More on Booting Windows on the Intel Mac?

[jrhone]

I was talking in a much more generic sense then you took my statement....

No they will support hardware failures (with in reason... they may require use of Mac OS X to prove some types of hardware failures) but they will not support software issue or driver related issues (e.g. "why can't I connect my wireless network when running Windows").

Exactly, and if they wont officially suport Windows on the Mac, there is no benefit, they can't advertise it, or use it as a selling point.....

 

[shawnce]

The fact is there is no information on running windows on an intel mac because its not possible unless someone writes an efi firmware for the mac and nobody is going to swap out their efi firmware on their mac for a hacked one. Just forget about running windows natively on an intel mac for now.

Really you will not need to use an alternate EFI implementation on an Intel Mac to get windows working. From what I can see you simply need Windows on a partition format that Apple EFI supports with that version of Windows supporting EFI boot strapping (Windows Vista for example) and of course Windows drivers for the hardware (luckily most of that is standard Intel chipset).

Apple will come around when they realize sales are slipping. The power of the dollar $$$ is the only thinkg that will change Steves mind. He could care less about the mac revolution nowadays.

You are reading Steve (and Apple) incorrectly. Yes they care about money (all companies do) but one thing that Steve (and Apple) cares about is the "solution"... and Mac OS X and Mac hardware is a critical aspect of that. Apple is wisely running with the success of the iPod but they are not ignoring the rest of the solution... I strongly believe the next two years will show this with increased relevant Mac products.

 

[Randall]

Really you will not need to use an alternate EFI implementation on an Intel Mac to get windows working. From what I can see you simply need Windows on a partition format that Apple EFI supports with that version of Windows supporting EFI boot strapping (Windows Vista for example).

You're right, but where are you gonna find a Windows Vista install disc that is GUID or HFS+ formatted? I would think that there will have to be some sort of hack that can add UDF support to the Mactel's EFI implementation. I am actually quite shocked that it doesn't support UDF out of the box... what is the OS X 10.4.4 install disc formatted in? Anybody know?

 

[MacTruck]

PostgreSQL == crap?

I would argue this point. I have been running PostgreSQL along side Oracle 10x and MSSQL for years (in a fortune 25 company), and I prefer using PostgreSQL whenever possible. More and more commercial product offerings are supporting it as a backend as well.

Next, Apache == crap?

LOL. That one is just toooo funny.

I admit php and mysql are no where near enterprise class, but come on, Apache? You do know how much of the internet (web) is running on Apache, right?

Well I won't say apache is crap but those other apps are not for enterprise. When I say that OSX has no real enterprise server architecture for web and someone comes back and starts to show me apache and Oracle for mac thats just plain dumb. You know I'm right. That argument is no different then me saying that Windows doesn't run on a mac and some wise guy coming back with "No thats a fallacy, look at Virtual PC". Now this point doesn't even need to be argued because everyone reading this that is not a home user knows damn well what I am talking about. You one or two people out there that bucked the system, begged your IT Boss to let you setup a mac as a server or snuck it in under their noses, you are an anomaly and not the norm.

 

[Randall]

Well I won't say apache is crap but those other apps are not for enterprise. When I say that OSX has no real enterprise server architecture for web and someone comes back and starts to show me apache and Oracle for mac thats just plain dumb. You know I'm right. That argument is no different then me saying that Windows doesn't run on a mac and some wise guy coming back with "No thats a fallacy, look at Virtual PC". Now this point doesn't even need to be argued because everyone reading this that is not a home user knows damn well what I am talking about. You one or two people out there that bucked the system, begged your IT Boss to let you setup a mac as a server or snuck it in under their noses, you are an anomaly and not the norm.

You guys are so far off topic at this point that it's not even funny. Let's talk about the purpose of the thread... Booting Windows on the Intel Mac.

 

[shawnce]

You're right, but where are you gonna find a Windows Vista install disc that is GUID or HFS+ formatted? I would think that there will have to be some sort of hack that can add UDF support to the Mactel's EFI implementation. I am actually quite shocked that it doesn't support UDF out of the box... what is the OS X 10.4.4 install disc formatted in? Anybody know?

So far the set of folks actually writing about attempts have limited EFI experience... so I am taking everything said with a grain of salt. Personally I think it is more of an issue of "blessing" if your will the image and having the needed EFI boot strap.

I would be more interested in the partition format of the Mac OS X install CDs that came with the Intel iMac.

 

[sebaz]

Hmmm..

From what I have gathered thus far from here:

http://nak.journalspace.com/?cmd=displaycomments&dcid=407&entryid=407

It appears that, and I quote:

As I discovered from poking around in the EFI there is no support for UDF or El Torito volumes. It seems only GPT and APM is supported.

Going with this, I stumble accross this .txt from Intel..

ftp://download.intel.com/technology/efi/docs/txt/EfiHowTo.txt

Within this txt it tells you How to Burn EFI Visible/Bootable CD-ROMs and DVDs!. One thing they use in the explanation is Nero Burning Rom, so it must be done on a PC.

Using Nero* Enterprise Edition to Burn EFI Visible/Bootable CD-ROMs
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Do the following to burn an EFI visible/bootable CD-ROM or DVD-ROM using Nero* Enterprise Edition:
1. Start Nero Enterprise Edition.
2. Close any wizard that pops up when the program started.
3. On the top menu, click File > New for a new compilation.
4. In the upper left pane of the New Compilation window, select CD-ROM or DVD-ROM.
5. In the lower left pane of the New Compilation window, select CD-ROM (EFI boot).
6. In the New Compilation window, click the Label tab. Fill in the CD-ROM volume label information and any other relevant text you want on the CD-ROM. The top pull-down should say ISO9660.
7. Click the New button in the New Compilation window, which should open a left-hand window pane with the contents of what will be burned on the CD-ROM/DVD-ROM. The right-hand pane should be the File Browser.
8. From the File Browser pane, right-click on any files/directories you want and drag them to the left-hand pane.
9. If you want the CD-ROM to be bootable, you must copy the boot file from the File Browser pane into the following directory and rename it as indicated:
10. For Itanium®-based systems: \EFI\BOOT\BOOTIA64.efi
11. For IA-32 processor-based systems: \EFI\BOOT\BOOTIA32.efi
12. After all the files have been copied to the left-hand pane, click the Burn button to burn the CD-ROM. The bottom bar will tell you how much of the CD-ROM will be used by the files that you have put into the left-hand pane or NEW FATISO1.

Where can we find this .efi files? Im guessing they are either here:

ftp://download.intel.com/technology/efi/docs/EFI_Toolkit_1.10.14.62.zip

Although I could be wrong..

Anybody willing to test it out? I'm sure if we get together can pull something out of this. I don't have an Intel Mac to test this out, so this is all in theory.

 

[maverick808]

I hope that somebody somewhere can write a driver that supports ctrl+click as a right mouse click for Windows, otherwise you will need to be getting a USB mouse to go with your new Windows partition.

Actually, I already posted on another thread that I've written an app that does exactly that. I can send it to you if you want. If anyone wants it then PM me.

 

[Randall]

I would be more interested in the partition format of the Mac OS X install CDs that came with the Intel iMac.

Right. Is that not OS X 10.4.4? Anyway, that's what I ment to ask. Anybody know?

 

[PtMD]

Well I won't say apache is crap but those other apps are not for enterprise. When I say that OSX has no real enterprise server architecture for web and someone comes back and starts to show me apache and Oracle for mac thats just plain dumb. You know I'm right. That argument is no different then me saying that Windows doesn't run on a mac and some wise guy coming back with "No thats a fallacy, look at Virtual PC". Now this point doesn't even need to be argued because everyone reading this that is not a home user knows damn well what I am talking about. You one or two people out there that bucked the system, begged your IT Boss to let you setup a mac as a server or snuck it in under their noses, you are an anomaly and not the norm.

Not to stay off topic, but I didn't comment on OSX or it's role as an enterprise platform. I was responding to you calling PostgreSQL and Apache crap. You clearly stated that and I felt you needed to be called on it.

I'm sure we can all agree that any real enterprise presence is running off of big iron from a different market costing several times that of apple hardware/software.

 

[Randall]

From what I have gathered thus far from here:

http://nak.journalspace.com/?cmd=displaycomments&dcid=407&entryid=407

It appears that, and I quote:



Going with this, I stumble accross this .txt from Intel..

ftp://download.intel.com/technology/efi/docs/txt/EfiHowTo.txt

Within this txt it tells you How to Burn EFI Visible/Bootable CD-ROMs and DVDs!. One thing they use in the explanation is Nero Burning Rom, so it must be done on a PC.



Where can we find this .efi files? Im guessing they are either here:

ftp://download.intel.com/technology/efi/docs/EFI_Toolkit_1.10.14.62.zip

Although I could be wrong..

Anybody willing to test it out? I'm sure if we get together can pull something out of this. I don't have an Intel Mac to test this out, so this is all in theory.

Could it really be that simple? I would do this but I don't have an intel mac to test it on. It's starting to sound like EFI support for Windows XP 32-bit would be a piece of cake. Assuming that the IA-32 .efi file will work.

 

[maverick808]

Well I won't say apache is crap but those other apps are not for enterprise. When I say that OSX has no real enterprise server architecture for web and someone comes back and starts to show me apache and Oracle for mac thats just plain dumb. You know I'm right. That argument is no different then me saying that Windows doesn't run on a mac and some wise guy coming back with "No thats a fallacy, look at Virtual PC". Now this point doesn't even need to be argued because everyone reading this that is not a home user knows damn well what I am talking about. You one or two people out there that bucked the system, begged your IT Boss to let you setup a mac as a server or snuck it in under their noses, you are an anomaly and not the norm.

Yawn, I already said that my main problem was when you said Windows was THE system to run servers and databases on. My argument is that Unix is far far better for both databases and web servers. I'm sorry you have failed to pick that point up despite me directly quoting it very clearly in my two previous posts.

Anyway, can't be bothered arguing with you. Unix is better than Windows for databases and web servers and that's the end of the matter. I won't be replying to anything else you post about this matter in the thread since it's way off topic.

 

[PtMD]

Right. Is that not OS X 10.4.4? Anyway, that's what I ment to ask. Anybody know?

I don't have install media to check, but with TPM my guess would be GPT format.

 

[generik]

It can't access the contents or read the files, not without HFS software, but it CAN see that the Mac partition exists, and it CAN reformat it.

Actually it can't, if you would actually run with yourself as a limited user instead of administrator. Same deal with MacOS, I can open a terminal, type su, enter my password, type rm -rf /, and ZOMG, ALL MY DATA IS GONE!

What's your point again? Don't blame the OS for user ignorance.

 

[Randall]

Actually, I already posted on another thread that I've written an app that does exactly that. I can send it to you if you want. If anyone wants it then PM me.

You should really make it publically avaliable and/or an open source project once the whole dual booting thing has been figured out. For the MacBook Pro there may even be a way to get scrolling in the touchpad working in Windows as well.

 

[mrplow]

Could it really be that simple? I would do this but I don't have an intel mac to test it on. It's starting to sound like EFI support for Windows XP 32-bit would be a piece of cake. Assuming that the IA-32 .efi file will work.

In theory, as no one has yet tested this (but I think there is a good chance re-burning VISTA on an EFI bootable disc will do the trick), you could create an XP-Install-bootable disc and initiate the installation, but the OS itself won't install anything that is EFI bootable... so I doubt it will work straight out. If Vista was burned in a manner that enabled intelmac to boot it, then it should also run once it's installed since it actually supports EFI. Also, I think someone could write a generic EFI loader-- in the sense, something that boots into FreeDos (in a manner that the EFI bootable cd can boot and launch EFI tools) and then from there auto-run a script that runs Windows XP or whatever..... there's probably a much simpler way to do this too, I just recall reading about someone who supposedly used FreeDOS to install XP on their imac (no proof offered)

 

[maverick808]

You should really make it publically avaliable and/or an open source project once the whole dual booting thing has been figured out. For the MacBook Pro there may even be a way to get scrolling in the touchpad working in Windows as well.

I'll definitely be making it public the second someone proves you can boot Windows on an Intel Mac. I also have no problem making the source available since it's such a simple app.

 

[sebaz]

Can anyone with an intel mac search their restore dvds for either of these files?
10. For Itanium®-based systems: EFIBOOTBOOTIA64.efi
11. For IA-32 processor-based systems: EFIBOOTBOOTIA32.efi

Or just .efi files..

Most likely they wil be hidden files, so you may have to search hidden files as well.

 

[mvc]

You're missing the forest for the trees.

The same person who you don't want to buy a Mac and load Windows on it, would never buy a Mac if it didn't boot windows.

The bottom line is which of these would you prefer:

a) Have someone buy a Mac and try Mac OS X alongside windows
b) Have that person not buy a Mac and instead buy a generic PC and keep using windows

arn

Arn, it's not like you to offer an OPINION!

Dangerous stuff for a God

 

[jarednt1]

UGH Why Why?

Not me you wont see me tainting my brand new iMac Core Duo with Windows.

Why take a GREAT machine like the new iMacs remove a GREAT OS for XP or Vista.

If I HAVE to use Windows I will use the Dell OptiPlex 620 thats sits next to it.

 

[maverick808]

Can you install Vista to an external firewire drive using a Windows PC? If you could do that what would happen if you then plugged that firewire drive with Vista already installed on it into an Intel Mac?

 

[iMeowbot]

This blog from Nakfull Propaganda that discusses how to get into the EFI boot menu on the new iMacs.

Yay, someone found the shell. There will be a way to boot everything very soon now

 

[balamw]

Could it really be that simple?

Looks like the instructions on making bootable EFI optical media are essentially to put a small FAT32 file system on the CD with the appropriate files in \boot, kinda similar ot how OS X uses HFS+ on optical media.

Thus, you could probably make an image on a mac using newfs_msdos and cdrecord.

My guess is that if you can use an EFI happy bootloader like GRUB that also knows how to deal with the older partition scheme, you should be able to boot off of an external drive. (unless of course GRUB used BIOS callsto do its thing.)

B

 

[asphalt-proof]

Your underestimating what an obstacle to switching the lack of computer games is. With most people I know, the only argument they can beat me in, in the pc v mac debate is the lack of mac games available plus their cost. Most if not all of them, would seriously consider buying a mac but for the lack of games.

Don't get me started on how much a mac game cost. It borders on criminal. $49 for a two year old game(pc world).

 

[Randall]

Can you install Vista to an external firewire drive using a Windows PC? If you could do that what would happen if you then plugged that firewire drive with Vista already installed on it into an Intel Mac?

Not much, because there are hardware specific drivers that get installed when you install Windows. If you tried to boot it that way, it could work, but probably wouldn't.