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MacBH928

macrumors G3
May 17, 2008
8,336
3,728
My fear is that people are not buying macs, because the product line is so weak, but bean counters will interpret that as no one wants macs in the first place so lets quit building computers. They don't realise the decline of Mac platform popularity is because they are doing a bad job.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
I am one of those customers. I've owned some form of Macintosh for the past 20 years & never has there been such a time where the current product line-up, release, support & software quality been so poor.

Made the switch to a Surface Book last month after my 12" rMB was just becoming slower & slower with basic tasks (Thanks 10.12) & I couldn't be happier.

I've owned a Windows PC (custom building being a hobby) since around 2005 so I am well accustomed to the OS - it feels like I have stepped back to the professional approach of OS X 10.6 with regards to interface control & customisation yet retaining many of the modern-era qualities - Windows 10 is just brilliant.

Unless Apple revaluates the Mac line-up, decides a direction for that program and stick with a yearly hardware upgrade then I see the Mac dying within the next 2-3 years.

Bottom line: Ditch Tim Cook & Eddy Cue.

Made my move to the Surface Book in November replacing 13" rMBP, same have never looked back, fantastic notebook. Similar long history with Apple, however little future given the current state of affairs...

More of Apple & Surface Book owners here on MR. Today Apple is only about one thing $$$$, with the customer being very far down the list. I don't need Tim & Co to tell me what I want, inversely they should to listen to what I need for my professional & recreational purposes if they value my business.

Q-6
 

thespacekid

macrumors regular
Jun 26, 2011
134
162
You mean PC makers are discovering that consumers will pay more for a better product? Wow, what a concept. What took them so long to figure that out?
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,640
22,144
Singapore
You mean PC makers are discovering that consumers will pay more for a better product? Wow, what a concept. What took them so long to figure that out?
It's easy to charge a higher price for a product. It's way harder to charge a higher price than an equivalent competing brand (especially if it's a Mac) and convince customers to choose your product over everyone else's.

Apple can afford to do so because of the strength and stickiness of the Apple ecosystem. For anyone else, daring to price your computer higher than or equal to a Mac is tantamount to product suicide.

So it's not that PC makers haven't thought of charging higher prices. It's that they can't!
 

jblagden

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2013
1,162
641
I consider myself an average consumer and I switched from Mac OS back to Windows 10. Not because of Windows 10, but because of Apple's lack of product offering that would have met my needs.

I moved from a 2011 Mac mini to an HP ProDesk 600, and a MacBook to an HP Spectre.

Upside of Windows is that there are plenty of OEMs. If one starts going down a path you don't like, you just choose a different OEM. Just remember, Windows PCS usually only last 5 years, and it's very important to have up-to-date anti-malware, no matter how much safer Microsoft says the latest version of Windows is.

Though, you probably already knew that.
 

chrono1081

macrumors G3
Jan 26, 2008
8,463
4,187
Isla Nublar
I don't get why everyone is "so disappointed" in the new Macbook Pro. Too many people I think fall for the processor number gimmick (which marketers want you to fall for) and don't actually understand these mean pretty much nothing in real world usage.

As someone who got to use a new Macbook Pro for awhile (and now has one on its way) the machines are far faster than anything I've used and I get to use a lot of different equipment (including the latest Surface and high end Windows laptops).

The only problem with the new Macbook Pros is the price, they are very expensive.
 

pol0001

macrumors 6502
Apr 15, 2008
333
138
London
I switched from a 15" MachBook Pro to a Surface Pro 4 two weeks ago, after over 12 years of using Macs. My reasons were:
  • I mainly use Microsoft Office and Lightroom, so no special advantage of using a Mac.
  • I wanted a 2 in 1 device (full desktop OS and touch screen option)
  • I wanted premium build quality.
The price difference between PCs and Apple computer has become so ridiculous wide here in the UK, that for me the extra costs for buying a Mac far outweigh the benefits of Apple computers. With Apple you no longer get your money's worth.

And Windows 10 is a very usable OS. I had to get used to some differences. But now everything is set up and working fine.
 
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mr.bee

macrumors 6502a
May 24, 2007
750
468
Antwerp, belgium
I'm a Mac user for more than 15 years. I did it for the user experience, the "it just works", the design. Could never consider going back to Windows until last year.

I thought they would do somethig great with iWork, specifically numbers. The os is still fine for me, the hardware too actually it's the Pro in software I'm missing for too long.

It says a lot when Apple's own corporate even works on office in VM. Combined with high prices, bugs, and a focus on things I can't relate to, I consider a windows as my next.


And yes, phone and tablet will follow.
 

emm386

macrumors 6502
Feb 5, 2016
297
531
Microsoft also said that each version of Windows was "faster and safer than the previous version".

'...The best iPhone we have ever made...'

That picture with the article really shows how ugly the surface book is when put next to the Macbook Pro, and thats without its ghastly hinge being on show.

Form sometimes follows function for better usability. Apple was once like that too!

My first MacBook for instance:
- battery removal as simple as flipping a dime
- hard drive replacement in less than a minute
- user upgradable RAM
- 2 industry-standard USB ports
- firewire
- optical drive
- external monitor port
- headphone jack
- MagSafe-connector

TL;DR: It was a very beautiful machine, that was also very practical! Which is PRECISELY why I just cannot justify buying a Mac anymore.
 

Steve121178

macrumors 603
Apr 13, 2010
6,405
6,972
Bedfordshire, UK
No matter how much you polish a turd, it will always be a turd.

Keep on polishing, Microsoft.

Your comment is not valid or relevant.
[doublepost=1485631615][/doublepost]
Hardly anyone is paying more than $900 to run Windows on their machines. Get real.

100's of millions of business customers are for a start. Millions and millions of gamers are too. Don't let cold hard facts get in the way of your stupid post though.
 

Appleaker

macrumors 68020
Jun 13, 2016
2,197
4,193
I switched, and i'm not a power user, just someone who wants better hardware, and to be able to play a few games here and there
[doublepost=1485569415][/doublepost]
I still purposely buy laptops without touchscreens. If i want a tablet i'll buy an iPad. But tablets are really not useful anymore considering how big phones have gotten.
I think that both touchscreen notebooks and larger phones, as well as the longer than expected upgrade cycle, is the cause for tablet sales decline. Right now, I would go for an iPad as well as a touchscreen notebook (even a Surface Book) due to the OS. But the new Chrome OS supporting Android could be interesting.
 

happyslayer

macrumors 65816
Feb 3, 2008
1,027
578
Glendale, AZ
Too much whining on this site. I have the new 13" TB MacBook Pro and it is excellent. Handles all my work with ease and always feels fast and speedy and this is the base model. I owned the last two 12" MacBooks before this and they were great. Yeah, you need a dongle or two for connecting old stuff. Not that big a deal. Yeah, they cost more than the average Windows machine but OSX makes it so much better and the build quality is amazing (as always.)

This strange thought that Apple will make some kind of game changing design change every release is crazy. Apple has always done the slow and steady upgrades making things thinner and milking off ports and drives and such. It's part of their general strategy and always has been. And so far, their stuff sells and people (maybe not so much on this site) like them and continue to buy them.

If and when Apple starts to actually lose sales , they will change the design.
 
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lowkey

macrumors 6502a
Jul 16, 2002
840
914
australia
Nothing Pro about it? Except industry leading SSD speeds. More data throughout on four TB3 ports than any other laptop that can drive 2 external 5k monitors. The latest Skylake chips (as I'm sure you're aware, Kabylake quad i7s suitable for the MBP have not yet even been released). And industry leading size and weight for maximum portability.

There is one major problem with these machines. Too expensive!

As a 12"MacBook owner I can tell you're a simple troll. This machine is so compact it's perfect for people on the move. On the plane it's size is perfect. It's snappy. The screen is great and the keyboard imo is completely fine. I've had no problems running any software on it. Indesign runs well. Same with Photoshop. I haven't run Revit on it, but with such a compact screen probably best not to!

It is obvious that the new MBP is a letdown,the worst MBP to date for sure.
there is nothing Pro about it.so limiting and compromised.

and the 12 Inch mire portable MB has major compromises that have been mentioned millions of times.these are not acceptable on any laotop.

yet Apple doesn't seen to care.

no wonder Mac users are switching to Windows more than ever before.

This should be stopped!
All those issues are preventable,with a couple of small design changes to corrent current mistakes.
 
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KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,032
7,875
I moved from a 2011 Mac mini to an HP ProDesk 600, and a MacBook to an HP Spectre.
Out of curiosity, what does the Spectre offer that the 12" MacBook or 13" nTB MacBook Pro do not? Don't get me wrong, I like the Spectre (and would prefer it over the HP Elitebook 820 that I get from work), but it is very similar to those Apple products.
[doublepost=1485646992][/doublepost]
Too much whining on this site. I have the new 13" TB MacBook Pro and it is excellent. Handles all my work with ease and always feels fast and speedy and this is the base model. I owned the last two 12" MacBooks before this and they were great. Yeah, you need a dongle or two for connecting old stuff. Not that big a deal. Yeah, they cost more than the average Windows machine but OSX makes it so much better and the build quality is amazing (as always.)

If and when Apple starts to actually lose sales , they will change the design.

I agree. I have the 12" MacBook and the new 13" Touch Bar model. Fortunately I can afford to keep them both as I like them for different reasons. The Touch Bar is actually pretty useful for system tasks, and should only get better as more programs support it (like Office 2016 soon). If Apple does make any radical changes, I'd like to see a 12" model with a Touch Bar. I really prefer the size and weight of the 12" and that's my "travel Mac."
[doublepost=1485647309][/doublepost]
It says a lot when Apple's own corporate even works on office in VM. Combined with high prices, bugs, and a focus on things I can't relate to, I consider a windows as my next.


And yes, phone and tablet will follow.

I'm guessing Apple corporate uses office in VMs because they need to interact with other companies who use Office for Windows. Microsoft has never released a platform-agnostic version of Office that is fully featured, as they built in too many links to Windows.

Remember IBM switched to a choose-your-own-device strategy and said that overall it was cheaper for them to use Macs since the support costs were lower (even factoring in the VM for specialized applications).
 

dampfnudel

macrumors 601
Aug 14, 2010
4,560
2,597
Brooklyn, NY
Maybe. Been a Mac guy since 2002, shareholder since '09 and bought my first PC - HP Spectre x360 15t. Why? I wanted a better machine than my 11" MBA for on the go photo editing. Wanted either a 13" or 15" screen. The new Macbooks are Meh at best and very overpriced. My main apps - Chrome, PS CS, Office 365 are all dual platform so switching costs are low to nonexistent.

I got the latest Intel CPU, a 4k screen, touch + pen, 16GB, Discrete graphics, 512GB SSD machine for $1499. A comparable 15" MBP was $2799 and no pen/touch input. Had it for a day now and it's very good. Awesome screen, speedy, and, while Win10 is not perfect it is serviceable. For the difference in price I could buy a very nice lens for my camera or even go on a nice vacation! Apple was never that much more expensive.

I'm thinking about getting the new Spectre x360 15t (i7-7500U) with maybe a 1TB SSD. I priced it at about $1,700. Could you tell me if the 4K screen is a pentile display or a true 4K display like the Dell XPS 15 with 4K option. Last year's 15" model with 4K used a pentile display which can show distortions with text.

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Noteb...-15-4K-display-might-be-fake-Pre/td-p/5922024

Test image you can use:

http://i.rtings.com/images/Chroma-444.png

All text in the color bars should be distortion-free, easily readable. Any distorted text will indicate a pentile display that might be okay for the smaller screen of a smartphone, but not for a 15" display. The nits on this display is higher (brighter screen) so it might be a new panel that is true 4K.
 
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jblagden

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2013
1,162
641
I don't get why everyone is "so disappointed" in the new Macbook Pro. Too many people I think fall for the processor number gimmick (which marketers want you to fall for) and don't actually understand these mean pretty much nothing in real world usage.

As someone who got to use a new Macbook Pro for awhile (and now has one on its way) the machines are far faster than anything I've used and I get to use a lot of different equipment (including the latest Surface and high end Windows laptops).

The only problem with the new Macbook Pros is the price, they are very expensive.
I agree with you on the processor number. The rating in GHz is useless because it varies year to year and by architecture. For example, a 2.4 GHz from this year is considerably faster than a 2.4 GHz CPU from 5 or 6 years ago. This difference exists because different architectures and CPUs of different years don’t all perform the same number of Instructions Per Clock. The best unit of measure for CPU speed would be Floating-point Operations Per Second (FLOPS) because it’s a real-world measure of computational capability, which allows you to compare CPUs of different architectures and different years.

But regarding what’s wrong with the new MacBooks, that’s easy.

For starters, the touchbar adds significantly to the price while adding very little in terms of utility. Also, the problem with the touchbar being implemented as a replacement for the function keys is a big pain because the keys there keep changing and you have to look down at the touchbar whenever you want to do anything; the exact opposite of physical function keys.

Then there’s the port situation. The only ports on the new MacBook Pros are USB-C ports, which are pretty useless because only a small amount of peripherals use it, while all USB peripherals from the last ten years or so uses USB-A, so you’ll end up having to plug in an adapter most of the time when you want to plug in a peripheral.

There’s also the issue of storage. Apple charges a premium for its Solid State Drives, which are soldered in and consequently cannot be upgraded or even replaced in the case of failure, making the whole computer disposable. Those of us who like to have extra storage would prefer that the MacBook Pros be as thick as their pre-2012 counterparts so they can contain a traditional hard drive so you can have an inexpensive 2 terabyte hard drive in addition to say, a 512 gigabyte Solid State Drive.

Another issue is the battery. Just like its predecessor, the battery is glued in, making replacement extremely difficult and time-consuming.

And let’s not forget the RAM, which like the other Retina MacBook Pros, is soldered to the board, just like the Solid State Drive.

The RAM and Solid State Drive being soldered to the logic board makes the computer disposable, and yet the price has not changed.

Apple’s making you pay a premium for disposable computers. In the past, many people bought Macs for their longevity. You could be sure to get at least 5 good years out of a Mac, or maybe even 10 if you got a high-end machine like a Mac Pro or if your computational needs could still be satisfied by a ten-year-old Mac. But now, upgrades and part replacements are absolutely impossible. Believe it or not, there are many people who are still using Macs from 2008-2011, who are just hoping that Apple will return to making upgradable Macs before their current Macs die. If Apple’s going to make disposable computers, they should at least lower the price significantly.
 

mr.bee

macrumors 6502a
May 24, 2007
750
468
Antwerp, belgium
I'm guessing Apple corporate uses office in VMs because they need to interact with other companies who use Office for Windows. Microsoft has never released a platform-agnostic version of Office that is fully featured, as they built in too many links to Windows.

Remember IBM switched to a choose-your-own-device strategy and said that overall it was cheaper for them to use Macs since the support costs were lower (even factoring in the VM for specialized applications).

No, ms office for mac is limited, it lacks functionalities, I work with it. I received a dell but prefer working on my mac, for now.
Files shared with Windows goes pretty well actually.
They really don't seem to care about it, Numbers could have been an excel killer, and that's my frustration.
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,032
7,875
No, ms office for mac is limited, it lacks functionalities, I work with it. I received a dell but prefer working on my mac, for now.
Files shared with Windows goes pretty well actually.
They really don't seem to care about it, Numbers could have been an excel killer, and that's my frustration.

I realize Office for Mac is limited. That's on Microsoft, not Apple. I'm guessing Apple hasn't devoted the resources to making Numbers fully featured because it takes a lot of effort, and Apple is still mostly a hardware company, not a software company. As long as Microsoft is committed to making some version of Office available for Apple platforms (macOS and iOS), it probably doesn't make financial sense for Apple to invest in making more than basic iWork applications.
 

Amazing Ox Space Monkey

macrumors regular
Sep 21, 2015
149
144
I love it how the same arguments are iterating every time an article concernig the 2016 MBP appears on the horizon.

At work we use MBPs due to security reasons - there are various crypto viruses for windows and whatnot. The company is rich and can afford macs.

At home I have a 2010 entry level iMac which has a spinning drive and 12GB RAM. In 2017 the entry level iMac is nearly the same as the one from 2010, hard drive size went up to 1TB, processor went down to the 2-core macbook air 1.6GHz so it's basically a MBA with a larger monitor. It's a slower computer with a higher price tag. If I want the new technology like retina screen and ssd, as well as a modern cpu, the price nearly doubles.

The new technology comes at a price I cannot afford. The same with the new MBPs - way too expensive in my view. If I disregard the price I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
 

SteveJUAE

macrumors 601
Aug 14, 2015
4,428
4,635
Land of Smiles
You mean PC makers are discovering that consumers will pay more for a better product? Wow, what a concept. What took them so long to figure that out?
Not sure where you have been but some of the cheapest laptops I have bought over the last 10 years were MAC's

Cutting edge high spec laptops always come at a premium price I was happy to opt for the lesser/cheaper MAC offerings as it suited my preferences at the time providing I could make them productive under BootCamp

Win10 2 in 1 etc have tipped the balance even further these days in favour of the windows family and making MAC's look more like niche and neglected over priced hobbyist platforms for many IMO
 
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lowkey

macrumors 6502a
Jul 16, 2002
840
914
australia
But regarding what’s wrong with the new MacBooks, that’s easy.

Not easy. Just subjective
For starters, the touchbar adds significantly to the price while adding very little in terms of utility. Also, the problem with the touchbar being implemented as a replacement for the function keys is a big pain because the keys there keep changing and you have to look down at the touchbar whenever you want to do anything; the exact opposite of physical function keys.

And yet 3 posts above you is a post from an actual user saying they prefer the touch bar and wish it was also on their 12"MacBook.

Then there’s the port situation. The only ports on the new MacBook Pros are USB-C ports, which are pretty useless because only a small amount of peripherals use it, while all USB peripherals from the last ten years or so uses USB-A, so you’ll end up having to plug in an adapter most of the time when you want to plug in a peripheral.

All USB-a peripherals can connect using a USBC to usba cable. All FireWire can connect to USBC with the appropriate cable. All thunderbolt. HDMI. VGA. You don't need adapters, just cables.

Tell me how you connect a VGA projector to your current laptop? Oh. An adapter. Or the right cable.

USBC has radically more bandwidth than usba. Usba is slow and the port is huge. Not only that but you still need the right cable to go to USB mini. USB micro. Etc etc.

There’s also the issue of storage. Apple charges a premium for its Solid State Drives, which are soldered in and consequently cannot be upgraded or even replaced in the case of failure, making the whole computer disposable. Those of us who like to have extra storage would prefer that the MacBook Pros be as thick as their pre-2012 counterparts so they can contain a traditional hard drive so you can have an inexpensive 2 terabyte hard drive in addition to say, a 512 gigabyte Solid State Drive.

I've never met a real person (ie not on MR) wanting a thicker and heavier laptop. We have a 2012 non retina MBP in our household here. It sits in a drawer unused because it's too bulky to get used daily. The thing is a brick. The future of mobile computing is not heavier machines. :lol:

Another issue is the battery. Just like its predecessor, the battery is glued in, making replacement extremely difficult and time-consuming.

And let’s not forget the RAM, which like the other Retina MacBook Pros, is soldered to the board, just like the Solid State Drive.

The RAM and Solid State Drive being soldered to the logic board makes the computer disposable, and yet the price has not changed.

Fixing the parts also makes the machine thinner and lighter. Given it's a laptop, I'm happy for that to come before upgradability.
If something goes wrong the computer isn't disposed of. The motherboard gets replaced.

That said, the only time I've had ram not work is when it's been unseated in its connectors.

Apple’s making you pay a premium for disposable computers. In the past, many people bought Macs for their longevity. You could be sure to get at least 5 good years out of a Mac, or maybe even 10 if you got a high-end machine like a Mac Pro or if your computational needs could still be satisfied by a ten-year-old Mac. But now, upgrades and part replacements are absolutely impossible. Believe it or not, there are many people who are still using Macs from 2008-2011, who are just hoping that Apple will return to making upgradable Macs before their current Macs die. If Apple’s going to make disposable computers, they should at least lower the price significantly.

My 2013 rMBP is still going strong 4 years later. It's not upgradable. 16gb ram and 512ssd is still plenty. And unfortunately intel hasn't really progressed much in the last few years on the CPU front. The only reason I'd upgrade to a new one is for weight savings.

But here in Australia at the moment they are super expensive with the exchange rate and base price rise. Imo the only real problem with these machines is the price.

Obviously all just my subjective opinion. As is yours.
 
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