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I tried too. I'm convinced it's still doable. I don't think the limitation is hardware though. I think it's software. Problem is iOS + Android are budget software markets.

The most important thing MS did IMO was stick x86 on a tablet. Giving people access to the x86 ecosystem full of software that isn't a commoditized mess.

The iPad is not a 'one size fits all' device. For me, I have been able to travel now without a notebook, and just use the iPad and iPhone. The times I wish I had lugged my notebook around because I need to do 'X' are very infrequent. It got to the point where, when I did have a notebook, I was using it for a backup for the pictures on my camera, and with the Lightening SD card dongle and my iPad, that issue was solved.

However, not everyone will be as lucky as I am and will still need to lug a notebook, or something more notebookish around with them.
 
THANK YOU! I love REAL conversations and YES! MS did a good thing with that. Sadly it was done almost a decade ago but with the tech as it was then most folks didn't see the benefit and didn't like the total package.

The iPad is still IMHO the best overall package for a mobile device, but then . . . . . . then comes that moment when you need to open up ______________


Place the app of your choice there. For me it was always MS Office, or Photoshop or Avid or . . . . . . .

What the ipad did was advance the hardware enough where it was palatable to the average consumer. Thinness, battery life, weight, etc, things which MS were not able or not willing to do. Society will always be in debt to Apple for pushing these boundaries because without them we would still be in the era of 3lb. 2" thick tablets with 3 hours of battery life. The other side of the coin is that IMO Apple regressed us backwards in terms of iOS being too simple, we are still trying to climb out of that hole and thank god Microsoft understands we should never have fallen in that hole to begin with.
 
What the ipad did was advance the hardware enough where it was palatable to the average consumer. Thinness, battery life, weight, etc, things which MS were not able or not willing to do. Society will always be in debt to Apple for pushing these boundaries because without them we would still be in the era of 3lb. 2" thick tablets with 3 hours of battery life. The other side of the coin is that IMO Apple regressed us backwards in terms of iOS being too simple, we are still trying to climb out of that hole and thank god Microsoft understands we should never have fallen in that hole to begin with.
I disagree with the notion that Apple was only successful because their hardware was appealing to the masses. I'd suggest it was their software, too, even if you view iOS as a "regression." I think it was actually a great leap forward... for the masses.

It's anecdotal, but when my mother bought an iPad I expected to receive the usual flurry of phone calls about setting it up and explaining how to do certain things. It never happened. She used her iPad more often than her computer, not because it was more convenient (typing emails on the digital keyboard was never more convenient than a physical keyboard), but because she felt more comfortable with it. The computer - whether Windows or Mac - always had too much going on, too many options, and too many things she was afraid of touching lest she would screw up her computer (which had happened in the past). With the iPad she could open the app she needed, and just focus on getting the work done instead of screwing around with a dozen other things on the device.

Those of us who like to multitask and interact with the computer elements call that "dumbing down," but it requires a lot of work to accomplish an interface like that. Obviously it's not without compromises, but for people who were never 100% comfortable with computers, it's inviting and empowering.

The hardware is just one part of the equation. I suspect this is also partly why Microsoft's Surface isn't catching on so well. I don't own one, but I think it's a fantastic device... but I'm also a computer person. The Surface has a full version of Windows loaded, meaning that the interface is that of a full computer. It has hardware that is as nice as, if not nicer than, the iPad. If hardware were the only factor into the equation, the Surface should be doing much better than it currently is.
 
I disagree with the notion that Apple was only successful because their hardware was appealing to the masses. I'd suggest it was their software, too, even if you view iOS as a "regression." I think it was actually a great leap forward... for the masses.

It's anecdotal, but when my mother bought an iPad I expected to receive the usual flurry of phone calls about setting it up and explaining how to do certain things. It never happened. She used her iPad more often than her computer, not because it was more convenient (typing emails on the digital keyboard was never more convenient than a physical keyboard), but because she felt more comfortable with it. The computer - whether Windows or Mac - always had too much going on, too many options, and too many things she was afraid of touching lest she would screw up her computer (which had happened in the past). With the iPad she could open the app she needed, and just focus on getting the work done instead of screwing around with a dozen other things on the device.

Those of us who like to multitask and interact with the computer elements call that "dumbing down," but it requires a lot of work to accomplish an interface like that. Obviously it's not without compromises, but for people who were never 100% comfortable with computers, it's inviting and empowering.

The hardware is just one part of the equation. I suspect this is also partly why Microsoft's Surface isn't catching on so well. I don't own one, but I think it's a fantastic device... but I'm also a computer person. The Surface has a full version of Windows loaded, meaning that the interface is that of a full computer. It has hardware that is as nice as, if not nicer than, the iPad. If hardware were the only factor into the equation, the Surface should be doing much better than it currently is.

I don't see the iPad limitation as the interface is too simple. Simple on a small screen is a good thing. The issue for me is it's cutdown functionality. Can you access anything on your network that a PC or Mac can? No. Can you play any video and not be affected by lack of hardware acceleration so it stutters ? No. We don't need file system access, we need normal functionality and the simpler interface is not a cause if that
 
Brother (or sister) I was suckered into that stuff. I didn't try to use my iPad to replace my main PC, but i tried hard. Eventually I woke up and after $200+ in 3rd party apps and accessories i realized that the iPad just wasn't going to cut it in terms of being even a slightly effective PC replacement.

It's great at digesting content, and making quick alterations to things. Then it's great at doing one very specific thing that heavily involved a touch screen.

Sadly, I've learned this about most tablets. save for the ones running full desktop operating systems. . . . . . . ;)

I tried too. I'm convinced it's still doable. I don't think the limitation is hardware though. I think it's software. Problem is iOS + Android are budget software markets.

The most important thing MS did IMO was stick x86 on a tablet. Giving people access to the x86 ecosystem full of software that isn't a commoditized mess.

I disagree with the notion that Apple was only successful because their hardware was appealing to the masses. I'd suggest it was their software, too, even if you view iOS as a "regression." I think it was actually a great leap forward... for the masses.

It's anecdotal, but when my mother bought an iPad I expected to receive the usual flurry of phone calls about setting it up and explaining how to do certain things. It never happened. She used her iPad more often than her computer, not because it was more convenient (typing emails on the digital keyboard was never more convenient than a physical keyboard), but because she felt more comfortable with it. The computer - whether Windows or Mac - always had too much going on, too many options, and too many things she was afraid of touching lest she would screw up her computer (which had happened in the past). With the iPad she could open the app she needed, and just focus on getting the work done instead of screwing around with a dozen other things on the device.

Those of us who like to multitask and interact with the computer elements call that "dumbing down," but it requires a lot of work to accomplish an interface like that. Obviously it's not without compromises, but for people who were never 100% comfortable with computers, it's inviting and empowering.

The hardware is just one part of the equation. I suspect this is also partly why Microsoft's Surface isn't catching on so well. I don't own one, but I think it's a fantastic device... but I'm also a computer person. The Surface has a full version of Windows loaded, meaning that the interface is that of a full computer. It has hardware that is as nice as, if not nicer than, the iPad. If hardware were the only factor into the equation, the Surface should be doing much better than it currently is.

I don't fully disagree with you, if only for the fact that windows now has the "easy" mode called metro, or I guess they call it modern now. You could boot right into that and never even know the old desktop is there. Antivirus, updating, etc all are pretty transparent now in windows 8. Yet at the same time Metro/Modern isn't dumbed down like iOS, it's simply more touch aware, more scaling aware, more aware that you aren't sitting in front of a mouse/keyboard anymore.

There was a huge market for laptops and netbooks before the ipad. I would be curious what the number of ipads sold are versus the number of laptops/netbooks sold. Also consider the figure that gets thrown around that 96% of ipad owners own a laptop as well. 96% ! What does that tell you? It tells me that even owners who bought into the "I'm stupid" mantra of Apple still require a full OS for one reason or another.
 
I don't fully disagree with you, if only for the fact that windows now has the "easy" mode called metro, or I guess they call it modern now. You could boot right into that and never even know the old desktop is there. Antivirus, updating, etc all are pretty transparent now in windows 8. Yet at the same time Metro/Modern isn't dumbed down like iOS, it's simply more touch aware, more scaling aware, more aware that you aren't sitting in front of a mouse/keyboard anymore.

There was a huge market for laptops and netbooks before the ipad. I would be curious what the number of ipads sold are versus the number of laptops/netbooks sold. Also consider the figure that gets thrown around that 96% of ipad owners own a laptop as well. 96% ! What does that tell you? It tells me that even owners who bought into the "I'm stupid" mantra of Apple still require a full OS for one reason or another.

I am one of them. I would say was, but there is still that lure of going back to a one ecosystem world where everything just works nice together. Sadly, even my wife has started to abandon the iPad in favor of a more capable laptop, so the 2 years has it now, and he's mastered it. It is VERY easy to use, but only because it's the kindergarten version of a mobile computer.

Metro/Modern for me is works just like you described. I know that my options are hidden on the edges, that the bottom edge is preferences, the right are my other apps, the left is the "start" menu and the bottom closes the app. Once I got used to that, Windows 8 became a breeze.

And yes, Microsoft is the only company trying to save us money. Apple's only option for customers not served by a software feature of the iPad is to get another $1000 machine, or sink money into 3rd party apps that still don't do quite what you want.

At the very least on the Windows 8 side, if there isn't a Modern UI app available, I can always switch into the Desktop UI, sync a BT mouse and have at it.

I'd like to know how many users of iPad use it with a keyboard. The ones I see are so thick they negate the whole portability thing.
 
I am one of them. I would say was, but there is still that lure of going back to a one ecosystem world where everything just works nice together. Sadly, even my wife has started to abandon the iPad in favor of a more capable laptop, so the 2 years has it now, and he's mastered it. It is VERY easy to use, but only because it's the kindergarten version of a mobile computer.

Metro/Modern for me is works just like you described. I know that my options are hidden on the edges, that the bottom edge is preferences, the right are my other apps, the left is the "start" menu and the bottom closes the app. Once I got used to that, Windows 8 became a breeze.

And yes, Microsoft is the only company trying to save us money. Apple's only option for customers not served by a software feature of the iPad is to get another $1000 machine, or sink money into 3rd party apps that still don't do quite what you want.

At the very least on the Windows 8 side, if there isn't a Modern UI app available, I can always switch into the Desktop UI, sync a BT mouse and have at it.

I'd like to know how many users of iPad use it with a keyboard. The ones I see are so thick they negate the whole portability thing.

Lol, yeah my old ipad belongs to my 2 year old as well. I always thought it was funny when people extolled the virtues of a device a 2 year old could learn, as if that should have been a positive thing.
 
I have to admit that this line cracked me up. After decades of blatantly ripping people off, Microsoft is now trying to save us money? ROFLMAO.

You may be laughing, but I haven't had to carry around a rMBP, iPad, iPhone, iPod, and a host of adaptors since i went with a Note 2 and Dell Venue Pro.

Apple making iWork free was nice though.

Do you have proof to the contrary?

Lol, yeah my old ipad belongs to my 2 year old as well. I always thought it was funny when people extolled the virtues of a device a 2 year old could learn, as if that should have been a positive thing.

More importantly, the ability/performance never increased from that level. My 2 year old can use my Note 2 with surprising accuracy, but doesn't understand multi-screen, floating window, and a host of other features. He can launch Netflix and kids games, and pull out the stylus to draw in S Note.

Everything he's learned about the iPad is as far as anyone will ever go. Push the home button, endlessly swipe and peck.
 
When I saw the guy shilling this thing HUG IT on stage because its "personal" i could hear SJ laughing his ass off from beyond the grave.

Microsoft, BLESS THEIR HEARTS. They try so hard over there.

#iPadAirforthewin

I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Microsoft has certainly did their homework and learned from the past Surface Pros. SP3 uses laptop components, and is a full PC in tablet form. Comparing this to an iPad is an extreme disservice to this great product.

iPads are great, but you can't compare this to an iPad.
 
I don't fully disagree with you, if only for the fact that windows now has the "easy" mode called metro, or I guess they call it modern now.
I haven't used Windows 8, so I can't offer too much on the discussion. I don't really view Metro as "easy mode," though. It is an interface that is more optimal for touch, and I'd imagine that Microsoft designed it with that in mind. Their blunder was in making it the default even for desktop computers. There was an awful lot of complaints about people having trouble figuring out how to do things when Windows 8 was first released, and these complaints came from grandmothers to techies. Did people complain that iOS was unintuitive when it was first released? I'm sure that some did, but I didn't hear a large outcry over it. iOS hasn't changed dramatically since it was first released and the devices still sell like crazy, so I doubt there's a usability issue.

Granted, the comparison that I just made is a bit unfair. Most people didn't go into iOS expecting it to behave exactly as their desktop computer did, whereas most complaints about Windows 8 were derived from people who expected it to behave exactly as their desktop computer had prior to the upgrade. Regardless, the point about ease of use still stands, and it could explain part of the marketing appeal of the iPad compared with the Surface.
 
>Real multitasking
>Mouse support
>Thousands of programs, not restricted by andboxing
>A real file system
>Intel i3-i7 with more powerful graphics
>More RAM

I could keep going as to what makes a Surface Pro with Windows more powerful than an iPad. It isn't an opinion, the iPad isn't in the same field really.

True and with must you said, but there are still two things missed, a good gpu chip and a bigger screen minimaly 14'!
 
Lol, yeah my old ipad belongs to my 2 year old as well. I always thought it was funny when people extolled the virtues of a device a 2 year old could learn, as if that should have been a positive thing.

It is FAR harder to make the complex simple and accessible than it is to keep the complex confusing. This is why most technology has historically had laughably bad UI's. Remember the days when everyone's VCR clock flashed 12:00 because setting it was too much of a pain. Ever tried to set the clock or make simple changes on any number of car stereos or set a programmable thermostat? The way Microsoft was going for years was fine for people who had the same mindset as the engineers who designed it, but it was absolutely awful for everyone else. I've spent so much time of my life supporting incredibly intelligent people through the basic minutiae of Microsoft software. The vast majority of them are far happier with Apple because Apple understands how to build software that gets out of the way and lets people use the devices for the actual tasks they want to do. That is the key element to their success.

What iOS did that no other company was willing to do was to simplify to excess. It was genius because it quickly became apparent how overly complex every other system out there was. When 3rd part apps became possible suddenly many companies released apps on the Apple formula that allowed you to do the things you actually wanted to do (check balances, change plans, etc) FAR easier through the apps than their own massively more powerful websites. It's no surprise how many websites of 2014 look an awful lot like the first apps of 2010. There is plenty that Microsoft does well. As of now, making a computing appliance I want to read and relax on is definitely not one of them.
 
It is FAR harder to make the complex simple and accessible than it is to keep the complex confusing. This is why most technology has historically had laughably bad UI's. Remember the days when everyone's VCR clock flashed 12:00 because setting it was too much of a pain. Ever tried to set the clock or make simple changes on any number of car stereos or set a programmable thermostat? The way Microsoft was going for years was fine for people who had the same mindset as the engineers who designed it, but it was absolutely awful for everyone else. I've spent so much time of my life supporting incredibly intelligent people through the basic minutiae of Microsoft software. The vast majority of them are far happier with Apple because Apple understands how to build software that gets out of the way and lets people use the devices for the actual tasks they want to do. That is the key element to their success.

What iOS did that no other company was willing to do was to simplify to excess. It was genius because it quickly became apparent how overly complex every other system out there was. When 3rd part apps became possible suddenly many companies released apps on the Apple formula that allowed you to do the things you actually wanted to do (check balances, change plans, etc) FAR easier through the apps than their own massively more powerful websites. It's no surprise how many websites of 2014 look an awful lot like the first apps of 2010. There is plenty that Microsoft does well. As of now, making a computing appliance I want to read and relax on is definitely not one of them.
There is a lot of truth there. The 2nd greatest deficiency of the Surface line of tablets is the necessity for all of the systems maintenance that full-on notebooks and desktops require. That is not an enjoyable part of ownership of the Surface.
 
I haven't used Windows 8, so I can't offer too much on the discussion. I don't really view Metro as "easy mode," though. It is an interface that is more optimal for touch, and I'd imagine that Microsoft designed it with that in mind. Their blunder was in making it the default even for desktop computers. There was an awful lot of complaints about people having trouble figuring out how to do things when Windows 8 was first released, and these complaints came from grandmothers to techies. Did people complain that iOS was unintuitive when it was first released? I'm sure that some did, but I didn't hear a large outcry over it. iOS hasn't changed dramatically since it was first released and the devices still sell like crazy, so I doubt there's a usability issue.

Granted, the comparison that I just made is a bit unfair. Most people didn't go into iOS expecting it to behave exactly as their desktop computer did, whereas most complaints about Windows 8 were derived from people who expected it to behave exactly as their desktop computer had prior to the upgrade. Regardless, the point about ease of use still stands, and it could explain part of the marketing appeal of the iPad compared with the Surface.

The issues with Windows 8 are a three your old problem that was addressed two years ago.

The main issue with Windows 8's Metro was the learning curve. I agree that people were expecting a desktop OS, but once they got around Metro they were fine. On touch screens however, there were very few complaints. The biggest complaint now (which has already been addressed with 8.1) was the jarring UX that stemmed from jumping out of Metro and into Desktop mode.

Although, it's been addressed in Windows 8.1

Having used Windows 8 and 8.1 almost daily, I'd say that even the most casual users find it more intuitive than iOS, which has users clicking all over the place to do simple tasks, on a device that is simple by nature and can't break away from the click, swipe, home button UI.

Windows 8 is in fact a desktop OS that optimized to run on various tablets and laptops and desktops for touch and keyboard/mouse input, so at it's root its far more robust.

Both have their benefits, but one serves a much broader need.

p.s. just in case someone misconstrues, I am talking about how Windows 8 serves a lot of devices while iOS only serves a handful, not sales numbers or anything.
 
I haven't used Windows 8, so I can't offer too much on the discussion. I don't really view Metro as "easy mode," though. It is an interface that is more optimal for touch, and I'd imagine that Microsoft designed it with that in mind. Their blunder was in making it the default even for desktop computers. There was an awful lot of complaints about people having trouble figuring out how to do things when Windows 8 was first released, and these complaints came from grandmothers to techies. Did people complain that iOS was unintuitive when it was first released? I'm sure that some did, but I didn't hear a large outcry over it. iOS hasn't changed dramatically since it was first released and the devices still sell like crazy, so I doubt there's a usability issue.

Granted, the comparison that I just made is a bit unfair. Most people didn't go into iOS expecting it to behave exactly as their desktop computer did, whereas most complaints about Windows 8 were derived from people who expected it to behave exactly as their desktop computer had prior to the upgrade. Regardless, the point about ease of use still stands, and it could explain part of the marketing appeal of the iPad compared with the Surface.

Definitely windows 8 was a bit of a mess when it was released. The dual nature of metro/modern and the desktop is a necessary evil unfortunately. The desktop is not going to die, we still need the ability as a working society to sit down at a large screen and drive it with a keyboard and a mouse. At the same time the mobile world needed a different paradigm, one simpler to touch and slide when you are on the go. Microsoft was attempting something that Apple did not, to allow the user to take both worlds with him. IMO Microsofts big mistake was simply not allowing folders in the start screen, changing the way the start button works was very jarring and confusing (and still is).

At the same time I don't feel it's as big of a deal as it's made out to be, in particular the desktop/metro dual nature of windows 8. The vast majority of these consumers already understand the nature of a destkop like OS, whether it's Windows 7, OSx, Linux, etc it's not a foreign thing to them. A big chunk of them also understand what a mobile OS is, iOS and android comes to mind. For a consumer to make the leap to understanding a kind of a dual OS is not anywhere near as difficult as many make it out to be.

----------

It is FAR harder to make the complex simple and accessible than it is to keep the complex confusing. This is why most technology has historically had laughably bad UI's. Remember the days when everyone's VCR clock flashed 12:00 because setting it was too much of a pain. Ever tried to set the clock or make simple changes on any number of car stereos or set a programmable thermostat? The way Microsoft was going for years was fine for people who had the same mindset as the engineers who designed it, but it was absolutely awful for everyone else. I've spent so much time of my life supporting incredibly intelligent people through the basic minutiae of Microsoft software. The vast majority of them are far happier with Apple because Apple understands how to build software that gets out of the way and lets people use the devices for the actual tasks they want to do. That is the key element to their success.

What iOS did that no other company was willing to do was to simplify to excess. It was genius because it quickly became apparent how overly complex every other system out there was. When 3rd part apps became possible suddenly many companies released apps on the Apple formula that allowed you to do the things you actually wanted to do (check balances, change plans, etc) FAR easier through the apps than their own massively more powerful websites. It's no surprise how many websites of 2014 look an awful lot like the first apps of 2010. There is plenty that Microsoft does well. As of now, making a computing appliance I want to read and relax on is definitely not one of them.

I completely agree, but I think the regression was too much. It was good that it pushed and forced Microsoft to rethink what they were doing and create Metro/Modern. But at the same time so much functionality was lost that could have been there on tablets. I'm not sure which would have caused more damage, iOS regressing OS' backwards so badly or Microsoft never learning their lesson regarding what a mobile OS should have been.

As for a "computing appliance I want to read and relax on" I definitely differ in opinion in that Microsoft has made a SUPERIOR device to consume content and do non-work activities. Certainly this is in the eye of the beholder and your needs and wants may not be the same as mine. But I've been patiently and agonizingly "tolerating" iOS for these past years while I waited for windows (or I would have been happy with OSx) to come out on a tablet. There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that I have greatly compromised in having to use iOS and I would never in my wildest dreams ever regress myself to it.
 
At the same time I don't feel it's as big of a deal as it's made out to be, in particular the desktop/metro dual nature of windows 8.

Its not.

I am willing to put a bet, that, especially here on MR, that the vast majority of people who constantly attack windows 8(.1) as "the worst ever" and the other extremely biased statements have never, even used the operating system. Nevermind the occasional few who probably touched in while visiting Best Buy for 2 minutes and have no real idea of Operating Systems outside OSx.

Many people have formed negative opinions of Windows 8 based solely on what they read online. Many haven't bothered to read anything past the first launch of windows 8, Which I will admit was Jarring. Change scares a lot of people (especially techies), and many on Launch of 8 were shocked and scared and wrote that they didnt like the changes, therefore windows 8 was a bad OS.

This is untrue and has changed dramatically over the time that 8 has been out.

Don't get me wrong, Win8 does some things ... wrong. But it isn't this mess of a disaster that many people would like to believe.

We have hit a point in Computers, where desktop operating systems have reached significant parity with eachother. There is no such thing as "the most advanced operating system". They all pose are extremely competent platforms that act as a platform to accomplish tasks. Apple and OSx do some things better than Windows, and Windows, believe it or not Does some things better than OSx (Shocking, I know!).
 
There is a lot of truth there. The 2nd greatest deficiency of the Surface line of tablets is the necessity for all of the systems maintenance that full-on notebooks and desktops require. That is not an enjoyable part of ownership of the Surface.

Although a valid point, I think this is overstated a lot these days. Windows 8 is quite a transparent OS. Malware/anti virus is automated, updated etc all invisibly without any user input required. In the years since microsoft introduced it's own malware/AV software I think I've had to interact with it maybe a couple of times, and that was primarily because I set it to manual updates. Updating the OS is quite invisible as well, and I'd say quite equal to iOS. If you want to update in iOS you hit settings then update your software. Metro/modern has the same thing, you can right swipe, hit settings, get a nice large scaled settings page and you can go to updates and update manually, or just set it to automatic and never worry about it again.

Out of half a dozen PCs I run at home, work, and multiple laptops and tablets I rarely if ever have any issues where I have to dig into the OS, and virtually all of those are due to my own tinkering which messed something up.

I hear some saying "simplicity" equates to things like users not wanting to set their clocks on their VCR, programming a thermostat or adjusting their car stereo. I would beg to differ and not say this is complexity but pure and utter laziness. The day a human being is truly stupid enough to not be able to program a VCR clock is the day that the human race has lost and might as well all give up and die. I understand that consumers are lazy and if Apple caters to that and it makes them money then more power to them, I just get annoyed at the "simplicity" mantra that everyone chants. Yeah my 90 year old grandmother or my 2 year old can use an ipad, that doesn't make it a positive for the vast majority of consumers IMO.
 
I would beg to differ and not say this is complexity but pure and utter laziness. The day a human being is truly stupid enough to not be able to program a VCR clock is the day that the human race has lost and might as well all give up and die.

Why would you want to spend your days on this earth reading manuals for stupid technology. It's not the user that is stupid.
 
Why would you want to spend your days on this earth reading manuals for stupid technology. It's not the user that is stupid.

I didn't say stupid, I said lazy. Why would you want to learn how to drive a car? Why would you want to learn how to operate your stove or microwave? Why would you want to learn how to program your alarm clock. Why would you want to learn how to use your ipad?

If it takes you days reading a manual to run a windows tablet then you may consider something a bit simpler like rocks and a chisel.
 
I didn't say stupid, I said lazy.

"The day a human being is truly stupid enough to not be able to program a VCR clock.."

Why would you want to learn how to drive a car? Why would you want to learn how to operate your stove or microwave? Why would you want to learn how to program your alarm clock. Why would you want to learn how to use your ipad?

If it takes you days reading a manual to run a windows tablet then you may consider something a bit simpler like rocks and a chisel.

The point is since we are discussing user interfaces, given the choice, would you prefer a VCR clock that is easy to program, or one that you have to learn how to program. Technology should be an amplifier to our human abilities, interfaces should be as transparent as possible, allowing you to focus fully on what you are actually attempting to do with the technology.
 
I completely agree, but I think the regression was too much. It was good that it pushed and forced Microsoft to rethink what they were doing and create Metro/Modern. But at the same time so much functionality was lost that could have been there on tablets. I'm not sure which would have caused more damage, iOS regressing OS' backwards so badly or Microsoft never learning their lesson regarding what a mobile OS should have been.

As for a "computing appliance I want to read and relax on" I definitely differ in opinion in that Microsoft has made a SUPERIOR device to consume content and do non-work activities. Certainly this is in the eye of the beholder and your needs and wants may not be the same as mine. But I've been patiently and agonizingly "tolerating" iOS for these past years while I waited for windows (or I would have been happy with OSx) to come out on a tablet. There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that I have greatly compromised in having to use iOS and I would never in my wildest dreams ever regress myself to it.

In order to recreate something, it is often necessary to discard the old way entirely and build it entirely anew. Apple was willing to do this, Microsoft was not. If not for Apple, we would have gone down the road of Windows Mobile which was again, great for tech geeks and awful for everyone else.

I understand that different people want different things, but it has become quite clear over the years here that what you want from a tablet is way outside the norms of what most people want. Microsoft had tablets that did effectively what you wanted for years, and they sold effectively none of them. I don't want my tablet to be a laptop replacement, it's an appliance that does things differently and yes, often better, than a regular computer does. Windows 8 is in no way ready to replace the iPad for any volume of users. Of perhaps the top 25-30 most used iPad apps of mine, perhaps 5 of them are available on Windows. Of the half-dozen or so magazines I subscribe to, one is available in the Windows store. I'm sure you'll say I have access to everything in desktop which is a) not always true as in the case of magazines, and b) fundamentally changes the use of the device as I go from a dead simple (read appliance-like) experience to struggling with Touch on the desktop or having to get out the keyboard which completely defeats the point of a tablet.

I hear some saying "simplicity" equates to things like users not wanting to set their clocks on their VCR, programming a thermostat or adjusting their car stereo. I would beg to differ and not say this is complexity but pure and utter laziness. The day a human being is truly stupid enough to not be able to program a VCR clock is the day that the human race has lost and might as well all give up and die. I understand that consumers are lazy and if Apple caters to that and it makes them money then more power to them, I just get annoyed at the "simplicity" mantra that everyone chants. Yeah my 90 year old grandmother or my 2 year old can use an ipad, that doesn't make it a positive for the vast majority of consumers IMO.

Why should people need to read manuals for things that with a bit more care on the development and design side could be done completely without one? Because it's cheaper to make whatever interface you come up with and offload the work of designing a great interface from your company (which costs you money) to your customers who then must each spend a small amount of time figuring out your convoluted interface. Make no mistake. Simple interfaces aren't common because they cost more money than complex ones.

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The point is since we are discussing user interfaces, given the choice, would you prefer a VCR clock that is easy to program, or one that you have to learn how to program. Technology should be an amplifier to our human abilities, interfaces should be as transparent as possible, allowing you to focus fully on what you are actually attempting to do with the technology.

Exactly. Tech geeks tend to forget this as for them, the tech is the end itself. Yet the vast majority of users just need a tool to let them do the work for which the tech is the means.

We also tend to forget that the logical thinking that goes into the creation of much software and technology applies best to the people who think like those who create it, yet in reality, that mode of thinking only applies to a small portion of the population. Yes, once I read the manual, 'I get it,' yet I can step outside of myself enough to see that just as I will never be capable of composing a great musical work or painting a masterpiece, other people of value have great difficulty understanding the logical method that comes so naturally to me and most of us who choose to spend time in places like this.
 
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