Microsoft to Respond to Apple's 'Get a Mac' Ads

[clevin]

Or, if you want another real quote from Bill Gates, there you have it:

"I want Mac on PC! I want Mac on PC!"

I guess you don't think apple said

"I want BSD, I want Unix to power my next generation of OS" right before they (granted, legally) copied OSS codes

or

"I want a browser, but I can't make myself, I want KHTML as core for my new browser" right before it copied over KHTML's codebase and forked it....

take about copy, apple isn't innocent.

 

[NovemberMike]

I guess you don't think apple said

"I want BSD, I want Unix to power my next generation of OS" right before they (granted, legally) copied OSS codes

or

"I want a browser, but I can't make myself, I want KHTML as core for my new browser" right before it copied over KHTML's codebase and forked it....

take about copy, apple isn't innocent.

Or when Apple copied the GUI from Xerox (I decided to check it out, and Xerox had a gui as early as 79, when Apple paid them a bunch of money so they could look at it).

 

[surferfromuk]

Or when Apple copied the GUI from Xerox (I decided to check it out, and Xerox had a gui as early as 79, when Apple paid them a bunch of money so they could look at it).

...and paid for the rights to the research unlike Microsoft who conned the Pepsi Cola CEO running Apple at the time into giving him Apple's desktop for nothing...

 

[clevin]

...and paid for the rights to the research unlike Microsoft who conned the Pepsi Cola CEO running Apple at the time into giving him Apple's desktop for nothing...

paying is fine, further research and improve are fine too (and should be encouraged and applauded). just don't be dishonest and turn around claim it invented it. Same goes to OSX, safari/webkit, multitouch technology, phone, etc.

 

[surferfromuk]

paying is fine, further research and improve are fine too (and should be encouraged and applauded). just don't be dishonest and turn around claim it invented it. Same goes to OSX, safari/webkit, multitouch technology, phone, etc.

That's Microsoft totally screwed then isn't it...except they go one further and try and destroy the evidence...

 

[milo]

Vista is still overall a much, much better OS than XP will ever be.

Oh really? So does it finally run audio apps as efficiently as XP? Did they fix that in one of the service packs?

What strikes me as odd is that Snow Leopard is to Leopard what Vista is to XP. It's not about adding a million new features, but rather improving what's there. It's the same thing with Vista. While it added a new UI and a few new (largely uninteresting) features, it greatly improved on the kernel and the existing features. (For me, the improvements to Wi-Fi in Vista were alone worth the price I paid for it.) It seems the Apple fanboys are applauding Snow Leopard, yet condemning Vista. Why is there a double standard?

Because for the most part, Vista DIDN'T greatly improve on XP and in many ways was worse and less compatible. At least not initially, it seems like the service packs have helped it catch up to XP to some degree.

They're all reference chips from the same manufacturers.. A Radeon in a Mac is the same as a Radeon in a generic PC. Different ROM, same parts. The northbridge/southbridge are both from Intel. Same parts you'd find in a generic PC of equal spec and they're all assembled/made in China. Heck, IIRC, ASUStek was building Macbooks.

Sure, the hardware is virtually the same. I'm glad about that, although the switch from PPC has had its pains.

People generally buy macs for the OS and software.

So what you're saying is that some people did downgrade to Tiger. I also can't imagine that there are still any deal breaker bugs that are keeping people on XP.

Well, then it looks like you need to improve your imagining.

Is there ANY question that the number of people who downgraded to XP was orders of magnitude bigger than the number of people who downgraded to tiger? Leopard has only been out about 8 months and apple was able to stop selling machines with the old OS with no outcry. On the windows side, after a year and a half they had to extend XP sales out to the two year mark due to demand.

 

[rhpenguin]

Right. I'm wondering if you think that that's legal? Or that it's illegal, but you feel it's okay on moral grounds? Or that it's illegal and you don't care?

Well, it's technically breaking the EULA because I'm not running it on "Apple branded hardware", but there's an Apple sticker on the side of my case to ease my mind that I'm doing anything wrong

I paid for the OS and I figure I can do whatever I damn well please with it. Including but not limited to, building my own OS install disk based on the original disk that I purchased, running the original over with my car, playing frisbee with it, or giving it to my cat as a chew toy.

Heck, I even run official Apple updates direct from Software Update.

 

[AidenShaw]

...a statement that, in fact, summarized very well what Allchin said.

Note that I was objecting to putting quotation marks around a summary.

The quotation marks changed it from a paraphased summary to a deceitful lie.

 

[clevin]

That's Microsoft totally screwed then isn't it...except they go one further and try and destroy the evidence...

I would rather discuss something with substance rather than empty accusations.

Vista DIDN'T greatly improve on XP and in many ways was worse and less compatible..

in what ways was worse and less compatible? some examples please.

Is there ANY question that the number of people who downgraded to XP was orders of magnitude bigger than the number of people who downgraded to tiger? Leopard has only been out about 8 months and apple was able to stop selling machines with the old OS with no outcry. On the windows side, after a year and a half they had to extend XP sales out to the two year mark due to demand.

some data please.

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that mac users are a much smaller crowd and new mac users has absolutely no control over what version of OS they get? And you think thats same situation on windows side?

 

[milo]

Now after SP 1 Vista is quite good but the bad perception is still out there and being constantly spread by the uninformed.

So does Vista beat XP on benchmarks after the service pack? In the numbers I have seen, it looks like it still lags in a number of areas.

Do you not realize? you might think, rightfully, that your personal and professional needs have been met by OSX. The problem is, there are 1 billions of people out there who might be using this or that softwares or hardwares that just don't fit OSX.

That's true of any OS, none of them can run every app.

A PC can run linux and windows apps.

A mac can run both of those plus OSX apps.

There will always be people who need one particular app that's only available on one particular OS. But most people can do everything they need to do on any of the major operating systems, if a given app isn't available, often a comparable one is. And on the mac, if you absolutely need to, you can run the other operating systems.

 

[clevin]

That's true of any OS, none of them can run every app.

A PC can run linux and windows apps.

A mac can run both of those plus OSX apps.

hehe, how about windows can run most apps? you can't on one side compare OSes, on the other hand trying to escape the very topic of this thread.

let I said, microsoft will not compare pc and mac, it will only compare windows and OSX. and thats quite fair since they don't make computers.

 

[NovemberMike]

So does Vista beat XP on benchmarks after the service pack? In the numbers I have seen, it looks like it still lags in a number of areas.

"In many ways" and "in a number of areas" are not useful. Give us useful examples.

For example, this article says that Vista is roughly the same or better at games.

That's true of any OS, none of them can run every app.

A PC can run linux and windows apps.

A mac can run both of those plus OSX apps.

There will always be people who need one particular app that's only available on one particular OS. But most people can do everything they need to do on any of the major operating systems, if a given app isn't available, often a comparable one is. And on the mac, if you absolutely need to, you can run the other operating systems.

The problem is that if you are running windows you are running windows, and as long as you legally bought the copy it is exactly the same to MS as somebody who uses it every day.

 

[milo]

in what ways was worse and less compatible? some examples please.

Sure. Audio apps got much worse performance under Vista than XP. Other general purpose benchmarks as well.

It's possible things were improved with the service pack, but I haven't been able to find any showing that. If you come across some, I'd love to see them.

some data please.

You mean you missed all the news stories about major companies keeping all their machines on XP? And about MS repeatedly extending sales of XP disks and machines with XP installed because customers demanded it? While I'm sure there are mac users who haven't upgraded, or upgraded then downgraded, there hasn't been similar demand for them to keep selling 10.4 or machines with it installed.

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that mac users are a much smaller crowd and new mac users has absolutely no control over what version of OS they get? And you think thats same situation on windows side?

Not at all, I'm taking into account the difference in size of user base. And apple doesn't keep selling old versions of the OS because demand for it is minimal. You don't think MS would stop selling XP if customers would accept that?

hehe, how about windows can run most apps?

Sure, windows has more quantity, but that has never mattered to me - raw numbers of apps are meaningless as long as you can run the apps you need.

"In many ways" and "in a number of areas" are not useful. Give us useful examples.

See above - performance on audio apps. It's possible SP1 fixed this, but I haven't been able to find any confirmation of that.

 

[DMann]

Note that I was objecting to putting quotation marks around a summary.

The quotation marks changed it from a paraphased summary to a deceitful lie.

Now, now, deceitful lie? I'll tell you what a deceitful lie is - that entire apology and pathetically manic sales pitch Allchin was forced to write, so that he could save face after his true, genuine, and heartfelt feelings were exposed in his first e-mail. The quotations, in question, which were stated at different times, lead me to separate them with a hyphen. Apparently, this upset you. In the future, I will be sure to employ a more orthodox separation with three dots, instead.

Sure. Audio apps got much worse performance under Vista than XP. Other general purpose benchmarks as well.

It's possible things were improved with the service pack, but I haven't been able to find any showing that. If you come across some, I'd love to see them.

I'll vouch for that, no improvement at all for audio apps after SP1.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

Right. I'm wondering if you think that that's legal? Or that it's illegal, but you feel it's okay on moral grounds? Or that it's illegal and you don't care?

Legal/illegal gets tricky when you're talking about breaking an EULA. The short answer is that it's definitely legal, in the sense that there's absolutely no chance of him getting arrested for doing it.

First of all, breaking a contract (what he's doing) is not a criminal offense, it's a civil offense. In any case, the most Apple can realistically do is refuse to provide him with updates/warranty services.

Additionally, there's a chance that the specific provision of the EULA that he's breaking isn't even legally valid. Microsoft got in anti-trust trouble for less restrictive practices than that, and if OS X attains a much higher market share, I wouldn't be surprised to see the "only use on Apple hardware" provision challenged.

 

[NovemberMike]

Legal/illegal gets tricky when you're talking about breaking an EULA. The short answer is that it's definitely legal, in the sense that there's absolutely no chance of him getting arrested for doing it.

First of all, breaking a contract (what he's doing) is not a criminal offense, it's a civil offense. In any case, the most Apple can realistically do is refuse to provide him with updates/warranty services.

Additionally, there's a chance that the specific provision of the EULA that he's breaking isn't even legally valid. Microsoft got in anti-trust trouble for less restrictive practices than that, and if OS X attains a much higher market share, I wouldn't be surprised to see the "only use on Apple hardware" provision challenged.

There is a reason Apple isn't tried to do anything to the Hackintosh groups.

 

[AidenShaw]

The quotations, in question, which were stated at different times, lead me to separate them with a hyphen.

The part before the hyphen ("Vista is not going to work") wasn't a quote. Allchin didn't use the word "Vista" in the sentence. Note how an honest writer signifies that he's made a change to a quote for brevity or clarity:

Developer: Windows Vista Is Not Ready
Allchin has shown public concern about Vista's development ... of last year, Allchin had to break the news to Bill Gates that "[Vista] is not going to work. ...
archive.devnewz.com/2006/0802.html - Cached​

A couple of square brackets...difference between honesty and deceit.


The part after the hyphen ("we should be doing it like OS X") isn't a quotation as you claim, it is pure invention.

Allchin didn't say those words, and he wasn't even talking about the OS in the quote that you gave. He was talking about Apple's design philosophy:

("...my point is about the philosophy that Apple uses. They think scenario. They think simple. They think fast." - http://www.microsoft-watch.com/cont...c_email_exposed.html?kc=MWRSS02129TX1K0000535)​

Note one dictionary's definition:

quotation noun

a person's exact words, as repeated by someone else

Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary. K Dictionaries Ltd. 09 Jul. 2008.​

Remember the "exact words" part before adding the '"' marks .

 

[inkswamp]

Or when Apple copied the GUI from Xerox (I decided to check it out, and Xerox had a gui as early as 79, when Apple paid them a bunch of money so they could look at it).

I love it when people who just joined MR make these kinds of troll-like comments and think they're being taken seriously.

Five minutes research on Google would show you that Apple obtained permission and compensated Xerox for the use of their GUI concept and they hired away a lot of the people working at PARC. Additionally, a lot of things that made their way into the first version of the Mac OS (and therefore became standard parts of the modern GUI) were developed by Apple, building on the work done at Xerox. PARC's GUI didn't include drop-down menus, the trash can, the desktop metaphor, drag-and-drop and a few other interface concepts. Apple added quite a lot to Xerox's ideas. Microsoft didn't add much at all when they took it to create Windows.

I'm no Apple defender, but I do think it's important to be accurate about these things. Look it up next time (assuming you care.)

 

[ryhnio]

bring it on donkey kong!

 

[DMann]

Alright, let us quote you then:

Can you please cite where and when Allchin made that statement?

I find many references to the first half of the sentence, but no mention at all of any statement by Allchin about building Windows like OSX.

There you have it. You did find many references to the first half of the statement.

Was this a downright deceitful lie? Because later you claim:

The part before the hyphen ("Vista is not going to work") wasn't a quote.

You later state:

You have paraphrased two different statements made at two different times by Allchin, combined them into one sentence, and put quotes around it. That is dishonest and deceitful.

And now, you further contradict yourself by claiming he said none of those things.

The most ridiculous aspect of this rant is that the entire dialogue in question was simply a scenario, not a quote at all:

"It was a good run," says Bill. "You can fool people for only so long, or up until something better comes along," and, Jim Allchin said it best, "Vista is not going to work - we should be doing it like OS X."

"It was a good run," says Bill............ Curiously, you didn't seem to find a problem with that quote.

 

[elppa]

Additionally, a lot of things that made their way into the first version of the Mac OS (and therefore became standard parts of the modern GUI) were developed by Apple, building on the work done at Xerox. PARC's GUI didn't include drop-down menus, the trash can, the desktop metaphor, drag-and-drop and a few other interface concepts. Apple added quite a lot to Xerox's ideas. Microsoft didn't add much at all when they took it to create Windows.

I've pointted out this in the past and been accused of being a fan boy, as these are just details which don't really matter. Good luck, but I've given up on trying to change the minds of the Apple ripped of Xerox brigade!

 

[AidenShaw]

There you have it. You did find many references to the first half of the statement.

...You later state:

Originally Posted by AidenShaw
You have paraphrased two different statements made at two different times by Allchin, combined them into one sentence, and put quotes around it. That is dishonest and deceitful.

And now, you further contradict yourself by claiming he said none of those things.

Do you simply not understand the difference between a direct quote and a paraphrase or summary?

Allchin did not say the first half of the line - he used a pronoun which you replaced with the noun it was referring to, but you failed to indicate that you'd modified the quote. (And, if he'd actually used a noun it would have been "Longhorn", not "Vista".)

Allchin never said anything like the second half of the line - you've summarized a several paragraph argument into six words or so, and put quotation marks around it.

The most ridiculous aspect of this rant is that the entire dialogue in question was simply a scenario, not a quote at all:

No, the most ridiculous aspect is your defense of the quote in spite of that, and in spite of the fact that the "quote" is not the "exact words" of Allchin.

 

[NovemberMike]

I'm no Apple defender, but I do think it's important to be accurate about these things. Look it up next time (assuming you care.)

Er, I just noticed that the thing I was referring to is listed as "Citation Needed" on Wikipedia. Not to say it isn't true, but I probably shouldn't have used it. In any case, the basic idea is that Apple got a basic framework for how a GUI should work (especially the windowed stuff), much like Microsoft got QDOS as a framework for their OS, and just like Apple took the core of OSX from BSD. It isn't a troll against apple, I am just saying that things like this are common (enough were pointed out against MS that I didn't think I needed to comment on them).

Jobs and several other Apple employees including Jef Raskin visited Xerox PARC in December 1979 to see the Alto computer. Xerox granted Apple engineers three days of access to the PARC facilities in return for selling them US$1 million in pre-IPO Apple stock (approximately US$18 million net).

 

[DMann]

Do you simply not understand the difference between a direct quote and a paraphrase or summary?

Do you not understand the difference between an entertaining scenario, which happens to be analogous to a Saturday Night Live skit, (fiction based on aspects of reality) and pure journalism?

"It was a good run," says Bill. "You can fool people for only so long, or up until something better comes along," and, Jim Allchin said it best, "Vista is not going to work - we should be doing it like OS X." ©2008 Dmann, all rights reserved

This was my own scenario, and, most ironically, it was you, who has isolated a small fragment of my scenario, quite out of context, for your own purposes of literary scrutiny, which is in and of itself, deceitful and dishonest! SHAME!!!

 

[t0mat0]

Any chance of chilling a bit? we got to the sources in the end...