And I wonder why should I be a developer to have an opinion on this issue? Do I need to be a cook to know if the food tastes good?
As user of Flash I can also have my opinion about it.
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NBC and Time Warner Continue to Back Flash Over HTML5
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As user of Flash I can also have my opinion about it.
Flash works on a mobile device? The only Flash I've ever seen running on a mobile device crashed the device. That's why it's still just a beta.
Now, when Adobe comes out with a version of Flash that is reasonably usable on a mobile device, if Apple does not adopt it, then you can complain.
OTOH, as others have said, if Apple does not aggressively push HTML5 and Javascript over Flash, then the transition from Flash will happen much more slowly, if at all, due to the inertia that has developed with respect to these technologies. So Apple may decide never to use Flash, even if it is technically possible, much as Apple made the unthinkable move of building PCs that did not have floppy drives.
I think this is some sort of smartphone/mobile device (not just Apple) negotiating tactic, but, I don't see how it would work. Either they give away their content, or, they charge for it. But, either way, "Flash" is irrelevant -- they will use a codec like H.264 regardless. I guess they don't want people on smartphones watching their shows while sitting at the bus stop ...
Let's see now...
>> VivaLaDricas
>> Join Date: May 2010 (i.e., after Steve published "Thoughts On Flash").
Allllllrighty then...
[was that natural, or do you need to practice?]
[nonetheless, such deep concern for Apple's income is most admirable.]
[so far, it's still a tossup between disgruntled Flash developer and amateur troll.]
[how cute... here we are in a "NBC/Flash" topic, and all you want to talk about is Steve Jobs.]
As far as market share percentages go: some enjoy McDonald's... but i'll stick with burgers from Outback Steakhouse.
Welcome to the forums.
>> VivaLaDricas
>> Join Date: May 2010 (i.e., after Steve published "Thoughts On Flash").
Allllllrighty then...
For someone who claimed to not be trying, you did an excellent job there.Is there anyone at Apple, maybe the board that can strong arm Jobs if per say Adobe does get flash running really well on mobiles? I really think he should NOT be the end all be all over there. Little ridiculous. I have to wonder if him getting sick has anything to do with his recent behavior being so strange? I am not trying to be an arse, but seriously people that get sick like he did and then recover can have some odd actions.
Maybe Stone Cold Steve Austin can give Jobs a stunner!
[was that natural, or do you need to practice?]
It seems they're already being sold as fast as Apple can make them.I think he maybe lost his mind as I pointed out in my previous post. I like how they KNOW they could sell a sh** load more Ipads if it had a few more features. Top notch CEO right there.
My Macbook was dangerously close to not being purchased for lack of ports, whole form over function BS. A better CEO could double or triple the amount Apple makes currently.
[nonetheless, such deep concern for Apple's income is most admirable.]
Other members here have already pointed out how poorly informed you seem to be, so i won't repeat those specific corrections to your obvious mistakes.
[so far, it's still a tossup between disgruntled Flash developer and amateur troll.]
Actually, i doubt Steve was trying to capture the business markets back in those days. Remember? “Computers for the rest of us.” As for common sense, perhaps he just wasn't born as ruthless as Gates was... but it seems he's learned how to play hardball now, don't you think?
[how cute... here we are in a "NBC/Flash" topic, and all you want to talk about is Steve Jobs.]
Oh, you mean better than Exxon-Mobil i suppose? Here, newsflash for you.
As far as market share percentages go: some enjoy McDonald's... but i'll stick with burgers from Outback Steakhouse.
Nice. [okay, that last bit moves my guess to 19 perhaps, and considering *zero* tech talk (as well as those history mistakes), it seems we can rule out Flash developer after all.]Tendency for arrogance over there in Cupertino.
O and
Welcome to the forums.
Flash runs great under Froyo 2.2. The mobile player is fully GPU accelerated and it properly manages even the bloat. It doesn't allow anyone SWF to eat up more recourses than is available. This is especially important for those sites that like to bombard us with lots of SWFs. Flash player mobile properly idles a Flash piece when going to another page. There's also a setting under Plug-in called "On Demand." When it's enabled, Flash content only loads when allowed by the user.
Flash has yet to crash my Nexus One and yes, it's still beta. Flash Player 10.1 mobile is more than reasonable, it's outstanding. I speak from first hand experience, where as some on this site have based their opinions about Flash mobile on a video. And for reference, Flash Lite stand alone player never crashed my Nokia N70, nor did Flash 5 stand alone player crash my Sony Clié NR-70. Just throwing that out there, because Flash has been on mobile devices since 2002 and it worked.
Apple is only doing what's good for their business. It would be nice if their aggression were actually for open alternatives, but that's not the case. Flash is online video, gaming, and advertising to name a few. Everything Apple wants complete control of on their iDevices.
And this reference to the floppy drive, so one of the many talking points provided by lord Jobs is not a good comparison. When Apple moved away from the floppy drive, most of us had already adopted ZIP drives over the floppy and had been using CD-Rs for a few years. Many programs were shipping on CD. If someone really needed a floppy-drive -- like my old boss, they could buy a USB option, they still had a choice. So excluding the floppy was hardly a stretch for Apple and as noted, it was still an option for those that needed or wanted it, which is not the case for Flash on Apple's exclusive devices.
On the other hand, FLash is hardly obsolete, or on its way out like the floppy was in 99. There is still no alliterative that is even remotely as capable of doing what it can now, that works well on all platforms/browsers on both newer and older machines. It also performs way better on mobile devices than HTML 5 AJAX. And if one has need or wants access to it on an iDevice... It's not an option at all.
Awesome post as always
Talking about 'Eyes Wide Shut' with some people on this forums...
hahahaha...
Hey that's great man... but sadly, 3 years too late for the 2007 iPhone debut. BTW, you can probably thank Steve for some of the more recent amazing efforts by Adobe. [Who knows how lame Flash would be today were it not for the events of the past few months. Nothing like trying to save face to make folks get down to real work.]
Hmm. So then, it's a video which folks can see on one hand... versus taking your word for it on the other?
Fabulous... they should be a shoo-in for the coveted "No Crash" award.
Limitations and caveats when using Macromedia Flash Player for the Sony CLIÉ Series
Yeah, how strange they would prefer a real web/video standard for the entire Internet... and simultaneously not want Adobe to be the one who determines various key aspects of AppStore wares. It's almost as if Apple doesn't exist to make money for Adobe. BTW, that term you created: "open alternatives" —that was clever. [it sounds so official.
]Anyone who regards "Flash or no Flash" as some meaningful choice is missing the point completely. The fact is, we have existed for years now with that same choice (Flash or nothing), which is no choice at all. Most (like you apparently) miss that point, and probably don't care anyway... because everything "works" as is. But other folks have been getting tired of Adobe's dominance over web video (again, for the *entire* Internet) even before Steve cut the mobile cord... but none ever did anything about it.
Well now Apple has made the first move. So folks who don't understand what it's really all about will suddenly start singing the praises of Flash, and booing at Apple. They don't see the bigger picture, the history in the making. Lacking in perception and knowledge, they fill forums like this with irrelevant (if not incorrect) particulars. No matter, the events are already in motion... and all their squealing accomplishes nothing.
So that is indeed fortunate.
EDIT: attempting to remain on topic, i predict NBC will climb on board in less than a year.
What does having a choice to buy an Apple product have to do with anything? I'm talking from a developers perspective, not from the consumers point. A developer doesn't always develop for the platform they prefer to use themselves at home.
Sounds like a lame excuse to me. Microsoft thought their HTML standards were better than W3C's as well. They could argue they didn't follow the W3C standards to better serve their customers.
Again you're talking from a consumers point of view. "The consumer can't watch Flash on their iPad, the consumer has to deal with crap on a Sony laptop", blablabla... I'm talking about developers having to code twice because of Apple's restrictions. Which you said you hate, which I say is inefficient and costly.
If you're on newgrounds.com playing games, you don't even get to peak at Apple's offerings.
If you're on the app store browsing the free games, you might get hooked by a paid app/game and buy it. Impulse buys, Loss Leaders, somebody needs to brush up on their marketing lingo.
Please drop this silly argument. Free apps on the App Store serve their purpose in revenue generation, that is drawing the mass in and making sure they see the paid content. "Look Ma', Free Gamez!" "Hey Jimmy check out this one, it's wayz coolerz, only 0.99$!" If you don't understand this, why are you even commenting ? I think Hobe gets it way more than you do.
And yet they push the royalty, patent licensed encumbered H.264. Funny how open works only for competitors, not for them.
Wrong. Your MacBook would have been purchased by someone else had you not purchased it. They can't keep them on the shelves.
If more ports were really so important to you, you would've purchased some other computer. Instead, when it came down to parting with your money, you chose Apple. It's amazing how often that happens. What that means is that the lack of ports really didn't mean all that much to you when it came down to it; something else meant more.
At the end of the day, your rambling rants are meaningless.
Flash isn't a open alternative. It's closed. So I'm not sure what direction you would like to see them funnel their "aggression".
You must not have lived through those times then. Or at least it was doubtful that you were buying Apple equipment. Apple was UNIVERSALLY DERIDED for omitting the floppy disk from their computers. Both by the industry in general, and by Apple pundits. You should've heard the wails. I can still remember them now. USB based floppies were nearly non-existent at the time, and there were still lots of people whose workflow centered around having a floppy drive. Sneaker-nets were quite often the order of the day. ZIP drives were coming into use, but were hardly widely adopted. They were a lot more expensive than USB flash memory drives are today.
The wailing and gnashing of teeth is very reminiscent of the Floppy drive omission.
It isn't that Flash is obsolete, it's that it is overly heavy for viewing video. Flash is useful for all sorts of other activity, but it's just silly to have to load a plugin, ANY plugin to view video these days. The industry needs to move away from using Flash for everything just because it is there, towards a model where we are using the right tool for the job.
If you're on newgrounds.com playing games, you don't even get to peak at Apple's offerings.
If you're on the app store browsing the free games, you might get hooked by a paid app/game and buy it. Impulse buys, Loss Leaders, somebody needs to brush up on their marketing lingo.
Please drop this silly argument. Free apps on the App Store serve their purpose in revenue generation, that is drawing the mass in and making sure they see the paid content. "Look Ma', Free Gamez!" "Hey Jimmy check out this one, it's wayz coolerz, only 0.99$!" If you don't understand this, why are you even commenting ? I think Hobe gets it way more than you do.
Way to ignore half of my argument. Free apps are also available on the web using open standards.
And yet they push the royalty, patent licensed encumbered H.264. Funny how open works only for competitors, not for them.
H.264 is an open standard. It is not controlled by Apple.
The difference is you had the option to still get your floppy on your floppyless iMac/PowerMac then. Today, you have no options to get Flash running on your iPhone OS device (VNC into a remote computer is not an option, aka, Cloud Browse).
I was responding to part of your argument.
And where's all the nice HTML5 Canvas game sites ? Oh right :
http://www.canvasdemos.com/
Sure are a lot of games there.
And Canvas doesn't even run right on iPad and iPhone OS anyway : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfmbZkqORX4
HTML5 Canvas is in its enfancy. Are you seriously positionning it against Flash for games on the Web ? Seriously now, Flash is used to make very complex games today, Canvas is used for quick demos/games. It's not mature yet, partly because of lacking browser support.
Again, Flash games threaten the App Store games. Yes, even the free ones which are used as Loss Leaders for paid apps. Get over it, you didn't understand the situation properly that is all.
It's a patent encumbered, royalty barrier to entry open standard. It's not open per say, unless you pay the MPEG-LA for the privilege of using/distributing something that uses it.
It's not controlled by Apple, but it's controlled by the MPEG-LA. It's a cartel that charges "protection" money for the privilege of using their technology and that will threaten anyone else that tries to get in on their territory. IP Terrorism at its best. This is what Apple preaches. If Apple was about openess, they would be backing the royalty free solution.
I think the key word is 'future'.
HTML 5 is sooo far from being a replacement for Flash, its ridiculous. As a user, you see video embedded in a web page and its all the same to you.
If you were a content publisher with terabytes of 20 and 40 min. videos you needed to DRM-protect, transcode, catalog, and stream at efficient and reliable rates nationwide to millions of web viewers daily with full-featured, mature servers, CDNs, and players for every platform, HTML 5 does not provide that level of support for anyone yet - by a longshot.
Not to mention the copyright and licensing issues that are not even close to being worked out yet. As Leo Laporte said, MPEG-LA could slightly bump his rates legally tommorrow and he's be out of business.
That is not acceptable risk management for any business.
Some arguments are made as a whole.
And where's all the nice HTML5 Canvas game sites ? Oh right :
http://www.canvasdemos.com/
Sure are a lot of games there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfmbZkqORX4
This is why it helps to read the whole argument. I specifically pointed out that games created using open standards are something that will be coming in the future. Other apps are currently here.
Yes. Just not today. Some decisions are about the future.
Again, that is true today.
I understand your point. And you are right about this particular point. There is an economic advantage to Apple pushing free App Store games over free Flash games.
My point in my replies to Hobe was that Apple's decision to not allow the Flash Player on iPhone OS devices was not purely based on this reasoning.
You seem to be confusing open and free. It is open per se. Why should Apple back an inferior spec at all? What advantage would that be to consumers?
HTML5 is not a video codec or a streaming server or a spec for a video player. None of what you describe is part of the HTML5 specification.
No, they couldn't. They reexamine their rates every 5 years. Next chance is 2015.
So, when it becomes a problem in the future, we'll discuss it. That's another problem, the future is not now. In the future, we probably won't even have our current iPhone OS devices. Why limit our present use for something that's still years away ?
And again, Canvas isn't a threat, Flash is. Flash also permits other things, like writing a game for Android, Windows, Linux, basically anything with a compatible Flash plug-in. 95% of devices out there. That does rob Apple of exclusivity they might have had otherwise.
It's both about control and lock-in to the App store. Hobe was very right, you are still missing his point in trying to argue the finer grains. Think forest, not trees.
No, I'm confusing open and Free (with a capital F, as in Freedom) and I'm doing it on purpose. I simply think that the perversion of the word open to mean "limited to our paying customers" is not really a sign of openess at all. H.264 is open as long as you have millions to make a product with it. Industry Consortium, single company, one isn't any more open than the other.
Heck, by your logic, OOXML is Open because it got through ISO certification and was made an "open standard" by the industry. Nevermind that there's tons of strings attached and it is controlled by a single entity and that the specification isn't that good. Open is a word that doesn't mean anything anymore. Flash is open too, you can download the spec, implement it, and share the result (Gnash).
Both H.264 and Flash are closed solutions. One is controlled by a consortium that charges fees, the other is controlled by Adobe which dictates all the terms. OOXML is closed too, no matter how many ISO certifications it has.
True Open requires Freedom too.
Our present use? Flash is not presently available in a final version for any mobile device.
As far as why, you already know all the reasons, even if you choose to dismiss them.
Your are arguing with yourself. I've already acknowledged this. I believe it isn't about right now, but the future.
No, I agree with the point that control and lock-in are part of the decision. I don't agree that the decision was purely based on driving App Store revenues. It's not really that controversial a position, unless you believe the world is black and white.
Freedom is not doing whatever you want for free.
Here is a definition on an open standard from the FSFE that I agree with. Your example is not an open standard.
http://fsfe.org/projects/os/def.en.html
Flash's spec is only partially open.
And it should say something that the leading alternative implementation to Flash is three versions behind.
H.264 is an open standard. Flash is not.
More like the word of all the Nexus One owners who actually have the update now with flash versus an old video of an unfinished version of Flash and Android 2.2 that you are all holding on to as proof of failure for flash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y7XJI4NN7k&feature=player_embedded
Seems to run pretty well to me. And even that video isn't the most recent.
Flash works on mobile devices.We're starting to see that now.
I fully expect people to bite back with BUT BUT BUT THE BATTERY DRAIN now that the actual implementation has been shown to be more than usable.
More videos of Nexus One and 10.1 flash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUWo19BcC7s&feature=related << this one compares its performance with HTML5. Guess which one comes out on top :v
Floppy Disk Drives
If I remember correctly, it was Apple who first got rid of the floppy drive on their hardware. When was the last time that anyone missed a 3.5 inch 1.44 MB disk? It seems to me that the whole Flash issue is the same as the floppy versus CD/DVD of a generation ago.
If I remember correctly, it was Apple who first got rid of the floppy drive on their hardware. When was the last time that anyone missed a 3.5 inch 1.44 MB disk? It seems to me that the whole Flash issue is the same as the floppy versus CD/DVD of a generation ago.
this is like when there were a few stalwart studios saying they were sticking with HDDVD as the standard, eventually they all caved and went blueray.... flash is dying people... its a resource-hogging, old standard... you have to know when to move on...