Microsoft's Bing to Replace Google As Default Search Engine on iPhone?

[Surely]

Seems like you have absolutely no clue as to what vendor lock-in means.

What exactly has Apple done to lock me into their OS ? I can install any OS on my Mac hardware and go on using all my content with no problem. If tomorrow OS X ceased to exist, I would just move back to Linux, which I was using before buying my Macbook.

Apple not allowing you to install OS X on anything but a Mac is not vendor lock-in.

Um: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in#Apple_Inc.

Apple has made it extremely difficult, if not impossible (especially for the non-computer savvy), for you to install OSX on a computer that isn't a Mac.

All you did was flip my argument from OSX-centric to hardware-centric. I wasn't talking about the ability to install other OS's onto a Mac- I was talking about the inability to install OSX on another computer.

According to your argument, if I am a Bing user, and it ceases to exist, I can go back to using Google or Yahoo!, which is what I was using before I started using Bing.

 

[cmaier]

Um: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in#Apple_Inc.

Apple has made it extremely difficult, if not impossible (especially for the non-computer savvy), for you to install OSX on a computer that isn't a Mac.

All you did was flip my argument from OSX-centric to hardware-centric. I wasn't talking about the ability to install other OS's onto a Mac- I was talking about the inability to install OSX on another computer.

According to your argument, if I am a Bing user, and it ceases to exist, I can go back to using Google or Yahoo!, which is what I was using before I started using Bing.

Finally something true. If you rely on OS X, you are indeed locked into Apple hardware. Of course, people seldom apply the vendor lock-in scenario to that situation - in fact, not even the wikipedia article to which you link makes that argument. Vendor lock in usually applies to the idea that once you start using a product, your data is stuck in that ecosystem with no (practical) escape to competing ecosystems. The wikipedia article talks about Apple in that regard - DRM'd music, unusual data media, etc.

 

[cumanzor]

It's beginning to look like Apple is leveraging it's talks with MS/Bing to get new deals with Google.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=29832...Net+All+Blogs)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

"Pressed further, he would only repeat that the business relationship between the two companies was “quite stable right now” and that he would not comment or speculate about any sort of deals or talks that might or might not be going on."

Very interesting. But saying that they are losing one of their biggest partners won't look very good to the investors.

Check this story out, it says a different story: http://www.cnbc.com/id/34956650/

 

[cmaier]

Very interesting. But saying that they are losing one of their biggest partners won't look very good to the investors.

Check this story out, it says a different story: http://www.cnbc.com/id/34956650/

My opinion of CNBC's veracity mirrors that of Jon Stewart.

 

[KnightWRX]

Um: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in#Apple_Inc.

Apple has made it extremely difficult, if not impossible (especially for the non-computer savvy), for you to install OSX on a computer that isn't a Mac.

All you did was flip my argument from OSX-centric to hardware-centric. I wasn't talking about the ability to install other OS's onto a Mac- I was talking about the inability to install OSX on another computer.

But what exactly locks you into OS X ? OS X for the most part is very standards compliant and produces content in very standard formats. This is not proprietary at all. I have access to all the same tools on Linux as I do on OS X. I'm not locked in at all.

My content will still work, I will still be able to read my documents after I've switched OS. Apple does a very poor job of locking me in. Otherwise, they wouldn't use AAC for music, they wouldn't support H.264 for videos, PDF for documents, JPG/PNG for images...

You know, standard formats everyone and their dog supports on their OS.

The DRM thing is another story for another day. DRM is evil. Apple using DRM locks you into Quicktime to watch their movies. Thankfully, they got rid of it for music. In a sense, the iTunes Store has some form of vendor lock-in. Not OS X.

According to your argument, if I am a Bing user, and it ceases to exist, I can go back to using Google or Yahoo!, which is what I was using before I started using Bing.

Yeah, just like if IE ceased to exist, you could move to Firefox ? Right... tell that to the many corporations that are stuck on IE6 because they used MS tools to write web apps that produced code that was locked to IE6 only. And to redo it all would be too big of a financial burden to the enterprise in question.

Leave it to Microsoft to take something seemingly open and non-proprietary like an HTML renderer and manage to lock you into their stuff with it, killing competition and stiffling innovation

Like I said, just give MS a chance, they'll figure out how to make switching back to Google as much of a pain as possible (including financial or data loss to you). Just like they made sure all your Word docs would be stuck to Office for the rest of your life (in 2010, people still have yet to figure out Office 97's version of .doc to implement a 100% working clone).

Finally something true. If you rely on OS X, you are indeed locked into Apple hardware. Of course, people seldom apply the vendor lock-in scenario to that situation - in fact, not even the wikipedia article to which you link makes that argument. Vendor lock in usually applies to the idea that once you start using a product, your data is stuck in that ecosystem with no (practical) escape to competing ecosystems. The wikipedia article talks about Apple in that regard - DRM'd music, unusual data media, etc.

Exactly, vendor lock in is about data and functionality, not a particular OS on particular hardware. We moved all of our Web apps from Solaris SPARC to Linux x86-64 at work, changing our hardware provider to HP. We lost exactly 0 data, and we didn't rewrite a single line of code.

That's because Java is platform independant for the most part, our code was platform agnostic, making sure to not use any vendor specific extensions and our data was available in a multi-platform format being stored in a Oracle database (which could be converted anyway).

OS X does not lock you in. It doesn't lock down your data and content and it does not have very many "vendor specific extensions". Heck, even the OpenStep platform they use is documented and anyone is free to reimplement it (see GNUstep).

 

[Eidorian]

Vendor lock in usually applies to the idea that once you start using a product, your data is stuck in that ecosystem with no (practical) escape to competing ecosystems.

Welcome to how I feel with my Spotlight data.

 

[LagunaSol]

Vendor lock in usually applies to the idea that once you start using a product, your data is stuck in that ecosystem with no (practical) escape to competing ecosystems. The wikipedia article talks about Apple in that regard - DRM'd music, unusual data media, etc.

Surely is surely confused. Anyone who thinks Apple epitomizes technological "lock-down" while Microsoft represents "free and open computing" (which seems to be a standard argument by the MS apologists) has never worked in a corporate environment and/or is completely unfamiliar with corporate IT.

Oh, and guess how many of our intranet systems are difficult/impossible to update because they're hopelessly trapped in the slimy tendrils of standards-crushing IE 6?

 

[Eidorian]

Surely is surely confused. Anyone who thinks Apple epitomizes technological "lock-down" while Microsoft represents "free and open computing" (which seems to be a standard argument by the MS apologists) has never worked in a corporate environment and/or is completely unfamiliar with corporate IT.

Only in some black and white upside down world where lobster is slave to clam that I keep hearing about.

 

[Surely]

Surely is surely confused. Anyone who thinks Apple epitomizes technological "lock-down" while Microsoft represents "free and open computing" (which seems to be a standard argument by the MS apologists) has never worked in a corporate environment and/or is completely unfamiliar with corporate IT.

Oh, and guess how many of our intranet systems are difficult/impossible to update because they're hopelessly trapped in the slimy tendrils of standards-crushing IE 6?

I'm not confused. I do not think that Apple epitomizes technological lock-down. I do not think that MS represents free and open computing. I am not a MS apologist. I was just trying to show that the inability of using OSX on anything other than a Mac is a form of lock-down.

My point has always been that Bing as the default search engine means more choices for the user. It doesn't mean that it's the end of search engine choice on the iPhone as we know it. The argument back has been: "MS sucks" and "Don't worry, they'll find a way." Not good arguments IMO.

If you only read that one comment that you quoted, I can see why you would come to the conclusions that you came to. However, my argument has stretched back over a number of posts. I have merely been defending Apple's (rumored) decision to use Bing as one of the search engine options, and that it doesn't mean that the user won't be able to use Google or Yahoo! anymore because of it.


But you're right about one thing, I haven't worked in a corporate environment and I am not familiar with corporate IT. I have worked in a clinic setting during my career (however, I am back in school after making a change and will be working in a corporate environment at some point this year).

 

[KnightWRX]

I am not a MS apologist. I was just trying to show that the inability of using OSX on anything other than a Mac is a form of lock-down.

But unfortunately for you, it's not. You're just as much confused about this as you think others are about the meaning of "default".

For you to have a point, Apple would have to use every bit of their ressources to make sure moving away from OS X would result in as much financial and data loss to you as possible. Fortunately for us, Apple decided on standard formats and standard protocols for OS X, making moving away from it almost a non-issue.

As for not good arguments, what do you expect ? Me to post the entire history of Microsoft anti-trust lawsuits and investigations that showed the entire world about everything they ever did that resulted in crippling the computer industry ?

You want me to add everything they did since having convicted of abusing their monopoly ? The way they gave away Windows on netbooks to prevent Linux from growing in that segment ? The way they bought out Negroponte to kill the OLPC because it didn't run Windows and they feared a liberated computer using generation even though that wasn't the goal at all ? How about their constant refusal to use standards and their insistance on putting out proprietary alternatives that run only on Windows ? The OOXML ISO vote debacle ?

Seriously, I didn't think I'd have to make an exhaustive history of Microsoft, I was under the impression that anyone that hangs out on a technology forum would already know all of this. It seems I'm wrong. At least now I know why you think Bing is not a big issue. It's because you have absolutely no clue about what Microsoft does, did and will do again.

 

[LagunaSol]

But you're right about one thing, I haven't worked in a corporate environment and I am not familiar with corporate IT.

Prepare for the MS shackles.

I have worked in a clinic setting during my career (however, I am back in school after making a change and will be working in a corporate environment at some point this year).

You'll be sorry.

 

[Surely]

But unfortunately for you, it's not. You're just as much confused about this as you think others are about the meaning of "default".

For you to have a point, Apple would have to use every bit of their ressources to make sure moving away from OS X would result in as much financial and data loss to you as possible. Fortunately for us, Apple decided on standard formats and standard protocols for OS X, making moving away from it almost a non-issue.

No, really. I'm really not confused. For reals.

I understand the difference between what MS has done in the past and what Apple does.

But to me, it doesn't matter how Apple does it, or if their intentions are different than MS'. All I know is that I can't buy a $400 laptop from BestBuy and install OSX on it.

I can only use OSX on an Apple product (unless I'm tech savvy enough to build a hackintosh, which I don't know if I am).

As for not good arguments, what do you expect ? Me to post the entire history of Microsoft anti-trust lawsuits and investigations that showed the entire world about everything they ever did that resulted in crippling the computer industry ?

You want me to add everything they did since having convicted of abusing their monopoly ? The way they gave away Windows on netbooks to prevent Linux from growing in that segment ? The way they bought out Negroponte to kill the OLPC because it didn't run Windows and they feared a liberated computer using generation even though that wasn't the goal at all ? How about their constant refusal to use standards and their insistance on putting out proprietary alternatives that run only on Windows ? The OOXML ISO vote debacle ?

Seriously, I didn't think I'd have to make an exhaustive history of Microsoft, I was under the impression that anyone that hangs out on a technology forum would already know all of this. It seems I'm wrong. At least now I know why you think Bing is not a big issue. It's because you have absolutely no clue about what Microsoft does, did and will do again.

Yes, I do expect good arguments. Just saying "MS sucks, don't use Bing" isn't good enough. That kind of argument wouldn't fly anywhere else for anything else, so why here? If proper reasoning was provided in the first place, perhaps I would be of a different opinion. Perhaps.

I'm sorry that I don't know the specific details of MS' history. I wasn't aware that it was a prerequisite for posting on this forum. Hmmm.... not in the FAQ......


/you just don't like me because my avatar has the Leafs' logo in it....

Prepare for the MS shackles.

You'll be sorry.

lol- No I won't. I'm really looking forward to beginning my new career.

 

[KnightWRX]

No, really. I'm really not confused. For reals.

I understand the difference between what MS has done in the past and what Apple does.

But to me, it doesn't matter how Apple does it, or if their intentions are different than MS'. All I know is that I can't buy a $400 laptop from BestBuy and install OSX on it.

I can only use OSX on an Apple product (unless I'm tech savvy enough to build a hackintosh, which I don't know if I am).

And that is not vendor lock-in. Hence you even bringing it up means nothing. Apple makes OS X, Apple is free to decide the rules.

Yes, I do expect good arguments. Just saying "MS sucks, don't use Bing" isn't good enough. That kind of argument wouldn't fly anywhere else for anything else, so why here? If proper reasoning was provided in the first place, perhaps I would be of a different opinion. Perhaps.

I told you right off that the problem was MS' business tactics and their love of proprietary and vendor lock-in.

I'm sorry that I don't know the specific details of MS' history. I wasn't aware that it was a prerequisite for posting on this forum. Hmmm.... not in the FAQ......

If you don't know MS' history, why did you even try to tell me that I was overreacting and that MS wasn't that bad ? You just admitted you have no clue how bad they are.

Here, start by reading this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Halloween_documents_leak

These leaks were before the anti-trust suit, so the documents covered are the Microsoft pre-trial, when they thought they were immune to any kind of government intervention. IE, Microsoft at their worst.

/you just don't like me because my avatar has the Leafs' logo in it....

Actually no, since I don't care one bit about Hockey. If I was even close to being interested in it, I wouldn't bother with professional teams paid millions to play the game, I would go out to my local rink and play it myself.

 

[Surely]

And that is not vendor lock-in. Hence you even bringing it up means nothing. Apple makes OS X, Apple is free to decide the rules.

I told you right off that the problem was MS' business tactics and their love of proprietary and vendor lock-in.

If you don't know MS' history, why did you even try to tell me that I was overreacting and that MS wasn't that bad ? You just admitted you have no clue how bad they are.

Here, start by reading this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Halloween_documents_leak

These leaks were before the anti-trust suit, so the documents covered are the Microsoft pre-trial, when they thought they were immune to any kind of government intervention. IE, Microsoft at their worst.

To be honest, right off the bat you sounded like a typical paranoid Apple protectionist devoid of reason who despises MS and everything that it stands for.

Now I see that you are just someone who despises MS and everything that it stands for.

I will read the link that you posted. If it changes my mind about MS, I will be sure to provide a follow up post here stating that.

Actually no, since I don't care one bit about Hockey. If I was even close to being interested in it, I wouldn't bother with professional teams paid millions to play the game, I would go out to my local rink and play it myself.

They get paid millions because they are the best in the world at what they do, and people are willing to pay a premium to watch them play. Would it be better for you if the owners kept all of the millions for themselves and paid the players close to nothing (as they used to do)? But we digress....

 

[KnightWRX]

Now I see that you are just someone who despises MS and everything that it stands for.

For good reasons.

Now you're catching on. You're finally opening your mind.

They get paid millions because they are the best in the world at what they do, and people are willing to pay a premium to watch them play. Would it be better for you if the owners kept all of the millions for themselves and paid the players close to nothing (as they used to do)? But we digress....

Or you know, they could pay the players normal wages and pass on the savings by selling you a 0.99$ hot dog, a 2$ beer and a 5$ ticket rink-side.

My doctor is also the best in the world at what he does. Except what he does is save lives. Yet he's not paid millions...

Another topic for another day.

 

[PK1988]

what about the fact that Apple and MS have been enemies since the dawn of time???!!??!?!?!!????

 

[Eidorian]

what about the fact that Apple and MS have been enemies since the dawn of time???!!??!?!?!!????

I'd only blame ourselves.

 

[PK1988]

I'd only blame ourselves.

what?

ms and apple have been at it since the divide of the two of them back b4 i was born lol... google and apple have been living happily untill google has decided to make a phone, i see no reason for this to mean apple must switch search engines...

i would imagine the google phone creation team and the search engine team are almost seperate companies in there workings anyway...

 

[cmaier]

what about the fact that Apple and MS have been enemies since the dawn of time???!!??!?!?!!????

They actually haven't. Where do you think Apple got BASIC on the Apple ][?

 

[kdarling]

Surely is surely confused. Anyone who thinks Apple epitomizes technological "lock-down" while Microsoft represents "free and open computing" (which seems to be a standard argument by the MS apologists) has never worked in a corporate environment and/or is completely unfamiliar with corporate IT.

S/he didn't say any of that. You're creating bogus personal assumptions as a basis for arguments, instead of arguing the topic.

Leave it to Microsoft to take something seemingly open and non-proprietary like an HTML renderer and manage to lock you into their stuff with it, killing competition and stiffling innovation

Very much like Apple has done with mobile Safari, adding meta tags that guarantee websites will only look good on the iPhone and no other device.

Re: Java. Boy I wish the iPhone supported it. If Apple was really as "nice" as you make out, they would've done so. But they're just as into proprietary code as anyone.

 

[cmaier]

S/he didn't say any of that. You're making up bogus personal assumptions and using them as a basis for arguments, instead of arguing the topic.



Very much like Apple has done with mobile Safari, adding meta tags that guarantee websites will only look good on the iPhone and no other device.

Re: Java. Boy I wish the iPhone supported it. If Apple was really as "nice" as you make out, they would've done so. But they're just as into proprietary code as anyone.

Java sucks.

Signed,
Former Sun Microsystems engineer

 

[LagunaSol]

They actually haven't. Where do you think Apple got BASIC on the Apple ][?

Everything was going swimmingly until Jobs naively gave Gates some Macs for software development and Billy G. immediately fired up the photocopiers.

 

[Rocketman]

what about the fact that Apple and MS have been enemies since the dawn of time???!!??!?!?!!????

You are in error and I posted facts to the contrary already.

The only real question is if the iPad will be released with Office Cloud as well as iWork Cloud or not.

Rocketman

 

[Surely]

S/he didn't say any of that. You're creating bogus personal assumptions as a basis for arguments, instead of arguing the topic.

Yes. Thank you. I'm a 'he', BTW.

Very much like Apple has done with mobile Safari, adding meta tags that guarantee websites will only look good on the iPhone and no other device.

Re: Java. Boy I wish the iPhone supported it. If Apple was really as "nice" as you make out, they would've done so. But they're just as into proprietary code as anyone.

Good example. Agreed.

 

[kdarling]

Java sucks.

My best friend worked on the Java/TV API, and I code all day in it. Not arguing whether it sucks or not

However, it's the only nearly universally supported mobile app platform, even with its myriad implementation exceptions. And I'm getting too old to waste too much time writing code in multiple languages on multiple IDEs.

Apple had a chance (and Sun offered) to let millions of programmers deliver apps that worked on the iPhone and other phones with the same code base. But that would've allowed people to download apps without Apple control and royalties.