Microsoft Previews Windows 8 for Tablets and PCs

[KnightWRX]

I was seeing if we were all on the same page with what we meant by rewritten. Obviously if its advertizing an upgrade some changes are done.

Of course, but do you really need to rewrite that string handling routine ? That socket API ? The message passing sub-system ? Of course not. It works, it's been tried and tested and you don't need to add to it to implement new features.

The Initially statement was that Windows needed a TOTAL rewrite, one of the responses was it was a rewrite.

My response was about the initial statement. Rarely does anything need a "total" rewrite. A lot of code is debugged, working and still extensible/clean. Why rewrite it ? Rewriting makes sense if a piece of code doesn't permit extending it anymore or implementing a new feature on top of it means adding so much code for edge cases that the "standard path" becomes a edge case itself. Then you just rewrite to make the standard path more flexible.

A total re-write can make a big difference. We can see that with difference between FCP7 and FCP X for instance.

And even that isn't a total rewrite I bet. No one ever sits down, hits "New Project" and starts with a blank template once you've got a big enough code base. There's always something that's tried, true, tested, debugged that you don't need to change.

Heck, even implementing ARM support in the Windows kernel doesn't require a total rewrite. The NT kernel is written with portability in mind and at a time ran on 4 different architectures at the same time (MIPS, PPC, Alpha, x86 with an unofficial SPARC port which I'm not counting). It still runs on at least 3 right now (x86, x86_64 and ia64).

 

[linuxcooldude]

A tablet doesn't need 4 cores today because they don't do anything serious (productivity). I don't want to carry a laptop, a tablet and a phone in my bag. If I had all of them in the same package it would be nice. I don't care losing a couple of hours of battery life. If It can provide a MBP-class battery life, It's enough to me.

I don't see the iPad as a desktop replacement, but rather a secondary device to use when outside the office. Obviously its usefulness depends on the user. Some people have a real need for something more powerful so a laptop would be ideal.

I see the iPad as an extension of ones office and think it would be fairly productive if used within its limitations.

 

[brdeveloper]

I think Windows 8 is absolutely terrible.... I use windows all the time even more so than OSX (Only because of gaming and using 3DS Max) and windows 8 is just not going to happen on my machines.

If you class yourself as a professional user... for example in my case I need to find files quick and open up 3DS Max and drag my files into the icon to load them etc. You dont get your traditional "My Documents" Tab on the start menu or any other shortcuts there to get you directly to a zone you wish to be in...

Instead you have to right click open windows explorer and find it that way which is stupidly annoying and time wasting and frustrating...

The Metro interface is ridiculous... when the operating system is getting in the way of your work it FAILS as an operating system.. all these stupid pull out setting bars etc that block the app your currently viewing by almost 1/4 of the screen is stupid.

Why on earth would the metro interface be the boot to screen for a none touch screen machine.. I can see it obviously being useful for tablets etc but on a desktop its pointless...its like running 2 Operating systems all the time and popping in and out of the other... totally frustrating for users who want to do work without the operating system jumping at you every 5 seconds like a kid asking "Look at this look at this! Look what I have made!"


I hope they seriously improve the actual real desktop features and bring back the missing parts before release or im sticking with 7.... at the moment running windows 8 is like having a kids V-TECH laptop. The UI is ludicrous.

You'll probably be able to default to classic mode. You're still able to switch Win7 UI to WinXP-like interface without aero enhancements. So doesn't seem Win8 won't allow such backward-usability if you prefer it.

 

[Therbo]

Ok, so you'll buy an iPad. I will buy an Win8 tab because I'm able to draw Avatar mockups or playing half-life 2 in low-quality. Seriously speaking, I would like to browse the internet when I was in a café and plug my tab in a monitor and bluetooth keyboard / mouse at work. Also, I'd like to watch HD movies at home and maybe do video calls using my home wi-fi network. All with the same device. If you prefer mantaining a Macbook, iPad and iPhone, good to you.

I like to have alternative options. If Apple could provide an OSX+iOS tablet, that would be nice too.

I believe if you wan't to draw, a pen and paper may be better?

The Tablet and PC markets are seperate, and its better that way. Why do you think Windows /Slates/ hardly sold at all, it was just easier to get a desktop/laptop.

Microsoft will learn the hard way, just like it did with Zune and Windows Phone, and Windows XP Tablet Edition.

 

[chocolaterabbit]

You know, *LTD*, you write your posts fairly eloquently. I wonder what would have been achieved if you had put your efforts towards a proper writing endeavour rather than posting pro Apple/anti MS platitudes and rhetoric.

Currently, everyone of your posts are down ranked into oblivion, and I would hate to think that your posts are going unread because people are just skipping all the down ranked posts.

 

[KingCrimson]

You know, *LTD*, you write your posts fairly eloquently. I wonder what would have been achieved if you had put your efforts towards a proper writing endeavour rather than posting pro Apple/anti MS platitudes and rhetoric.

Currently, everyone of your posts are down ranked into oblivion, and I would hate to think that your posts are going unread because people are just skipping all the down ranked posts.

I know people like *LTD* who think that Apple represents the pinnacle of human genius and MSFT is the waste-bin of it.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Since this wasn't even a beta shown but a DEMO - how can either of you even make that assertion. Ridiculous.

You want to criticize the OS - my suggestion is install it and use it when it's available. Otherwise - you're just spouting off at the mouth.

Actually it's another orifice.

 

[APlotdevice]

Ok, so you'll buy an iPad. I will buy an Win8 tab because I'm able to draw Avatar mockups or playing half-life 2 in low-quality. Seriously speaking, I would like to browse the internet when I was in a café and plug my tab in a monitor and bluetooth keyboard / mouse at work. Also, I'd like to watch HD movies at home and maybe do video calls using my home wi-fi network. All with the same device. If you prefer mantaining a Macbook, iPad and iPhone, good to you.

I like to have alternative options. If Apple could provide an OSX+iOS tablet, that would be nice too.

Are you really going to want to do everything on an ARM device? (Or an x86 device?)

While I personally use my iPad for way more than just "consuming media", there are still some tasks where its energy sipping architecture just doesn't cut it. For those I switch to my PC. Having Windows running on similar hardware would not solve this issue. And at the same time a decent x86 machine would need a much larger battery to even come close to the same operating times.

 

[KingCrimson]

Actually it's another orifice.

If you hate MSFT so much why post in this thread?

 

[samcraig]

I believe if you wan't to draw, a pen and paper may be better?

The Tablet and PC markets are seperate, and its better that way. Why do you think Windows /Slates/ hardly sold at all, it was just easier to get a desktop/laptop.

Microsoft will learn the hard way, just like it did with Zune and Windows Phone, and Windows XP Tablet Edition.

Or maybe people weren't ready for them. Or maybe it's more of a niche product instead of a mainstream product.

I had a compaq pen tablet (in the 90s) that was exactly what I needed and did the job fantastic. And this was with Windows 3.1 for Pen Computing.

As more and more people want to ditch carrying a laptop and prefer more of a touch experience - they will eventually want and need more power. They will also want OPTIONS. IE - I want to use this as a tablet - but also doc it when I am at home so I don't NEED multiple devices.

This is when a tablet with even one USB port and better specs will be very welcome.

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If you hate MSFT so much why post in this thread?

I think you misinterpreted. I think he means to say that some people are talking out of their behinds

 

[linuxcooldude]

And even that isn't a total rewrite I bet. No one ever sits down, hits "New Project" and starts with a blank template once you've got a big enough code base. There's always something that's tried, true, tested, debugged that you don't need to change.

I'm aware that hardly anything is started from a blank slate. But obviously some software code is newly rewritten more then others.

 

[AAPLaday]

The developer build has been downloaded 500,000 times so far. Not bad

 

[brdeveloper]

I believe if you wan't to draw, a pen and paper may be better?

They probably would.

The Tablet and PC markets are seperate, and its better that way. Why do you think Windows /Slates/ hardly sold at all, it was just easier to get a desktop/laptop.

Microsoft will learn the hard way, just like it did with Zune and Windows Phone, and Windows XP Tablet Edition.

Even if MS could provide a switchable UI with a mobile view and a desktop view? An ordinary customer could never being aware of desktop functionality if he didn't care. On the other hand, a geek could launch a terminal, install games, productivity apps and so on. This is already what happens today: ordinary Mac and PC users barely know how to browse a file manager. Most users don't know they have a terminal and are able to insert "fine tuning" commands through it.

In short, there are desktop users that uses it "as a tablet", that is, just browsing, reading, playing casual games. Why wouldn't exist tablet users who would like using it as a desktop sometimes?

 

[KnightWRX]

I'm aware that hardly anything is started from a blank slate. But obviously some software code is newly rewritten more then others.

Parts of it, sure, again when it makes sense. Like when moving your UI from Carbon to Cocoa. Or when making your software suddenly multi-platform, you'll probably want to rewrite UI code or abstract some parts (write a low-level framework that's OS specific, with each OS having their own version while you refactor your higher level code to use your own framework instead of the OS specific ones).

I'm just saying that the NT Kernel is hardly in need of a rewrite, much less the whole of the Windows distribution. Of course, some parts are probably rewritten (Vista changed the driver interface architecture, requiring Vista specific drivers) and some parts yet in need of a rewrite.

 

[brdeveloper]

Are you really going to want to do everything on an ARM device? (Or an x86 device?)

While I personally use my iPad for way more than just "consuming media", there are still some tasks where its energy sipping architecture just doesn't cut it. For those I switch to my PC. Having Windows running on similar hardware would not solve this issue. And at the same time an x86 machine would need a much larger battery to even close to the same operating times.

I hope 2013 will provide ARM processors pairing with Atom performance and in some applications they could perform better if they have more than two cores. Add a SSD, an entry-level gpu and you have a premium netbook performance at minimum. This could be enough for a wide range of applications. Maybe not 3d Studio but probably it could run Photoshop, Netbeans, Google Chrome and OpenOffice at decent performance.

Rebuilding or emulation of some applications would be needed at the first moment, but I think the transition is necessary for letting technology to evolve.

 

[Kissaragi]

You know, *LTD*, you write your posts fairly eloquently. I wonder what would have been achieved if you had put your efforts towards a proper writing endeavour rather than posting pro Apple/anti MS platitudes and rhetoric.

Currently, everyone of your posts are down ranked into oblivion, and I would hate to think that your posts are going unread because people are just skipping all the down ranked posts.

I just added him to my ignore list, the thread reads much better after you do that!

 

[brdeveloper]

Parts of it, sure, again when it makes sense. Like when moving your UI from Carbon to Cocoa. Or when making your software suddenly multi-platform, you'll probably want to rewrite UI code or abstract some parts (write a low-level framework that's OS specific, with each OS having their own version while you refactor your higher level code to use your own framework instead of the OS specific ones).

I'm just saying that the NT Kernel is hardly in need of a rewrite, much less the whole of the Windows distribution. Of course, some parts are probably rewritten (Vista changed the driver interface architecture, requiring Vista specific drivers) and some parts yet in need of a rewrite.

I think much of MS fear with supporting non-x86 architectures is because they don't want to lose their huge software/driver base without careful study. This is why MS didn't add PAE (physical address extension, for supporting more than 4GB on 32-bit machines) to desktop OS, but only in the server edition. Supporting non-PC architectures doesn't seem rocket science, however not-so-well-written applications can become incompatible.

 

[KnightWRX]

I think much of MS fear with supporting non-x86 architectures is because they don't want to lose their huge software/driver base without careful study. This is why MS didn't add PAE (physical address extension, for supporting more than 4GB on 32-bit machines) to desktop OS, but only in the server edition. Supporting non-PC architectures doesn't seem rocket science, however not-so-well-written applications can become incompatible.

Again, the NT kernel is multi-platform. It ran on PPC, MIPS, Alpha and x86 in the 90s. My Windows NT 4.0 Workstation CD has a folder for each and I could install it on any if I had access to machines with these hardware architectures (no, I'm not buying an SGI Octane to prove it). It still does run on 3, 1 of which is a high-end non-PC architecture (ia64, Itanium if you will. Not everyone can afford a HP Integrity box )

I'll say that Microsoft didn't add PAE to the desktop versions for another reason : justifying the server version. A lot of the features of the server version of Windows could just as easily run on the desktop version and vice-versa, let's face it, same kernel/drivers/etc... But they needed some added value to the server versions, hence why the Workstation versions always had these little features removed. I has nothing to do with fear of supporting non-PC architectures, Microsoft did do that and still does.

 

[divinox]

I have never heard anyone say Macs are terrible, which is why I eventually left Windows for Mac.

Macs are terrible. Now go use Linux!

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Well look... I actually like using windows to some extent... well windows 7 anyway... it runs fine looks good although yes has some faults and generally crashes more often than OSX.

I really enjoy OSX more as an OS to use but due to programs still not being available on OSX windows is a must for me. So I dont mind using windows 7, however windows 8 is ridiculous. I will never switch to that unless something is drastically done about the actual desktop features.

Looks like Lion and 7 only for me, thats cool though because both work pretty much great for what I use them for.

Running on half the ram, and killing a bunch of processes - while giving you lots of additional features, and a whole new stack is not enough for you? What do you want really? A rainbow flying out of its ass?

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Windows needs a total rewrite!

W8 is as close as youll get. Enjoy.

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Of course it does.

All Windows 8 is, is a bad UI overlay on top of same old Windows. That's essentially what it is.

MS doesn't have the guts or the daring to be *that* progressive and forward-looking to do a complete re-thinking and re-imagining of Windows (and to finally drop the old and tired "Windows" brand.) That's for other, more dynamic and quicker competitors to do.

No, thats not even close to "what it is". Ever considered educating yourself on the issues you want to dip your nose in? Honestly, i'm dying to know.

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We're definetly not using the same Lion that you're referring to then.



Really, what makes you say that? A few tiles chucked around here n there and sure it must be rewrite!

All this excitement over Windows 8, lets hope you guys don't get lost in all that WOW

What makes you say that it isnt? A few glances at some screen shots, and 30 seconds of youtube video? Admit it, you really know nothing about W8 - you just want to rant. Say it, we both know its true.

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Yeh, like we're going to start building films like Avatar on a tablet, or start playing Half-Life 2. Theres some things you just don't need nor work on a tablet.

Thats the upside of the MSFT ecosystem. If you do want a tablet that can build films, or play HL2 you can get one. If you dont want one, you can buy the equivalent of a $399 laptop instead (you know, those things that are constantly bashed around here - cause Apple doesnt make them).

Choice. Some people want and need a quad core processor, some dont. The benefit of not having Apples approach is that we can have both (for better and for worse).

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I believe if you wan't to draw, a pen and paper may be better?

The Tablet and PC markets are seperate, and its better that way. Why do you think Windows /Slates/ hardly sold at all, it was just easier to get a desktop/laptop.

Microsoft will learn the hard way, just like it did with Zune and Windows Phone, and Windows XP Tablet Edition.

In 5 years, when MSFT has sold another half bill. to a billion, will you admit that you were wrong?

 

[ct2k7]

I just added him to my ignore list, the thread reads much better after you do that!

You're not the only one.

 

[linux2mac]

Macs are terrible. Now go use Linux!

I do. I use both. For a client, I prefer OSX. I consider OSX a very polished Linux distro.

 

[ct2k7]

I do. I use both. For a client, I prefer OSX. I consider OSX a very polished Linux distro.

You said OS X was a very polished Unix distro. Also, what do you mean by Unix?

It can't be both.

 

[PlipPlop]

I just got the developer build and all I can say is wow. So fast and responsive and thats just using my keyboard and mouse. Everything is so fast and smooth. Once again Microsoft have shown Apple how you make a modern OS. This is going to be massive on tablets.

 

[coldmack]

Real Macheads don't seem to represent Apple's market, who are buying Macs in record numbers. Nor are the opinions of "real Macheads" better than anyone else's.

Yes, because those people are sheep, buying everything Apple is selling them. Real Macheads know what is up and that why they are still with their PPC macs and excited for the iPad cause its a glimpse of an ARM based Macbook or something.

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With the right iPad case, I don't really see the issue of durability being a factor.

Wait there is a shock-proof case for the iPad? I want it.

 

[AidenShaw]

This is why MS didn't add PAE (physical address extension, for supporting more than 4GB on 32-bit machines) to desktop OS, but only in the server edition.

I'll say that Microsoft didn't add PAE to the desktop versions for another reason : justifying the server version.

There's also the minor issue that few, if any, of the desktop chipsets supported PAE. The multi-socket server chipsets did support it, however.

Bing! for something like "I put 4 GiB of RAM in my system, but my x64 OS only sees 3.25 GiB". That's the hallmark of a chipset with 32-bit physical addressing.

And that's for recent chipsets that support x64 CPUs. The 1998-era Pentium II system that I built had a 440BX chipset with a max of 384 MiB physical memory.

So, yes Microsoft did want to segment their markets, but very few desktop systems could use more than 4 GiB.

I do. I use both. For a client, I prefer OSX. I consider OSX a very polished Linux distro.

You said OS X was a very polished Unix distro. Also, what do you mean by Unix?

It can't be both.

Ooops.