More on Booting Windows on the Intel Mac?

[nagromme]

When I say that OSX has no real enterprise server architecture for web

Of course there are enterprise things that haven't come to Mac yet. But it's not very relevant here unless you would suggest that people buy a Mac and then use it as a Windows enterprise server People who would buy a Mac and then run Windows apps on it will be doing so for personal or office apps, not for enterprise servers

(And enterprises do use Apache, and Mac Web servers: the US Army (for one of many) serves their site from Macs.)

Anyway, Microsoft just more or less retracted their earlier informal commitment to bring VPC to Intel Macs:

http://www.macminute.com/2006/01/18/virtual-pc/

That doesn't mean they won't--they are looking into it and working with Apple on the issue. It means they aren't making a promise yet. I still hold out hope

 

[maverick808]

Not much, because there are hardware specific drivers that get installed when you install Windows. If you tried to boot it that way, it could work, but probably wouldn't.

Yes I know Windows installs hardware specific drivers. But isn't there a point in the XP install where it copies the basic stuff and then reboots into an install GUI? At this point it actually boots off the hard disk and, if I remember correctly, it's AFTER it boots off the hard-disk into this install GUI that it does all the driver detection. So if you took a copy of the disk at that point then maybe it would be able to boot into the GUI installer on an Intel Mac and complete the installation from there.

I don't know if that's how the Vista installer works since I haven't bothered trying the beta for it yet. But if it is the same it could be worth a try.

 

[shawnce]

Hats off to Dave..

Posted to http://nak.journalspace.com/?cmd=displaycomments&dcid=407&entryid=407

From Dave Schroeder
posted 01/18/06

1. No, cmd-opt-E-F or cmd-opt-E-F-I does not work to get into EFI. Apple does not provide an EFI shell with Intel-based Macs.

2. These menus do not represent something that is on the Mac; it's using a tool - the Intel EFI samples, in this case - to gain access to the EFI implementation on the system.

3. Vista (Build 5270 32-bit with EFI support) does not boot even from a FAT32 partition on a GPT partitioned volume. Selecting 'bootmgr.efi' hangs the machine, and 'cdboot.efi' simply dumps back to the EFI shell after a moment. I've been working with this all afternoon, and the iMac's EFI *can* see the volume, and the Vista EFI booters: it just can't do anything with them.

 

[nagromme]

What's your point again? Don't blame the OS for user ignorance.

I don't think you read my post--understandable, this thread is pretty chaotic -- but my point was clear.

I never blamed Windows for being able to erase a Mac partition. It SHOULD be able to erase a Mac partition.

But because it can do so, so can a Windows virus. And those are a wee bit more common than Mac viruses This shows one of several advantages to running a virtual environment like VPC, as opposed to dual booting. See my post you quoted for the rest of the explanation. The one phrase you took out of context isn't the whole story.

 

[Randall]

Posted to http://nak.journalspace.com/?cmd=displaycomments&dcid=407&entryid=407

From Dave Schroeder
posted 01/18/06

damn.

 

[asphalt-proof]

In fact, I'm not the stereotypical Mac fan boy. What I care about is design. There is not enough good design in this world. People put up with mediocrity every day, and most people don't care about it. That's fine for them, but for me I care about things just looking and feeling right. I care that a company put effort into making things look sleek, simple, elegant. Attention to detail is something that really means a lot to me.

This is why I recoil in horror at the thought of Windows on a Mac. It's that simple. I think there is an elegance to the Mac and its operating system that are just.... right. I guess I want other people to share in that experience. Someone buying a Mac for the first time would do themselves and the Mac a disservice by putting Windows on it.

I mean, honestly... Just think about this. Am I wrong?

What is this 'elegance' you speak of in OSX? This 'elegance' would preclude all the GUI inconsistences that are present in OSX's present incarnation. Just look at the difference between Safari and Mail as just one example. Maybe referring to the 'physical design' of the enclosure.

 

[maverick808]

Yeah, it's not looking good so far.

I don't care about games. All I want to do is run Visual Studio and I know I'll be able to do that fine from a virtual machine running from inside OS X.

Still though, damn.

 

[EricNau]

OK, I'm all for dual booting Windows on a Mac, mainly because it would boost Apple's sales almost instantly. (and Microsoft's )

But I have two questions...

1) Would this bring all of the problems with Windows, over to Mac? For example, if I got a virus that was programed to reformat my HDD, would that wipe away the Mac section also? Would there have to be dual HDD to prevent this?

2) Could this end up hurting Apple in the long run? For example, since you could run any app on Windows, would this discourage companies from making Mac versions? So in the long run Windows takes over more than it has now?

 

[Randall]

OK, I'm all for dual booting Windows on a Mac, mainly because it would boost Apple's sales almost instantly. (and Microsoft's )

But I have two questions...

1) Would this bring all of the problems with Windows, over to Mac? For example, if I got a virus that was programed to reformat my HDD, would that wipe away the Mac section also? Would there have to be dual HDD to prevent this?

2) Could this end up hurting Apple in the long run? For example, since you could run any app on Windows, would this discourage companies from making Mac versions? So in the long run Windows takes over more than it has now?

1) No. You could get that same virus, but unless Windows could see your HFS+ partition (it can't) then there is no way for this virus to do jack to your Mac partition because as far as it knows that partition doen't exist... Ok let me change that answer to maybe, because although Windows can't read the data on your HFS+ partition, it is aware that an unknown partition exists at that spot on the disc, and could still reformat it if it has administrative priviledges. But, there is no such virus... yet. Anyway, running Windows without some type of virus protection is a bad idea, unless you're using a VM and you don't care if your Windows gets screwed by a virus because you can just reinstall it anyway.

2) No. Because right now there are many software titles for OS X and it has a small market share compaired to Windows. I don't see how having the option to install Windows on your Mac would hurt software development in OS X. I just don't see this making one lick of difference when it comes to chosing which platforms to code to.

P.S. I never thought I would see someone with an Avatar like yours saying they're all for dual booting OS X and Windows.

 

[beatle888]

Funny I've had one virus in the past 10 years on Windows and that was on Windows 3.11. Spyware? Nope. Adware? None. Clunky interface? To each their own.
I think I would rather slash my wrists then use Finder. Thankfully there are alternatives on OS X.
Stupid noises? Riiight. Crashing? Right. Because OS X is perfect. I can count on one hand how many times XP has crashed on me since 2001. Fugly? Again I'll repeat from the previous post. Grow up. Its a OS not a fricking religious icon. It’s a tool to do something. That is all. Stop being a zealot for a nanosecond and realize that. There are some of us that need the "tools" that Microsoft offers. If you can't wrap that around your shortsighted fanboi field of view I pity you. In the mean time those of us who use said tools in our profession will continue to do so without giving a crap what you think. However my original request stands to the author of the previous post: grow up.

now look who needs to grow up

seriously though. not everyone can maintain windows like you obviously can. you should be proud. but still, most people running windows dont want to have to maintain and protect their system like windows requires you to.

P.S. why are you so angry about Apple and OSX? GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

[digitalbiker]

I'm surprised they havent cracked it yet, shows its gonna be a hard job and therefore will never become easy for the mainstream to do, it will remain a thing for hackers to do to there intel mac's, therefore won't bring in buyers who want a mac just to run windows,

Shadow

This is not true at all. Once the IntelMacs are fully released and more mature there will be software companies even Microsoft with easy windows install software.

Either there will be dual boot loader software or Virtual machine software that will run windows. Microsoft will most likely update VPC for OS X on intel.

This will make it very nice for those who need windows for a certain application but want to use OS X for most of their computing needs.

Also think DirectX games, the Mac will no longer be a non-gaming machine.

 

[ChildOL]

Emulation

I don't think you read my post--understandable, this thread is pretty chaotic -- but my point was clear.

I never blamed Windows for being able to erase a Mac partition. It SHOULD be able to erase a Mac partition.

But because it can do so, so can a Windows virus. And those are a wee bit more common than Mac viruses This shows one of several advantages to running a virtual environment like VPC, as opposed to dual booting. See my post you quoted for the rest of the explanation. The one phrase you took out of context isn't the whole story.

Maybe, just maybe, Apple is going to release a layer like rosetta but that allows you to run most windows programs under OSX.

 

[Randall]

Also think DirectX games, the Mac will no longer be a non-gaming machine.

That is why we need this bastard to dual boot. I bet you the EFI on the new iMacs will be dual booting OS X and Windows Vista beta by the end of the week.

 

[Randall]

Maybe, just maybe, Apple is going to release a layer like rosetta but that allows you to run most windows programs under OSX.

You mean WINE? Why bother. Even though it's technically not en emulator, it's still a re-write of the Windows API, which results in slooooowness and is a waste of time. There will be a dual boot option down the road, and most likely a VPC update that will work very fast compared to the PPC version.

 

[LagunaSol]

Amen to that. I know of three people right NOW who are in a holding pattern. As soon as the news shows up that you can dual boot Windows onto the MacBooks they are ordering. Like it or not this is an important component to getting Windows users to purchase Apple hardware.

Yep, I'm in this holding pattern too. I use my PC very little, but still need it. And since the iMac doesn't have video in, I need to be able to run Windows on it in order to dump my G4 tower and my PC (and all the wire mess running between the two).

The minute someone figures out how to either boot Windows or run it virtually on an iMac, I'm buying.

 

[ChildOL]

You mean WINE? Why bother. Even though it's technically not en emulator, it's still a re-write of the Windows API, which results in slooooowness and is a waste of time. There will be a dual boot option down the road, and most likely a VPC update that will work very fast compared to the PPC version.

Well that may be true now, but I think Apple and Intel are up to something major regarding OSX, windows, and the intel architecture separate from just switching to intel.

 

[Randall]

Well that may be true now, but I think Apple and Intel are up to something major regarding OSX, windows, and the intel architecture separate from just switching to intel.

What makes you say that?

 

[iMeowbot]

Maybe, just maybe, Apple is going to release a layer like rosetta but that allows you to run most windows programs under OSX.

The Apple agreement with MS points to a VM with real Windows. that's a good thing, if the integration was too good the so-called OS/2 effect would be a concern.

 

[nagromme]

What is this 'elegance' you speak of in OSX? This 'elegance' would preclude all the GUI inconsistences that are present in OSX's present incarnation.

"Elegant" does not mean "perfect." Nobody would claim that OS X is perfect, not even in elegance or visual design. Merely better than Windows by enough to care about The inconsistencies you speak of ARE still annoying, no argument there.

(Even more O/T, but good news: Note that Apple has committed to a res-independent UI in OS X, and that means they are re-drawing all UI elements for higher res or vector use--and THAT almost certainly means unifying the visual elements more: why do all the work to re-draw three metal themes instead of re-drawing just the newest?)

For example, if I got a virus that was programed to reformat my HDD, would that wipe away the Mac section also?

Yes. Or the virus could have software to scan the bits of a drive the way a disk-recovery app does, and thus extract and steal private data from your Mac files if they are not encrypted. It could look for email addresses, for instance.


Having your Mac stuff on a separate drive only helps you if you REMOVE the drive physically when you run Windows! Otherwise the Windows virus could erase the Mac drive and the Windows drive alike. A better solution is a virtual environment like VPC, which makes the PC side think there IS no other hard disk. But such options don't exist yet. They will come.

Note that most viruses these days don't just erase drives--they hide and turn your machine into a zombie for illegal activities. That's not to say pure vandalism viruses never happens anymore: it's still a risk I wouldn't want to take!

1) No. You could get that same virus, but unless Windows could see your HFS+ partition (it can't) then there is no way for this virus to do jack to your Mac partition because as far as it knows that partition doen't exist.

Not true: Windoes DOES know your HFS partition (or drive) exists physically. It can't READ the files from it directly (without additional software, or as I say, just scanning at a low level) but it CAN re-format the drive and do massive damage.

Could this end up hurting Apple in the long run? For example, since you could run any app on Windows, would this discourage companies from making Mac versions? So in the long run Windows takes over more than it has now?

No, that won't happen See: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/2069843/

 

[cecirdr]

I'm waiting for Vmware. I'd love a virtualized environment running at nearly native speeds. It'd be compartmentalized and unable to affect the "health and safety" of my OSX partition. Plus, if it's nearly native, then it just might run most of my games which are a year or two old.

Dual boot is ok, but having another OS that's bubbled off and easy to backup/restore and keep from endangering my primary OS is "where it's at" for me.

 

[pgwalsh]

Maybe, just maybe, Apple is going to release a layer like rosetta but that allows you to run most windows programs under OSX.

Apple wants developers to port applications so they're native on OS X, so I don't see them building a layer to run windows based applications. You'll lose many of the benefits of OS X. It should be much easier for companies to port windows to X86 Mac then PPC mac, so hopefully we'll see more business and games supporting x86 Mac.

The ports from Windows to x86 Mac will most likely not be double binary for x86/PPC, but likely to be double binary WinTel/MacTel.

 

[MacTruck]

I won't be replying to anything else you post about this matter in the thread since it's way off topic.

Good because you are wrong. Now back on topic please.

 

[PtMD]

I'm waiting for Vmware. I'd love a virtualized environment running at nearly native speeds. It'd be compartmentalized and unable to affect the "health and safety" of my OSX partition. Plus, if it's nearly native, then it just might run most of my games which are a year or two old.

Dual boot is ok, but having another OS that's bubbled off and easy to backup/restore and keep from endangering my primary OS is "where it's at" for me.

Have you heard anything about when VMWare may be releasing a product to OSX as a host OS?

 

[LagunaSol]

Funny I've had one virus in the past 10 years on Windows and that was on Windows 3.11. Spyware? Nope. Adware? None.

Funny, because I've had to clean crippling spyware/adware off my mother-in-law's computer (after which she switched to a Mac mini), my uncle's computer (porn ads popping up in front of his young daughters while they did their homework? Nice!), and my brother-in-law's computer (his PC has the same specs as mine (AMD 2500+, 1G RAM) but was running like a 486/33 with 16MB of RAM due to the crap clogging his computer).

Because when you have a PC problem, call the Mac guy, right?

Sounds like you've been 1) lucky, 2) extremely vigilant, or 3) both (most likely?). Security problems are going to drive people to Apple like waves of refugees from an oppressive regime, and the ability to run Windows apps on a Mac will give them a comfortable welcome. You feed a starving man a piece of bread before you sit him down to a steak dinner.

 

[cecirdr]

Nope..no idea as to when, but it's on their agenda. The project at least has a code name. But I think everyone is watching how things develop and not making promises right now. I do know that quite a few folks at Vmware have quite a "thing" for apple's machines. So they *personally* want to do this.