Microsoft Previews Windows 8 for Tablets and PCs

[divinox]

Metro UI probably is not a fullscreen application running on top of the standard Explorer.exe UI indeed. It's probably on the same level as explorer.exe if anything. They've probably finally come up with a way to load/unload UIs dynamically (while it was always possible with Windows NT, it was never configurable as such nor was it ever supported. Sure you could always just kill explorer.exe, bring up task manager and then run a new UI process like litestep or progman or whatever...).

If only i got a penny for each time i had to kill explorer.exe.... but yeah, thats what i assume they did. Not that they've been that clear on the Metro, but we have statements about the desktop "just being another app".

But as far as OS design goes and comments I've seen here, no, it doesn't run in the "Core". It's a pluggable module on top. We're not in 1985 here, OSes are modular and very much a whole made up of parts. Here's the Windows NT 4.0 architecture diagram describing API sub-systems for instance (first one to come up on a quick google search, not bothering to find an updated version for Windows 7) :

Wont argue against that. If it was anything but modularized i would be very surprised.

I'm sure we could find one for the graphics display sub-systems from kernel to user interface if we digged far enough (not interested in doing it, just run Linux if you want to know about these things, it's transparent about such things in way proprietary OSes are not).

My interest in architecture related issues is quite slim, as i am in the research side of ICT rather the more hardcore dark side of things :- )

 

[ri0ku]

They cannot give a preview of something that is not, quite simple. Still, my point remains. Many of the (valid) complaints made here are not relevant in the narrow context of providing developers with a preview of what is to come.

As a developer i really dont need to know how the hell MSFT will sort issues stemming from the "missing desktop start menu". As a user, i do, but this release is not intended for "me the user", but "me the developer".

I have full confidence that most of the issues here raised will be dealt with extensively through the public beta and all other usability testing that MSFT will pursue. MSFT may be a bit grey around the edges, but theyre not daft.

----------



So is firefox though. At least from my own personal experience. Maybe im running some ****** version.

They have already stated and have showed us that this is how they want consumers to use the OS.... they have been explaining the UI and showing us how it is used.. I highly doubt they will be scrapping or changing any of it since they seem so confident and chuffed that they have built it...

If the navigation remains then this is another vista. People will do the "I will just stick with 7 thanks" just like the "vista? no way xp for me"

There isnt anything special about what they have created.... its all a mess.. even the UI is messy theres a thousand different ways to do 1 thing... its just to much.... Its clear that they have had tablet stuck in there minds for ages now... and as a result the desktop has suffered.

 

[KnightWRX]

pfft.. The average man on the street doesn't give a sheet about "interoperability and standards support"...

That's cool, I don't give a sheet about the average man on the street either. Thankfully, IE is losing steam and market share, so the end result is the same to me : We're getting interop and standards back and wresting control away from Microsoft. We're finally moving forward again.

 

[ZipZapRap]

So is firefox though. At least from my own personal experience. Maybe im running some ****** version.

You know, in the past three weeks, after a couple of Firefox updates, I've noticed Firefox really slow down my system when opening multiple tabs.
Wheras before, I could, and regularly had 5-6 windows, each running 15-20 tabs, now that will impact performance.

----------

That's cool, I don't give a sheet about the average man on the street either.

Yes you do. The average man in the street is what's made Apple into the giant it is today.

 

[divinox]

MS even publishes a lot of their R&D. They have a whole website dedicated to their research division. You can download the tablet software (One Note and InkSeine) that inspired the Courier concept.

Unlike other companies' more limited portfolio, MS also has divisions creating software for automobiles (Sync), embedded control systems, projects like Surface and gaming.

I do wish they'd move more stuff from R&D into mass production.



I think most people haven't seen a BSOD in years. In my experience, I'm far more likely to get caught with a (seemingly eternal) spinning beachball.

1) Well, i think its just a case of being too product oriented in ones approach to their R&D. This is exploration. Some things surely do find their way in to products that are later mass produced, but one must remember that there is a clear rationale for doing R&D that is not made with the sole intent of mass production x years down the line. I think were seeing multiple interesting developments already. Take the kinect e.g., packaged as some funky lo-fi gaming utility. That very same technology can be used in more ways than i can even imagine. Or look at the way in which the WP fed tons of voice data into MSFT servers, allowing them to improve voice control for their console.

The beauty lies not so much in the applicability of the individual endeavors, but what they find, solve, and create during these exploratory research projects. Look at the stuff they did at PARC, such as portholes or work related to smart tables and tangible computing. The reason they were so fantastic projects research wise is not that they came up with these brilliant products, but that the exploration of said (non-marketable) products rendered incredibly valuable insights that could then be abstracted out and implemented elsewhere.

(And, as far as BSOD goes i havent seen one in a couple of years i think - well, not on my own computer at least. Spinning beachballs i encounter every week when i'm at work).

----------

You know, in the past three weeks, after a couple of Firefox updates, I've noticed Firefox really slow down my system when opening multiple tabs.
Wheras before, I could, and regularly had 5-6 windows, each running 15-20 tabs, now that will impact performance.

----------



Yes you do. The average man in the street is what's made Apple into the giant it is today.

No, Apples approach to the average man is what made Apple into the giant it is today. Making sure things run as one could expect i would argue ran at the very core of that approach (apple being vertically integrated of course had less issues to worry about, as they could enforce any standard they saw fit, but that doesnt really change the importance of interoperability and such for the end user).

 

[KnightWRX]

Yes you do. The average man in the street is what's made Apple into the giant it is today.

You assume that makes me care about him why exactly ?

Again : I don't care about what the average man on the street thinks as far as browsers go. I'm not changing my opinion of Microsoft or Internet Explorer based on his flawed analysis of the situation because frankly he has no grasp about what has been going on.

Your insistence that I should value his opinion on this is asinine to say the least.

 

[chagla]

Windows 8 free download for everyone

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/home/

Microsoft is allowing everyone to download and use W8 for 1 year. check the link above.

 

[divinox]

They have already stated and have showed us that this is how they want consumers to use the OS.... they have been explaining the UI and showing us how it is used.. I highly doubt they will be scrapping or changing any of it since they seem so confident and chuffed that they have built it...

Yes, they want us to use Metro. I want to use Metro, many others feel like me. They have not said "We will not do anything to make shifting between Metro and Desktop seemless", on the contrary they have said the exact reverse.

Ergo: They will not scrap anything. Nor will they change their fundamental approach. You are however confusing matters in more ways than i can even begin to explain. MSFT is not in the business of messing with businesses and their productivity. If you dont understand that, well... what can i say.

The only thing we have to go by at this moment are the statements made by MSFT. These statements are quite clear in respects of smooth transitioning between paradigms. If they succeed is one thing, a highly debatable thing too one might add, but one cannot based on a developer preview draw any conclusions regarding that.

If the navigation remains then this is another vista. People will do the "I will just stick with 7 thanks" just like the "vista? no way xp for me"

And if the navigation is as flawed as you think, why would it not change? Any rational argument behind your reasoning?

There isnt anything special about what they have created.... its all a mess.. even the UI is messy theres a thousand different ways to do 1 thing... its just to much.... Its clear that they have had tablet stuck in there minds for ages now... and as a result the desktop has suffered.

I'd say they made several things that are special, at least in comparison with earlier iterations of the OS. As for a thousand different ways, i wouldnt say no to a million, as long as one of these ways is the one i see fit (whats up with people on apple board and choice?).

And once more, if you dont get pre-release software, dont use it. No one forced you, or the other half million (now million?) to download it in first place. (See what i did there?)

 

[KnightWRX]

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/home/

Microsoft is allowing everyone to download and use W8 for 1 year. check the link above.

It's important to note this is aimed at developers :

The Windows Developer Preview is a pre-beta version of Windows 8 for developers.

This is not just a "free version of W8 for a year". It's not meant for end-users.

 

[ri0ku]

Yes, they want us to use Metro. I want to use Metro, many others feel like me. They have not said "We will not do anything to make shifting between Metro and Desktop seemless", on the contrary they have said the exact reverse.

Ergo: They will not scrap anything. Nor will they change their fundamental approach. You are however confusing matters in more ways than i can even begin to explain. MSFT is not in the business of messing with businesses and their productivity. If you dont understand that, well... what can i say.

The only thing we have to go by at this moment are the statements made by MSFT. These statements are quite clear in respects of smooth transitioning between paradigms. If they succeed is one thing, a highly debatable thing too one might add, but one cannot based on a developer preview draw any conclusions regarding that.



And if the navigation is as flawed as you think, why would it not change? Any rational argument behind your reasoning?



I'd say they made several things that are special, at least in comparison with earlier iterations of the OS. As for a thousand different ways, i wouldnt say no to a million, as long as one of these ways is the one i see fit (whats up with people on apple board and choice?).

And once more, if you dont get pre-release software, dont use it. No one forced you, or the other half million (now million?) to download it in first place. (See what i did there?)

You are really confusing to understand... you contradict yourself on many levels in your own posts.... You just said "They will not scrap anything" then you say 'what makes you think they wont change it?" even you yourself just explained they will not.

You also said "MSFT is not in the business of messing with businesses and their productivity. If you dont understand that, well... what can i say. "

So you would say changing the normal way in which windows is used by million especially in business each day is not messing with productivity? because I can tell you.. it very well does.

Do you do much work in windows? for example do you have to continually back up files, constantly create back up files every 2 minutes (in max for me) run many art programs with different output file formats which have to be kept in neat and tidy locations to find them whenever you have made a mistake or a problem has occured? the ease of simply dragging your files onto the program icon to launch them from my documents etc?

I hate clutter.. I dont want to have a stupid button that links me to libraries on the taskbar... i want that space left as much open as possible for all the other important things I use. My computer/documents etc should still be on the start menu like every single windows user has known for 20+ years.

Changing one of the most well known ways of navigating to your files for thousands of users is a serious design flaw.

I know you might say why not make the shortcut on the desktop... etc no.. why should I create more clutter? it should be there in the first place in the main menu.

I dont want to have to jump into metro to launch an app either... i want it in my program list... i dont want thousands of shortcuts on my desktop either by going into my computer finding the programs and getting around it this way. They should all me located as usual in the main and mostly used button in all of windows. However this isnt the case, instead clicking on the button that every single windows user uses probably the most and knows the most will take you to the child like UI of Metro. If you however over it you get some pointless shortcuts... share? why cant that just be a right click move? replace it with Documents or programs...

The navigation is terrible, you can explain however you want that its fine... or that it should be this way. If you think thats productive then you are either crazy... or dont do the multiple work flow I have to do every day. It destroys the way of working.

I am not using the preview as my main os... why do you keep saying "You dont have to use it no one is forcing you.." I am aware of that christ... I downloaded it to try it out and see how they have got on and see what they have produced. Now I have given my own thoughts on it and why I think its terrible. What is wrong with that? is it because you disagree and think I am wrong? is that whats so bad?

Its opinion. No matter what you say to me you are wrong in my eyes because I know what I use the OS for. Likewise if you are happy with using what I think its a childlike UI then you arnt wrong in wanting to use it and thinking its good... thats your decision.

 

[samcraig]

Changing one of the most well known ways of navigating to your files for thousands of users is a serious design flaw.

For what it's worth - I think Apple pretty much did this with it's Finder in Lion. Changing the way I interact with directories/servers/etc was/is annoying. Maybe it's not as "radical" - but the change has annoyed me and many others that I've spoken to. Sample size limited, of course

 

[ri0ku]

For what it's worth - I think Apple pretty much did this with it's Finder in Lion. Changing the way I interact with directories/servers/etc was/is annoying. Maybe it's not as "radical" - but the change has annoyed me and many others that I've spoken to. Sample size limited, of course

I understand this, however the change is no where near as big as replacing the actual way it functions by 100% At least some of the features and navigation are there or are similar...

The new Windows 8 way is a completely different solution to a none problem. Seems absolutely ridiculous if you ask me.. changing the most used button/menu in your 20+ OS to something absolutely no where near similar

The current start menu in 8 is a "Menu" that takes you to another "Menu (metro)" to locate the thing you want to locate in a obscenely child like looking navigation system. Unless you go through my computer and put all your favored programs on the desktop as shortcuts cluttering your space... or pinning them all to the taskbar again cluttering your working space.

 

[divinox]

Since IE10 was brought up and i just saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aKP2HyTACcE#!

You are really confusing to understand... you contradict yourself on many levels in your own posts.... You just said "They will not scrap anything" then you say 'what makes you think they wont change it?" even you yourself just explained they will not.

Once more: They will not scrap anything. Nor will they change their fundamental approach.

None of the above implies that no improvements can take place, e.g. with regards to how one navigates the information space.

You also said "MSFT is not in the business of messing with businesses and their productivity. If you dont understand that, well... what can i say. "

So you would say changing the normal way in which windows is used by million especially in business each day is not messing with productivity? because I can tell you.. it very well does.

And, once more you say that based on your experience with not-even-beta pre-release developer software. In simple terms, you're jumping to conclusions based on highly limited data.

This software is not intended to be up to par when it comes to productivity, it was never its intent. Thus, your complaints, while valid, are irrelevant in this context. Why is it that you fail to compute that?

Do you do much work in windows? for example do you have to continually back up files, constantly create back up files every 2 minutes (in max for me) run many art programs with different output file formats which have to be kept in neat and tidy locations to find them whenever you have made a mistake or a problem has occured? the ease of simply dragging your files onto the program icon to launch them from my documents etc?

Not as much as i'd prefer, unfortunately, as i mainly work on my macs. I do have zero doubt however that the same desktop experience upon which i (and a billion others) have come to rely on for a multitude of things will still be there, and more so, be improved upon. Heck, just watching the keynote would point you in that direction. Honestly, do you think the people that actually work at MSFT writing code and such think the desktop as such is a thing of the past?

Like earlier stated, the use of the start menu as a launcher for the Metro seems quite dumb. But besides that, what is your main issue here? The desktop is still there, and if you dont want to do things in Metro, just dont.

I hate clutter.. I dont want to have a stupid button that links me to libraries on the taskbar... i want that space left as much open as possible for all the other important things I use. My computer/documents etc should still be on the start menu like every single windows user has known for 20+ years.

Like stated, i agree with regards to the start-menu. That choice seems fairly odd, and i guess they will be told so plenty of times during the open beta. It is, however, IRRELEVANT IN THE CONTEXT OF DEVELOPER PREVIEW SOFTWARE. (sorry for the bold-type, but when will you get it?)

Changing one of the most well known ways of navigating to your files for thousands of users is a serious design flaw.

Yes, but for this context highly irrelevant (and something that is quite easy to change after all - heck, just make it open the Metro on HOLD rather than CLICK and were all set...*)

* obviously we cant rely solely on keyboards or mouses here, even though i'd be damned if there werent a bunch of shortcuts for the tech-savvy to use.

Addendum: Heck, just make the start menu pop on hover... even easier. Why the **** do we need to click it anyway, not like we make that many unintentional mouse swipes in the corner of the screen.

I know you might say why not make the shortcut on the desktop... etc no.. why should I create more clutter? it should be there in the first place in the main menu.

Was about to give you a tip of a wicked app, but i cant remember its name. Lets you hide and organize your icons very nicely. Double-click toggles and such. Neat indeed. I too love a clean desktop.

Now, besides the start menu being stolen for no apparent reason at all (except that MSFT wants people to use the start button for Metro purposes, which are in many ways completely different from its original use) what are your main beefs? And how are they relevant in the developer software context?

 

[ZipZapRap]

You assume that makes me care about him why exactly ?

Because without the support of said average man, IE would still be the dominant browser in the market. Everything Apple is today, is not because of

Apples approach to the average man is what made Apple into the giant it is today

this, but because of the RESPONSE from the average man to Apple's approach, which could have easily been completely ignored if the average man wasn't as peed off with the complexity in technology at the time the iPod came out... Gawd, we were forced to use Mini discs and Sonicstage then!! (not that iTunes is any better mind you..). I understand this is probably a chicken-egg argument, but it's my belief that joe blog doesn't give a stuff about complexity in anything tech.

Your insistence that I should value his opinion on this is asinine to say the least.

ho-hum

 

[samcraig]

I understand this, however the change is no where near as big as replacing the actual way it functions by 100% At least some of the features and navigation are there or are similar...

I agree... from a user stand point it's not good and there should be a way to "revert" to a UI that's familiar.

As someone that has been with Office since the beginning - it's very frustrating with each new iteration - although it brings a lot more function and features - the UI has been radically changed and it's often difficult to find menu items/functions that were part of my typical repertoire.

 

[ri0ku]

Since IE10 was brought up and i just saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aKP2HyTACcE#!




Once more: They will not scrap anything. Nor will they change their fundamental approach.

None of the above implies that no improvements can take place, e.g. with regards to how one navigates the information space.



And, once more you say that based on your experience with not-even-beta pre-release developer software. In simple terms, you're jumping to conclusions based on highly limited data.

This software is not intended to be up to par when it comes to productivity, it was never its intent. Thus, your complaints, while valid, are irrelevant in this context. Why is it that you fail to compute that?



Not as much as i'd prefer, unfortunately, as i mainly work on my macs. I do have zero doubt however that the same desktop experience upon which i (and a billion others) have come to rely on for a multitude of things will still be there, and more so, be improved upon. Heck, just watching the keynote would point you in that direction. Honestly, do you think the people that actually work at MSFT writing code and such think the desktop as such is a thing of the past?

Like earlier stated, the use of the start menu as a launcher for the Metro seems quite dumb. But besides that, what is your main issue here? The desktop is still there, and if you dont want to do things in Metro, just dont.



Like stated, i agree with regards to the start-menu. That choice seems fairly odd, and i guess they will be told so plenty of times during the open beta. It is, however, IRRELEVANT IN THE CONTEXT OF DEVELOPER PREVIEW SOFTWARE. (sorry for the bold-type, but when will you get it?)

Yes, but for this context highly irrelevant (and something that is quite easy to change after all - heck, just make it open the Metro on HOLD rather than CLICK and were all set...*)

* obviously we cant rely solely on keyboards or mouses here, even though i'd be damned if there werent a bunch of shortcuts for the tech-savvy to use.

Addendum: Heck, just make the start menu pop on hover... even easier. Why the **** do we need to click it anyway, not like we make that many unintentional mouse swipes in the corner of the screen.




Was about to give you a tip of a wicked app, but i cant remember its name. Lets you hide and organize your icons very nicely. Double-click toggles and such. Neat indeed. I too love a clean desktop.

Now, besides the start menu being stolen for no apparent reason at all (except that MSFT wants people to use the start button for Metro purposes, which are in many ways completely different from its original use) what are your main beefs? And how are they relevant in the developer software context?

My only problems with the whole thing is the navigation... I dont really care much for anything else as long as its running more stables, faster and lets me get on with my work. I totally get the Metro interface for tablets etc... but it really seems to be getting in the way rather than being an option. The program you said you know about sounds like a good idea... why isnt something like that already built into the OS....

I am pretty sure this is what they will keep with some probably tiny little changes... they wouldnt just show the world a new way of using windows.. then before releasing it change the way it is used... because they have been saying this is the best way to use a computer now... so when/if they change it they are going to look pretty stupid... because people will ask "if it was so good and easy to use how come you have changed most of the things you showed us?"

Microsoft : "Customers couldnt use the OS without confusion or frustration"

 

[KnightWRX]

Because without the support of said average man, IE would still be the dominant browser in the market. Everything Apple is today, is not because of

Apple is not what made IE's market share drop. If anything, it's Firefox becoming the "trendy" browser.

this, but because of the RESPONSE from the average man to Apple's approach,

Nothing to do with Apple. Apple is pitiful in browser market share. I don't expect you to understand the dynamics of the browser standards history we've faced for the last 10 years or so if you have not paid attention to it before now. Suffice it to say : Microsoft tried and almost succeeded in making the Web a Microsoft only affair.

 

[kdarling]

Take the kinect e.g., packaged as some funky lo-fi gaming utility. That very same technology can be used in more ways than i can even imagine.

Exactly. I've seen R&D where MS placed tiny camera chips around the edges of a smartphone, so it could recognize both touch and air gestures anywhere around it.

We're still in the dark ages of smartphones, with antique user-activated apps plus a tiny bit of automation. The future is an intelligent companion device that recognizes its surrounding world and remembers its owner's routines.

 

[divinox]

My only problems with the whole thing is the navigation... I dont really care much for anything else as long as its running more stables, faster and lets me get on with my work. I totally get the Metro interface for tablets etc... but it really seems to be getting in the way rather than being an option. The program you said you know about sounds like a good idea... why isnt something like that already built into the OS....

I am pretty sure this is what they will keep with some probably tiny little changes... they wouldnt just show the world a new way of using windows.. then before releasing it change the way it is used... because they have been saying this is the best way to use a computer now... so when/if they change it they are going to look pretty stupid... because people will ask "if it was so good and easy to use how come you have changed most of the things you showed us?"

Microsoft : "Customers couldnt use the OS without confusion or frustration"

I think i were able to somewhat natively toggle icon visibility in W7. Cant say it functioned that well though.

And no, once more they wont change "the new way of using windows". But the new ways is not metro, nor the desktop - its both, eeebony and iiiivory live together in perfect haaaarmony (or so we can hope - that is their vision though).

 

[ct2k7]

I think you're confused about how OS and GUI layers are designed.

Any UI runs on top of the stack. Under the UI (Metro, Explorer, Finder, or any Linux WM/DE) there's usually the display server (be it Quartz, X11 or Windows' own) which runs on top of the graphics sub-system (the framebuffer drivers for your GPU, abstracted out) which runs on top of the Operating System kernel, all in user space (though some OSes moved the graphics driver to kernel space).

I know hour OS and GUI layers are designed, but Metro is not running on top of the AERO GUI layer. It is running on demand, along-side it.

 

[divinox]

The layout is what they are planning though.. this is what they want it to be... the keynotes show this they explain this in there own keynote/showcases they explain how the user uses this terrible navigation system.

The preview has all of that included and in my experience and plenty of others the whole thing is a mess and makes the OS more frustrating to use. The whole metro thing with pops ups etc I get it... it works... for tablets and mobiles... but on a desktop that stupid UI shouldnt be getting in the way of working. The OS should determine the machine it is being installed on and if its a desktop it should keep the UI traditional.

Why do you make me repeat myself:

The plan is having Metro run alongside the Desktop, and do so in a way that allows users to traverse spaces seemless- and effortlessly. Very simple, really. No where in that plan does it say: We need to add conflict between paradigms through overtaking start-menu functionality.

Once more: Its pre-release, and thus, no wonder it is a mess. Similarly, no wonder it is frustrating to use -- it is not even intended for use in first place.

Its like is Ford previewed their new engine, and people were bitching about how the steering wasnt up to par... Really?

 

[ct2k7]

Completely agree with that. The live screen just seems to get in the way, it's all very well to say this is a very early release but this is meant to be the fundamental way that this OS works and just feels clumsy, disjointed and pointless.

I can imagine it will work very well on a phone, tablet or even on a 13" laptop, but on a 24" widescreen monitor it all seems like a waste of space.

For me, the tiles are a decent idea, but they'd have been better off being placed on the desktop and getting rid of the usual icons and sidebar, meaning mouse/keyboard users would still have access to the taskbar for easily switching between apps. This could be hidden when running on a touch-based device.

It doesn't matter whether the Start screen is part of the OS or a layer or anything else, the appearance it gives - for me at least - is that it's just an extra piece of bloat getting in the way whenever you try to do anything. It's as if they took Windows 7 and changed the Start button to fire up Media Centre.

I'm not sure what's you've done - just tried to load to do that, and I'm not getting 850M, at most 600M.

What's your highest memory eater in Task Manager?

At boot, it was using this much RAM:

That means that whatever you were running used about around 500M or slightly less RAM.

 

[divinox]

I'm not sure what's you've done - just tried to load to do that, and I'm not getting 850M, at most 600M.

What's your highest memory eater in Task Manager?

At boot, it was using this much RAM:

Image

That means that whatever you were running used about around 500M or slightly less RAM.

use timg instead of img, to not mess up the layout.

 

[ct2k7]

use timg instead of img, to not mess up the layout.

Fixed

 

[KnightWRX]

I know hour OS and GUI layers are designed, but Metro is not running on top of the AERO GUI layer. It is running on demand, along-side it.

Then we're saying the same thing if you've bothered to read my post.