More Claims of Samsung Being Cut Out of Apple's A7 Chip Development

[tongxinshe]

Why are Apple still acting like children now that Steve Jobs is dead? Taking massive risks with moving production so that they can somehow "penalize" Samsung? Really, this is the stuff of schoolyards, not corporations.

You only have to look at Samsung's own ARM offerings to see they are way ahead of Apple, and this won't help Apple catch up.

“Way ahead of Apple”? You obviously don’t understand the industry and the technology at all.

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Well, if it is substituting Samsung for TSMC they are not diverifying

It is since Apple still gets a big portion of other components from Samsung but almost nothing from TSMC before.

 

[thasan]

Tim cook probably secretly uses a Galaxy S3

I met the person who has been the Samsung display leader till very very recently. He has more than 200 display related patents from samsung and is one the leading minds when it comes to displays. And yes, he uses an iPhone 5

 

[Karma*Police]

I was hoping the childish behavior would end with Steve...

If Samsung was a good part supplier, use them.

Get back to the basics and quit with the ******* games.

/end rant.

I think you're living in a world where ethics exist and trade secrets aren't compromised. In the real world, companies like Samsung will use their knowledge of Apple's future product plans to their advantage. No matter how much Apple leads, giving your main competitor access to trade secrets well in advance of the product rollout is not a good practice.

Apple is definitely better off without Samsung as a supplier.

 

[thasan]

Moving from one Asian "copycat" supplier to another and not expecting TSMC to decide to expand into being more than they are is naive. Short term it will seem like a win for Apple. Longer term, Apple may be creating another competitor by sending Apple dollars to TSMC. Samsung didn't go to all that effort & expense to "copy" Apple because there wasn't a lot of profit in it... even if they would eventually lose Apple as a B2B customer. TSMC is going to see those same dollar signs and be funded with lots of Apple dollars... and want to grow/diversify their business beyond what they are now. Is Apple just creating a new Samsung in terms of directly competitive products? We'll probably argue "no" now... but just wait (all companies want to do new things, diversify from the "as is" and grow their profits).

Secondly, it's sad to know that what has been quality components that make our iDevices, etc go (and go well) are going to be replaced with less known and other company products known to not do things as well. If TSMC can't do their part as good as Samsung, we are currently celebrating what will lead to our future disappointment as consumers. We might as well be saying "rah, rah Apple... way to stick it to Samsung... and us" (potentially).

A lot of our current Apple stuff has Samsung stuff in them. And they work very well. Now Apple's going to substitute those guts from known quality to less known. Hopefully future Apple stuff will still work as well.

TSMC is one of the most reputable foundries in the world. I don't think they will ever try to do what mafia like Samsung does.

 

[Mr Fusion]

I think you're living in a world where ethics exist and trade secrets aren't compromised. In the real world, companies like Samsung will use their knowledge of Apple's future product plans to their advantage. No matter how much Apple leads, giving your main competitor access to trade secrets well in advance of the product rollout is not a good practice.

Apple is definitely better off without Samsung as a supplier.

In the past couple years we've seen more product leaks from Apple suppliers not named Samsung than ever. If trade secrets are compromised like you say they are, do you think Samsung will be any less in the know if they're not handed the blueprint by Apple?

Now who's being naive..

 

[rjohnstone]

TSMC is one of the most reputable foundries in the world. I don't think they will ever try to do what mafia like Samsung does.

BWAAA HAA HAA
I needed a good laugh today.
TSMC has screwed up both the 28nm and 20nm chips so badly for nVidia that they are looking for a new foundry.
Even AMD is not happy with TSMC's quality and wafer costs.

Perhaps Samsung will take that contract. nVidia has already requested samples from Samsung.


Here's a good read.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/yield_problems_may_drive_qualcomm_nvidia_away_tsmc

 

[turtlez]

Samsung really should have sympathised with Apple to save a big business channel even if Apple were wrong. The customer is always right and in this case the customer is Apple. Though after all, this is just a claim being published on a rumor site. If true I bet the transition will take a long while.

 

[chrmjenkins]

BWAAA HAA HAA
I needed a good laugh today.
TSMC has screwed up both the 28nm and 20nm chips so badly for nVidia that they are looking for a new foundry.
Even AMD is not happy with TSMC's quality and wafer costs.

Perhaps Samsung will take that contract. nVidia has already requested samples from Samsung.


Here's a good read.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/yield_problems_may_drive_qualcomm_nvidia_away_tsmc

I'm not saying this was the original poster's intent or that I agree with him, but you're conflating business reputation with product quality. A company can have great business relations and contract fidelity and still put out a crappy product.

 

[rjohnstone]

I'm not saying this was the original poster's intent or that I agree with him, but you're conflating business reputation with product quality. A company can have great business relations and contract fidelity and still put out a crappy product.

That has been TSMC's issue for a long time.
They build good relationships and then ruin them with poor yields and high cost overruns.
Entire product lines from nVidia went essentially unreleased do to lack of product from TSMC. The yields were that bad.

When biggies like Qualcomm starts looking elsewhere, it's not a good sign.

 

[chrmjenkins]

That has been TSMC's issue for a long time.
They build good relationships and then ruin them with poor yields and high cost overruns.
Entire product lines from nVidia went essentially unreleased do to lack of product from TSMC. The yields were that bad.

I think Apple is willing to suffer low yields because their products are so high margin. They're willing to waste a little more to have a cutting edge process and performance. In fact, they may even be getting their own dedicated fab, which would certainly show some lack of sensitivity to TSMC's past.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's no secret that TSMC is usually first (excepting Intel which essentially non-existent for this example) and has a higher density.

 

[Ralf The Dog]

You are an idiot.

Do you think competing companies can't work together?

Do you think Sony should stop putting Windows 8 on their Sony laptops just because they compete with Microsoft in the gaming market?

Did you know Microsoft made games for the Nintendo DS even though Nintendo competes with them?

Do you think Subaru and Toyota should not of worked together to build the FR-S and BRZ when they did just because they are competing car companies?

Competing companies can still work together. Do you think Apple should work with a worse company just to get back at Samsung? That would only make the Apple chips suffer. Its a business... they aren't going to just get in bed with a crappy company to get back at Samsung.

You would only watch that stock you own drop.

When a company is actively trying to undermine your primary market and run you out of business, you don't send them your money. You tie them up in court, you tie their customers up in court, you do everything you can to support their competition, disrupt their supply chain, damage their reputation and generally cost them every penny you can.

There is a difference between friendly competition and total warfare. This is the second.

 

[deconstruct60]

There's a massive risk that the next chip will run into unfortunate production problems if Apple stays with Samsung. Production problems that only happen with chips for iOS devices, not for others.

Complete male cow manure. Samsung has used component leverage to work their way into larger markets, but there is no track record of shipping substandard parts/components off to others in order to get leverage.

Samsung isn't shipping the panels that folks have had iMac complaints about. Samsung isn't

Folks are creating crap out out of thin air to promote the Samsung boogeyman story. Samsung highly focused on taking over expanding product segment? Yes. Shipping crappy sub-components? Not. Screwing up production on purpose for large volume, high paying customers. Again not. Sure if loose so much market segment that now one of the smaller volume, not so high paying customers will get 2nd tier status. But that because are in the 2nd tier.

On the contrary, TSMC has a long and extensive track record of severely bumpy roads to during process shrink transitions. They get paid by the wafer whether the yield is lower than expected or not. If they are the only shop in town at that process level... customers just pay.

Samsung might use profits from other business to share in the cost overruns if it is in their logn term strategic interest. TSMC isn't going to engage in that kind of internal "rob Peter to pay Paul" kind of exercise. It has in part been Apple being too Scrooge McDuck in sharing R&D costs that put them into deep dependence on Samsung. That isn't Samsung "made" them do.

 

[No Pain No Gain]

Elvis has left the building.

 

[thasan]

BWAAA HAA HAA
I needed a good laugh today.
TSMC has screwed up both the 28nm and 20nm chips so badly for nVidia that they are looking for a new foundry.
Even AMD is not happy with TSMC's quality and wafer costs.

Perhaps Samsung will take that contract. nVidia has already requested samples from Samsung.


Here's a good read.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/yield_problems_may_drive_qualcomm_nvidia_away_tsmc

I meant in terms of IP.
I guessed you missed the mafia part of my comment mate

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I'm not saying this was the original poster's intent or that I agree with him, but you're conflating business reputation with product quality. A company can have great business relations and contract fidelity and still put out a crappy product.

This is exactly what I meant. thanks

 

[Bhatu]

Possibly Samsung's 20nm process technology is not that advanced as TSMC to cater A7 fabrication?!

Or maybe Samsung is too busy in adding little big cores to their Exynos microprocessors!!

 

[typeadam]

When a company is actively trying to undermine your primary market and run you out of business, you don't send them your money. You tie them up in court, you tie their customers up in court, you do everything you can to support their competition, disrupt their supply chain, damage their reputation and generally cost them every penny you can.

There is a difference between friendly competition and total warfare. This is the second.

Makes no sense. That's what business competition is. Trying to get the edge and be dominant. You expect every other phone company to roll over just b/c Apple is selling phones?
Apple v. Samsung is just high-profile b/c of their fierce competition and rivalry. Regardless whether Samsung's practices were ethical or not - it was a calculated business move - just like any other company would make and is making.
Apple v. Samsung is a civil matter, not criminal, which further illustrates the point that it was a part of business and in many people's opinion Apple felt threatened b/c of the closing competition and legal recourse was their only means of slowing Samsung.
What I think doesn't matter, I'm just trying to make a point. Therefore, yes, if the Samsung supply was superior to anyone else, these competing companies should continue to stay in business.
I do NOT want my Apple products suffering just b/c the vultures are circling Samsung, hoping for it to drop dead.

Then you have others here "thanking lord jesus christ" b/c of this.. Seriously? I'm sure "He" couldn't care less...

I like these forum debates as much as the next person but I think some are in need of the company of a woman and LESS company of their ISP...

 

[frayne182]

Makes no sense. That's what business competition is. Trying to get the edge and be dominant. You expect every other phone company to roll over just b/c Apple is selling phones?
Apple v. Samsung is just high-profile b/c of their fierce competition and rivalry. Regardless whether Samsung's practices were ethical or not - it was a calculated business move - just like any other company would make and is making.
Apple v. Samsung is a civil matter, not criminal, which further illustrates the point that it was a part of business and in many people's opinion Apple felt threatened b/c of the closing competition and legal recourse was their only means of slowing Samsung.
What I think doesn't matter, I'm just trying to make a point. Therefore, yes, if the Samsung supply was superior to anyone else, these competing companies should continue to stay in business.
I do NOT want my Apple products suffering just b/c the vultures are circling Samsung, hoping for it to drop dead.

Then you have others here "thanking lord jesus christ" b/c of this.. Seriously? I'm sure "He" couldn't care less...

I like these forum debates as much as the next person but I think some are in need of the company of a woman and LESS company of their ISP...

agreed on all points.

Seems some people on here want Apple to go with an inferior product just because they "are buddies" with Apple. I don't understand why people get so butthurt over this rivalry like they owe it to Apple to stick up for them. Or vice versa with Samsung lovers. End of the day I want the best product.

If Samsung was releasing a terrible product, then yes I'd be saying good riddance, but they don't.

 

[mabhatter]

Good for I doubt Samsung is too concerned though. They'll be busy keeping up with the S4 demand.

You do realize Apple sells as many smartphones as Samsung does... iPhone 4, 4S, and 5 = ALL the smartphones Samsung sells. And Samsung's FAB unit makes ALL those processors and Ram chips...

Apple is pulling close to 50% of the HIGH END production out of their factories... There is nobody else that can SELL $500 smartphones except Apple.

 

[roxxette]

You do realize Apple sells as many smartphones as Samsung does... iPhone 4, 4S, and 5 = ALL the smartphones Samsung sells. And Samsung's FAB unit makes ALL those processors and Ram chips...

Apple is pulling close to 50% of the HIGH END production out of their factories... There is nobody else that can SELL $500 smartphones except Apple.

Weird how the note 2 and gs3 are even more expensive to buy than the iphone 5 in a lot of carriers plus shops yet they have sold plenty.

 

[Terrin]

I was hoping the childish behavior would end with Steve...

If Samsung was a good part supplier, use them.

If Apple took care of their own house by continuing to be creative and innovate, they wouldn't have to worry about Samsung. Honestly I don't know why they'd worry about Samsung in the first place. Their phones run Android. Android is garbage that looks and feels like a middle school kid coded it during 5th period.

I feel like so many of Apple's "problems" have arisen because they have tried to appeal to the masses. They didn't earn that stockpile of cash by following, but by leading.

Get back to the basics and quit with the ******* games.

/end rant.

Would you be happy if you spent millions of dollars on research that you shared with a supposed partner that you invested hundreds of millions of dollars in so that it could make parts for you only to have the so called partner turn around and use your research for free to come out with a competing product? No, you wouldn't. Innovation is not copying your competitors products, but adding something new.

Moreover, Samsung is notorious for using inside information or borrowed information to gain a competitive edge without having to come up with the ideas itself. Just today Samsung's Offices were raided by the police in South Korea, which were looking for evidence that Samsung illegally acquired LG trade secrets.

I am surprised any company uses Samsung for parts as it will surely take any innovative ideas for itself.

 

[Mike MA]

The move to TMSC from Samsung will surely make Safari snappier.

Logged in just for the up vote

 

[Terrin]

Apple is pulling close to 50% of the HIGH END production out of their factories... There is nobody else that can SELL $500 smartphones except Apple.

I really dislike Samsung and its cheaply made products, but some of those cheaply made products sell for more than Apple's own products.

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Makes no sense. That's what business competition is. Trying to get the edge and be dominant. You expect every other phone company to roll over just b/c Apple is selling phones?
Apple v. Samsung is just high-profile b/c of their fierce competition and rivalry. Regardless whether Samsung's practices were ethical or not - it was a calculated business move - just like any other company would make and is making.
Apple v. Samsung is a civil matter, not criminal, which further illustrates the point that it was a part of business and in many people's opinion Apple felt threatened b/c of the closing competition and legal recourse was their only means of slowing Samsung.
What I think doesn't matter, I'm just trying to make a point. Therefore, yes, if the Samsung supply was superior to anyone else, these competing companies should continue to stay in business.
I do NOT want my Apple products suffering just b/c the vultures are circling Samsung, hoping for it to drop dead.

Then you have others here "thanking lord jesus christ" b/c of this.. Seriously? I'm sure "He" couldn't care less...

I like these forum debates as much as the next person but I think some are in need of the company of a woman and LESS company of their ISP...

Apple isn't afraid of competition. It isn't suing Microsoft, Blackberry, or Nokia. Apple is pissed because it spent millions of dollars in research and years of time to develop certain products that many companies thought would flop, like RIM's CEO. Apple brought Samsung into the fold and shared with it confidential information so that Samsung could make parts Apple wanted. Apple even invested in Samsung's faltering LCD business.

Samsung then used the confidential inside information obtained by virtue of its parts business to gain a competitive edge to undermine Apple.

 

[bawbac]

You do realize Apple sells as many smartphones as Samsung does... iPhone 4, 4S, and 5 = ALL the smartphones Samsung sells. And Samsung's FAB unit makes ALL those processors and Ram chips...

Apple is pulling close to 50% of the HIGH END production out of their factories... There is nobody else that can SELL $500 smartphones except Apple.

I searched to validate your claim but found nothing that indicates that Apple is 50% of Samsung's HIGH END production.

Only a small fraction(less than 1%) are paying $500+ for their iPhone.
99% buy 2 year contracts and get the phone for $200 or less.

 

[k995]

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Image​

The Korea Times reports that Samsung has been excluded from Apple's plans for its next-generation A7 system-on-a-chip expected to be released next year to power upcoming iOS devices. According to the report, Apple is moving forward with plans to shift production to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC).Other sources report that Samsung is hoping its own handsets can fill the gap to be left by Apple, as the firm has made significant investments in its processor production facilities, but that some lines may have to be shut down. Samsung is also seeking to increase its work producing graphics chips for NVIDIA.

The report follows similar claims from Taiwanese media last week, which indicated that Apple and TSMC were pushing forward on a 20-nm A7 design for launch early next year. Last month it was reported that Apple and TSMC had taped out a design for the A7, although considerable work remains before the chip will enter production.

With Apple's 20-nm A7 not expected until next year, it appears that the company's 2013 iOS device lineup will have to make use of other alternatives such as a die shrink of the current A6 chip from 32-nm to 28-nm or a more substantially reworked A6 chip. Apple could conceivably also have a new "A7" chip ready to go at 28-nm ahead of the move to the smaller and more efficient 20-nm process node next year.

Article Link: More Claims of Samsung Being Cut Out of Apple's A7 Chip Development

Lets hope they dont screw it up like with google maps and LG lcd panels.

 

[rhett7660]

talk about haters

samsung has done a commendable job with the chips.

when did anyone here have issues with their cpus?

that's right none.

Thank you samsung.

love you long time.

I don't think anybody has a problem with their chips. I think this has to do with what has gone on between the two companies.

Apple sees this a business move that needed to be done so they will do it.