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Originally posted by Rower_CPU


How about standards support? Netscape 6, now that it's more stable and less bulky, is actually a better browser than IE. Problem is that the damage has been done.

Everything in Windows revolves around the webpage metaphor *because* MS built IE into the OS. It's kind of a chicken or egg thing. Speaking of chickens...'Lemon?
As a web developer by trade I can tell you that IE is definitely the main target to code a site for. Netscape support is still what I'd consider "required"...but in a year? Netscape 6.x makes it a bit better---but there's still effort involved in coding for a browser that has < 20% market share.

Realities.


blakespot
 
Re: Re: Re: Thick on the irony?

Originally posted by ewinemiller


Very good point, for example if I was the CEO of company that provides antivirus software I'd be nervous right now. It's just the kind of tool that in the past has been added to the base OS. Remember Norton/Symantec used to provide a "must have" disk defragmenter for PCs, how popular is that product now? Current virus checkers are now priced in that service model kind of pricing that MS wants to move to. I think that it would a natural that MS would in the future would add virus checking technology to the core OS. The smart CEO would be in discussion right now to provide that engine.
As a person responsible for the webservers of a large, high profile organization, _I_ would be pretty nervous if I were running MS's IIS. We made certain that our new web platform, being setup now, was Unix through and through---we've gone from Linux on Cobalt Raq's to Solaris on Sun machines w/ Apache as the webserver (ColfFusion scripting language).

MS is no friend to anyone responsible for servers.



blakespot
 
Originally posted by blakespot

As a web developer by trade I can tell you that IE is definitely the main target to code a site for. Netscape support is still what I'd consider "required"...but in a year? Netscape 6.x makes it a bit better---but there's still effort involved in coding for a browser that has < 20% market share.

Realities.


blakespot

Same here...I'm torn between wanting Netscape to die so that I don't have to check it for my website's compat, but then I hate the idea of IE being the only browser out there.

Same with Mac OS. If everyone gives up on it since it has < 10% market share...where does that leave us?
 
Re: Re: Thick on the irony?

Originally posted by ewinemiller


But, it's alright for Apple to include iMovie, iTunes, iDVD? Just like very few people install a 3rd party browser or media player for Windows, you can probably count on your hand the number of folks who get a 3rd party tool to rip and burn CDs on a Mac. How many shareware CD rippers saw thier business dry up when iTunes was first released? Yes MS bundles IE and media player, but nothing there keeps me from adding a 3rd party tools. I have Netscape and Real installed on my XP machines, no problem. It's no different than Apple packing in thier digital hub stuff. It's great value added to the OS.

Adding features and functionality is a natural evolution of the operating system. Who would buy a modern day OS that didn't include a browser, it's insane. I certainly don't want to go back to the days when I had to buy a seperate TCP/IP stack, a browser, a defragmenter, disk compression, etc. I really appreciate that out of the box there are great tools to do what I want on both the Mac and PC, and on both platforms I always have the choice to install something 3rd party if the pack-ins don't meet my need.

What really bothers me about M$' tactics is that they are making a system that WILL NOT OPERATE without some of the apps or they make it a real PITA to remove some of them.

A hypothetical situation:
Imagine if the only reason you couldn't run Photoshop or Notepad was because you had disabled IE in your Windows configuration. It's just ridiculous. What does a web browser add in terms of raw functionality to a program like Photoshop? Nothing, yet I'd be stuck with the code bloat from IE eating up valuable system resources.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Thick on the irony?

Originally posted by ewinemiller

And while I certainly agree that MS does quite frequently do the embrace and extend philosophy, I don't remember that being part of the original rant I was responding to and from what I see in the headlines, does not seem to be an issue in the various monopoly cases. Once again that is simply about choice, as a developer I have a choice. I can target IE and get a richer user experience and deliver my product earlier because of some of the cool things that IE added first or only, such as iframes, ActiveX, etc. or I can increase my development time and target multiple browsers. Some folks may consider what they do as dirty pool, but as a developer I see it from a slightly different light. I've seen it several times, each time an alternative platform comes along MS figures out a way to make it easier for the application developer to target MS. It happened with OS/2 vs. NT, Borland's C++ vs. Visual C++, and Netscape vs. IE. In each case it was easier/cheaper to develop with the MS alternative. If you capture the mind of the developer, you get the applications, and the customers go to the applications. MS uses embrace and extend to make my life easier and I think that is just being a smart competitor.

Ah, but this is where the law actually comes in. M$ is using their monopoly in desktop oerating systems to give them an advantage in other markets and create an insurmountable barrier to entry by other players. Because IE is bolted into the operating system, there is very little incentive for ambitious developers to try and create a new and truly innovative browser. No one is going to invest in them because IE is so ubiquitous and they become an investment risk.

IE didn't win the browser war because of superior technology. They won because they had the ultimate means of distributing the product; the operating system itself. Netscape had to fight tooth and nail to get people to purchase CD's or spend the time downloading Navigator after that. IE was "good enough" for people. It was free and it was already installed. Essentially, M$ used their monopoly to make using Navigator a huge pain in the butt. And in doing that, cut off what was a viable source of revenue for Netscape.

M$ plays dirty pool plain and simple.

Bust 'em up I say. Create conditions where they actually have to compete with others on the quality of their product rather than the sheer amount of marketing money they spend.
 
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon


o i didnt create it. i downloaded it from a animated gif archive. i opened it with image ready but cant seem to save (save as or export) to .gif format. any ideas? do i save as .html with images and just use the image file created since that should be a .gif?

[edit ahhhh! the avatar's all on crack now or something... now this is why i wasnt going to do the whole avatar thing, its just craziness!]

Well, you'll want to set the Optimization settings to GIF, diffusion dither, check transparency, select a matte color, basically set all the color settings. Then it's a simple command+option+s
Unless you have enabled slices, you should just be able to save the image back out as an animated gif.
Save As won't help you out unless you want to save the file out as a .psd with a new name.
 
hehe, bill used to have an email address "askbill@microsoft.com" - just go to google and type in "site:microsoft.com askbill" to check if you want... i tried it but unfortunantly:

From: postmaster@microsoft.com
Date: Sat Mar 30, 2002 12:08:06 PM Australia/Melbourne
To: j763@mac.com
Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed.

askbill@microsoft.com



Reporting-MTA: dns;inet-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com
Received-From-MTA: dns;smtpout.mac.com
Arrival-Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:08:06 -0800

Final-Recipient: rfc822;askbill@microsoft.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1

From: "Jack K." <j763@mac.com>
Date: Sat Mar 30, 2002 12:07:39 PM Australia/Melbourne
To: askbill@microsoft.com
Subject:


Dear Bill,

According to C|Net,

"Microsoft and Unisys are launching a multimillion dollar ad campaign to undermine Unix.

The campaign, called "We have the way out," describes Unix as an expensive trap. "No wonder Unix makes you feel boxed in. It ties you to an inflexible system. It requires you to pay for expensive experts. It makes you struggle daily with a server environment that's more complex than ever," one ad reads. "


Why if that is the case does MSN Hotmail still run on Unix?

Thankyou.


oh well...
:mad:
 
Originally posted by kirknord


Well, you'll want to set the Optimization settings to GIF, diffusion dither, check transparency, select a matte color, basically set all the color settings. Then it's a simple command+option+s
Unless you have enabled slices, you should just be able to save the image back out as an animated gif.
Save As won't help you out unless you want to save the file out as a .psd with a new name.

I've found that dithering is often unnecesary and adds noise to the image...the rest is right on though..
 
anti-Unix campaign good for Apple?

M$ is evidently trying to position itself in that sweet spot where an enterprise can enjoy tremendous flexibility, scalability, reliability, and availability without having to employ many high-paid IT gurus.

The sweet spot is tough to nail; I believe. Flexibility (and scalability) tend to be more complex than a rigid, constrained system that requires less in the way of high-paid IT gurus. Obviously, there's a trade-off that software and hardware makers are looking to overcome whereby an enterprise gets all of the flexibility and capability without the incredible complexity that requires an army of IT gurus.

So, M$ is attacking the nix's because, right or wrong, they are PERCEIVED to be very complex. So, M$ and Unisys (why Unisys?) are looking to exploit this perception and other negative ones.

At the same time, M$ is trying to overcome its poor reputation for security and reliability/availability by that old tried and true business tactic, if you can't make your widget better right away or ever, spend millions of dollars on an advertising campaign that asserts that 'quality is job one'. Bill Gates recently asserted that 'security' is M$'s number one priority.

It worked for Chrysler in a big way!!! Granted, Chrysler's quality assurance did improve significantly but it took considerable time. So, the advertising with lee Iaococa (SP?) bought a more positive perception amongst auto consumers well before quality actually improved. (I am not asserting the Chrysler products are top of the line quality cars, BTW.)

Well, Apple has a reputation for making flexible, capable, powerful things simple and low-cost to use. Unix has a reputation for reliability, availability, scalability, and security. OS X is Apple simplicity on Unix. The 'power of Unix and the ease of use' of Apple.

This represents a tremendous opportunity for Apple, if Apple has the resources to make OS X Server and the PowerMac Server line more enterprise-ready.

For all of M$'s many flaws, when it comes to marketing, M$ does nothing half-assed. M$ can make a significant impact on market perception. And, Apple may be able to ride the wave while M$ ultimately wipes out.

Point in fact, however, as I understand Apple's priorities, aside from the consumer, education, and graphics segments, it is not targeting enterprise servers per say, rather it is targeting workstations in the enterprise. So, this may be an opportunity that Apple lacks the resources to exploit. Maybe Apple could accomplish the same with some strategic partnerships with major Unix server application vendors?

E
 
unix inflexible/

Why is everyone saying that unix is inflexible? Unix has to be one of the most sturdy, flexible systems out there! If you don't like how you standard build of whatever flavor you have works, you change some of the source and recompile a version better suited to yourself. How much more flexible can you get! Unix is completely flexible for those that know how it works. For newbies and such, it looks like an incomprehensible nightmare throwing line after line of undecipherable code onto their screen.

But if you have ever used GNOME you know that a unix system can be very user friendly as well. GNOME is a window manager/file system/collection of programs that work together to turn a unix command line into a desktop navigateable, completely graphic, easy to use (and damn powerful) interfaced, unix machine. Experts or frequents might feel hindered by Gnome's little quirks but for most its perfect.

So for all of those who say that Unix isn't flexible, you might want to rephrase that into "Unix is completely flexible for people that know how to use it" or "Unix can be inflexible, but it doesn't have to be if you know how to use it". If you are still skeptical of what i'm saying and are running os x, download a little app called Fink from source forge and tell it to compile xfree86 and GNOME. Once you play around with those guys you can get a fairly good idea about just how flexible Unix really is.
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


I've found that dithering is often unnecesary and adds noise to the image...the rest is right on though..

Actually, since it was a GIF animation that was downloaded from somewhere, I've often found that when you're saving a GIF back out from another GIF, dithering helps. From a straight psd file, yes, no dither is best.
 
Originally posted by kirknord


Actually, since it was a GIF animation that was downloaded from somewhere, I've often found that when you're saving a GIF back out from another GIF, dithering helps. From a straight psd file, yes, no dither is best.

:) thanks for all the suggestions but ive given up on the whole avatar thing for awhile. i tried using gif fun, gif builder, and image ready. no matter what i tried it always looked fine until i uploaded it. gif builder garbles some of the images, and gif fun is just a piece of junk.

first pixel, white as transparent, dithering and mattes, nothing seems to help and frankly i dont know what the hell im doing. so unless anyone knows exactly how to set the settings in image ready im sticking with no avatar for awhile longer
 
Originally posted by blakespot

It's all just a matter of opinion. I think most would agree that MS's "opinion" here is wrong, but it's not lawsuit material.


blakespot

That was really a tongue-in-cheek statement... I know that's nothing to get sued over. ;) But in the sue-happy state of CA, EVERYTHING GOES! :p
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


I've found that dithering is often unnecesary and adds noise to the image...the rest is right on though..

You're right. Dithering is pretty unnecessary in a GIF unless you're trying to show the entire color spectrum using 32 colors. (Not really, but you guys know what I mean.) Either that or if there's anyone still out there running 256 colors (God I hope not!)

When you guys make your avatars, make the background color between the light and dark greys in this forum. Then, when you choose your transparency in Save To Web, make that middle grey the transparency color. The difference should be so minimal that you won't hardly be able to tell.

And if you guys are already doing that and it's not working... well... I'll just have to wait until I get mine. :D
 
If this MS campaign does the stuff...

...it will slow down the evolution of just about everything on the planet for at least a decade...
 
Poor M$, they don't know what to do

This tactic will not work no matter what amount of money they put into it. Any IT person worth his weight knows that no OS on the planet is better than UNIX. Lots of people have different flavours but at the end of the day its still unix.
And I'm sure Winblows has some unix like stuff in it.
M$ a** is starting to twitch and they are grabbing at straws.
Unisys on the other hand, what the heck is up with them every body will loose confidence in them, They are dead.

Later.:D
 
i like how people come here and say that microsoft is evil, even though apple is just as evil. if you don't think so, i hope you someday wake up.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thick on the irony?

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


The standards I was referring to were CSS (which nobody really supports completely, but Netscape 6 is way ahead of IE 6).

too bad netscape barely supports html :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Jookbox
i like how people come here and say that microsoft is evil, even though apple is just as evil. if you don't think so, i hope you someday wake up.

We all know Apple has issues, half the posts to these threads are proof. Don't drop and run, back it up.

Now go away, or I will taunt you another time (in outrageous french accent)
 
Re: anti-Unix campaign good for Apple?

Originally posted by eirik
[...] if you can't make your widget better right away or ever, spend millions of dollars on an advertising campaign that asserts that 'quality is job one'. Bill Gates recently asserted that 'security' is M$'s number one priority.

It worked for Chrysler in a big way!!!

"Quality is Job One" was Ford, but good points otherwise. Microsoft is trying to sell people on a shortcut that doesn't exist. This is no different from an ad campaign that tells you you can eat anything you want and lose weight while you sleep.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thick on the irony?

Originally posted by Jookbox


too bad netscape barely supports html :rolleyes:


It's not so much that netscape doesn't support html, it does support the standard. The problem is that M$ has added in support for "propriatory " tags. Do a webpage using word and compare the same thing with something done in dreamweaver and the M$ word html file will most likely be bigger because of all the extra tags that they throw in, tags that are only usable in exploder...
 
Just wanted to add my $0.02 about FLEXIBILITY:

Unix systems are found on systems that range from embedded electronic appliances to room-sized mainframes. They can be tuned to perform specific tasks, especially network tasks, such as bridges, routers, firewalls, proxies, webservers, file or name servers, domain servers, etc...

I'd like to see a Windows OS run on a Disk-less computer :D
Or in a micro-controller chip, such as a 68HC11 or AVR.
Or on multiple Virtual Machines on an IBM mainframe...

Can i strip all the unnecessary "features" in Windows so it fits on a 1.44 MB floppy disk like half a dozen Linux distributions do ? Nope.

MS talking about flexibility is like General Motors pretending their middle-range car can be used as a bicycle or an high-end sports car indifferently.
 
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