More Evidence of Apple's Massive Marketshare Growth in Higher Education

[polaris20]

I don't have blinders on at all, much to your dismay. I know you're hellbent on proving an argument that doesn't exist, so I'll summarize my points again. Maybe you'll get it this time.

1. It doesn't always take hours to spec a system. Whether you're following a compatibility guide for Linux, or you've built a couple systems already, it's just not that complicated. Pick a platform, pick a board, work your way back in minutes. Even easier if you're following HCL's. You're making DIY computers sound far more complex than it is. Would you like me to increase the time to 30 minutes because sometimes I like to look at the pretty pictures? Does it take hours for some people? Well I guess, just look at LagunaSol. But I don't think that's the norm by any means, even for beginners. Chances are they'll build something Sharky's, Anantech, or Ars came up with, so they put it in a cart like you put a book in a cart at Amazon. If someone spends an extraordinary amount of time looking at parts, it's because they like to, not because they have to. There's a difference.

2. You're not going to save any money going DIY, even before factoring in time, if you use quality components. You're also losing out on a unified warranty. And please, let's not bring up Hackintosh crap. I never was referring to that in the first place. It's unsupported, and the OS is not designed to run on anything but Macs.

3. Of course it takes time to build and install the system. They don't build themselves. The value is subjective, i.e you either do it for the enjoyment or you do it to get precisely what you want.

There's a time and a place for DIY, and it's not to save money.

 

[-hh]

... so I'll summarize my points again. Maybe you'll get it this time.

1. It doesn't always take hours to spec a system.

Nor does it always only take 5 minutes.

Would you like me to increase the time to 30 minutes because sometimes I like to look at the pretty pictures? Does it take hours for some people? Well I guess, just look at LagunaSol. But I don't think that's the norm by any means, even for beginners.

Please don't insult other posters.

Instead, please simply tell us all how much time (be specific) you believe the norm is, and why.

For example, if they're (as you suggested) building "...something Sharky's, Anantech, or Ars came up with...", how long does it take to read through all of these three resources? Regardless of if you agree or not, that's definitely a consumer spending time doing research prior to actually placing the order, which is all part of the overall process of "buying."

If someone spends an extraordinary amount of time looking at parts, it's because they like to, not because they have to. There's a difference.

Unless something changed and knowledge now comes wholly formed without having to ever spend any time or do any work.

More likely, if they're doing it all at once, its simply because they haven't spent a little bit each day by "keeping up with the news".

Consider the fact that even if we spend only 1 minute per day reading the occasional article, that adds up to 365 minutes = 6 hours/year. And if we only DIY one new computer every ~3 years, that means that we've actually invested roughly 18 hours of research on it.

And sure, there's reasons why we spent time reading up on the IT news such that applying that applicable knowledge to DIY a PC is just one small part of it ... but that's already been accounted for by saying its only 1 minute's worth of the time spent: we're typically spending a lot more than just 1 minute per day.

You've already pointed out that you have prior knowledge/expertise...so the question is how many minutes per day on average do you spend to be up to date and maintain currency?

And please, let's not bring up Hackintosh crap. I never was referring to that in the first place.

Unfortunately, since this is a Mac-centric discussion group, and there's no other way to DIY a Mac-centric system, the Hackintosh is the proverbial Elephant in the room.

There's a time and a place for DIY, and it's not to save money.

So the next time that someone posts that it is a way to save money, should they be told that they're wrong 'because Polaris20 said so', or would you prefer to be PM'ed so that you can personally tell them that they're wrong?


-hh

 

[LagunaSol]

And please, let's not bring up Hackintosh crap. I never was referring to that in the first place. It's unsupported, and the OS is not designed to run on anything but Macs.

True. But why do posters keep bringing up the "Macs are too expensive, just build your own!" argument? This is a Mac-oriented forum (as hh said), so Hackintosh is implied.

And I stand by my argument that DIY computing is not a simple point-and-click affair as you and a few others have implied. The (admittedly few) people I know who build their own machines spend plenty of time researching components. A fact they fail to recognize, of course, when they kvetch about the price of Macs. I may have spent more time researching than most, but for the common computer user, DIY is not as quick and easy as you imply. Nowhere close.

Buying my new 24" iMac, at $2000, literally was a 5-minute order process. And setting it up took another 5 minutes. And I don't even have to exaggerate that fact.

 

[Eidorian]

Buying my new 24" iMac, at $2000, literally was a 5-minute order process. And setting it up took another 5 minutes. And I don't even have to exaggerate that fact.

You're dragging into this mess the value of someone's time.

-hh is already going down that route.

You don't want to go there.

 

[LagunaSol]

You're dragging into this mess the value of someone's time.

-hh is already going down that route.

You don't want to go there.

If I can bill my work at $100/hr., paying a premium for a Mac that works out of the box is a no-brainer. YMMV.

Yeah, I went there.

 

[Eidorian]

If I can bill my work at $100/hr., paying a premium for a Mac that works out of the box is a no-brainer. YMMV.

Yeah, I went there.

You're twisting my point and you're trying to elicit some sort of emotional response from me.

 

[LagunaSol]

You twisting my point and you're trying to elicit some sort of emotional response from me.

Twisting your point? Seriously? Trying to elicit an emotional response? Seriously??? Perhaps you should just carry on this argument in my behalf. You can be you, and me.

That said, the arguments of the DIY'ers seem to twist in the wind.

"Build your own to save money!" "Wait, you don't save money by building your own, you do it for fun/satisfaction/selection!"

"Don't bring the value of your time into this!" "Do bring the value of your money into this!"

"Build your own Hackintosh, it's cheaper!" "Wait, Hackintosh is a pain and probably not even legal anyway, so don't do that!"

"I can order my own PC in 5 minutes!" "Actually, it took me 5 minutes because I'd figured out over prior months exactly what I wanted."

It's hard to debate someone who is constantly changing the argument.

 

[Eidorian]

I believe you're mistaking me for someone else.

 

[LagunaSol]

And I can see why the Windows DIY crowd wouldn't want the value of time entered into the equation as their primary skill set (building computers and playing Team Fortress 2) doesn't have a real billable rate.

Hey, they'll always have spyware removal.

 

[polaris20]

Nor does it always only take 5 minutes.

Nope, not always. Sometimes I like to look at the pretty pictures.

Please don't insult other posters.

I did no such thing. Laguna said he (or she) spent a lot of time comparing prices, specs, and using spreadsheets. I didn't make that up.

Instead, please simply tell us all how much time (be specific) you believe the norm is, and why.

No, that's okay. You've already deemed me above average (in my own mind, of course) so therefore anything I come up with isn't the norm anyway.

For example, if they're (as you suggested) building "...something Sharky's, Anantech, or Ars came up with...", how long does it take to read through all of these three resources? Regardless of if you agree or not, that's definitely a consumer spending time doing research prior to actually placing the order, which is all part of the overall process of "buying."

I can't account for how detailed someone reads something, nor can I account for their reading level. So I guess we'll never know.

You've already pointed out that you have prior knowledge/expertise...so the question is how many minutes per day on average do you spend to be up to date and maintain currency?

I don't know, I really don't spend my time over thinking everything and analyzing my time management in terms of how much time I spend reading on a given subject, and then further breaking it down into whether or not it's for entertainment value, educational, or business-related. You might, but I don't.

Unfortunately, since this is a Mac-centric discussion group, and there's no other way to DIY a Mac-centric system, the Hackintosh is the proverbial Elephant in the room.

Is it? I didn't notice. I wasn't aware we were only allowed to talk about Macs here. You also must have missed where one forum member responded to me about how much research it takes to get a Hackintosh working, and I said I wasn't referring to Hacktintoshes.

So the next time that someone posts that it is a way to save money, should they be told that they're wrong 'because Polaris20 said so', or would you prefer to be PM'ed so that you can personally tell them that they're wrong?
-hh

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you didn't understand that was my opinion, even after saying my experiences are based on anecdotal evidence (as are yours), therefore not a scientific fact.

If someone says DIY is to save money, I am free to say I disagree, and give my reasoning why, based upon my experience.

I don't tell people they're flat out 100% wrong, like some people here do.

 

[BongoBanger]

And I can see why the Windows DIY crowd wouldn't want the value of time entered into the equation as their primary skill set (building computers and playing Team Fortress 2) doesn't have a real billable rate.

What if you enjoy building PCs?

 

[polaris20]

True. But why do posters keep bringing up the "Macs are too expensive, just build your own!" argument? This is a Mac-oriented forum (as hh said), so Hackintosh is implied.

I don't know; I didn't say Macs are too expensive and that people should build their own Hackintosh. I don't feel they're a good value. I don't like running OSes on unsupported hardware, for personal or business use. I certainly didn't imply Hackintoshes at all, but it seems to be fitting into hh's argument.

And I stand by my argument that DIY computing is not a simple point-and-click affair as you and a few others have implied. The (admittedly few) people I know who build their own machines spend plenty of time researching components. A fact they fail to recognize, of course, when they kvetch about the price of Macs. I may have spent more time researching than most, but for the common computer user, DIY is not as quick and easy as you imply. Nowhere close.

The process of spec'ing parts seems to be what has everyone's undies in a bunch, so I'll just say that for me and many people I know, it does not take a long time to spec a machine. I spent longer figuring out what I wanted on my Mac than I do on a typical self built box. Assembling a machine takes an hour. I don't think it took me longer than that for even the first one.

Installing the OS shouldn't be included, in my opinion because any Windows machine I'll wipe it and start fresh anyway even if it's a pre-built (to get all the crap off), and if it's Linux, I'll be doing a custom build of that regardless if it's self or pre-built.

"Build your own to save money!" "Wait, you don't save money by building your own, you do it for fun/satisfaction/selection!"

The latter is my opinion, yes. Example: you might be able to get a Dell for the same price as a self-built, but you'd like more drive bays than the Dell offers. Is this worth the time spent building it? If yes, then it's a good value.

"Don't bring the value of your time into this!" "Do bring the value of your money into this!"

Of course time spent building it is a factor. Whether or not that the result is a greater value than a pre-built is subjective and up to the user to determine.

"Build your own Hackintosh, it's cheaper!" "Wait, Hackintosh is a pain and probably not even legal anyway, so don't do that!"

Hackintoshes are a poor value, because they run an OS on unsupported hardware that is not guaranteed to work. This is my opinion, of course.

"I can order my own PC in 5 minutes!" "Actually, it took me 5 minutes because I'd figured out over prior months exactly what I wanted."

I'm still baffled why this is such a problem. Why is it okay that people spend 5 minutes selecting all the options for a pre-built but not for a self built with the same options? Is a self built made of some magical material that is somehow more complex? I guess so.

And I can see why the Windows DIY crowd wouldn't want the value of time entered into the equation as their primary skill set (building computers and playing Team Fortress 2) doesn't have a real billable rate.

It's definitely not my primary skill set, so hopefully you weren't referring to me. I spend my days on my Mac administrating Linux, Windows, and ESX servers, as well as dealing with various network issues. I don't spend my time drooling on Newegg. I play one game; Left 4 Dead. On an HP XW4600 workstation.

What if you enjoy building PCs?

No, sorry. That's unacceptable here.

EDIT

Sorry, everyone, I lied. It took me 5:37 to add everything to a cart on Newegg by cutting and pasting from the Sharky Extreme value PC guide. So there you have it: 5:37, not 5 flat. What was I thinking? Please also take into account that I'm a child prodigy in speed reading, and your results at the speed of reading combined with digesting the information can vary. I'm being just a bit sarcastic here, in case some of you have trouble telling on this here internet (Mac-based only, I'm told) forum.

I won't list the price, lest it be compared to anything else computer related. Also, since there's no enjoyment to be had while assembling this system, that is additional time wasted. I'm not a consultant anymore, but when when I was, they billed my time at $175 an hour; so apparently everything I do is worth this amount no matter what, therefore this machine is a poor value. I can't wait to tell my wife what she owes me in yard work for the month of May alone; I not only mowed the yard 4 times, but additionally I re-did the landscaping in front by tearing out old bushes and putting in new ones, as well as put in new landscaping stones. That is going to cost her. I bet I'll be able to get another Mac!

I will say though that given the price (without the time spent building factored in), I would personally just buy a base iMac, as I find it to be a better value given the ability to run OS X, iLife, and the support.

 

[LagunaSol]

I'm being just a bit sarcastic here, in case some of you have trouble telling on this here internet (Mac-based only, I'm told) forum.

Well, it is MacRumors...

I'm not a consultant anymore, but when when I was, they billed my time at $175 an hour; so apparently everything I do is worth this amount no matter what, therefore this machine is a poor value.

It is if you're spending billable time to spec/order/build your computer. Time is money, as they say.

I can't wait to tell my wife what she owes me in yard work for the month of May alone

Please let us know how that turns out.

You did remind me, I need to order Left 4 Dead, now that I have an iMac (Radeon 4850) worth running it on...

 

[polaris20]

Well, it is MacRumors...

And we all know MS apologist/fanboys never derail threads here, right?

It is if you're spending billable time to spec/order/build your computer. Time is money, as they say.

Of course. But I didn't generally bill on the weekends when on personal time, which is usually the only time I'd do a DIY these days. I don't really care for DIY for business, as there's no unified warranty, no 4 hour or next day warranty replacement.

Please let us know how that turns out.

Probably not well.

You did remind me, I need to order Left 4 Dead, now that I have an iMac (Radeon 4850) worth running it on...

It'll run beautifully on your machine, I can guarantee it, since it ran great on my 9600m equipped MBP. It's a fun game. The only reason I don't still run it on that machine is because I have the HP now, and also because I tanked my MBP dual boot install when messing with making it triple boot. Gotta love Time Machine to bring OS X back in short order!

 

[LagunaSol]

It'll run beautifully on your machine, I can guarantee it, since it ran great on my 9600m equipped MBP.

Good to hear. Bummer about the whole "reboot to play" thing, but it should get me through until the release of StarCraft 2. If it is ever actually released that is...

 

[polaris20]

Good to hear. Bummer about the whole "reboot to play" thing, but it should get me through until the release of StarCraft 2. If it is ever actually released that is...

FWIW I'm running it on Windows 7RC 64-bit on the XW and my boss is running it on the same OS on his Nehelem MP Quad (with the 4870) and it runs well. 7 seems to boot faster, but that's just "seat of the pants" testing, nothing concrete.

I wouldn't touch Vista or XP anymore, but that's just me.

 

[-hh]

What if you enjoy building PCs?

A very good question, for which I'm not sure that there's a good, simple answer.

The general problem is that it is hardly ever as simple and clean as 'just a hobby'. For example, most of us have probably bought a new Mac and then promptly threw a 3d party aftermarket RAM upgrade in it. While not particularly hard, that's still a level of DIY'ing, and since Apple sells RAM upgrades as BTO options, it begs the question as to why even bother to DIY if it is a BTO option?

Typically, its because Apple's BTO RAM is (cough) a tad expensive, which means that there's a financial cost-savings element that's influencing some buyers to DIY. As such, even if the hobbyist doesn't necessarily care (although odds are that he will not turn away such 'free money'), the DIY-simply-as-a-hobby can easily get convoluted with DIY-to-save-$ interests, particularly when they're co-mingled such as it would be here.

Ideally, just making it clear that the interest is as a hobby first and foremost, and expressed proactively (before other factors are raised), would hopefully be enough to minimize other interpretations being the default.

However, there is a particular problem with the "exactly-configuration-wanted" aspect of DIY, since there's been veritable tons of teeth-gnashing over the high (real or perceived) price of the Mac Pro and extensive Hackintosh-esque comparisons of substantially lower cost for a "What If?", commonly based on the i7 CPU. As such, substantial caution is merited for any DIY discussion that even approaches this, lest you be sucked into the very longstanding xMac debate.

Of course time spent building it is a factor. Whether or not that the result is a greater value than a pre-built is subjective and up to the user to determine.

The magnitude of the time investment is only subjective when one doesn't try to objectively assess it. And when there's not an objective measure, classically, people tend to under-estimate.

I'm still baffled why this is such a problem. Why is it okay that people spend 5 minutes selecting all the options for a pre-built but not for a self built with the same options? Is a self built made of some magical material that is somehow more complex? I guess so.

Its because having more choices requires more decisions as to which trade-off(s) to decide to make. To make a good decision invariably requires resources, so to make more good decisions requires more resources.

Thus, having "More choice" is actually a double-edged sword.

Consider just 10 different cases, 10 motherboards, 10 power supplies, 10 CPUs, 10 video cards and 10 hard drives...and we're already at 1,000,000 permutations. How long will it take one to decide which one of these 1,000,000 configuration variations to choose?

Well, it is MacRumors...(snip)...It is if you're spending billable time to spec/order/build your computer. Time is money, as they say.

The value of one's time can also be quite variable. There's been times where people have spent $200 to 'buy' a mere 4 hours of sleep.

-hh

 

[DMann]

The value of one's time can also be quite variable. There's been times where people have spent $200 to 'buy' a mere 4 hours of sleep.

-hh

One might also consider making a distinction amongst the sectors of "Prime Time," "Over Time," and "Leisure Time." One may charge a specific rate for Prime Time, a higher rate for Overtime, and either a discounted, or perhaps an even steeper premium for Leisure Time hourly billing. For a more robust adventure of leisure, I suggest DIY'ers build your own multi-touch iPhone, despite the likelihood that the hours spent yielding a functioning product would easily pay for the unit five fold.

 

[jhsfosho]

It was pretty cool to see that graph. I would bet that many students also learn more about macs once getting into college and in the dorms. I was the kid with a mac my freshman year, and since then many of my friends have bought macs to replace their dells as the dells have crapped out and my MBP is still running strong.

 

[polaris20]

However, there is a particular problem with the "exactly-configuration-wanted" aspect of DIY, since there's been veritable tons of teeth-gnashing over the high (real or perceived) price of the Mac Pro and extensive Hackintosh-esque comparisons of substantially lower cost for a "What If?", commonly based on the i7 CPU. As such, substantial caution is merited for any DIY discussion that even approaches this, lest you be sucked into the very longstanding xMac debate.

There is an xMac. It's called a Mac Pro Quad, and it's really not much different price-wise than it's competitors, The HP Z series and the Dell T series. It's a little more, but I certainly feel it's worth it. My boss has one, and it's a beautifully engineered machine that is really fast. And it runs OS X. Officially.

The magnitude of the time investment is only subjective when one doesn't try to objectively assess it. And when there's not an objective measure, classically, people tend to under-estimate.

I understand the point you're trying to make, however no one I've ever met in my personal or working life itemizes every single moment of their day spent reading or viewing content. While this is anecdotal, I'm sure my experiences aren't unique.

Its because having more choices requires more decisions as to which trade-off(s) to decide to make. To make a good decision invariably requires resources, so to make more good decisions requires more resources.

Thus, having "More choice" is actually a double-edged sword.

Consider just 10 different cases, 10 motherboards, 10 power supplies, 10 CPUs, 10 video cards and 10 hard drives...and we're already at 1,000,000 permutations. How long will it take one to decide which one of these 1,000,000 configuration variations to choose?

Again, I see the point you're making, but somehow I've been able to make it through the day with these choices available without feeling like I'm drowning.

The value of one's time can also be quite variable. There's been times where people have spent $200 to 'buy' a mere 4 hours of sleep.

-hh

True. But just because you can spend money to have someone else do something doesn't mean you have to, need to, or want to.

I can easily spend the $45 to have a extremely talented guitar technician set up and intonate my guitar in far less time than it takes me to do it. I spend typically a little over an hour doing this. It doesn't mean my time is therefore only worth $45. It means I enjoy the process of doing it myself, and therefore spending the $45 is pointless and a waste of money when I derive enjoyment from doing the work myself.

 

[LagunaSol]

It means I enjoy the process of doing it myself, and therefore spending the $45 is pointless and a waste of money when I derive enjoyment from doing the work myself.

A valid point, but the bottom line is 99% (my guess) of the general computing public would not consider building their own computer to be fun/enjoyable/a hobby. Thus the virtual head shaking you get from some of us whenever someone is derided on these forums for wanting to buy a Mac ("Overpriced!" "Underpowered!" "Rip off!!!") and is instead encouraged to "just build your own" ("Save $1,000 with only 5 minutes of work!!!").

Not by you, per se, but you've seen this happen. And it seems to be happening more and more in recent months.

 

[-hh]

A valid point, but the bottom line is 99% (my guess) of the general computing public would not consider building their own computer to be fun/enjoyable/a hobby. Thus the virtual head shaking you get from some of us whenever someone is derided on these forums for wanting to buy a Mac ("Overpriced!" "Underpowered!" "Rip off!!!") and is instead encouraged to "just build your own" ("Save $1,000 with only 5 minutes of work!!!").

Not by you, per se, but you've seen this happen. And it seems to be happening more and more in recent months.

To illustrate the large (if not overwhelming) percentage of this non-DIY'ing market, consider that 50% (Windows) to 70% (Mac) of computer sales in the USA are of a PC design that's pragmatically very difficult to DIY...namely, a laptop computer.

And if we go back to the original report at UV (here), we find that the sample size was n=3070, of which desktops=36, notebooks=3017, tablets=17 and 'two computers'=93.

Thusly, desktops are 36/3070 = 1.1%

Its just another illustration as to how consumers are voting with their wallets for how they prioritize-rank various computer features, such as portability / DIY-ability / upgradability / power / cost / etc.

FWIW, its interesting to note that there's more 'two computers' purchases than desktops...93 vs 36. The only way that this is possible is if some customers are buying multiple machines where neither is a portable (laptop/tablet). If we assume that 100% of all desktops were also dual PC purchases, that still leaves 93-36 = 57 (and 57/93 = 61%) instances where the purchase was for two portables.


-hh

 

[polaris20]

A valid point, but the bottom line is 99% (my guess) of the general computing public would not consider building their own computer to be fun/enjoyable/a hobby. Thus the virtual head shaking you get from some of us whenever someone is derided on these forums for wanting to buy a Mac ("Overpriced!" "Underpowered!" "Rip off!!!") and is instead encouraged to "just build your own" ("Save $1,000 with only 5 minutes of work!!!").

Not by you, per se, but you've seen this happen. And it seems to be happening more and more in recent months.

DIY is a very small segment of the public, yes.

People on these boards, even when completely removing DIY from the equation (such as with laptops), don't seem to understand value of a computer beyond pure specs anyway.

For example, often someone says "I can get this MSI/Asus laptop with a better graphics card for gaming and more stock memory for the same price as the MacBook. Therefore, MSI/Asus > MacBook".

Well, no. First, the laptop doesn't run OS X. This is of value to many people on this board. that's problem one. Second, a large percentage of people could care less what graphics card they have, because they don't game or play movies on their laptop. Problem two. Lastly, has anyone dealt with Asus or MSI customer support? I have. It's less than ideal, IMO. Certainly nowhere near the level Apple is, in my experience. Problem three.

But they see the nice pretty numbers, and they put their blinders on.

 

[MacLover4491]

shoot then why do people buy the macbook pro. Why put the discreet graphic in the mbp? You apple fans are funny.

 

[kurosov]

shoot then why do people buy the macbook pro. Why put the discreet graphic in the mbp? You apple fans are funny.

HE did say 'large percentage' not all. The answer is in the name 'pro'. users of pro apps and consumers have different requirements.