are primarily consumption devices. Thats not a shortcoming, thats by design.

The shortcomings I refer to are iOS. Networking is partially supported. Playback of video in hardware is generally limited to Apples few decreed supported formats. Keyboards are limited to Apple design. BT is limited to not include file transfer. And more.

 

[Liquorpuki]

Correct, they are primarily consumption devices. Thats not a shortcoming, thats by design.

I think the it was designed for consumption logic is just an excuse. Apple was selling keyboard docks at one point. People buy $100 iPad cases with built-in keyboards. Office is at the top of the app charts.

There was always a genuine need to use tablets for heavy lifting. Apple just couldn't nail it for any use case other than consumption.

 

[Hyper-X]

I agree with you all. iPads are behind the power curve when it comes to pointing and tracking devices, I personally feel that I'm much more precise using my rMBP with a mouse than using my iPads. I know I'm a minority when I say that I rely on using raster graphics and overlays for detailed map applications using 8-10 digit grid coordinates, but my SP2 with a stylus offers the same level of accuracy in some cases has proven faster than using my laptop with mouse.

Again I don't know if the issue is with iOS, the iPad itself, all of the styluses on the market or some combo of all of them. The key to using tablets for pointing isn't integrating a mouse, but with a stylus. There are many cases where you can free hand more accurately with a pen device than with a mouse.

I agree that Apple is short changing themselves by limiting their users this way. With so many apps out for iOS and I believe only about 1% are actually good. By comparison the SP has excellent tracking with MS's stylus, on apps that are native, no additional apps needed unless you need something outside of the MS environment (as in painting and custom graphics development).

It'd be nice if I can ditch using 3 tablets down to two. I really like the iPad for its simplicity and general all purpose use but I still take my rMBP with it on trips, but the SP is much more powerful to where I can leave my laptop home.

 

[Benzy]

we can all argue til the cows come home, but the truth is, if the surface pro had dual OS X, iOS on it, everyone will be buying it in a heart beat.

 

[Hyper-X]

Why should the SP have dual OS X and iOS on it? I've hated having and using Launchpad on OS X esp the change to the F4 hot key that I changed it back to Dashboard. Personally speaking I would hate having iOS features on OS X. I especially dislike natural scrolling.

 

[tdale]

I think the it was designed for consumption logic is just an excuse. Apple was selling keyboard docks at one point. People buy $100 iPad cases with built-in keyboards. Office is at the top of the app charts.

There was always a genuine need to use tablets for heavy lifting. Apple just couldn't nail it for any use case other than consumption.

And how does a keyboard turn iOS into a productivity machine?

You need a mouse, you need a stylus. You need the artificial restrictions removed. Then its worthwhile doing stuff instead of watching and reading and listening and playing. iOS can stay in its simple tablet form. You probably also need a decent size screen

 

[tdale]

I really like the iPad for its simplicity and general all purpose use but I still take my rMBP with it on trips, but the SP is much more powerful to where I can leave my laptop home.

I think this is a good summary for you, and others. The iPad is great, but its not an all purpose device. It does consumption very well. If you had a tablet, that had a full OS, that will do productivity, as your SP does. Would it be right that your functionality on the SP is pretty much the same as a PC or Mac? (Except perhaps not quite as convenient, but its all there?) Even if the iPad had a stylus and a mouse and a keyboard, and thats its no real issue not having access to a filing system, the iPad networking is not easy as a PC both ways, often you need to make it work. Bizarre. I expect a tablet to do everything a PC/Mac can do. Knowing that for some things it won't be as ideal, but the iPad isn't like that. Its in many ways a one way device. You can create, but you won't want to on an ongoing basis.

 

[subsonix]

I think this is a good summary for you, and others. The iPad is great, but its not an all purpose device.

What is? The current desktop and windows GUI was originally developed for children.

 

[tdale]

What is? The current desktop and windows GUI was originally developed for children.

Full OS allows you to be productive and consumptive. The children's OS as you term it can use many hardware accessories and you can install whatever you like. Same as OSX. The SP3, has the full Windows OS as well as the tablet OS, Metro, thats a full choice. Apple doesn't offer a tablet with a full OS, nor a tablet with a tablet OS that is well functioned. iOS is restrictive, but as a consumption device, the iPad is absolutely fine.

 

[subsonix]

Full OS allows you to be productive and consumptive. The children's OS as you term it can use many hardware accessories and you can install whatever you like. Same as OSX. The SP3, has the full Windows OS as well as the tablet OS, Metro, thats a full choice. Apple doesn't offer a tablet with a full OS, nor a tablet with a tablet OS that is well functioned. iOS is restrictive, but as a consumption device, the iPad is absolutely fine.

But what do you mean by "full OS" it's just a term you invented, iOS is a full OS, why don't you see the limitations of the desktop OS and demand a command line OS. The comment about a children's GUI goes back to Alan Kay and some of the original goals with the research at Xerox parc.

 

[maflynn]

[MOD NOTE]
Stop the bickering, if you cannot discuss the topic, then move on to another thread.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Why should the SP have dual OS X and iOS on it? I've hated having and using Launchpad on OS X esp the change to the F4 hot key that I changed it back to Dashboard. Personally speaking I would hate having iOS features on OS X. I especially dislike natural scrolling.

I don't get your response. WTF does your dislike of Launchpad have to do with anything? You don't have to use Launchpad in OSX and natural scrolling can be turned off as well. If you're implying it should only have OSX, that wouldn't exactly fit the tablet aspect of the device seeing OSX doesn't really support operation as a tablet plus it would be nice to be able to run some iOS software even on a normal Mac computer (e.g. games). I've never understood why they don't have an iOS emulation mode for the Mac other than for developers. I see nothing wrong with adding features of one OS to the other so long as they're just OPTIONAL.

Launchpad could be useful if they made it easier to organize. I had mine all set up under categories for Apps and then it suddenly unorganized itself and dumped everything out of the folders one day for no apparent reason (bug or something). They don't make it even slightly easy to move the things around from screen to screen, etc. It just comes across as half-arse implemented and Apple doesn't seem interested in fixing or enhancing it, much like everything else where they start something and then don't finish it.

I'd prefer an Apple tablet to have full OSX with an iOS "mode" on it. iOS is far too limiting and Apple trying to impose their wishes (i.e. greed) on you by not allowing file transfers, limiting your AV file format choices, etc. to their stuff so that you will BUY BUY BUY crap off the iTunes store is ultimately immoral, IMO. It's a small wonder so many people jailbreak their Apple devices. It's your computer. You should be able to run whatever software you want on it. Letting some company tell you what you can and cannot do is the first step to an Orwellian nightmare. In fact, Steve Jobs always struck me as the type to put such a system in place (despite their iconic ad implying the opposite; ironic eh?). It was always Steve's way or the highway. I was hoping things would change now that he's gone and we'd start getting some progress for better file format support in iTunes, etc. but OSX has even LESS support now that Quicktime X doesn't support plugins and Perian stopped updating at the worst possible time (e.g. space bar previews don't do jack anymore unless it's Apple's favorite formats).

But what do you mean by "full OS" it's just a term you invented, iOS is a full OS, why don't you see the limitations of the desktop OS and demand a command line OS. The comment about a children's GUI goes back to Alan Kay and some of the original goals with the research at Xerox parc.

In case you were unaware, OSX (being certified UNIX) *does* have a full command line OS in it. It's under Applications/Utilities/Terminal. I use it all the time. In fact, I had no interest in Macs until they switched to OSX. Now the Mac reminds me more of an Amiga (i.e. GUI and CLI available).

 

[subsonix]

In case you were unaware, OSX (being certified UNIX) *does* have a full command line OS in it. It's under Applications/Utilities/Terminal. I use it all the time. In fact, I had no interest in Macs until they switched to OSX. Now the Mac reminds me more of an Amiga (i.e. GUI and CLI available).

I'm not unaware of that, what gives you that impression? I also use it all the time, in fact I use it more than the GUI.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I'm not unaware of that, what gives you that impression? I also use it all the time, in fact I use it more than the GUI.

Oh I dunno. I guess I took the 'limitations of the desktop OS' bit with the 'Why don't [you] ... demand a command line OS' to mean you thought OSX didn't have one already.

 

[subsonix]

Oh I dunno. I guess I took the 'limitations of the desktop OS' bit with the 'Why don't [you] ... demand a command line OS' to mean you thought OSX didn't have one already.

No, it was a hint that in many ways a command line interface is more powerful, and the GUI is a convenience/power trade off. What would be defined as a "full OS" depends on what you load that term with.

 

[Menneisyys2]

Therte is no need for access to the file system.

Nevertheless, a much more capable inter-app file sharing capability would be more than welcome - for example, to share multi-Gigabyte video files between video players. (Currently, there's no "best" video player. To achieve everything you can do, you need to grant access to at least two different players to the same file, assuming it's, say, an MKV file. For more info: I've published tons of info on this HERE, in my symlink bible.)

----------

Why should the SP have dual OS X and iOS on it?

I'd LOVE such a thing - to be able to run all my apps, both iOS and OS X, in ONE device to take with me. Particularly if it supported Wacom / n-trig styli and if it had a powerful CPU and 8+ GB of RAM, so it could be even used for serious work.

 

[Dmunjal]

But what do you mean by "full OS" it's just a term you invented, iOS is a full OS, why don't you see the limitations of the desktop OS and demand a command line OS. The comment about a children's GUI goes back to Alan Kay and some of the original goals with the research at Xerox parc.

A GUI or a command line doesn't make an OS. How about these three? Multitasking, accessible file system, and IPC. Every modern OS has these today except iOS.

 

[subsonix]

A GUI or a command line doesn't make an OS. How about these three? Multitasking, accessible file system, and IPC. Every modern OS has these today except iOS.

Yeah, how about it. You just added three features that makes sense for you, someone else will add some others, and for what it's worth, iOS has multitasking and IPC.

 

[Dmunjal]

Yeah, how about it. You just added three features that makes sense for you, someone else will add some others, and for what it's worth, iOS has multitasking and IPC.

I didn't just make that up. These are real features of a modern OS. IOS doesn't have multitasking or IPC. It's implementation is very basic and limited. MacOS, Windows, Android, WP, and even WebOS had these.

 

[subsonix]

I didn't just make that up. These are real features of a modern OS.

I didn't imply that you made it up, but you picked features that you think are important for something to be a "full OS". The point is, it's not an established term, at all. Here, how about Zones, BSM, DTrace and ZFS. Now what?

IOS doesn't have multitasking or IPC. It's implementation is very basic. MacOS, Windows, Android, WP, and even WebOS had these.

Yes it does, even though it's not user exposed. It's not DOS, virtually all operating systems offer multitasking.