Microsoft Launches Zune HD

[CylonGlitch]

BTW someone asked for a side by side shot of the ZuneHD and iPodTouch in the sun :

(stolen from a review)

But when using the Zune indoors, the quality of the display more than makes up for the slightly smaller acreage. The Zune’s screen is OLED. Blacks are utterly black and when the colors of a piece of album art are meant to pop, they damned-near poke your eye out.

...

The photo is intentionally overexposed; otherwise, it’d be difficult to make out the Zune HD display at all.

Looks like the ZuneHD is a decent PMP, sounds good. The problem with comparing it to an iPod Touch is that the iPT is not just a PMP, sure that is one of it's features but it does so much more too. If you're looking for a PMP, then the ZuneHD seems to be the way to go. If you're looking for a PDA/PMP/Casual Game rig; then the iPT seems to be the way to go.

Whatever fits your needs.

 

[MacMan86]

Yeah right. And you are saying that because Zune HD with mobile IE6 which dates from 2001 is a better choice than something that something with HTML 5, Acid 3 Compliance?

This post made me wonder what the Zune HD gets in an Acid3 test. http://discuss.gdgt.com/microsoft/zune/hd/general/A-Bit-of-curiosity/

People saying 5/100 or 14/100 at best. Wow

 

[kdarling]

And you are saying that because Zune HD with mobile IE6 which dates from 2001 is a better choice than something that something with HTML 5, Acid 3 Compliance?

Again, mobile IE6 doesn't date from 2001. Just the name does.

There was a WinCE IE6 dating from 2006 that we used in industrial devices that was pretty much IE6.

But the Zune version of "IE6" uses IE8's Javascript engine, IE7's css engine, and the rest is only nominally based on IE6 code.

They should've called it "Zune Mobile" or something, to avoid people trying to directly compare it to desktop IE6.

 

[celtikmind]

This post made me wonder what the Zune HD gets in an Acid3 test. http://discuss.gdgt.com/microsoft/zune/hd/general/A-Bit-of-curiosity/

People saying 5/100 or 14/100 at best. Wow

What the heck is Acid3? And what usefulness does it have to a PMP?

Never heard of it before now.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

This post made me wonder what the Zune HD gets in an Acid3 test. http://discuss.gdgt.com/microsoft/zune/hd/general/A-Bit-of-curiosity/

People saying 5/100 or 14/100 at best. Wow

yeah but run the other mobile browser and there and you would get the save very piss poor results

 

[KnightWRX]

yeah but run the other mobile browser and there and you would get the save very piss poor results

Don't you hate being wrong all the time ?

What the heck is Acid3? And what usefulness does it have to a PMP?

Never heard of it before now.

Acid3, Acid2 and Acid are test suites for Browser w3c standard conformance. They basically test how standards compliant (for the various parts of the standard they test) your browser is. As you can guess, IE lags behind, even in version 8 in these tests. Webkit, Gecko and Opera are all very standards compliant and as such, when you write a page to the standard, it usually displays the same in all 3 engines.

That is why people whine about IE, because you constantly have to remove functionality or do convulted tricks to get your web pages up and displaying properly in IE. Microsoft just doesn't like standard compliance, it goes against their "Vendor lock-in" goal.

(stolen from a review)

Wow, I guess the MS-fanboys are going to have to find that review and then actively dismiss it as "Apple-biased, fanboy spouted crap", and then nitpick at every possibility that could undermine the credibility of the author while inventing hundreds of reason why this picture is fake.

Because you know, Appleinsider can't be objective when they report something.

 

[LagunaSol]

I believe it is hilarious how guys think it is impossible for MS to do anything nice.

I don't think that exclusively - I just think it's impossible for MS to do anything nice before someone else does something nice before them and gives them something to emulate. It's just their corporate DNA. I would love to hear examples that counter this notion.

It think it's hilarious how you think blogs were bought because they give good reviews.

Hmm, did I say that? No, I didn't.

And it is also the way Apple marketing team works. (e.g every single "I'm a Mac" ad.)

The MicroFanboys are always complaining about how dishonest the I'm A Mac ads are, yet they never provide specifics. Are they embellished? Of course - all ads are. Are they lies? Absolutely not. PCs have more virus problems, generally come loaded with crapware, don't have the great iLife apps, Vista was a flop, customer service for PCs is a nightmare ("Go to the hardware folks." "No, go to the software folks."). These are universal facts.

If anything, these ads annoy the Windows faithful because they're painfully true. And they know it.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Don't you hate being wrong all the time ?

Odd there considering Safari on my PC pulls pulled a 75/100. Firefox pulls a 93/100 and IE 7 pulled a entire 14/100.

I just question the results not lining up with the windows verson of safira.

 

[KnightWRX]

Odd there considering Safari on my PC pulls pulled a 75/100. Firefox pulls a 93/100 and IE 7 pulled a entire 14/100.

I just question the results not lining up with the windows verson of safira.

Safari scores 100/100 since Safari 4. Mobile Safari in iPhone OS 3.1 and 3.0 before it was pretty up-to-date vs the desktop version. Don't forget Webkit is a seperate component and is very adaptable.

 

[CQd44]

I'm not sure why the Acid3 test is so important to some people. It tests a browser's ability to handle badly coded java, doesn't it?

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Safari scores 100/100 since Safari 4. Mobile Safari in iPhone OS 3.1 and 3.0 before it was pretty up-to-date vs the desktop version. Don't forget Webkit is a seperate component and is very adaptable.

Mobile Safari still doesn't pass the Acid3 test. The image is supposed to look EXACTLY like the reference image, and there are definite artifacts (even in your screenshot) that don't match the reference image. Just because it says 100/100 does not mean it passed. Also, it wasn't a smooth animation, which is another requirement of Acid3.

 

[cumanzor]

So you are not even an Apple fanboy, you are just anti microsoft, for whatever reason. You are calling me a MS fanboy for defending them, guess what: I'm not. As I said and I've been saying, I use linux almost 24/7 (I do manage a few Server 2003 boxes though).

I just think it's impossible for MS to do anything nice before someone else does something nice before them and gives them something to emulate. It's just their corporate DNA. I would love to hear examples that counter this notion

This is completely biased opinion. They sure do "implement"some features seen elsewhere, but so does most companies, including Apple. Look around, browser wars, OS wars, etc, they all just use stuff from their competitors and implement them in different ways.

Having said that, it goes both ways. Obviously both companies innovate every once in a while, but only a true fanboy believes either company is perfect in this sense.

The MicroFanboys are always complaining about how dishonest the I'm A Mac ads are, yet they never provide specifics. Are they embellished? Of course - all ads are. Are they lies? Absolutely not.

No, people complain because most of those "facts" are either half-truths or just ********.

PCs have more virus problems, generally come loaded with crapware,

********, Windows does have more malware issues, PCs in general? No, a virus can infect your Windows boot camp install as well. Get off your high horse, your Apple computer is just a regular PC with proprietary ******** on it. About the crapware, guess what, this is not MS's fault either. Blame the manufacturers.

don't have the great iLife apps,

While there are no bundled apps in Windows of this sort, there a gazillion free and commercial alternatives, literally. Some of them even better than can iPhoto, iDVD or iMove. GarageBand on the other hand is amazing, I give that to you.

Vista was a flop

True, but have you tried Vista after SP1. Probably not. Have you tried Windows 7? Probably not. Almost every user out there agrees that Windows 7 is the best OS yet. Even OS X users agree. Of course those who are blind fanboys will use whatever excuse they can to trash the OS, just like they are doing with the Zune.

If anything, these ads annoy the Windows faithful because they're painfully true. And they know it.

True? You think those ads are truthful? Oh well, way to lose all credibility there pal.

I'm not sure why the Acid3 test is so important to some people. It tests a browser's ability to handle badly coded java, doesn't it?

Javascript (not Java), and it also measures the level of compliance against web standards. It is ridiculous to use it as a benchmark tool.

 

[inkswamp]

i can understand that, however most folks on this forum only believe that innovation comes from the folks at mapple They should change their slogan to Apple, an Iphone company

I know what you're saying and that can be annoying but, to be fair, this is a site intended for Apple users. It's a self-selecting bunch and criticizing that is sort of pointless.

Members here blindly praise MS products without even having used them, pick and choose excerpts from biased articles while ignoring others, state subjective points as fact and contrive spurious statistics,e tc. You would swear BG has some of you on the payroll. Different strokes for different folks.

Works both ways buddy.

Happens on both sides. People look for bias and accuse people of being "fanboys" or whatever but the thing is, I've used lots of MS products and I find that they generally under-deliver and are badly designed, so my tendency is to assume the worst with new MS products. It's not blind hatred for MS. It's a bias, I admit, but a bias with some rationale behind it. It doesn't make someone a fanboy because they assume they will see the same sketchy quality in a new MS product that they've experienced in the past.

BTW someone asked for a side by side shot of the ZuneHD and iPodTouch in the sun :

(stolen from a review)

Thanks. That was my request. Any idea where that review is? Looks like whoever did that knew what they were reviewing.

EDIT: Ah, I found it. It's Andy Ihnatko's review (should have known.)

http://www.suntimes.com/technology/ihnatko/1775373,ihnatko-zune-hd-microsoft-091609.article

 

[LagunaSol]

This is completely biased opinion.

Examples of great original Microsoft innovations please?

And the classic "sure Microsoft copies, but Apple does too" response is not what I'm looking for (the classic easy way out).

Having said that, it goes both ways. Obviously both companies innovate every once in a while, but only a true fanboy believes either company is perfect in this sense.

That's a strawman. Who said Apple is perfect? I didn't. I'm saying that Microsoft can't do anything original.

iPod -> Zune
Wii -> Natal
Mii -> 360 avatars
Coverflow -> Xbox Live
YouTube -> Soapbox (RIP)
Mac -> Windows
MobileMe -> My Phone
iTunes App Store -> Windows Mobile Store
Google -> Windows Live Search/Bing

The list goes on and on and on, but I don't care to spend more of my time proving the obvious.

No, people complain because most of those "facts" are either half-truths or just ********.

I'd love to see you back up this claim.

a virus can infect your Windows boot camp install as well. Get off your high horse, your Apple computer is just a regular PC with proprietary ******** on it..

You're seriously arguing that Apple is dishonest about viruses because Windows on a Mac gets viruses too? Seriously??? Wow.

And I see you're playing the "you're arrogant because you disagree with me" card. A classic arrow from the Apple-haters quiver, but ultimately pointless.

While there are no bundled apps in Windows of this sort,

So the point made in that commercial is true. Moving on.

True, but have you tried Vista after SP1. Probably not. Have you tried Windows 7? Probably not.

Actually, I have Windows 7 RC on my Mac as a virtual machine right now.

And as you mention, the point made in that particular commercial is also true. Moving on.

Almost every user out there agrees that Windows 7 is the best OS yet. Even OS X users agree.

Bzzt, wrong. Best Windows version yet. Sure. Best OS? No way. OS X still beats it. I use both. I think you'll find relatively few OS X users that agree with you, contrary to what you are claiming. And who are these "almost every user out there" you are referring to? I imagine their identity will remain a mystery.

Of course those who are blind fanboys will use whatever excuse they can to trash the OS, just like they are doing with the Zune.

And using the "blind fanboy" line as a line of defense proves that you have nothing to add to the debate.

And I'm hardly "trashing" the Zune - I'm just saying that it's not a compelling product in today's market.

True? You think those ads are truthful? Oh well, way to lose all credibility there pal.

Still waiting for you to lay out all the blatant lies of these ads. *crickets*

 

[KnightWRX]

Mobile Safari still doesn't pass the Acid3 test. The image is supposed to look EXACTLY like the reference image, and there are definite artifacts (even in your screenshot) that don't match the reference image. Just because it says 100/100 does not mean it passed. Also, it wasn't a smooth animation, which is another requirement of Acid3.

Exactly. But it's not doing so bad either, like Rodimus was claiming. It's doing much better than many other desktop browsers were just back in january.

And the animation requirements are lifted when using a mobile browser, so the only things left are the artifacts.

 

[polaris20]

True, but have you tried Vista after SP1. Probably not. Have you tried Windows 7? Probably not. Almost every user out there agrees that Windows 7 is the best OS yet. Even OS X users agree. Of course those who are blind fanboys will use whatever excuse they can to trash the OS, just like they are doing with the Zune.

I've used Windows 7 daily since the beta came out. It is indeed the best Windows OS ever released. I didn't think it's the best OS ever, and I doubt you'll find Linux users like myself agreeing it's the best OS ever either, much less OS X fans. An OS is a personal thing, and there is no "best OS ever".

And Vista SP2 is still sluggish compared to XP, 7, and OS X. Which is fine, since 7 is officially out next month anyway.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

And the animation requirements are lifted when using a mobile browser

Who says?

As for the test itself:
Considering that Safari doesn't actually hold up the standards of the Acid3 test, it's just optimized to pass it, I doubt that Mobile Safari would actually score 100/100 had it not been optimized for the test. That's why the real test will be Acid4 since the requirements for that won't be published and therefore actual standards will need to be implemented in order to pass.

 

[KnightWRX]

Who says?

As for the test itself:
Considering that Safari doesn't actually hold up the standards of the Acid3 test, it's just optimized to pass it, I doubt that Mobile Safari would actually score 100/100 had it not been optimized for the test. That's why the real test will be Acid4 since the requirements for that won't be published and therefore actual standards will need to be implemented in order to pass.

http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1207096078&count=1

As for WebKit's standard compliance, I've found that it pretty much adheres to what the w3 puts forth. It still might not implement all standards and all revisions, but it's pretty advance. So is Gecko. So is Opera's engine.

IE... not so much.

 

[kdarling]

Examples of great original Microsoft innovations please?

The Surface is pretty cool. And Natal is not the same as Wii.

I'm saying that Microsoft can't do anything original.

Some of your histories seem to start with Apple, for some odd reason.

MP3 players -> iPod -> Zune
Enright -> Apple buys Coverflow -> Xbox Live
PARC -> Mac -> Windows
Any app store -> iTunes App Store -> Windows Mobile Store

Hey, I spend YEARS trashing Microsoft. I refused to use their stuff for a long, long time. I even helped start a computer company back in the 80's to compete with them (and Atari and Amiga). That's more than most MS haters have done.

But I'm impressed these days with MS's openness. MS is slowly becoming younger. Most teams have blogs, and they will answer questions. So unlike Apple and their secretiveness.

 

[LagunaSol]

The Surface is pretty cool. And Natal is not the same as Wii.

Surface? Really? The Big Ass Table?

Natal is not the same as the Wii, but it is going after what made the Wii such a hit - motion control (which most Xbox gamers derided as silly and pointless but now seem to like the idea now that Microsoft has jumped on board).

And the guy primarily responsible for Natal concocted the concept using Wii controllers (it didn't originate in-house) - after his demo he was quickly made a Microsoft employee.

Some of your histories seem to start with Apple, for some odd reason.

Talk to Microsoft about that, not me.

MP3 players -> iPod -> Zune

Yes, the old "Microsoft only copies Apple after Apple copies someone else" routine.

Enright -> Apple buys Coverflow -> Xbox Live

The difference being Apple purchased this technology, only to have it ripped off (for free) by Microsoft. This was not a good example of Apple innovation, obviously, but it is a good example of Microsoft's "Me Too" approach to business and design.

Any app store -> iTunes App Store -> Windows Mobile Store

Yes, of course, and before the iMac there was colored plastic, thus the iMac was not really innovative either.

But I'm impressed these days with MS's openness. MS is slowly becoming younger. Most teams have blogs, and they will answer questions. So unlike Apple and their secretiveness.

A tiger doesn't change his stripes. Only a fool would believe in a new kinder, gentler Microsoft.

And Microsoft's "openness" is more about sewing FUD than anything else. "Check out our new Zune which we'll be shipping in 18 months! Surely you don't want an iPod now!"

I'll be impressed if/when they actually come out with a product that doesn't already have someone else's fingerprints all over it.

 

[CylonGlitch]

Who says?

As for the test itself:
Considering that Safari doesn't actually hold up the standards of the Acid3 test, it's just optimized to pass it, I doubt that Mobile Safari would actually score 100/100 had it not been optimized for the test. That's why the real test will be Acid4 since the requirements for that won't be published and therefore actual standards will need to be implemented in order to pass.

Odd, Safari on both my MacBook and my iPhone passed 100%.

/shrug.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Who says?

As for the test itself:
Considering that Safari doesn't actually hold up the standards of the Acid3 test, it's just optimized to pass it, I doubt that Mobile Safari would actually score 100/100 had it not been optimized for the test. That's why the real test will be Acid4 since the requirements for that won't be published and therefore actual standards will need to be implemented in order to pass.

Odd, Safari on both my MacBook and my iPhone passed 100%.

/shrug.

Please read what I write.

And no. Safari on your iPhone did not pass. There are artifacts that do not match the rendered image, just because it says 100/100 does not mean it passed.

 

[CylonGlitch]

Please read what I write.

And no. Safari on your iPhone did not pass. There are artifacts that do not match the rendered image, just because it says 100/100 does not mean it passed.

Do you have proof to back it up that Safari doesn't actually have compliance to the standards? My recall is that communities have a tendency to get all upset when a company lies to make something pass. Oh, I recall this happening both nVidia and ATI a few years ago; both had done things to make themselves look better in the test suites. Once it was revealed there was a whole lot of stink about it.

So, I ask, what's the proof that they are cheating and why isn't there a big stink about it? I'm sure MS would LOVE to use that info in their commercials.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Do you have proof to back it up that Safari doesn't actually have compliance to the standards? My recall is that communities have a tendency to get all upset when a company lies to make something pass. Oh, I recall this happening both nVidia and ATI a few years ago; both had done things to make themselves look better in the test suites. Once it was revealed there was a whole lot of stink about it.

So, I ask, what's the proof that they are cheating and why isn't there a big stink about it? I'm sure MS would LOVE to use that info in their commercials.

Do you not remember when the browsers started passing the Acid3 test?
The very group that puts together the tests made a stink about it.
The only reason why it didn't blow up is because it appeared all browsers were artificially raising their scores in standards tests.

 

[CylonGlitch]

Do you not remember when the browsers started passing the Acid3 test?
The very group that puts together the tests made a stink about it.
The only reason why it didn't blow up is because it appeared all browsers were artificially raising their scores in standards tests.

According to Wikipedia (and other sources)
Browsers which pass

Note that only stable, public releases are listed here (alpha and beta versions, for example, would not qualify).
Desktop browsers
Browser Score 100/100 Pixel-perfect rendering Performance
Safari 4.0 (8 June 2009) [26] Yes Yes Yes
Opera 10.00 (1 September 2009) [27] Yes Yes No
Mobile browsers
Note: For mobile browsers it is not possible to consider the "performance" portion of the test, as mobile browsers cannot be run on the reference hardware.
Browser Score 100/100 Pixel-perfect rendering
Iris Browser 1.1.4 (14 March 2009) [25] Yes Yes


Yes, I see the failure on the Mobile Safari now, the little pink box. Gotcha.

EDIT : BTW, found nothing when searching for "Safari 4 cheats acid 3 test" in google; maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.
EDIT2 : Searching www.acidtests.org and www.webstandards.org didn't find anything about them cheating as well.