More on Booting Windows on the Intel Mac?

[dongmin]

I'd rather have Windows running at full speed at the SAME time as OS X, in a virtual hardware environment that protects the Mac partition from being reformatted by a Windows virus. Virtual PC--and probably others--will do just that. (It doesn't seem that Bochs does.)

This is what I'm waiting for before I plunk down $2000 for a MacBook. Right now I run a Dell box, in addition to my iBook, so I can run AutoCAD, Rhino, and 3DStudioMax. I know a lot of architects who'd get a MacBook in a heartbeat if they can run these apps. If there is one group of users that appreciate Apple's industrial design and build quality is architects. Too bad most of architecture software is for Windows only.

Anyways, back on topic, I'm surprised we haven't heard more about VMWare, Darwine, Codeweavers, Cedega, etc. I was expecting more of a splash by these folks at MWSF...

 

[pgwalsh]

Security problems are going to drive people to Apple like waves of refugees from an oppressive regime, and the ability to run Windows apps on a Mac will give them a comfortable welcome. You feed a starving man a piece of bread before you sit him down to a steak dinner.

Apple will have it's share of security problems, but they may never get to the scale Windows has.

On that note, I'd like to see Apple beef up it's security and control on OS X and now more than ever with switching to Intel. I think will see more users and with that a higher chance of malware/viruses.

I'd like to see:
1.) A better Advanced GUI for the firewall.
2.) IDS with warning and firewall port links.
3.) Inbound and outbound warning and protection ala Little Snitch.
4.) Virus Protection - not that there are any, but just in case.

Currently you need nagging shareware programs to achieve this security, unless you really know what your doing. The more we need this and rely on third party applications, the more we start sounding like Windows users, so build it in. I'm a rookie in the terminal, so I'd like to see full GUI support.

 

[GregA]

Yup. I think this will be particularly important for the Enterprise. As an employee, being able to include the fact that it can run Windows might well be the deciding factor as to whether the IT department will sign off on the purchase.

Yes, some big departments require 2 sources for everything. From this they argue that the Mac is the only computer that can run OSX, and won't consider it. Running XP will put the Macs into consideration. Hopefully then their rules will require them to evaluate OSX too. Weird logic of course. (Oh, virtual PC doesn't count in this instance either!)

I'm surprised they havent cracked it yet, shows its gonna be a hard job and therefore will never become easy for the mainstream to do, it will remain a thing for hackers to do to there intel mac's, therefore won't bring in buyers who want a mac just to run windows,

I don't think enough hackers have an Intel Mac yet to make that judgement!

Apple will come around when they realize sales are slipping. The power of the dollar $$$ is the only thinkg that will change Steves mind. He could care less about the mac revolution nowadays.

Why would Apple's sales slip. Assuming they've gone from a computer that doesn't run Windows, to a faster computer that doesn't run Windows?

Personally, I believe there'll be a reasonable virtual-machine shortly which solves the disk format recognition and bios issues. I hope VMWare is working overtime on it

It seems that for dual boot, MS will have to release an install that has a different DVD format and recognises Mac hardware (including EFI, so maybe Vista only). Or Apple will need to do something.

 

[Randall]

I'd like to see:
1.) A better Advanced GUI for the firewall.
2.) IDS with warning and firewall port links.
3.) Inbound and outbound warning and protection ala Little Snitch.
4.) Virus Protection - not that there are any, but just in case.

These are all good ideas, but unfortuantely Apple needs to worry about patching current security vaulenerabilities before they consentrate on these issues. In the meantime...

1) not really a big deal, the command line is your friend.
2) tail the system log
3) you can use Little Snitch for now like you said.
4) Clam AV is your friend, and free!

 

[php]

I just have to ask.... WHY?

Why in the world would someone want to buy a Mac just to put Windows on it? It's like buying a new sportscar and putting a 3-cylinder econo-engine in it. Honestly, if you want to play your precious computer games, just keep your cheap-o Dell.

Buy a Mac to *get away from the Windows world*. You'll never look back.

I can't believe people are so intent on pursuing this. It really is a travesty. The Mac experience is the combination of hardware and software, and the brilliant design in both. Am I the only one who sees this? Is the world going mad?

I don't know how many more times I'm going to have to say this, but there are certain speciality PC-only applications (appraisal, CAD, etc.) that ARE WINDOWS ONLY. If these applications were available for OS X, that would solve the problem. Unfortunately, they aren't, so Mac VPC or some dual-boot solution will keep me from having to buy a PC just for one or two apps.

 

[pgwalsh]

These are all good ideas, but unfortuantely Apple needs to worry about patching current security vaulenerabilities before they consentrate on these issues. In the meantime...

1) not really a big deal, the command line is your friend.
2) tail the system log
3) you can use Little Snitch for now like you said.
4) Clam AV is your friend, and free!

I have snort running via HenWen.

The command line is sort of my friend. I don't like having to remember all the names and editing things in Pico sucks IMO. BrickHouse is available as well, but I think it should be built in. What do you mean about "tail the sytem log.

 

[nagromme]

there are certain speciality PC-only applications (appraisal, CAD, etc.) that ARE WINDOWS ONLY. If these applications were available for OS X, that would solve the problem. Unfortunately, they aren't, so Mac VPC or some dual-boot solution will keep me from having to buy a PC just for one or two apps.

I'll go one step further and venture to say that the ability to run Windows apps on Mac will help bring those apps to Mac natively!

* Windows on Mac boosts Mac sales.

* Mac sales boost OS X usage.

* OS X usage boosts OS X software sales.

* OS X software sales boost OS X software development. As the Mac market grows, more and more niche apps will be considered worth porting.

* Plus (a lesser factor) users of those apps who are on a Mac will wish they could just run them natively--much like people prefer OS X apps to Classic apps--and that feedback will be coming to those developers, direct from current customers.

 

[PtMD]

I have snort running via HenWen.

The command line is sort of my friend. I don't like having to remember all the names and editing things in Pico sucks IMO. BrickHouse is available as well, but I think it should be built in. What do you mean about "tail the sytem log.

he means to use the tail command on the system log to manually watch it in a term window.

like such: "tail -f /path/to/file/to/watch"

 

[jrhone]

I'll go one step further and venture to say that the ability to run Windows apps on Mac will help bring those apps to Mac natively!

* Windows on Mac boosts Mac sales.

* Mac sales boost OS X usage.

* OS X usage boosts OS X software sales.

* OS X software sales boost OS X software development. As the Mac market grows, more and more niche apps will be considered worth porting.

* Plus (a lesser factor) users of those apps who are on a Mac will wish they could just run them natively--much like people prefer OS X apps to Classic apps--and that feedback will be coming to those developers, direct from current customers.

You forgot one thing....the COST to support Windows booting on a Mac. Unless you say that there is no support, and then no one would do it because it would be problematic. So Apple would have to train their tech support in Windows, then all the Apple Store employees, and then hire more people to deal with MORE PROBLEMS. It would be a nightmare, that would be more costly, and would only give Microsoft more Windows users. Those users that bought a Mac to run Windows, would get frustrated and migrate back to a cheaper Dell that was built for Windows....It could be a fiasco that in the end would prove to people that Macs are too difficult to learn and much too complex. Now if there is a emulation, the software company has to do the tech support, and if it doesnt work on everything, then Apple can point the finger.

 

[pgwalsh]

he means to use the tail command on the system log to manually watch it in a term window.

like such: "tail -f /path/to/file/to/watch"

I googled it.. Thanks..

Next thing is to learn what some of the stuff is... oogly boogly

 

[nagromme]

You forgot one thing....the COST to support Windows booting on a Mac.

Oh, Apple won't support it. (Microsoft very well might--certainly if Virtual PC comes out again.)

But it will happen anyway, and having the option will still benefit Mac sales--and thus Mac development.

 

[slb]

I haven't heard any word on the use of the Vanderpool virtualization technology built into the Core Duo. It automatically lets you partition off operating systems so they can run simultaneously.

 

[jrhone]

Oh, Apple won't support it. (Microsoft very well might--certainly if Virtual PC comes out again.)

But it will happen anyway, and having the option will still benefit Mac sales--and thus Mac development.

Not being pesimistic, but thats not too much different than it is now. A virtual PC type solution, but not dual booting....

 

[Peace]

So...any luck on ye olde dual-boot yet??



I told you so!

 

[FaasNat]

I hope that somebody somewhere can write a driver that supports ctrl+click as a right mouse click for Windows, otherwise you will need to be getting a USB mouse to go with your new Windows partition.

I just wish Apple started releasing these laptops with two mouse buttons. Or at the least the one big button that acts as two similar to how the mightymouse is. Thought with the release of the mightymouse, Apple was going to start moving down the road of having at least two buttons.....

 

[mk14]

Possible way to boot Windows XP on the iMac Core Duo?!?

1. Install the EFI Shell as described here.
2. When in the EFI Shell, add a new Boot Option as described in this document (in the section "Boot Option Maintanance Menu") of type "Legacy Boot" for your Windows XP boot CD or something else.

I have NOT been able to verify this because I do not own an Intel-based Mac yet .
Would be great if someone tried it. At your own risk...

Michael

 

[killr_b]

Funny I've had one virus in the past 10 years on Windows and that was on Windows 3.11. Spyware? Nope. Adware? None. Clunky interface? To each their own. I think I would rather slash my wrists then use Finder. Thankfully there are alternatives on OS X.
Stupid noises? Riiight. Crashing? Right. Because OS X is perfect. I can count on one hand how many times XP has crashed on me since 2001. Fugly? Again I'll repeat from the previous post. Grow up. Its a OS not a fricking religious icon. It’s a tool to do something. That is all. Stop being a zealot for a nanosecond and realize that. There are some of us that need the "tools" that Microsoft offers. If you can't wrap that around your shortsighted fanboi field of view I pity you. In the mean time those of us who use said tools in our profession will continue to do so without giving a crap what you think. However my original request stands to the author of the previous post: grow up.

What's that little note at the bottom????- "*Note: I refuse to use the title MacBook. While I’m not one to get hung up on names its stupid to change it for the heck of it when you have a perfectly good, and well known, name in use already. All asterisks in my post denote the substitution of MacBook with PowerBook. If you have a problem with that take it up with management."

Grow up? It's a MACbook now yo. I like Macbook. It's... mac. I like having Mac's... not Powers(?).

My OS X is better than a religous iCon(man)- I ask and shortly after receive.

B

 

[FaasNat]

I just have to ask.... WHY?

Why in the world would someone want to buy a Mac just to put Windows on it? It's like buying a new sportscar and putting a 3-cylinder econo-engine in it. Honestly, if you want to play your precious computer games, just keep your cheap-o Dell.

Buy a Mac to *get away from the Windows world*. You'll never look back.

I can't believe people are so intent on pursuing this. It really is a travesty. The Mac experience is the combination of hardware and software, and the brilliant design in both. Am I the only one who sees this? Is the world going mad?

I'm a big Mac user, maybe not as hardcore as some of the fans here on this site, but I'll happily say Windows sucks, Mac OS X is better, etc. However, I had a Windows system back in '99 - '01 and I keep looking back. Why? For the games. I had that system back then so I could play Half-Life TFC/Counterstrike. Until I see the popular games on the shelves at the Apple store (when they're still popular with the other crowd), I'll want something that can run Windows and the games for it. If I can minimize the number of systems to just one -- the Mac[in]Tel -- that would be great.

 

[nagromme]

Not being pesimistic, but thats not too much different than it is now. A virtual PC type solution, but not dual booting....

Pessimiestic? That's MUCH better than now. A virtual hardware solution (like VPC) is MUCH better than dual booting, for the many reasons discussed in this thread.

Only now, a virtual host environment can run at FULL SPEED. That IS much different from the way Windows has been on Mac in the past.

I'm sure dual-booting will be worked out as well, though--probably long before VPC is out for Intel Macs.

 

[balamw]

Only now, a virtual host environment can run at FULL SPEED. That IS much different from the way Windows has been on Mac in the past.

The lack of CPU emulation will definitely make things much better, but it still won't be quite as fast as running the same OS on bare metal. See for example http://usuarios.lycos.es/hernandp/articles/vpcvs.html the performance in the virtual environment seems to be about 90% that of bare metal for most benchmarks.

That said, I have also heard anecdoatally of some cases where WINE actually outperforms Windows in GDI calls.

I too am confident that dual booting will happen soon. (If nothing else to linux )

B

 

[jrhone]

Pessimiestic? That's MUCH better than now. A virtual hardware solution (like VPC) is MUCH better than dual booting, for the many reasons discussed in this thread.

Only now, a virtual host environment can run at FULL SPEED. That IS much different from the way Windows has been on Mac in the past.

I'm sure dual-booting will be worked out as well, though--probably long before VPC is out for Intel Macs.

OK we are on the same page....I agree 100%...there will be a software virtual environment WITHIN OSX that will allow windows to run at full, or near full speed. I don't think we will see a dual boot system for LOTS of reasons....I for one think people would go the OTHER way....use the mac more for Windows than OSX....even though OSX is better, people dont like change.....and if they dont HAVE to use OSX, they wont. there are some that would, but the masses would not.....

 

[Randall]

OK we are on the same page....I agree 100%...there will be a software virtual environment WITHIN OSX that will allow windows to run at full, or near full speed. I don't think we will see a dual boot system for LOTS of reasons....I for one think people would go the OTHER way....use the mac more for Windows than OSX....even though OSX is better, people dont like change.....and if they dont HAVE to use OSX, they wont. there are some that would, but the masses would not.....

I can almost guarantee you that we will see a dual boot system, and most likely within the next couple of months.

 

[Randall]

Dave Schroeder is getting closer to getting Windows Vista to boot up.

From Dave Schroeder
posted 01/18/06
A little more information. With the Vista EFI booter "cdboot.efi" on a Mac OS Extended partition on a GPT volume, the typical

"Press any key to boot from the CD..."

can be seen. However, you are then dumped back to the EFI shell. The booter is no doubt not finding what it is looking for, but my next step will be to attempt to construct an EFI bootable non-UDF volume with the current build of Windows Vista. In my opinion, since no legacy BIOS functionality has been included by Apple, working on Windows XP 32-bit is not worthwhile at this time.

The issue right now all seems to revolve around getting an EFI bootable instance on the right filesystem *with* all of the files in the right place. Once the initial bootstrapping is complete, hopefully more analysis can be done.

 

[maverick808]

Dave Schroeder is getting closer to getting Windows Vista to boot up.

Good news, thanks for the update.

 

[chuchin]

In fact, I'm not the stereotypical Mac fan boy. What I care about is design. There is not enough good design in this world. People put up with mediocrity every day, and most people don't care about it. That's fine for them, but for me I care about things just looking and feeling right. I care that a company put effort into making things look sleek, simple, elegant. Attention to detail is something that really means a lot to me.

This is why I recoil in horror at the thought of Windows on a Mac. It's that simple. I think there is an elegance to the Mac and its operating system that are just.... right. I guess I want other people to share in that experience. Someone buying a Mac for the first time would do themselves and the Mac a disservice by putting Windows on it.

I mean, honestly... Just think about this. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong!!! Lots of people are perfectly happy with windows but not happy with their laptops (too heavy, too ugly, too hot,...). If windows were available in a mac, they would buy it in a heartbeat.

I have a toshiba qosmio and I have friends that have acer ferraris, dell inspirons 9300 and Hp pavillions. Trust me, we all looked at the 17 inch Powerbook. If the mac would have had windows, we would all have macs.

Same thing happened with the Ipods, we did not switch to apple to get the ipods. we waited until Ipods were usable in a windows experience and we all bought them.

this has nothing to do with Tiger, leopard, or Lion. It has to do with the superiority and beauty of apple hardware.

If apple sells macs preloaded with windows, do you think that people would be buying dell, hp, toshibas or acers??