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IMO, the Wii is very much like an Apple product in that it's so freaking easy to understand and intuitive to use, people who wouldn't normally consider getting a game console can't wait to get a Wii.


And the reason that Steve Jobs said that he doesn't initially want third-party apps on the iPhone was from the fatal flaw of Windows Mobile devices, where a wonky 3rd party application can easily lock-up the device.

Out of curiosity, which Windows Mobile phone devices do you have experience with? Anything with WM 2005?

An Apple Game Console would make sense once AppleTV is in many homes as I suspect as many others do, that Leopard has more HD TV connectivity than Apple are letting on. So a easy to use OS X based console with all Apple's skills at making stuff cool could enter a crowded market and do well.

To those that say Apple don't know that market I say iPhone ;)
 
You guys kept talking about the technicality point of view. What about business?

In my opinion, this move is very dirty one, yet very clever. It might turn around everything and also may lead to Apple being forced to reduce their price; which could be a loss.

Microsoft knows for sure that they wont be able to produce a smartphone that can match iPhone, but why are they doing it? Only god knows why and of course them.

For me I will always hope that Microsoft does not stop competing with Apple, even if it means to imitate them. This is because its gonna make our lives easier, we consumers.

VISTA had been delayed for a reason, maybe. I always interpret the delay of VISTA as: when it was due to be launched a few years ago, VISTA was ready. However, it was not very compatitive in comparison to Apple OS and hence they were forced to delay it. They could not figure any way out for a couple of years so they thought why not imitate the Mac OS X? They're only good at this.

Microsoft is a lousy one. Their best theory is; throw everything on the wall and see what sticks. It works with Spaghetti too.
 
err, this would be a pretty serious thread to iphone (and thus the entire ipod brand)
I'll assume you meant 'threat'. :D

The Zune is a decent player and has attracted good reviews and interest from PC tech heads. It is also only their first attempt, MS showed with the xbox that they are willing to throw money at a market to establish themselves in the long term. They have also showed that they can develop hardware in a very short space of time regardless of cost.
The Zune is a decent player that has attracted *mixed* reviews, and *minimal* interest from PC tech heads. Remember, this is the DAP that was out-sold by a record player less than a month after it was launched.
No argument with the 'MS will throw money at a problem' point, it's what they're best at. Unfortunately, they throw money at a problem, and consistently end up with mediocre solutions. It's just the way they are.
Where have they showed they can develop hardware in a very short space of time (given that cost isn't really a factor for MS)? The XBox? Essentially a PC. The 360? Not developped in 'a short space of time'. The Zune? A different face-plate on a pre-existing Toshiba MP3 player that didn't sell well the first time around.

The iPhone looks like an amazing piece of kit, but it has deal breaking flaws for many people:

No 3G (yet)
Only 4-8 GB storage
VERY expensive
Locked to one network
For the most part, the *US* doesn't have 3G yet. Where it does it's extremely expensive, and the phones that support it are battery hogs (less than 2 hours use of 3G functionality on a phone that otherwise gives 30 hours of talk-time).

Only 4-8GB of storage. Only? Most smartphones come with 128MB or less! Sure, they've got an SD (or mini-SD, or micro-SD) slot, but the phone doesn't have 4-8GB of storage.

Very expensive. Compared to what? Seriously, compared to what? You're not going to find a smart-phone on the market that has the same features as the iPhone for less. Period. End of story. Even if you ignore the mulit-touch nature of the screen, and the built-in storage capacity the iPhone is the least expensive phone in its feature-set neighborhood. The phones that come close in features & price come with 128-256MB of storage, and you'll spend another $80 getting a 4GB mini-SD card for them if you can even find one (god forbid you want an 8GB card).

For a Zune phone to be a threat it wouldn't need to have all the amazing iPhone features, it could simply be an MP3/Video Player capable of making calls and sending e-mails with a 20-30 GB capacity and lower price.

A Zune phone without all the amazing iPhone features would be yet another Windows Mobile smart-phone, which combined have managed to capture 4.5% of the smart-phone market which represents a piddly 5% of the cell-phone market. Give it a 20-30GB drive, and you're looking at something even larger than the 30GB Zune (which is slightly larger than the 80GB iPod). Remember, a device doesn't get *smaller* when you start adding radios and antennas. If the Zune phone has 20-30GB of flash, it's *not* going to be less expensive than the iPhone.

Should they go the whole hog and make a PDA phone, they would be able to call upon all the experience they have in the mobile software business already.

The experience that finally brought us an acceptably usable PDA interface with winCE 5 (Windows Mobile 5)?

Bitch all you want about idea stealing but you must never underestimate MS.

I've discovered over the past 10 years as a software developer (using mostly Microsoft products) that it's actually quite *difficult* to underestimate Microsoft. For example, when they first announced the intended ship-date of Longhorn (well before they announced the Vista name), I had it pegged as being released in early- to mid-2006. When did it ship? Late 2006 for enterprise customers, and early 2007 for consumers.

For me capacity and price are the biggest problem with the iPhone. Apple will surely have to broaden the iPhone line to appeal to average customers. An iPhone nano seems like an obvious move.

If capacity and price are the biggest problems you have with the iPhone, I can only assume you have the same problem with every other smart phone on the market. None have anywhere *near* the capacity of the iPhone, and nothing with anything close to the feature-set of the iPhone is noticably cheaper.

There's only one way Microsoft is going to beat the feature-set of the iPhone *and* beat the price. Unfortunately, that way is an illegal activity for a monopoly referred to as 'dumping', where the monopoly enters a market selling their goods below cost in order to drive out the competition. To top it off, if MS *did* try dumping, they'd have more than just Apple filing anti-trust complaints. They'd have the entire smart-phone market *including* their Windows Mobile smart-phone partners.
 
I view competition that results in Apple having to reduce their prices a Good Thing.

Microsoft have already the mobile platform - all they need is the hardware - and they have their own branded media phone.

Why do you view competition as bad?


Y
In my opinion, this move is very dirty one, yet very clever. It might turn around everything and also may lead to Apple being forced to reduce their price; which could be a loss.
 
For example, Nokia N Range - i.e., Nokia N95. It doesn't have the interface of course, but you can use memory cards ( up to 2Gig each ).

http://www.nseries.com/nseries/v2/m.../tech_specs_n95_en_R1.html?lang=en&country=R1

It'll be subsidized by carriers, or you can buy outright and unlocked.

Very expensive. Compared to what? Seriously, compared to what? You're not going to find a smart-phone on the market that has the same features as the iPhone for less. Period. End of story. Even if you ignore the mulit-touch nature of the screen, and the built-in storage capacity the iPhone is the least expensive phone in its feature-set neighborhood. The phones that come close in features & price come with 128-256MB of storage, and you'll spend another $80 getting a 4GB mini-SD card for them if you can even find one (god forbid you want an 8GB card).
 
Zune is MS's first step into a new market, like the xbox they developed the product quickly and are willing to take a big hit in the pocket to see it succeed.

Some people would argue that if you take a big hit in the pocket, the product *didn't* succeed.

For example, when the XBox left the market (at the introduction of the 360), it was about 2 million units ahead of that generation's 'loser' (the GameCube). Unfortunately, MS reports the number *shipped* while Nintendo reports the number *sold*, so the difference is very likely to be smaller, though the XBox probably did still come out ahead on unit sales. However, the PS2 sold about triple what the XBox and Game Cube did *combined*. In that kind of scale, the XBox and Game Cube were *both* the losers of the generation, seperated by a statistically insignificant margin.

Now take a look at it from a profit perspective. Again, Sony wins in this comparison, but Nintendo takes a distinct 2nd place having made a hefty profit of the Game Cube. Microsoft, however lost (IIRC) an estimated 1-2 billion on the XBox (nothing major for MS, but not pocket change even for them).

In market-terms the XBox was nothing except an abject failure. The 360 seems to be about as popular as the XBox was, and this time around, I expect MS will manage to break even, or maybe pull a small profit, but I still think Sony is going to come out ahead of MS in the long term. This generation, however will probably end up being owned by Nintendo with their Wii. It was released on November 20th, and it's *still* selling out as soon as shipments arrive. The PS3 has gotten to the point where you can walk in late in the week and find 2 or 3 available. (We're not talking massive piles, but you can find them if you check around.) The 360 has a 1-year lead on, but both the PS3 and the Wii are selling better at this point than the 360 did at the same point after it's release (the Wii by a large margin).
 
For example, Nokia N Range - i.e., Nokia N95. It doesn't have the interface of course, but you can use memory cards ( up to 2Gig each ).

http://www.nseries.com/nseries/v2/m.../tech_specs_n95_en_R1.html?lang=en&country=R1

It'll be subsidized by carriers, or you can buy outright and unlocked.

That doesn't compare at all. It's like answering the question "What pickup truck can you get for under $5000?" with "Well, I can get a radio flyer wagon, replace one of the axles, attach a lawnmower engine, and bolt a bicycle seat to it..."
 
They came in late and managed to make a huge impact - especially with the 360.

MS came in a little late in the XBox/PS2/GC generation and barely managed 2nd place by losing more money on the endeavor than they brought in with it.

MS entered the 360/PS3/Wii generation *early*. With a year's lead-time they're leading the pack with 10.4 million, but comparing roughly the same time span from release, here's the figures (http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=8498):
Wii - 3.19 million (launch to end of 2006 = 41 days)
PS3 - 1.84 million (launch to end of 2006 = 43 days)
360 - 1.5 million (launch to end of 2005 = 39 days)

Note that the 360 didn't have any competition from its own generation for a year, and is still being out-sold by the PS2. Also note that the Wii's numbers are currently being held back by availability and the PS3 has only just recently gotten past that point.

Also note that MS releases *shipped* numbers while both Nintendo and Sony release *sold* numbers. I've seen accusations that MS flooded the supply chain with 360s this Xmas season to make their numbers look better, but I figure it's more likely that they over-estimated the demand in the face of the PS3 & Wii releases.
 
Why doesn't it compare?

Its a smartphone + media phone , just like the iPhone.

That doesn't compare at all. It's like answering the question "What pickup truck can you get for under $5000?" with "Well, I can get a radio flyer wagon, replace one of the axles, attach a lawnmower engine, and bolt a bicycle seat to it..."

I was just reading a similar post in the Gaming Thread!

We'll have to wait around 12 months or so - when all supply constraints are over - to get a clear picture.

That comparison below is good for sales.

MS came in a little late in the XBox/PS2/GC generation and barely managed 2nd place by losing more money on the endeavor than they brought in with it.

MS entered the 360/PS3/Wii generation *early*. With a year's lead-time they're leading the pack with 10.4 million, but comparing roughly the same time span from release, here's the figures (http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=8498):
Wii - 3.19 million (launch to end of 2006 = 41 days)
PS3 - 1.84 million (launch to end of 2006 = 43 days)
360 - 1.5 million (launch to end of 2005 = 39 days)

Note that the 360 didn't have any competition from its own generation for a year, and is still being out-sold by the PS2. Also note that the Wii's numbers are currently being held back by availability and the PS3 has only just recently gotten past that point.

Also note that MS releases *shipped* numbers while both Nintendo and Sony release *sold* numbers. I've seen accusations that MS flooded the supply chain with 360s this Xmas season to make their numbers look better, but I figure it's more likely that they over-estimated the demand in the face of the PS3 & Wii releases.
 
Why doesn't it compare?

Its a smartphone + media phone , just like the iPhone.

How doesn't that nokia compare?

Smaller screen
1/2 the resolution
160MB memory
can be expanded with micro-SD cards up to 2GB (approx $60+ each)
less battery life (measured by talk-time)
No 900MHz band GSM
Worse interface
Larger than the iPhone
- Nokia N95: 99 x 53 x 21 mm = 110,187mm^3
- iPhone: 116 x 61 x 11.6 = 82,081.6mm^3
$799 (probably the unlocked price, but that would mean it's still going to be about $550 with a plan subsidy)

Hows that for why it doesn't compare?
 
I see these what you specify as different *specs*, it still allows them to be compared.

Additionally, I see the N95 as iPhone competition - they are both media smartphones and both have very good internet capabilities - email, browser ( both based upon Webkit ) etc.

How about, what specs iPhone lacks:
- 3G ( at the moment )
- Java
- An open 3rd party software support
- GPS
- good quality camera ( with video recording )
- ability to watch TV content - via 3g
- TV out
- FM Radio
- ability to replace the battery
- one handed usage ( iPhone requires two hands )

The price of the N95 will quickly come down, unlike the iPhone.

N95 most certainly does support 900mhz GSM!!
http://forum.nokia.com/devices/N95

Note: Symbian is quite an efficient OS - and doesn't require lots of RAM - unlike OSX - mobile.

How doesn't that nokia compare?

Smaller screen
1/2 the resolution
160MB memory
can be expanded with micro-SD cards up to 2GB (approx $60+ each)
less battery life (measured by talk-time)
No 900MHz band GSM
Worse interface
Larger than the iPhone
- Nokia N95: 99 x 53 x 21 mm = 110,187mm^3
- iPhone: 116 x 61 x 11.6 = 82,081.6mm^3
$799 (probably the unlocked price, but that would mean it's still going to be about $550 with a plan subsidy)

Hows that for why it doesn't compare?
 
You guys kept talking about the technicality point of view. What about business?

In my opinion, this move is very dirty one, yet very clever. It might turn around everything and also may lead to Apple being forced to reduce their price; which could be a loss.

I think you are right about this. This is a very good business move. Here's why:

It will be very hard for Zune to replace the iPod. But if a large percentage of uses will eventually buy their "iPod" as an iPhone, then getting into this business is smart.

The real smart part is that Apple is vulnerable in this space (phones). It is locked into Cingular, and the cost is high.

Microsoft, if it uses its cash in this space, could sign up multiple carriers and lock in a bigger portion of the market almost immediately. Yes, their product will most likely be inferior, but so is their OS and it has the lion's share of the market.

From day one I thought Apple's deal with Cingular was the product's fatal flaw. This is one way it could manifest itself.
 
Additionally, I see the N95 as iPhone competition - they are both media smartphones and both have very good internet capabilities - email, browser ( both based upon Webkit ) etc.
Well, I agree, as much as the PS3 is Wii competition.

You know how the Wii is getting a lot of sales from people who never would have other considered getting a gaming console...

... that's exactly how I see the iPhone working.

So just like serious gamers would never consider a Wii (Nintendo can't make them fast enough for the general public), I don't see a lot of serious smartphone people considering an iPhone...

... and I don't think the loss of people like that's going to slow Apple down one bit.

The real smart part is that Apple is vulnerable in this space (phones). It is locked into Cingular, and the cost is high.
Yeah, I was thinking about that too.

My guess is that Apple is gambling that nobody else will come up with something as good as their product before their exclusive contract with Cingular is up.
 
Certainly, the iPhone will attract people who would not otherwise buy a 'proper' smartphone.

Your anology ( spelling ) of Wii v PS3 - iPhone v Traditional Smartphones - is a good one ( apart from the iPhone is considerably more expensive than the Wii given the comparison ;-) )

Serious gaming seems to be graphic whores! :D

Well, I agree, as much as the PS3 is Wii competition.

You know how the Wii is getting a lot of sales from people who never would have other considered getting a gaming console...

... that's exactly how I see the iPhone working.

So just like serious gamers would never consider a Wii (Nintendo can't make them fast enough for the general public), I don't see a lot of serious smartphone people considering an iPhone...

... and I don't think the loss of people like that's going to slow Apple down one bit.
 
Having briefly worked at Microsoft, I can confidently say that they are truly under the impression that they can do no wrong. They sit around in meetings and operate inside a delusional bubble. If you think Steve Jobs' "reality distortion field" is bad, go work at Microsoft! MS has all these separate business units that just do what they want -- it's a beast with many heads, and Ballmer is obviously the ass.

The only shortcoming I can see to the iPhone is that it runs exclusively on the worst mobile network in America. I don't know where Cingular gets off on its claims of being the #1 mobile network, but their customer service is crap and their coverage is even worse. I had Cingular last year, and could not make a single phone call from Seattle to Phoenix without losing the signal or the call being dropped. It was an absolutely horrid experience, and I've been in heaven since moving to Verizon.

No matter how good the iPhone is, I won't buy one as long as it only works with Cingular. I will never give Cingular another dime of my money. EVER.
 
I'll assume you meant 'threat'. :D


The Zune is a decent player that has attracted *mixed* reviews, and *minimal* interest from PC tech heads. Remember, this is the DAP that was out-sold by a record player less than a month after it was launched.
No argument with the 'MS will throw money at a problem' point, it's what they're best at. Unfortunately, they throw money at a problem, and consistently end up with mediocre solutions. It's just the way they are.
Where have they showed they can develop hardware in a very short space of time (given that cost isn't really a factor for MS)? The XBox? Essentially a PC. The 360? Not developped in 'a short space of time'. The Zune? A different face-plate on a pre-existing Toshiba MP3 player that didn't sell well the first time around.


For the most part, the *US* doesn't have 3G yet. Where it does it's extremely expensive, and the phones that support it are battery hogs (less than 2 hours use of 3G functionality on a phone that otherwise gives 30 hours of talk-time).

Only 4-8GB of storage. Only? Most smartphones come with 128MB or less! Sure, they've got an SD (or mini-SD, or micro-SD) slot, but the phone doesn't have 4-8GB of storage.

Very expensive. Compared to what? Seriously, compared to what? You're not going to find a smart-phone on the market that has the same features as the iPhone for less. Period. End of story. Even if you ignore the mulit-touch nature of the screen, and the built-in storage capacity the iPhone is the least expensive phone in its feature-set neighborhood. The phones that come close in features & price come with 128-256MB of storage, and you'll spend another $80 getting a 4GB mini-SD card for them if you can even find one (god forbid you want an 8GB card).



A Zune phone without all the amazing iPhone features would be yet another Windows Mobile smart-phone, which combined have managed to capture 4.5% of the smart-phone market which represents a piddly 5% of the cell-phone market. Give it a 20-30GB drive, and you're looking at something even larger than the 30GB Zune (which is slightly larger than the 80GB iPod). Remember, a device doesn't get *smaller* when you start adding radios and antennas. If the Zune phone has 20-30GB of flash, it's *not* going to be less expensive than the iPhone.



The experience that finally brought us an acceptably usable PDA interface with winCE 5 (Windows Mobile 5)?



I've discovered over the past 10 years as a software developer (using mostly Microsoft products) that it's actually quite *difficult* to underestimate Microsoft. For example, when they first announced the intended ship-date of Longhorn (well before they announced the Vista name), I had it pegged as being released in early- to mid-2006. When did it ship? Late 2006 for enterprise customers, and early 2007 for consumers.



If capacity and price are the biggest problems you have with the iPhone, I can only assume you have the same problem with every other smart phone on the market. None have anywhere *near* the capacity of the iPhone, and nothing with anything close to the feature-set of the iPhone is noticably cheaper.

There's only one way Microsoft is going to beat the feature-set of the iPhone *and* beat the price. Unfortunately, that way is an illegal activity for a monopoly referred to as 'dumping', where the monopoly enters a market selling their goods below cost in order to drive out the competition. To top it off, if MS *did* try dumping, they'd have more than just Apple filing anti-trust complaints. They'd have the entire smart-phone market *including* their Windows Mobile smart-phone partners.

Everything you said is exactly the truth. It's so funny when people write that the iPhone won't do well because it's to expensive. Expensive from what? Your measly $100 cell phone with primative Java enabled browsing and your massive 64mb (if your lucky) built in memory. Even at around the same price as the iPhone, you won't get anything even close to the same featureset and storage capacity.

To those saying that 4/8g isn't enough space, what the hell do you want, a portable hard drive? No, it's a phone! A phone that can play you some movies and mp3s while you browse the web, take pictures, make phone calls, etc. Not a freaking second back up drive so you can transfer your porno. Gimme a break people, 4/8g is huge for such a multi-function device that can still rest in the palm of your hand with ease.
 
Disagreed

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The notion that, from a standing start on Feb 1, Microsoft could have a product of the complexity of a smart phone ready this year strains the imagination. I think Microsoft would have to get through FCC approval for U.S. sales just like Apple is doing. Apple worked on iPhone for a long while. There's simply no way Microsoft could do all the things that need to be done in that short a time.

Apple releases iPod updates or new models on the average of every 6 - 8 weeks. Microsoft already said that it would be a year before there would be a new Zune model. And that's just the player - add a phone and do it months faster? No way.

Develping a new product, going through R&D, testing, debugging, FCC approval would take a long time of course to match Apple's iPhone. But who said MS develops anything new?

The Zune was a Toshiba player with FCC approval that MS bought and retooled a little. I'm guessing actual MS development of that player was only a few months in order to brand it with MS software and a lousy PR scheme.

I can see a smartphone being made right now by another Japanese or Korean comapny that MS is trying to purchase and rebuild via the interface. You know, to give us the full windows experience via a 4 inch handheld.
I can definately see a poorly improvised bug ridden rebranded device in time for the holidays. Come on, who said anything about these guys creating anything new?
 
GAWWWDDD!!!! Microsoft is so lame! ...and they've always been lame!
(and no, I'm not just saying this because I'm an "Apple fanboy" or because I'm on macrumors.com... Seriously, deep down they got to know how much they really suck!

A movie I haven't seen for years and just watched again is "Pirates of Silicon Valley". It is so incredibly funny that things have not changed at all with Microsoft's business strategies.

I would be so depressed if I worked at Microsoft.... sooooo depressed :(
 
I never astroturf. I'm pretty open about working for Microsoft. The Zune came out last November. In fact, Wikipedia pegs the release date as being November 14, 2006.



Really? What have you had to do with it? I love hacking code on my Dash, since I get to work with C# in Visual Studio 2005 (bias alert: I work on Visual Studio). I've tried my hand at developing Palm software once or twice, and it never seemed as easy. I'd love to hear what other embedded operating systems you've worked with. Is it just an issue of logo certification? You should complain to the Windows Mobile team, if that's the case.

Cheers,
Aaron

Windows Mobile might be nice for you to develop on, doesn't mean it's particularly good.

This is a big part of the problem (and success) for Microsoft. They cater to developers (which gets them a buttload of support), but the user experience sucks.

This is also part of a larger problem with developers: they often have no idea of how a non-developer thinks/uses an application. And this is the key aspect of Apple software. It is designed to be used by a normal person that doesn't think in C++. That's why you hear things like "Apple software makes sense."

And yes, I've used Win mobile...pfft. Example: I spent 5 minutes trying to navigate a webpage with a UI designed for a mouse/curser, but conveniently forgets to include a mouse/curser :p

I've worked in IT for 15 years... and am familiar with at least a dozen OS. If I can't figure out how to do basic navigation in the OS, something is seriously broken with it.

This is just getting ridiculous ...
Some day, M$ will realize it is cheaper just to buy Apple than try to copy it ...

I dunno, 100-120 billion* is pretty expensive.

* Apple is currently worth about 80 billion. To buy it, there would have to be some sort of premium applied to get stockholders/board to approve. In fact, considering it would be MS buying, the premium might be something like 100%. So try 160billion.
 
Let's not forget Microsoft has been developing phones since 2002 (pocketpc phone editions) along with the manufacturers.

IMO, I dont think they will make this 2007 holidays.
 
Sorry if I mis-understand you, but microsoft have got the lionshare of the 3rd gen market console - having released the 360 a year in front of anyone else ( well, that was down to Sony's recent problems ).

The Wii is selling very well and has what - 4 million sales - that is very impressive in such a short time. Its an excellent machine, but thus far, no game has utilitised its full graphics potential ( like all games after any console launch ). A shame.

I hope the Wii doesn't turn out to be a fad - because it deserves to do very well. Unlike other consoles - it really does get you interacting with the game.

I would be surprised if the PS3 over turns the 360 lead - without hefty PS3 price cuts to match or better the 360 price. I really think Sony have blown it with the PS3.

We will have to wait for around 12 months to get a true picture of the 3rd Gen consoles - by then all supply constraints should be been resolved.



To get back on topic... a Zune smartphone.. interesting. So, how will it differ from any other smartphone-enabled-media phone?!

True, but the 260 hasn't even been able to outsell the PS2. The xbox has about 14 million sold in 14 months, the Wii sold 4 million in 2-3. That 1 year lead time advantage looks like it will disappear by the end of the year.
 
People fail to realise you DO get a similar feature set to the iPhone with functionality on top of for the same price as iPhone.

You may not get the *identical* feature set, with some features lacking and some extras that the iPhone doesn't have.

People seem to have the impression that the iPhone contains these feateures that no phone has seen before on one device!! The software on the iPhone is nothing special, its the UI - nothing more. In fact, the iPhone lacks a lot of features that phones have had for some time now.

Even at around the same price as the iPhone, you won't get anything even close to the same featureset and storage capacity.

You mean the 360 :D

True on both counts - the 12 month 3rd gen 360 lead. You must consider the PS2 has been out for signficiantly longer than the 360. We must wait longer for a true picture of the 3rd Generation sales figures. Its too early for a clear indication.

True, but the 260 hasn't even been able to outsell the PS2. The xbox has about 14 million sold in 14 months, the Wii sold 4 million in 2-3. That 1 year lead time advantage looks like it will disappear by the end of the year.
 
not in development yet, why bother bashing? MS was in smartphone OS market for years.
and even they were to come out with a Zune UI touch screen smartphone, how do u know they are copying apple? don't forget LG already has a touch screen phone ahead of apple, copy, copy, why the hell u think "copy" is the word that fit? apple didn't invent the world!

If apple was so confidant, and have all the patent, go sue M$, lets see whats gonna happen.
 
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