Microsoft Supports Epic Games, Says Apple Blocking Access to Unreal Engine Would Harm Game Creators

[ArtOfWarfare]

So because of Epic's willingness to violate the TOS, and Apple's unfair TOS, the smaller guys using the Unreal Engine get to suffer. I'm conflicted. I support Apple enforcing their TOS that Epic agreed and signed, but I don't agree with the actual TOS either. If Apple allowed users to install apps through outside sources like they do with macOS, this wouldn't be an issue. Before people complain about security issues, why does macOS seem to be doing fine? If Apple doesn't want to adjust their TOS, let Epic host their own apps on their own infrastructure and let users download and install them that way.

Similar blanket Terms of Service have been thrown out in court before. If people are told their options are to either agree or to not use the service with no room for negotiation, then they don't actually have an option, and no agreement actually took place.

 

[Appleman3546]

Apple only has to lose once: whether it be to Epic in California, Spotify in Europe, congress, or another country that wants its own app on without being blocked such as India. And if Apple doesn’t do something themselves, the result could be catastrophic for Apple such as: (1) being required to break off the App Store from Apple, (2) requiring that the App Store not be installed by default (aka downloaded from the internet), or (3) Allowing unrestricted browser downloads of apps. Apple should really just cut their fee in half to end most of this controversy, because this will likely be a losing battle in the long run.

 

[Giovannizn]

Epic games isn’t some white knight trying to save consumers. They simply want to gain market share with their store and have tried multiple strategies to do that. What should be regulated is the gambling aspect that has generated billions of dollars off of children.

Imagine them being free to charge children without the parental controls of the platform?

 

[Abazigal]

Epic did this to themselves when they decided to gamble their platform (and its associated developers) going up against a foe that would neither forgive nor forget.

It’s not difficult to salvage the situation. Simply roll back the changes that got you banned in the first place. But if it’s a fight Epic wants, then why act all shocked and surprised when Apple retaliates?

 

[Raist3001]

Well, I'm a small independent developer and I disagree. The 30% is fair for what is offered from Apple's side: tax documentation, billing arrangements in different countries, visibility on the App Store, detailed metrics on usage, and more...

I dislike how 'independent developers' are OK with this until they suddenly become huge companies with million dollar budgets (and profits) - then it's suddenly 'unfair' because what they're paying Apple now amounts to millions of dollars (even though it's still the same 15/30%). It's disgusting actually, and I'll be really annoyed if the big developers pay less proportionally than the smaller ones - that's really unfair (you know, like the US tax system... great model that).

I agree with your points here. However, apple should not be negotiating lower costs to anyone and should have the same costs across the board. Equal for everyone. Tim Cook likes to lobby for equality yet does not see why allowing some companies to pay less is anything but equality?

 

[ouimetnick]

So MS should let me install games from another store on my Xbox and also Playstation.

Definitely they should! But comparing an iOS device to a game console is a bit like comparing apples to oranges (no pun intended) A better analogy is should Apple and Microsoft prevent you from installing 3rd party apps on your Windows or Mac and force you to use ONLY their App Store. An iOS device like an iPad is much closer to a personal computer (actually I think it IS technically a personal computer) than a PlayStation or Xbox.

 

[falainber]

Epic did this to themselves when they decided to gamble their platform (and its associated developers) going up against a foe that would neither forgive nor forget.

It’s not difficult to salvage the situation. Simply roll back the changes that got you banned in the first place. But if it’s a fight Epic wants, then why act all shocked and surprised when Apple retaliates?

This article is actually about Microsoft action. Are you going to ignore the fact that more and more developers are saying that status quo is not sustainable?

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Apple only has to lose once: whether it be to Epic in California, Spotify in Europe, congress, or another country that wants its own app on without being blocked such as India. And if Apple doesn’t do something themselves, the result could be catastrophic for Apple such as: (1) being required to break off the App Store from Apple, (2) requiring that the App Store not be installed by default (aka downloaded from the internet), or (3) Allowing unrestricted browser downloads of apps. Apple should really just cut their fee in half to end most of this controversy, because this will likely be a losing battle in the long run.

But that wouldn't hurt them! It wouldn't hurt users either! Don't allow the downloads unless the user goes into settings, checks a box, and agrees to a bunch of very scary warning prompts. Boom, users are still protected, except for the ones who explicitly ask for protection to be removed. Apple still collects 30% from the App Store, and most apps will still get sold via the App Store, because otherwise most iPhone users won't find you.

This would be much less costly for Apple versus halving their App Store fee, and it would be better for users by giving them freedom over their devices (should they want it). Epic would likely continue trying to fight their lawsuit (after all, they're suing Google even though Android allows sideloading), but their argument would be pretty damn weak.

 

[RPATX33]

Morally, could Apple lower their 30% cut or offer a tiered pricing model for developers and still survive? Probably. Although, I think the way that Epic is trying to make such a huge publicity stunt out of this is a little childish (Seriously? #FreeFortniteCup/Pre-made mocked 1984 video...), especially as a billion dollar company that has benefitted so substantially from the iOS marketplace in the past.

As said previously, "As a developer, the 30% is fair for what is offered from Apple's side: tax documentation, billing arrangements in different countries, visibility on the App Store, detailed metrics on usage, and more..."

Epic is privately owned by Tim Sweeney (CEO) who has a 50% stake, and the Chinese conglomerate Tencent (which also owns TikTok among 600 others) controls 40%. Unfortunately, none of what is going on between Epic and Apple has anything to do with benefiting overall users, it’s all just about which mega-corporation takes home a larger slice of the pie at the end of the day. I'm sure Tim Sweeney is getting pressure from the Chinese about squeezing as much money as possible out of Fortnite.

Epic has a choice, yes Apple takes 30%, but no one is forcing them to host their titles on the Apple App Store. I think as it lies, they're still making way more money with Apple's in-app-purchase cut than not having the game available for iOS users at all. If Epic doesn't like the terms, they should either renegotiate with Apple or continue to host their games on other platforms.

 

[badawat]

So because of Epic's willingness to violate the TOS, and Apple's unfair TOS, the smaller guys using the Unreal Engine get to suffer. I'm conflicted. I support Apple enforcing their TOS that Epic agreed and signed, but I don't agree with the actual TOS either. If Apple allowed users to install apps through outside sources like they do with macOS, this wouldn't be an issue. Before people complain about security issues, why does macOS seem to be doing fine? If Apple doesn't want to adjust their TOS, let Epic host their own apps on their own infrastructure and let users download and install them that way.

Do you mean Epic should release a physical platform?

 

[kuwxman]

I see both sides. Apple wants to control the distribution and of course profit.

epic wants to use Apple eco system and of course profit.

The real issue is the money. Its always about money and the in app purchases.

I hate in app purchases. That’s why I won’t play any mobile games any more.

Why won’t epic offer in app 30 percent cheaper on its own website and people can load coins into their games. Oops. They won’t. They charge the same for fornite via desktop browser vs iOS in app.

*sigh* 1) Fortnite is a free game and 2) adding V Bucks to your account via a desktop browser, Xbox, etc IS cheaper. Them trying to offer V Bucks cheaper in iOS is what got them in 'trouble' with Apple in the first place.

 

[falainber]

Morally, could Apple lower their 30% cut or offer a tiered pricing model for developers and still survive? Probably. Although, I think the way that Epic is trying to make such a huge publicity stunt out of this is a little childish (Seriously? #FreeFortniteCup/Pre-made mocked 1984 video...), especially as a billion dollar company that has benefitted so substantially from the iOS marketplace in the past.

As said previously, "As a developer, the 30% is fair for what is offered from Apple's side: tax documentation, billing arrangements in different countries, visibility on the App Store, detailed metrics on usage, and more..."

Epic is privately owned by Tim Sweeney (CEO) who has a 50% stake, and the Chinese conglomerate Tencent (which also owns TikTok among 600 others) controls 40%. Unfortunately, none of what is going on between Epic and Apple has anything to do with benefiting overall users, it’s all just about which mega-corporation takes home a larger slice of the pie at the end of the day. I'm sure Tim Sweeney is getting pressure from the Chinese about squeezing as much money as possible out of Fortnite.

Epic has a choice, yes Apple takes 30%, but no one is forcing them to host their titles on the Apple App Store. I think as it lies, they're still making way more money with Apple's in-app-purchase cut than not having the game available for iOS users at all. If Epic doesn't like the terms, they should either renegotiate with Apple or continue to host their games on other platforms.

Or they can sue Apple and, perhaps, win?

 

[Wags]

Do we really need post on every company that supports epic and wants more money themselves.

 

[ian87w]

Definitely they should! But comparing an iOS device to a game console is a bit like comparing apples top oranges (no pun intended) A better analogy is should Apple and Microsoft prevent you from installing 3rd party apps on your Windows or Mac and force you to use ONLY their App Store. An iOS device like an iPad is much closer to a personal computer (actually I think it IS technically a personal computer) than a PlayStation or Xbox.

On Windows 10S, you can only install apps from Microsoft App Store.

The console analogy is actually quite apt, as both presents a similar walled garden.

 

[hot-gril]

Definitely they should! But comparing an iOS device to a game console is a bit like comparing apples top oranges (no pun intended) A better analogy is should Apple and Microsoft prevent you from installing 3rd party apps on your Windows or Mac and force you to use ONLY their App Store. An iOS device like an iPad is much closer to a personal computer (actually I think it IS technically a personal computer) than a PlayStation or Xbox.

Microsoft had a phone before, and it was about as locked down as iOS.

 

[ian87w]

Morally, could Apple lower their 30% cut or offer a tiered pricing model for developers and still survive? Probably. Although, I think the way that Epic is trying to make such a huge publicity stunt out of this is a little childish (Seriously? #FreeFortniteCup/Pre-made mocked 1984 video...), especially as a billion dollar company that has benefitted so substantially from the iOS marketplace in the past.

As said previously, "As a developer, the 30% is fair for what is offered from Apple's side: tax documentation, billing arrangements in different countries, visibility on the App Store, detailed metrics on usage, and more..."

Epic is privately owned by Tim Sweeney (CEO) who has a 50% stake, and the Chinese conglomerate Tencent (which also owns TikTok among 600 others) controls 40%. Unfortunately, none of what is going on between Epic and Apple has anything to do with benefiting overall users, it’s all just about which mega-corporation takes home a larger slice of the pie at the end of the day. I'm sure Tim Sweeney is getting pressure from the Chinese about squeezing as much money as possible out of Fortnite.

Epic has a choice, yes Apple takes 30%, but no one is forcing them to host their titles on the Apple App Store. I think as it lies, they're still making way more money with Apple's in-app-purchase cut than not having the game available for iOS users at all. If Epic doesn't like the terms, they should either renegotiate with Apple or continue to host their games on other platforms.

The thing is, Epic is still making money. They still get that 70%. Why is it bad for them to pay more when they’re making even more?

This is not about the IAPs at all. This is about breaking Apple’s iOS platform so Epic (and Tencent) can have their own store on iOS and gather customer data for themselves. Data is the treasure here, and it’s worth more than those game IAPs. Ask Tencent, it’s their forte.

 

[robertcoogan]

I dislike how 'independent developers' are OK with this until they suddenly become huge companies with million dollar budgets (and profits) - then it's suddenly 'unfair' because what they're paying Apple now amounts to millions of dollars (even though it's still the same 15/30%). It's disgusting actually, and I'll be really annoyed if the big developers pay less proportionally than the smaller ones - that's really unfair (you know, like the US tax system... great model that).

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Epic is just being greedy like Apple. No different.

 

[dguisinger]

One way or another Apple is going to lose the fight over control over the platform. Be it via Epic, the EU, or the US Govt. I just don't see them keeping complete control. Yes, you can point to some developers who think 30% was worth it to them for what they got. A lot of developers have griped for years, more are coming public. You can still find people in North Korea who like their dictator, doesn't mean he's a good guy. Picking a handful of people saying they love their benevolant dictator in Apple means nothing in the end, its just a sub-sample of the hole... and the whole has been terrified to speak out or take the fight to Apple. The action of Apple cutting off Epic across the board is less retaliatory, and more of a warning to other developers - "Speak up and I'll shoot your dog, and maybe your family too". It reeks of desperation to tamp down a rebellion during intense anti-trust scrutiny. And it appears to be too little, too late. The rebellion is building. You wouldn't know it from MacRumors or AppleInsider forums, where people worship at Tim Cooks feet... but this too is not a sample of actual opinion from users or developers - just a vocal dedicated group.

Picking stupid fights with organizations like WordPress because they shared online help documentation from their website that happened to mention WordPress paid plans just shows how ridiculously far they are willing to go to force others to give them a share of revenue that they (apple) did not earn.

Now, if Apple is smart, they do it on their own, and in a way where they keep some control... such as opening an installation API that all stores have to follow to make sure parental controls and other safety measures are ensured... or still require developers to sign their apps (which costs Apple nothing) so that Apple can still hit the kill switch on an app that has malware in it. If I were them, I'd also open up cross-platform billing... but encourage the 3rd party payment platforms to use Apple Pay for the security side (it would promote the use of Apple Pay elsewhere). I would drop the ridiculous requirement that you can't even mention how to sign up outside the app - though that becomes less important once they would allow developers to use their own 3rd party payment system/vendor. If they are "losing" too much money from Free apps that have subscriptions, start charging free apps for fixed expenses..... meter the GBs of stored and transferred data, increase your developer fee.


None of this stuff would chase customers from the store.

Apple doesn't need to give away their work and services for free - but it also doesn't deserve subscription revenue for content produced and delivered outside of Apple's infrastructure directly from vendor to customer, no more than buying a magazine from Barns & Noble granted B&N the right to charge a fee for my subscription I signed up for with the publisher after liking the magazine I purchased.

 

[Apple_Robert]

I have a feeling Epic Games is about to get PAID.

Lou is a pathetic, sore loser, man-child with a big chip on his shoulder. Posting a video of him doesn’t add merit to anything.

I don’t think Epic will win anything other than bad publicity.

 

[jakeOSX]

Better fix: government mandates that each platform should allow for alternative app stores. Problem solved!

is the government going to pay for the labor hours to code, document and support alternative app stores?

 

[Red Menace]

Jeez - items that use the Unreal Engine aren't going to be blocked or removed already, just Epic's developer account. All they need to do is comply with the terms of their contract with Apple. I'm sure there are those with Epic that have their own individual account, so all the "won't have access" is just posturing.

These companies don't even have to use IAP, they can sell outside the store like anyone else - they just can't use Apple's ecosystem to advertise it. This is all about forcing Apple to let them advertise in their store, so they won't have to pay for doing it themselves.

 

[UnbreakableAlex]

If apple is ok with amazon to pay just 15% than it should be allowed for everyone.

15% is enough.

Being all greedy is not sexy.

 

[farewelwilliams]

And here lies the problem. Surely, 30% is not much when you are small and this is taken care of but when it gets out small and suddenly you pay millions I'm sure you wouldn't be ok with it.

I would rather Apple introduces tresholds or reduce the fees overall.
The App store is massively profitable for Apple and the profit they make from running just App store is something any other company could dream about. And thats essentially without any hard work.

30% is just too much especially when you grow. I'm with Epic on this one.

How much of the 30% did Apple reinvest back into developers?

The problem is that you have no idea. Developers have *some* idea because we literally can see the benefits of the 30% first hand.

But if you took some time and do some research, you can make estimates from their financial statements and reported numbers.

If you want, I show you my math and sources (it's a long explanation so I'm not going to write it all out unless you want, but I doubt you're going to read). It turns out, Apple in 2019 made about $15 billion in revenue from the App Store cut and I estimated that about $5 billion is reinvested back into the developer platform.

Now, 66% margin is a nice fat margin, but compared to Android, I suspect Apple is investing far more than Google back into the platform.

On Android, Epic *can* already run their own store on Android but they're currently failing to get adoption because no one wants to install it. So asking for a separate store is unlikely to change things as we've already seen, what else does Epic want? Asking Apple to decrease their cut to, let's say, 20% would essentially cut back investments into developers since Apple knows they're ahead of the game in developer side. Cutting back investments is bad for small developers and 80% is only going to benefit large companies.

 

[psingh01]

Well, I'm a small independent developer and I disagree. The 30% is fair for what is offered from Apple's side: tax documentation, billing arrangements in different countries, visibility on the App Store, detailed metrics on usage, and more...

I dislike how 'independent developers' are OK with this until they suddenly become huge companies with million dollar budgets (and profits) - then it's suddenly 'unfair' because what they're paying Apple now amounts to millions of dollars (even though it's still the same 15/30%). It's disgusting actually, and I'll be really annoyed if the big developers pay less proportionally than the smaller ones - that's really unfair (you know, like the US tax system... great model that).

Of course its fair to you. You are getting value from what they are offering you. If you invested in building your own distribution and payment processing system, you might have a different opinion about being forced to use someone else’s and give them a hefty chunk of your revenue in the process.

 

[Wildkraut]

BOOM Shake, shake, shake the room
BOOM Shake, shake, shake the room
BOOM Shake, shake, shake the room
Tick, tick, tick, tick BOOM

Things are getting real good...

#FreeFortnite