More on Phasing out OS 9, and Pinot (10.3)

[zimv20]

Re: Hmm... not sure I like it

Originally posted by MM2270
Maybe they should try tactics like, oh, I dunno, LOWERING the price of Jaguar, for instance. By making it nearly prohibitively expensive for the average Mac user to buy X, they are killing potential upgraders, so now they want to do this, so if you buy a New Mac you have NO CHOICE but to use OS X? Wow Apple, this is really a bad move. Someone over there needs a lobotomy!!

sorry to pick on you, MM2270, but i'm getting quite bored w/ complaints about the jaguar price tag. $120 for a full-featured unix OS is _not_ expensive.

and it's not out of reach for someone who spends $1200 (or $3400) on a computer. if you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT. and it's free if you buy a new machine.

btw, everyone who's found a pre-release copy of jaguar and has run it RAVES about it and says it's well worth the price.

i will buy it.

 

[rugby]

Here's another take on this new story. Apple has traditionally needed special enablers to make OS'es work on later machines. For example we have lots of beige G3's that came with OS 8.1 rom (some number). This is OS 8.1 with special additions to make it work with this model of computer that came out after 8.1 did. They have done this since the beginning of all their OS'es.

Now, I take this story to mean not that they will cripple the machine to not boot 9, but they just won't produce any enablers to boot 9. Put an OS 8.1 cd in a G4 and try to boot it. Same thing will happen with 9.2 and a new computer if they choose to go this route.

 

[etoiles]

Re: music machine

Originally posted by zimv20

magic question:

does anyone know what in Pinot would prevent booting os9, and what would prevent me from buying a Pinot-loaded machine, wiping the hard drive and installing os9.2?

...because apple is going to use some badass NVIDIA chipset on the new motherboards...which wont be supported by os9.2...hey there is nothing wrong with wishing really hard, is it ?

 

[Jays]

Re: music machine

Originally posted by zimv20

magic question:

does anyone know what in Pinot would prevent booting os9, and what would prevent me from buying a Pinot-loaded machine, wiping the hard drive and installing os9.2?

If I am not mistaking it said that the new powermac's wont let you boot into OS9, it will be a hardware tweek and not in the software.

I don't see it as a bad move, os9 seems OLD to me, `I don't use it at all any more, besides QuarXpress I don't mis any programs (I am using Indesign for now) and I don't play any games so no problem there. true but for people that do music until logic/Qbase are OSX ready there is aproblem, but as mentioned befor by the time OS9 boot is droped that will be fixed + if someone buys a new Pmac and it won't boot into OS9 you could still use youre older mac for OS9, so people stop Bitc*** we have the best OS out there enjoy it and support Apple, buy Jaguar!

 

[Jays]

etoiles beat me there....

 

[Rocketman]

Sure there will be updates and additions, but what is the next major concept?? [/B]

Full voice in and out.

Seamless access and virtual machines for legacy computers or OS's.

A add-in card or box with legacy peripheral support (parallel, scsi, serial, ps2) and a set of drivers that allow use of old legacy native frivers for OS7,8,9, Win 95,98,me, DOS, etc.)

support for seamless control of household, alarm, lighting, temperature, energy saving, whatever.

video media center including tivo like features, video libraries similar to the disctibuted server rings used for music.

audio same

books and mags, same

A means to digitize and organize the PHYSICAL files and OBJECTS in a person's life so if they want something they know where to find it, and if all they want is to look at it or learn about they bring up the digital record.

Social gathering softweare and servers that do what dating services do now, but for groups of people, systems of friends and form mini-collectives similar to former tribal patterns, but higher layering.

Rocketman

Look forward. Where else is there?

 

[TEG]

Thank the Maker I have an older PBG4

It is a good thing to releave OS9 of its burden, Its 18 bloody years old. My only problems are: OSX has no native joystick support (If its there, some one please tell me how to use it), Many games that are dual session (i.e. Data & Music CD) will not run correctly (For instance Warcraft II will not run from X), and with out OS9, we will have less flexability to modify our UI unless we want to worry about messing with it as root.

TEG

 

[Kelso41]

Playtime is over

I might be in the minority here, but I am starting to get annoyed with everyone who is worried about their games not running on OSX.

I probably spend way too much time with my computers both here and at home, so the idea of spending even more time with them to play games is just inconceivable to me. While dropping 20K on my systems and software over the past few years, the idea of running games never even entered my mind. If I want to play, I pull out the PS2, and kick back with some friends.

As for the OS... I fully support Apple and their desire/continued effort to move forward. In time everyone will catch up, but that does not mean apple should stop and wait for them.

 

[beulahman]

So yeah, is this pinot grigio or pinot noir?
The one thing they do have in common is that they are, generally speaking, considered the "lightest" white and red wines, respectively

 

[robbyd]

i bet that the computers will still be able to boot up in os 9 but they will make it so dumbasses couldnt figure out how to do it..

 

[wilhelmd]

Originally posted by robbyd
i bet that the computers will still be able to boot up in os 9 but they will make it so dumbasses couldnt figure out how to do it..

Maybe they'll just remove the Startup Disk prefpane? Not likely...

But anyway, I think there will be a patch or something. That Apple doesn't develop for OS 9 doesn't mean that nobody develops for OS 9.

Bob, let there be a patch.

 

[Megaquad]

I think they called it "Pinot" because of its flexibility. So,I hope we will be able to customize everything from interface to the core..

 

[rasha]

Did I miss something?

I thought Apple said OS9 development would continue with OSX for a few years. I thought there was to be a OS9.5 final release.

What happened to the support for legacy software and hardware? I thought that OS9.5 was going to be the ultimate of the old OSes with better memory managment ect...

I was really hoping on that to keep on my older machine with OS X on my new one. I have a lot of years behind the classic mac OS and plan to use some of that software I have collected over the years while I use OSX to actually be productive.

BTW, yes you are right. I still do fire up the C-64 upon occasion.

 

[zimv20]

Originally posted by wilhelmd

Maybe they'll just remove the Startup Disk prefpane? Not likely...

it is unlikely. there's still the ability to boot from different places, like over the network.

 

[digitalbiker]

Is Apple Crazy?

This doen't make sense to me! Apple probably spent millions trying to get an "UNIX" OS environment that would be backwards compatible with Mac OS 9.

All total, they have probably spent over 3 years to finaly get to a first release of the OS that sounds like it will satisfy most users (gamers, business, graphics, audio, hackers) "Jaguar".

Immediately they announce that they are abandoning the bulk of their previous userbase considering that according to Apple only about 20 percent of the user base will be booting OS X 10.2 when Jaguar is released.

Sounds crazy!

My question is; Does anyone know for sure if classic will even start without OS 9 being installed somewhere on the system?

I thought that a bootable copy of OS 9 needed to be installed in either the same partition or another partition but somewhere on the disk with OS X.

If OS 9 is not installed, will classic run?

 

[Roger1]

Netboot

If they cut support for os9, what about those who use Netboot at work? The last I heard, OSX was not Netbootable. This is one of the big things they push in the education market, in addition to MacManager. If they go this route, they are shooting themselves in the foot, at least in the education market.

 

[bousozoku]

Re: music machine

Originally posted by zimv20
i'm in that mac audio boat, too. i run proTools LE, emagic logic, and sometimes digital performer. plus all the software synths i've got.

the reality is i've got a dual g4 that runs this stuff now, and it's fine. i've had the machine for nearly two years and it'll work for many more (heck, my mid-80s Mac 512ke still boots and works -- and i can sequence on it!)

just because os9 booting goes away in future osX releases doesn't mean what i've already got running stops working. yes, the audio companies will catch up eventually, and that will likely be long before i'm ready to buy a new powermac. so no worries here.

magic question:

does anyone know what in Pinot would prevent booting os9, and what would prevent me from buying a Pinot-loaded machine, wiping the hard drive and installing os9.2?

It doesn't look to me as though there will be any changes to Mac OS X that could accomplish this. It will most likely be done in the firmware. It's also likely that the Classic environment will run for a while.

 

[neilt]

Re: Re: Hmm... not sure I like it

Originally posted by zimv20


sorry to pick on you, MM2270, but i'm getting quite bored w/ complaints about the jaguar price tag. $120 for a full-featured unix OS is _not_ expensive.

and it's not out of reach for someone who spends $1200 (or $3400) on a computer. if you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT. and it's free if you buy a new machine.

btw, everyone who's found a pre-release copy of jaguar and has run it RAVES about it and says it's well worth the price.

i will buy it.

I agree - look at this example. If you recently bought a dell with windows 2000 (2Ghz 40GB hd) you spent around 1500*. To upgrade to XP Pro will cost you 199.
The OS upgrade is going to cost you 13% of you hardware.

a similar mac will cost you 1599 with a 129 upgrade
this is 8% of you hardware.

The relation of OS to hardware is 5% cheaper on the Mac. So all those people who say they are going to switch because apple charges to much for the upgrade should look at the numbers.



* I just looked this up on Dell's website. It is a similarly configured desktop precision box.

 

[zimv20]

Re: Re: Re: Hmm... not sure I like it

Originally posted by neilt

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those that don't.

that cracks me up. then again, i'm the guy who shows people how to count to 31 on one hand. they couldn't be less interested.

 

[zimv20]

Re: Is Apple Crazy?

Originally posted by digitalbiker


Immediately they announce that they are abandoning the bulk of their previous userbase considering that according to Apple only about 20 percent of the user base will be booting OS X 10.2 when Jaguar is released.

i wouldn't say "abandoning." there's an upgrade path. fact is, most "normal" os9 software works in classic mode.

i think that a lot of the discussion in this group centers around apps that are high-powered: music apps, games, video editing. these apps, to get their power, often take advantage of lower level system calls and are harder to port.

but if you look at what most "normal" people need, it's there: email, browsing, content viewing, productivity suites, plus some lower end audio/video stuff.

iow, a lot of those 80% could switch to OSX now no problem, but it's normal apathy that's in the way.

My question is; Does anyone know for sure if classic will even start without OS 9 being installed somewhere on the system?

it will not. but that's not what pinot is about. there will be an os9, but only accessible through classic mode ('til someone hacks a way of doing it).

again, this will satisfy the needs of most people.

 

[wilhelmd]

Re: Re: Re: Hmm... not sure I like it

Originally posted by neilt


I agree - look at this example. If you recently bought a dell with windows 2000 (2Ghz 40GB hd) you spent around 1500*. To upgrade to XP Pro will cost you 199.
The OS upgrade is going to cost you 13% of you hardware.

The only problem with Dell is this:

I bought a Dell 1.7 Ghz a year ago (yes, I regret it, but I have thirteen macs at home). It came with Windows ME. Well, Windows ME is a flashy operating system, but it did not take long until it was completely ruined with bluescreens and so on. So I upgraded it to Windows 2000.

After about three months, the PC suffered a very bad hard disk drive crash. I could not boot it. Dell gave me a very cool deal when I bought the PC: If something go wrong, they will come to my house, pick the computer up, bring it to the lab, fix it, and bring it back for two years all for free! So I phoned Dell Tech-Support. But it turned out that my support-deal (wich I had payed a lot of money for but never used) was no longer valid bacuase I had upgraded the Operating System.

Me: (explains problem)
Dell: Er, I'm didn't catch you ... Did you connect it to the power socket, you said?
Me: Yes.
Dell: Ok. Then your tech-support deal is no longer valid.
Me: What the ****? I never - I - Wha - Who - What?
Dell: Oh yeah, sure, your'e going to give me the "I didn't read that part of the agreement"-bit, are you? It says so in the agreement, page sevenhundredandfiftysix, paragraph 2873.37, line two: "If you turn on your PC, then you tech support deal is no longer valid."
Me: Ok, then.

I don't see Apple doing this ...

 

[peterjhill]

Re: Netboot

Originally posted by Roger1
If they cut support for os9, what about those who use Netboot at work? The last I heard, OSX was not Netbootable. This is one of the big things they push in the education market, in addition to MacManager. If they go this route, they are shooting themselves in the foot, at least in the education market.

I just watched a live webcast today at work about Xserve and 10.2 server. Netboot is supported by 10.2, along with lots of other server goodness. If you think that 10.2 client has alot of new features, 10.2 server sounds pretty amazing.

They are certainally not shooting anything in the foot. The Xserve hardware, combined with 10.2 Server will rival Dell Linux rackmount servers in every respect.

 

[tjwett]

I hope this does not happen. I too work with pro-audio and I'm not expecting all my apps, synths and plug-ins to be ready till 2004. Plus, I hate OS X. After using it for almost a year now I've come to see that it is a slow, crashing, kernal panic-infested nighhtmare with a pretty face. Hopefully 10.2 will be better but I see X just getting in the user's way more and more. With all the silly iApps and the recent Microshaftesque corporate maneuvers I think it start to be a bit bloated and intrusive. The white Aqua interface is extremely annoying and distracting. Anyway, enough bitching. I really wish they would continue to develop OS9. They could drop the 9 and start calling it "Mac Classic" or something. Atleast it is it's own OS, not a GUI for Unix. Much like Winpuke is a GUI for DOS. I may be nuts but I'd trade all the throbbing, bouncing vector icons in the world to have some speed again. Oh well.

 

[G4scott]

Originally posted by barkmonster
If the new powermacs won't boot into OS 9 then the mac is next to useless for audio till all the plug-in, sequencer and software synth companies port all their stuff to OS X!

Actually, it's the software companies who are useless. If a software company doesn't want to make a Mac OS X version of their software, then they shouldn't make a version for the next version of windoze that comes out. Software companies still stuck in OS 9 are useless to Apple, and most consumers. Apple is trying to move forward, and without the support of developers they can't.

I think Apple's being generous by still supporting classic mode in OS X...

 

[eric_n_dfw]

This all reminds me of...

... when MS released Windows 95. They anounced right afterwords that support for MSDOS was ending. People were up-in-arms all over the place. So many legacy applications in the workplace would be orphaned, blah, blah, blah.

You've gotta cut the cord at some point. Face it, the "Classic" Mac OS is dead, long live OS X. It was nice for it's time, but it's lack of pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory are a HUGE liability. I can't imagine developing software on such a beast.