Microsoft Takes on Apple's Entry-Level iPad With 10-inch 'Surface Go' Starting at $399

[thatguitarguy]

Hopeless for your definition of work, not mine.

Hopeless for professional business class enterprise work.

That's what I'm talking about. Running full desktop class Office apps, REAL multitasking, Server integration, etc etc etc.

I'm not talking about making a flyer for your garage sale, here. I'm talking about serious productivity.

 

[Royksöpp]

I think it's really cool and If I wasn't an Apple fanboy I would totally give it a try!

 

[AnthonyHarris]

Is not free here,for the windows 10 pro you have to pay 449$

You can buy an OEM Windows 10 Activation Key for about 3$ on eBay and they work. I have one.

 

[Abazigal]

Hopeless for professional business class enterprise work.

That's what I'm talking about. Running full desktop class Office apps, REAL multitasking, Server integration, etc etc etc.

I'm not talking about making a flyer for your garage sale, here. I'm talking about serious productivity.

Which while important, is not the be all and end all of what constitutes real work. I don’t understand why these self-styled productivity gurus feel like they get to lay claim on the term “real work”. Like who died and gave you all the authority to decide what “real work” is or isn’t.

Not everybody sits in an office all day slogging away at spreadsheets and word documents. And honestly, I fail to see how or why designing a quick flier isn’t productive. Work is work, and the device which is able to just get out of our way and let us get our jobs done is the one for us.

There are so many people out there using their iPads for tasks which constitute work for them. Work that they otherwise not have been able to do as seamlessly or as readily on a conventional PC device. I really don’t get why it’s so hard to give them due recognition, and acknowledge that different workflows entail differing form factors, and that PCs are ultimately just one of many different options available.

At the end of the day, it’s just more of the same from Microsoft, who has basically won the desktop but lost mobile. Microsoft knows this.

This product is still catering to the same group of users as before. The people interested in one are not going to be getting an iPad anyways, just as the people whose needs are met by an iPad are unlikely to be interested in said product.

You are basically looking at two Venn diagram circles which barely intersect each other. Said product will sooner cannibalise the sales of other windows devices than the iPad.

 

[thatguitarguy]

Which while important, is not the be all and end all of what constitutes real work. I don’t understand why these self-styled productivity gurus feel like they get to lay claim on the term “real work”. Like who died and gave you all the authority to decide what “real work” is or isn’t.

Not everybody sits in an office all day slogging away at spreadsheets and word documents. And honestly, I fail to see how or why designing a quick flier isn’t productive. Work is work, and the device which is able to just get out of our way and let us get our jobs done is the one for us.

There are so many people out there using their iPads for tasks which constitute work for them. Work that they otherwise not have been able to do as seamlessly or as readily on a conventional PC device. I really don’t get why it’s so hard to give them due recognition, and acknowledge that different workflows entail differing form factors, and that PCs are ultimately just one of many different options available.

At the end of the day, it’s just more of the same from Microsoft, who has basically won the desktop but lost mobile. Microsoft knows this.

This product is still catering to the same group of users as before. The people interested in one are not going to be getting an iPad anyways, just as the people whose needs are met by an iPad are unlikely to be interested in said product.

You are basically looking at two Venn diagram circles which barely intersect each other. Said product will sooner cannibalise the sales of other windows devices than the iPad.

LOL, a quick flyer is NOT real work nor is it truly productive. If you think it is, you need a wake up call and soon and there is no reason for me to continue this discussion with you if this in fact your mindset. I mean I'm not going to bother really.

Also, more people work "slogging away" at Office documents than you care to realize, especially the larger the business.

Let's face it, the iPad sucks at anything more than elementary tasks in business. Just admit it and move on.

Microsoft has NOT failed mobile entirely. Phones and a Phone OS? Yes. Tablets and laptops? Hell no. Surface is doing amazingly well. Panos Panay has it figured perfectly. They are simply the best you can buy when you need what they offer.

 

[Abazigal]

LOL, a quick flyer is NOT real work nor is it truly productive. If you think it is, you need a wake up call and soon and there is no reason for me to continue this discussion with you if this in fact your mindset. I mean I'm not going to bother really.

To me, there is no such thing as real work or “fake” work. Work is work, even if it is something as inconsequential as recording a replying to an email on a phone or returning someone’s call, and whatever you work best with is the device for you.

Sometimes, that is a laptop, sometimes it’s an iPad and sometimes it’s a phone, and I see no shame in acknowledging this.

Also, more people work "slogging away" at Office documents than you care to realize, especially the larger the business.

Let's face it, the iPad sucks at anything more than elementary tasks in business. Just admit it and move on.

I have never denied that there are tasks that the iPad is ill-suited for. I have used an iPad for my work as a teacher since I got my first iPad 3 in 2012, and I think I have a fairly intimate understanding of its strengths and limitations.

My point is what it always has been - that the iPad is subpar at certain tasks in a business environment does not make it useless for productivity in general, especially when this ultimately falls on the individual user.

Nor is dismissing the value of the iPad outright productive. There are so many people out there using the iPad for all manner of tasks. We should be learning from them what the iPad can be capable of, not sweeping it under the carpet for what?

A fear that any perceived success of the iPad will cause Apple to discontinue the Mac line altogether?

Microsoft has NOT failed mobile entirely. Phones and a Phone OS? Yes. Tablets and laptops? Hell no. Surface is doing amazingly well. Panos Panay has it figured perfectly. They are simply the best you can buy when you need what they offer.

The surface is a tablet form factor that is ultimately used as a laptop most of the time, for traditional laptop tasks.

I have both an iPad Pro and a HP elite tablet issued to me at work. The things I do on the elite tablet, I can’t do (or do as well) on my iPad, and I totally acknowledge that. Just as the things I do on my iPad, the experience is just not there on a windows tablet. They don’t even come close to replacing each other in my opinion.

And believe me, I do use my iPad for both work and leisure plenty.

 

[kazmac]

I just priced one of these with educational discount, spec update and accessories, it was moving into Surface Pro territory at that point. That's too bad.

 

[Oraichu]

I'm so glad I sold my surface pro. It seemed nice, on paper. But in practice it was extremely tedious to use, with little touch app support (compared to ipad pro), bad battery life (3hours?) and an OS that's not very touch optimized... nor very great with keyboard + mouse either. It's a hybrid that's not "best of both worlds", but rather "mediocre at both". I'd go for a Macbook pro + ipad pro any day (or just either, depending on need / use).

 

[spinedoc77]

with all due respect windows update issues are not FUD. in last two years..every damn time..windows update messed up my laptop. I had Infinite Update bluescreen error costed me 300 bucks. Even the latest April update messed up my blue tooth devices. (its one of the common complaint after april update). updates are the only gripe for me in Windows..definitely not FUD.
[doublepost=1531285455][/doublepost]
hold your thoughts... Surface Go has lot of restrictions on programs you can install.
[doublepost=1531285522][/doublepost]

i hope you tried kickstand before commenting this. for me,No other smart cover comes close to that. And, its integral part of tab itself, nonody burn your pockets again for a stand or cover.

I only say FUD because it's anecdotal, it's one person saying they had an issue. Just because my iPhone x and ipad have issues I cannot say everyone has issues with iOS. This entire windows is unstable, or has major issues with updates thing is just overhyped and overblown. As I stated previously all technology has issues, including Apple, Android, or anything else. Now a small portion of those issues may be serious, such as what you are experiencing, but no more than what someone on another paradigm might experience.

Just last week my wife's iPhone 7 crapped out, it refused to connect to the carrier. After going through Apple and Verizon tech support and a week of not being able to make or receive phone calls finally I came across an article that revealed these phones had mainboard issues and were being repaired out of warranty, supposedly it's fairly widespread for that model. That's a pretty huge issue there, but I'm not saying it's endemic to all hardware, although I'll bet it's more widespread than your issue.

[doublepost=1531309653][/doublepost]

The surface is a tablet form factor that is ultimately used as a laptop most of the time, for traditional laptop tasks.

I have both an iPad Pro and a HP elite tablet issued to me at work. The things I do on the elite tablet, I can’t do (or do as well) on my iPad, and I totally acknowledge that. Just as the things I do on my iPad, the experience is just not there on a windows tablet. They don’t even come close to replacing each other in my opinion.

And believe me, I do use my iPad for both work and leisure plenty.

See, this is what annoys me. It's just not true. I use my surface as a tablet most of the time, it functions VERY well as a tablet. If anything IMO it functions much better as a tablet than the ipad thanks to things like the kickstand. The surface is just as good of a tablet as the ipad, and no one has EVER explained to my satisfaction why that is not the case. Anything that can be done on an ipad can also be done on a surface.

Also hybrid use is important, and something often not given enough credit. There are things my surface tablet can do as a hybrid that an ipad or a laptop alone could not do. Just the way I flip around and convert my surface between functionalities is amazing and often it is functioning somewhere in between the 2 paradigms. That's why when I hear someone trying to categorize the surface as either a tablet or a laptop I know they truly don't understand its power, and/or have no real world experience with it themselves.

BTW I agree with you about the ipad being used for work. "Work" is defined by each business and individual, and if that "work" can be accomplished with an ipad then that is that business' or persons business. It doesn't matter how complex or simple it is, if you are making money or getting paid to do it, you are "working".

 

[sracer]

LOL, a quick flyer is NOT real work nor is it truly productive. If you think it is, you need a wake up call and soon and there is no reason for me to continue this discussion with you if this in fact your mindset. I mean I'm not going to bother really.

Can you point me to the commonly recognized definition of "real work"? In all of my years on this planet I have not run across it.

Also, more people work "slogging away" at Office documents than you care to realize, especially the larger the business.

Let's face it, the iPad sucks at anything more than elementary tasks in business. Just admit it and move on.

Interesting. What is this "business" you keep referring to? What does business do? What does it produce? How are iPads ill suited for those non-elementary tasks?

Microsoft has NOT failed mobile entirely. Phones and a Phone OS? Yes. Tablets and laptops? Hell no. Surface is doing amazingly well. Panos Panay has it figured perfectly. They are simply the best you can buy when you need what they offer.

The next time you see Panos Panay, please ask him where all of those custom "blades" are that he promised were coming for the Surface tablets. thanks.

 

[DNichter]

Hopeless for professional business class enterprise work.

That's what I'm talking about. Running full desktop class Office apps, REAL multitasking, Server integration, etc etc etc.

I'm not talking about making a flyer for your garage sale, here. I'm talking about serious productivity.

Not all work is operational work, which is what you’re definition of productivity is geared towards. I manage a team of 60 people from my iPad Pro and it has been a great experience. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but acting like your view is fact is pretty short sighted. Not everyone needs what you need. It doesn’t make the other persons needs and preferred device any less valid.

 

[jimmy_uk]

I had a little typo but I fixed
I hope you are not the kind of person who can't take a joke
unless you are a windows fan
we all know that the S stands for Store
Windows S is limited to the windows store apps
but I'm sure you already know that
do you also know that Microsoft stole the name and the idea from apple
but at least in Mac OS you can modify gatekeeper options
can you do the same in windoze S?
wonder who created their store first
if you read Mac Rumors front page, the App Store is 10 years old
how old is Microsoft store or how long has microsucks store been running


Microsoft stole just about every feature from Mac OS to make their crappy and buggy w10
but is really a failed attempt to create a cheap imitation
they can't even do that right


I respect your opinion I hope you respect mine
for me that S has many meanings but here are the most important ones
Scam, Spyware, Slow and of course Sucks

I don't have nothing to hide I just don't like Microsoft spying on me
I won't even waste my time running fixes to disable all windows tracking services, ads ,spyware etc

I know my English is not perfect but I'm sure someone smart like you will understand
how about that for "wisdom and insitfullnes"

how you like me now
Jimmy Boy
Regards

Not much after that rant.
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for me,comparing with iPad..i see 'only' one advantage "KickStand". for Ipad you dont have any thing like that.
[doublepost=1531268308][/doublepost]
why nonsense? every microsoft update comes up with new issues..there are some improvements, but again every update leaves some mess..

And not the mouse support?

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Hopeless for professional business class enterprise work.

That's what I'm talking about. Running full desktop class Office apps, REAL multitasking, Server integration, etc etc etc.

I'm not talking about making a flyer for your garage sale, here. I'm talking about serious productivity.

I guess IBM doesn't qualify as enterprise. I bet that is news to them. Even where I work, there are folks that do fine with their Macs. The people who don't like those people are the IT folks--who can't group policy them as easily.

 

[Abazigal]

See, this is what annoys me. It's just not true. I use my surface as a tablet most of the time, it functions VERY well as a tablet. If anything IMO it functions much better as a tablet than the ipad thanks to things like the kickstand. The surface is just as good of a tablet as the ipad, and no one has EVER explained to my satisfaction why that is not the case. Anything that can be done on an ipad can also be done on a surface.

The kickstand is easily replicated using any iPad case or a Smart Cover.

I guess my issue is the whole tablet user experience. It’s not so much of what each device can or cannot do, but how it does those tasks.

I can’t really explain it either. Like the iPad has a responsive touchscreen which when combined with native apps optimised for direct input, it all just works. Everything is just smooth and responsive and I am not bogged down by the idiosyncrasies of a legacy desktop operating system.

I guess I just prefer iOS more, limitations and all.

 

[BeatCrazy]

I'm strangely intrigued by this thing, as well. I'm 99% Mac here - MacBooks, iMac Pro, several iPads, etc. But once in a while I have to break out my 2-year-old Dell Inspiron 13-7000 to run a legacy Windows program (no real "work"). The Dell is not great at all, but I only paid $399 for it. And the display driver occasionally freaks out, causing me to reboot.

The $399 Surface Go model + $130 keyboard would do me just fine. I'd never run more than a browser + single app, at any given time. Best Buy is offering $50 GC and says they'll give me $95 for the Dell. After all that, for <$400 OTD, I can have a (slightly) slower laptop that I'll use 10x/year but be way more portable and nicer to use than the Dell.

Quoting myself here, but to follow up - one of the biggest appeals of the Go is USB-C. Since I already have a couple of MacBooks + MBP w/USB-C, I have a plethora of chargers/docks/dongles around the house. That Surface connector thingy really never needs to come out of the box.

 

[convergent]

Which while important, is not the be all and end all of what constitutes real work. I don’t understand why these self-styled productivity gurus feel like they get to lay claim on the term “real work”. Like who died and gave you all the authority to decide what “real work” is or isn’t.

Not everybody sits in an office all day slogging away at spreadsheets and word documents. And honestly, I fail to see how or why designing a quick flier isn’t productive. Work is work, and the device which is able to just get out of our way and let us get our jobs done is the one for us.

There are so many people out there using their iPads for tasks which constitute work for them. Work that they otherwise not have been able to do as seamlessly or as readily on a conventional PC device. I really don’t get why it’s so hard to give them due recognition, and acknowledge that different workflows entail differing form factors, and that PCs are ultimately just one of many different options available.

At the end of the day, it’s just more of the same from Microsoft, who has basically won the desktop but lost mobile. Microsoft knows this.

This product is still catering to the same group of users as before. The people interested in one are not going to be getting an iPad anyways, just as the people whose needs are met by an iPad are unlikely to be interested in said product.

You are basically looking at two Venn diagram circles which barely intersect each other. Said product will sooner cannibalise the sales of other windows devices than the iPad.

You are a teacher. As we've discussed before, while a very important occupation, its vastly different from most business workers who live in complex spreadsheets, powerpoints, and other business applications. If you are able to do all your work on an iPad, that's awesome. My wife has an iPad and an iPhone and never needs to use anything more. No one is saying that isn't real work. The reason this becomes a debate is anything posted on MR about alternatives gets met with its terrible, its great except for Windows, etc.. I realize this is an Apple forum, but would be great if people opened their minds that I can NOT do my work on an iPad. It is impossible. Apple then leaves me with the only option being to buy multiple devices to do what I can otherwise do on one. Anyone who is an information worker (and there are a lot of them in the world), and travels, is going to see great value stepping outside of the Apple world.

I think its hilarious that are saying Microsoft gives, "more of the same", being an Apple fan. Seriously? Microsoft is pushing a lot of new innovation out and Apple is the one that keeps milking the same things. How is this vastly different from Apple popping out different sizes of the iPad? The iPad Mini? Apple literally just popped out a recycled design of the iPad for low cost, and you bash Microsoft for producing a device that has a substantially different form factor at a much lower price?

The kickstand is easily replicated using any iPad case or a Smart Cover.

I guess my issue is the whole tablet user experience. It’s not so much of what each device can or cannot do, but how it does those tasks.

I can’t really explain it either. Like the iPad has a responsive touchscreen which when combined with native apps optimised for direct input, it all just works. Everything is just smooth and responsive and I am not bogged down by the idiosyncrasies of a legacy desktop operating system.

I guess I just prefer iOS more, limitations and all.

I'm guessing you have never used a Surface if you think you can replicate the kickstand with any sort of cover. Not even close. I didn't "get" the kickstand until I have one. Now I can't imagine having a tablet without one.

 

[spinedoc77]

The kickstand is easily replicated using any iPad case or a Smart Cover.

I guess my issue is the whole tablet user experience. It’s not so much of what each device can or cannot do, but how it does those tasks.

I can’t really explain it either. Like the iPad has a responsive touchscreen which when combined with native apps optimised for direct input, it all just works. Everything is just smooth and responsive and I am not bogged down by the idiosyncrasies of a legacy desktop operating system.

I guess I just prefer iOS more, limitations and all.

I disagree, those cases or covers are cheap, floppy and add a lot of weight and bulk to the device. They also don't have infinite degrees of adjustment, firm stops so the kickstand stays in place, etc. Sure technically they replace the kickstand, but it's really not the same experience in the least. I can say a piece of cardboard taped to the back replaces the kickstand, but that's not being totally accurate either.

As for the "whole tablet experience", I guess that's the part I don't understand. Of course this is highly subjective and every user is different. That means I fully respect your definition of "tablet" and what you consider "tablet use". But once again I still don't understand what it is specifically you (or anyone else who says the surface isn't a good tablet) consider superior in tablet use with the ipad that the surface cannot do.

The surface has a very responsive screen. I know the ipad pro has the higher refresh which seems ok, personally it all looks the same to me but on paper the specs are superior and I won't argue that point. I'm also not bogged down by anything in windows, nothing at all. But I can appreciate that iOS is more simple and has less complexities overall. I'll argue against myself in terms of this new surface, which has the complexity of confusing consumers on whether they need full windows or windows S, and what the difference is between apps and legacy programs. So I definitely agree on that end, for a non tech user who just wants zero headaches and is willing to sacrifice the windows ecosystem then iOS is a better paradigm. But that doesn't necessarily make for a better tablet, just a paradigm which better suits the user. In other words I wouldn't be surprised if there was a subset of users out there who would love to have iOS on their Macbooks, but if that was ever released I don't think it would be fair to say an iOS MacBook is the "best laptop". Although of course it's completely fair to say "it's the best laptop for my needs".

But yeah, it all comes down to preference. I didn't mean to sound like it's all or nothing, or my opinion is more valuable than yours. At the end of the day we all use and define our devices differently.

 

[Abazigal]

You are a teacher. As we've discussed before, while a very important occupation, its vastly different from most business workers who live in complex spreadsheets, powerpoints, and other business applications. If you are able to do all your work on an iPad, that's awesome. My wife has an iPad and an iPhone and never needs to use anything more. No one is saying that isn't real work. The reason this becomes a debate is anything posted on MR about alternatives gets met with its terrible, its great except for Windows, etc.. I realize this is an Apple forum, but would be great if people opened their minds that I can NOT do my work on an iPad. It is impossible. Apple then leaves me with the only option being to buy multiple devices to do what I can otherwise do on one. Anyone who is an information worker (and there are a lot of them in the world), and travels, is going to see great value stepping outside of the Apple world.

You still don’t get my point.

Many people here are all too quick to dismiss the iPad on the grounds that just because it is useless for them, it must therefore be useless for everyone else.

What I am trying to drive across is that what constitutes real work ultimately depends on the end user. The iPad forum has one massive thread on how people are using their iPads to great effect. Macstories is the poster boy of iPad productivity. Here are a few more threads.

https://medium.learningbyshipping.com/my-tablet-has-stickers-8f7ab9022ebd

https://medium.freecodecamp.org/giving-the-ipad-a-full-time-job-3ae2440e1810

The more I think about it, the more I don’t think it’s about this place being Macrumours. It’s about the majority of users here having very PC-centric workflows which don’t always lend themselves well to an iPad form factor.

I think its hilarious that are saying Microsoft gives, "more of the same", being an Apple fan. Seriously? Microsoft is pushing a lot of new innovation out and Apple is the one that keeps milking the same things. How is this vastly different from Apple popping out different sizes of the iPad? The iPad Mini? Apple literally just popped out a recycled design of the iPad for low cost, and you bash Microsoft for producing a device that has a substantially different form factor at a much lower price?

It seems more to me that anything Microsoft does is being graded on a curve compared to Apple.

Microsoft’s innovations haven’t exactly taken the world by storm despite the massive praise heaped on them. I remember the fanfare the surface studio received here when it was first announced. Turns out - it didn’t sell at all. Not to mention Microsoft hasn’t made their products available in that many countries.

So yeah, Apple is doomed because they aren't catering to a small niche of nerds that hardly makes any revenue.

At the end of the day, Microsoft’s roots are in desktop. That’s their biggest strength, and their greatest weakness. In that Microsoft is destined to not only succeed at anything to do with the desktop, but also to fail in any endeavour that has nothing to do with the desktop.

It is their blessing, it is their curse. This surface go product changes nothing. It’s still just another PC. With all the pros and cons of one.

Wait and watch. Hololens is destined to suffer a similar fate.

I'm guessing you have never used a Surface if you think you can replicate the kickstand with any sort of cover. Not even close. I didn't "get" the kickstand until I have one. Now I can't imagine having a tablet without one.

Earlier, I mentioned I was using a work-issued Windows 2-in-1. It comes with a kickstand. I see the practical aspect of it. I just don’t see all the hype over it. Especially since the two positions I use it in, my iPad Smart Cover replicates them just fine.

And considering that most iPads will be used with a case at any rate, a kickstand is kinda redundant when you think about it.

 

[spinedoc77]

You are a teacher. As we've discussed before, while a very important occupation, its vastly different from most business workers who live in complex spreadsheets, powerpoints, and other business applications. If you are able to do all your work on an iPad, that's awesome. My wife has an iPad and an iPhone and never needs to use anything more. No one is saying that isn't real work. The reason this becomes a debate is anything posted on MR about alternatives gets met with its terrible, its great except for Windows, etc.. I realize this is an Apple forum, but would be great if people opened their minds that I can NOT do my work on an iPad. It is impossible. Apple then leaves me with the only option being to buy multiple devices to do what I can otherwise do on one. Anyone who is an information worker (and there are a lot of them in the world), and travels, is going to see great value stepping outside of the Apple world.

I think its hilarious that are saying Microsoft gives, "more of the same", being an Apple fan. Seriously? Microsoft is pushing a lot of new innovation out and Apple is the one that keeps milking the same things. How is this vastly different from Apple popping out different sizes of the iPad? The iPad Mini? Apple literally just popped out a recycled design of the iPad for low cost, and you bash Microsoft for producing a device that has a substantially different form factor at a much lower price?



I'm guessing you have never used a Surface if you think you can replicate the kickstand with any sort of cover. Not even close. I didn't "get" the kickstand until I have one. Now I can't imagine having a tablet without one.

Yeah I get tired of this as well. I'll bet 90% of the complaints are from people who haven't used windows extensively in the last few years, in particular with a touchscreen, even more specifically with a current surface device. I can just see Windows 8 floating around in their head as they type out their "windows suxor" comment. Windows isn't perfect, and news flash iOS isn't perfect either. But the strides Microsoft has taken with windows, especially as a touch friendly OS, are amazing.

There has to be some compromise, especially when you have the ability to run legacy programs which are designed to be run in a desktop environment. But I'm amazed at how little compromise there is lately with the streamlining Microsoft has done. Stepping back a bit and ignoring legacy programs, I've said it before and will say it again, there is NOTHING the surface line up cannot do that the ipad does, in particular when we consider "dumb tablet" features such as consuming content.

But once again it comes down to preference. But as you say, I wish some were a bit more open minded. Nothing is perfect, and you have to give Microsoft huge props for some of the stuff they have released. Not only the surface tablets but the surface laptops, the surface studio is an amazing piece of kit, and so on. I see them pushing new boundaries every year, where I see Apple complacently pushing very few boundaries. This isn't a terrible thing as I really like my iPhone X, but at the same time it makes you wonder who will push the tech market, and that makes me sad.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Yeah I get tired of this as well. I'll bet 90% of the complaints are from people who haven't used windows extensively in the last few years, in particular with a touchscreen, even more specifically with a current surface device. I can just see Windows 8 floating around in their head as they type out their "windows suxor" comment. Windows isn't perfect, and news flash iOS isn't perfect either. But the strides Microsoft has taken with windows, especially as a touch friendly OS, are amazing.

There has to be some compromise, especially when you have the ability to run legacy programs which are designed to be run in a desktop environment. But I'm amazed at how little compromise there is lately with the streamlining Microsoft has done. Stepping back a bit and ignoring legacy programs, I've said it before and will say it again, there is NOTHING the surface line up cannot do that the ipad does, in particular when we consider "dumb tablet" features such as consuming content.

But once again it comes down to preference. But as you say, I wish some were a bit more open minded. Nothing is perfect, and you have to give Microsoft huge props for some of the stuff they have released. Not only the surface tablets but the surface laptops, the surface studio is an amazing piece of kit, and so on. I see them pushing new boundaries every year, where I see Apple complacently pushing very few boundaries. This isn't a terrible thing as I really like my iPhone X, but at the same time it makes you wonder who will push the tech market, and that makes me sad.

I could agree with this if I could actually get the hardware to work right in the tablet world. Every Surface Pro I had would hotbag regularly. Have other heat issues, hibernation and sleep/wake issues. If anything the SP2 was more stable than the SP3 or SP4. I need to get work done. So I get it done on an iPad Pro and a desktop. I can remote back to the desktop for the few issues I still have getting stuff done on an iPad.

 

[spinedoc77]

And considering that most iPads will be used with a case at any rate, a kickstand is kinda redundant when you think about it.

I still continue to HIGHLY disagree with this. I love my devices naked, laptops, tablets, smartphones, I never put anything more than possibly a skin or glass screen protector on these. My iPhone X is completely naked. The kickstand is far from redundant, especially if you don't want to add WEIGHT, THICKNESS, BULK and UGLINESS to your device. Plus, as I mentioned previously, the kickstand outperforms ANY case or cover on the market today, not only outperforms but completely trounces any other case/cover in functionality.
[doublepost=1531322603][/doublepost]

I could agree with this if I could actually get the hardware to work right in the tablet world. Every Surface Pro I had would hotbag regularly. Have other heat issues, hibernation and sleep/wake issues. If anything the SP2 was more stable than the SP3 or SP4. I need to get work done. So I get it done on an iPad Pro and a desktop. I can remote back to the desktop for the few issues I still have getting stuff done on an iPad.

Never had those issues personally, but I can't say they don't exist. Well I did have the hotbagging issue with my SP3 that was eventually fixed, but never on multiple SP4's and NSP's. I'm on a lot of surface forums and don't see these issues. About the only recurring issue I've seen is some light bleeding, which I haven't personally experienced. But it sounds like you have an open mind, had a bad experience with the surface line, are not trying to make your issues seem like every surface has them, and just use the setup that works best for yourself. I can respect that.

 

[sracer]

I could agree with this if I could actually get the hardware to work right in the tablet world. Every Surface Pro I had would hotbag regularly. Have other heat issues, hibernation and sleep/wake issues. If anything the SP2 was more stable than the SP3 or SP4. I need to get work done. So I get it done on an iPad Pro and a desktop. I can remote back to the desktop for the few issues I still have getting stuff done on an iPad.

It's a tale of two devices.

For those who have had trouble-free ownership of Surface Pros, no amount of anecdotal evidence to the contrary will change their opinion. (it shouldn't change their view of their first-hand experience, but it should influence their opinion)

The same holds true for those of us who have had troubled ownership experiences. I'm glad to hear that others have had great experiences with the Surface line of tablets, but it is my first-hand experiences that have shaped my decision to not buy another.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I still continue to HIGHLY disagree with this. I love my devices naked, laptops, tablets, smartphones, I never put anything more than possibly a skin or glass screen protector on these. My iPhone X is completely naked. The kickstand is far from redundant, especially if you don't want to add WEIGHT, THICKNESS, BULK and UGLINESS to your device. Plus, as I mentioned previously, the kickstand outperforms ANY case or cover on the market today, not only outperforms but completely trounces any other case/cover in functionality.
[doublepost=1531322603][/doublepost]

Never had those issues personally, but I can't say they don't exist. Well I did have the hotbagging issue with my SP3 that was eventually fixed, but never on multiple SP4's and NSP's. I'm on a lot of surface forums and don't see these issues. About the only recurring issue I've seen is some light bleeding, which I haven't personally experienced. But it sounds like you have an open mind, had a bad experience with the surface line, are not trying to make your issues seem like every surface has them, and just use the setup that works best for yourself. I can respect that.

I don't know. I am really glad that they worked for someone, but if you go to surfaceforums.net, and look at the latest posts, everything isn't smooth sailing for others as well. I would LOVE to have a real desktop and a great tablet experience and have it be in the MS world, we just aren't there yet. Like I said, Apple is really slooooooooow to release anything, and MS tries but quits before the spit and polish phase. Firing gobs of testers a few years ago didn't help.
[doublepost=1531322959][/doublepost]

It's a tale of two devices.

For those who have had trouble-free ownership of Surface Pros, no amount of anecdotal evidence to the contrary will change their opinion. (it shouldn't change their view of their first-hand experience, but it should influence their opinion)

The same holds true for those of us who have had troubled ownership experiences. I'm glad to hear that others have had great experiences with the Surface line of tablets, but it is my first-hand experiences that have shaped my decision to not buy another.

Perfectly stated. And it isn't like I haven't tried. I had a Gateway tablet pc, heck I even tried an EXO PC.

 

[ipponrg]

Many people here are all too quick to dismiss the iPad on the grounds that just because it is useless for them, it must therefore be useless for everyone else.

As the poster had mentioned previously, it works for some people with very specific use cases. Yours included.

The guy you mentioned in your Medium link spends time to set up automation workflows to get his development environment setup. The issue with this in real world use cases is that you will need to be able to task, video conf / screen share, code multiple projects, ... all at the same time. His development process completely falls apart in real business world cases when it comes to this. The iPad is abysmal at managing multiple processes at a given time, which is what a desktop OS solves.

Microsoft’s innovations haven’t exactly taken the world by storm despite the massive praise heaped on them.

The fact they are getting praise is enough for now to update its brand perception. Most people know where Apple stands in this at the moment under this regime. You're basing this solely on consumer products whereas Microsoft is also targeting a different sector along with their Azure/Cloud initiatives. I don't see Apple here involved with anything cloud service related for businesses or platform agnostic users. Ironically, I read that roughly 80% of Apple employees back in 2010 (50,000) were Apple store employees. I'd argue that although Apple is innovating in their own ways, they are trying to provide a different utility to the world than Microsoft.

So yeah, Apple is doomed because they aren't catering to a small niche of nerds that hardly makes any revenue.

Apple certainly isn't doomed by any means in the next few decades due to the enormous amount of cash they sit on. However, when discussed about which tech company to hypothetically fall first (Google vs Amazon vs Apple vs Microsoft)... Apple is usually listed as one of the first due to their complacency and putting (most of) their eggs in 1 basket.

At the end of the day, Microsoft’s roots are in desktop. That’s their biggest strength, and their greatest weakness. In that Microsoft is destined to not only succeed at anything to do with the desktop, but also to fail in any endeavour that has nothing to do with the desktop.

This shows how out of touch you are with anything outside of Apple.

Microsoft's roots were in desktop, but that is not their current biggest strength. Satya Nadella is changing their business to become much less reliant on their desktop and to provide more solid cloud services and product expansion.

 

[spinedoc77]

It's a tale of two devices.

For those who have had trouble-free ownership of Surface Pros, no amount of anecdotal evidence to the contrary will change their opinion. (it shouldn't change their view of their first-hand experience, but it should influence their opinion)

The same holds true for those of us who have had troubled ownership experiences. I'm glad to hear that others have had great experiences with the Surface line of tablets, but it is my first-hand experiences that have shaped my decision to not buy another.

Nothing wrong with that at all! If you don't have confidence in a product or the company behind the product, no one can blame you for not buying and using one.
[doublepost=1531323719][/doublepost]

As the poster had mentioned previously, it works for some people with very specific use cases. Yours included.

The guy you mentioned in your Medium link spends time to set up automation workflows to get his development environment setup. The issue with this in real world use cases is that you will need to be able to task, video conf / screen share, code multiple projects, ... all at the same time. His development process completely falls apart in real business world cases when it comes to this. The iPad is abysmal at managing multiple processes at a given time, which is what a desktop OS solves.



The fact they are getting praise is enough for now to update its brand perception. Most people know where Apple stands in this at the moment under this regime. You're basing this solely on consumer products whereas Microsoft is also targeting a different sector along with their Azure/Cloud initiatives. I don't see Apple here involved with anything cloud service related for businesses or platform agnostic users. Ironically, I read that roughly 80% of Apple employees back in 2010 (50,000) were Apple store employees. I'd argue that although Apple is innovating in their own ways, they are trying to provide a different utility to the world than Microsoft.



Apple certainly isn't doomed by any means in the next few decades due to the enormous amount of cash they sit on. However, when discussed about which tech company to hypothetically fall first (Google vs Amazon vs Apple vs Microsoft)... Apple is usually listed as one of the first due to their complacency and putting (most of) their eggs in 1 basket.



This shows how out of touch you are with anything outside of Apple.

Microsoft's roots were in desktop, but that is not their current biggest strength. Satya Nadella is changing their business to become much less reliant on their desktop and to provide more solid cloud services and product expansion.

Don't forget that Microsoft really doesn't care about hardware that much, they are making a profit with surface devices though, but nothing like Apple on their hardware. That's because at heart Microsoft is a services and cloud company, that's where they make their money. A big part of their strategy in making the surface line was to stimulate other companies to make better products. This way Microsoft has more platforms to put their services and cloud subs on. In a loose way they resemble Google a bit in that they aren't necessarily in the hardware business, but in the business of getting more hardware out there to put their stuff on. By stimulating the hardware market Microsoft makes more money because more opportunities are created for them to sell their services/cloud subs. So in a way you kind of have to take the windows market as a whole, tallying up all the windows hardware vendors in the world, and not just squint your eyes and look at windows hardware sales by themselves.
[doublepost=1531323870][/doublepost]

I don't know. I am really glad that they worked for someone, but if you go to surfaceforums.net, and look at the latest posts, everything isn't smooth sailing for others as well. I would LOVE to have a real desktop and a great tablet experience and have it be in the MS world, we just aren't there yet. Like I said, Apple is really slooooooooow to release anything, and MS tries but quits before the spit and polish phase. Firing gobs of testers a few years ago didn't help.
[doublepost=1531322959][/doublepost]
Perfectly stated. And it isn't like I haven't tried. I had a Gateway tablet pc, heck I even tried an EXO PC.

Yeah, at the end of the day there is some compromise to using a full OS on a tablet, or any computing device for that matter. If Apple had only released desktops and laptops with iOS, we would be having the same discussion about that hardware. I get it, if a simpler ipad is better for you, or anyone, then that's the device you/they should purchase and use. Nothing wrong with that, and that's the way a competitive market should work.