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The sheep do not have to think just repeat his thoughts on flash all day.

Without insulting some of the posters here, I agree. You've already seen a number of people here saying "well NBC sucks anyways..." It's black and white with these people. If you buck any Apple trends, you're a moron or have no business acumen. All these execs gather at macrumors who would've thought.

That's fine, but for any one example that proves that an established technology must be forbidden or killed for another to take over, there are probably 20+ examples to the contrary. And even in this example, you can still buy serial cards and serial-connecting devices even today. I agree that USB has supplanted the old serial port, but the world (beyond Apple) didn't have to forbid the use of the serial port so that USB could take over. It just did because it was the superior solution (as voted for by wallets).

And before somebody goes there, people are NOT voting against Flash when they are buying iDevices from Apple; they're simply buying great Apple devices. Many find out later that some parts of the web are unavailable on their iDevice.

I recall the stat that there were 8 MILLION requests for a flash player from Apple iDevices in the month of December alone. That's 8 MILLION iDevice requests wanting to access something that was blocked by a corporate choice. An individual user OPTION would allow those that want to burn their batteries faster to do so, while those who abhor the idea of Flash on their iDevices could choose not to install it. There is no user lose in an OPTION, though it would be a way for 8 million requests of iDevice owners in December to get what THEY wanted.

Bravo.

Again, limitations are not a deal breaker. iDevices do all kinds of things better than their competition. This is ONE thing that some wish they would also do, but they don't. We always put up with some negatives for enough positives. For example, there is a crowd that would really like Blu Ray to replace DVD on their Macs, but not enough to trade off buying a Mac and enjoying the many other positives. Buying Macs without BD players is not a vote against BD, merely a vote for the rest of what makes Macs a preferable choice. We live with the shortcomings in exchange for other positives.

I appreciate this thoughtful approach.

Some people need to use better logic. Most if not all of these websites aren't SWITCHING over but offering multiple ways to view their site. That's not a switch. That's adding.

I'm not going to argue that the recent surge in interest in HTML5 is because of Apple. But let's not confuse interest in the platform with abandoning flash. Most of these companies haven't abandoned flash. And they won't for some time. They will continue to offer their content in the latest and greatest formats to reach the LARGEST audience.

For example - a company sees that 95 percent (fact out of the air) of people have flash. 5 % (another FOA) can't view flash. They are offering their sites to 100 % of the viewers if they use both formats + any other new format that has a large install base.

Fact is - the 95 percent who view their sites are not viewing them in browsers that support HTML5. Who knows what that percentage is at the moment. But it's not 95 percent in the slightest.

Am I crazy, or can't you watch NBC etc. etc. through iTunes on the iDevices? Isn't it in the interest of NBC, Time Warner, and Apple to get you to watch it that way—by paying?

According to this board, only apple knows how to make money and everyone else knows less than them

So, when it becomes a problem in the future, we'll discuss it. That's another problem, the future is not now. In the future, we probably won't even have our current iPhone OS devices. Why limit our present use for something that's still years away ?

And again, Canvas isn't a threat, Flash is. Flash also permits other things, like writing a game for Android, Windows, Linux, basically anything with a compatible Flash plug-in. 95% of devices out there. That does rob Apple of exclusivity they might have had otherwise.

It's both about control and lock-in to the App store. Hobe was very right, you are still missing his point in trying to argue the finer grains. Think forest, not trees.

Both H.264 and Flash are closed solutions. One is controlled by a consortium that charges fees, the other is controlled by Adobe which dictates all the terms. OOXML is closed too, no matter how many ISO certifications it has.

True Open requires Freedom too.

If Apple can let people decide whether they want to switch off 3G, the same can certainly can be done with Flash
 
Let's see now...
>> VivaLaDricas
>> Join Date: May 2010 (i.e., after Steve published "Thoughts On Flash").

Allllllrighty then...


For someone who claimed to not be trying, you did an excellent job there.

[was that natural, or do you need to practice?]
Trying for what?


It seems they're already being sold as fast as Apple can make them.

[nonetheless, such deep concern for Apple's income is most admirable.]
I can't argue with the sales of them. I probably will pick one up for X-mas if I got the extra cash. Still feel they could have added a little more. Form over functionality thing. If you dont see Apple does that then you sir are a fanboy/girl.

Other members here have already pointed out how poorly informed you seem to be, so i won't repeat those specific corrections to your obvious mistakes.

[so far, it's still a tossup between disgruntled Flash developer and amateur troll.]
Troll BS as usual. Just call me a f*** or a something else its better. I wouldnt say poorly informed, I may be off on my dates but I'm not super nerd.

Actually, i doubt Steve was trying to capture the business markets back in those days. Remember? “Computers for the rest of us.” As for common sense, perhaps he just wasn't born as ruthless as Gates was... but it seems he's learned how to play hardball now, don't you think?

[how cute... here we are in a "NBC/Flash" topic, and all you want to talk about is Steve Jobs.]
I am sure he wanted those markets back then. Not even a question. And the flash thing goes hand and hand with Jobs with the recent actions and ope letters etc.

Oh, you mean better than Exxon-Mobil i suppose? Here, newsflash for you.

As far as market share percentages go: some enjoy McDonald's... but i'll stick with burgers from Outback Steakhouse.
Won't argue the massive success they enjoy. I congratulate everyone at Apple for what they have accomplished. Point still stands IMO that they shouldn't be so stingy about APP approval, and features on their products; it could bite them hard later down the road.

Outback is awesome :) I agree with your analogy there.


Nice. [okay, that last bit moves my guess to 19 perhaps, and considering *zero* tech talk (as well as those history mistakes), it seems we can rule out Flash developer after all.]

Welcome to the forums. ;)
Not sure where you get flash developer. I was just stating I think it would be better as of now if it was optional or had that possibility in the future. I dont see it going away for a few more years. It is a here and now world. I understand open web standards and agree with Jobs there, I think he and Adobe could be going about it in a better way. It is a 2 way street.

And thanks for the welcome its lovely to be here.
 
Wrong. Your MacBook would have been purchased by someone else had you not purchased it. They can't keep them on the shelves.

If more ports were really so important to you, you would've purchased some other computer. Instead, when it came down to parting with your money, you chose Apple. It's amazing how often that happens. What that means is that the lack of ports really didn't mean all that much to you when it came down to it; something else meant more.

At the end of the day, your rambling rants are meaningless.

At the end of the day 98% of forum posts are meaningless. Its discussion no reason to throw rudeness in there. Although I was like that to another poster recently.

Yes I did go with the Macbook since the ports I wanted have work arounds that aren't too taxing on me to do. Personally for the premium price I think an expresscard slot is a really useful feature. If not on the Macbook then perhaps the pro, but that didnt have it so I got the Macbook to save a couple bucks. I just think it would be a nice thing to get a bit more on their lappies. I know the high end MBP has it, but I cant spend that much on a laptop. :( Darnit!

It's not a big deal though, my next purchase probably will be an IMAC. Kind of waiting for USB 3.0 first though.
 
Don't you think that there is a possibility that their success has something to do with the fact that they have ignored a lot of what customers have asked for? Queue Henry Ford quote.
You are saying the possibility of their success is ignoring their customers? Unless you mistyped it, I am reading that. Don't know the Henry Ford quote. Sorry.


You have no idea what you are talking about. Jobs left the company in 1985, before Windows 1.0 was even released! He had absolutely nothing to do with Apple losing to MS in the OS wars.

My dates are off I admit that, I seriously thought he was there until 93-94 for some reason.


By ignoring the things that have gotten them where the are?
No, I just have an opinion on things I would like to see. I use Apple sh** and will continue to do so for quite some time.


Pot calling the kettle black.
kettle black? You racist:p
 
yeah, just like when they dropped floppy drive support :rolleyes:

Big difference here man. Back then, the floppy was done with. No one was using it. A lot of people switched to Zip Drives, and CDRW. The floppy was ready to go, Apple was just the first, whoopeeee. Flash isn't ready to go yet.

Some of you apple fan's are freaks. I can't believe some of the posts I read.
 
Well, I guess that means for every million new iPhones/iPads/iPod Touches sold, that a million less people going to visit their sites. Thats:

42.5 milliion iPhones (2009)
32.5 million iPod Touches (2009)
1 million iPads in 28 days and counting with European release tomorrow...

(Please excuse me if these figures aren't super accurate, I only did a quick search, but it makes a point).

Hmmm, that's a lot of people to be cutting out of your market.

Oh well, I guess they'll change when they feel they have to.

Zaphodz

The only point you have proven is that they are right in not worrying about their content on the iPad or iPhone.

First off, there are currently 1,802,330,457 approx people using the internet. That is 1.8 billion people. Your estimates state that there are about 76,000,000 people using an iPhone (76 million), iTouch or iPad (not taking into account the amount of people that have switched or stop using their devices, or the amount that have been broken).

So, thats 1,802,330,457 total users, and 76,000,000 potential iDevice users. You know how much iDevice users account for? A whopping 4 percent total AT BEST. I know a lot of people switching to Droid with flash being one of their reasons (amongst others). So, how many millions out of that 76 million are still around today? Id guess less than 70 to start, could be less even.

I use an iPhone 3GS, and I am interested in an iPad. I dislike that there is no flash, but I use flash ALL the time on my PC and notebook (win7). How many other iDevice users like me aren't missing out on much? So get over yourself. I highly doubt many users of an iDevice count on it for their only way of using the internet.

While we are on the subject of flash, its not everyone elses fault that your mac runs flash poorly. Afterall, apple wouldn't allow hardware acceleration for it until just recently. Even then, its not on all Mac's cause apparently compatibility isn't a "mac thing".
 

Good read on the link you provided. I do agree with a lot said there, it is common sense. My opinion is still strong that they make some odd decisions. Firewire a little while back for example. Agree to disagree.

Awesome quote by Ford, Honestly never heard that. Smart man.

I know the pot calling kettle black expression, I just like to call it racist.
 
Originally Posted by BaldiMac
Don't you think that there is a possibility that their success has something to do with the fact that they have ignored a lot of what customers have asked for? Queue Henry Ford quote.

You are saying the possibility of their success is ignoring their customers? Unless you mistyped it, I am reading that. Don't know the Henry Ford quote. Sorry.

Oh, I thought you meant this quote from Henry Ford:

“People can have the Model T in any color - so long as it's black”

Henry Ford

We all know how that turned out - perhaps Job's stance on Flash will be as fleeting as Ford's.
 
You've got to be kidding! Apple's customer base knows this and, here's the interesting bit, they don't care.

Wow! I'm so glad you know WTF Apple's ENTIRE FRAKING CUSTOMER BASE "doesn't care". I guess I and many others on here are not part of that customer base despite owning numerous Apple products because WE DO CARE.

If they did, do you really think that Apple would be the number 2 market cap company?

I think only extremely ignorant individuals take one statistic and use that as a basis for every single motive and opinion and buying decision a person can POSSIBLY HAVE. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

But then again, I've seen that same argument (i.e. Apple makes lots of money so they're ALWAYS RIGHT about *EVERTHING* from many a DROID and FANBOY around here. It's like freaking clockwork. We might as well have Steve Jobs on here telling everyone how wrong they are because he's rich. :rolleyes:

It's even entirely possible they will make number 1, and that just proves Flash isn't so important, especially when you consider that sites are moving away from Flash to support these non-Flash viewing devices.

How the FRAK does a market position equate to "proving" that Flash isn't important?!?!? Do you even KNOW what science is or how things are proven?

I don't for a moment think that anyone can just walk away from that, but I do believe *the consumer* (above any other argument about Apple vs. Adobe vs. Google vs. whoever you are brainwashed to be arguing for) is the one who wins when proprietary standards are eliminated from the web.

LOL. *I'm* brainwashed for having an opinion that it would be nice to have Flash on my mobile Apple devices so that I'm not locked out of a boat load of web sites??? WTF are you smoking and where can I get some??? :eek:

I think he maybe lost his mind as I pointed out in my previous post. I like how they KNOW they could sell a sh** load more Ipads if it had a few more features. Top notch CEO right there. :rolleyes:

My Macbook was dangerously close to not being purchased for lack of ports, whole form over function BS. A better CEO could double or triple the amount Apple makes currently.

No, that's simply not possible according to the real geniuses on here! Because Apple is making profits, they couldn't POSSIBLY do ANYTHING better! :rolleyes:

You have to remember, the iPad and the iPhone run basically the same OS. If they wanted to somehow optimize the iPad to make it run smoothly they would have to separate that from the iPhone's codebase and write things basically twice.

Although, come to think of it, they seem to think that's not a big deal when destroying any sort of cross platform ability for the developers that make their products worth while so I guess they'd be all for that.

Disclaimer: Sarcasm. Mostly. Well, there is some at least.

Am I living on another planet or universe all the sudden? WTF kind of logic is this!? The WHOLE POINT I made is that the iPad has a faster CPU in it so therefore it would run Flash better than early generation iPhones/iPod Touches. Somehow in this Bizarro World I suddenly seem to be living in, they must optimize the iPad to get it to function (better?) and because it happens to run OSX, they'd have to write a SPECIAL version of OSX and/or Flash to make any specific changes just for the iPad..... Darn, I thought faster = smoother was a pretty straight forward point, but I guess not.
 
Flash works on a mobile device? The only Flash I've ever seen running on a mobile device crashed the device. That's why it's still just a beta.

Now, when Adobe comes out with a version of Flash that is reasonably usable on a mobile device, if Apple does not adopt it, then you can complain.

OTOH, as others have said, if Apple does not aggressively push HTML5 and Javascript over Flash, then the transition from Flash will happen much more slowly, if at all, due to the inertia that has developed with respect to these technologies. So Apple may decide never to use Flash, even if it is technically possible, much as Apple made the unthinkable move of building PCs that did not have floppy drives.

I don't know how well flash will run on android 2.2, but it's a start... BTW, In my original quote I never mentioned anything about flash working on a mobile device. I know it's in Beta on android, and as with all beta's, the kinks usually get worked out...
 
"As long as it works." That's the whole point of Jobs' issue with Flash. When you've restarted your crashed Android for the nth time you will start to care from a user standpoint. When you start bemoaning how often you have to charge "little Droidie", you will start to care from a user standpoint.



Some people, like Pinocchio, have to learn through experience that some boundaries are set for a reason.



The smart money, Apple and Microsoft, see that as a bad plan for the overall user experience. Perhaps, since you are used to jailbreaking your iPhone, you are not the kind of customer that minds performance issues.



I have to laugh at that. You might want to upgrade whatever OS your phone came out the factory with, but don't count on that happening unless you buy an iPhone. You might want to run the latest and greatest Android app, but that one doesn't work on your flavor of Android phone. Welcome to a whole new set of limitations.



Hehehe...and 'change' you will get. Let me be the first to welcome you back to an iPhone.



If "a phone is just a phone," what the heck have you just been complaining about???

Nice counter-point! - but unfortunately I'm bored with the iphone for now... Maybe next year, or maybe something else from Microsoft...lol I hear Dell has something coming out too! Can I buy you a round?:)
 
Flash isn't a open alternative. It's closed. So I'm not sure what direction you would like to see them funnel their "aggression".

Let's put what I said in context. :)

MacinDoc's said this;
"if Apple does not aggressively push HTML5 and Javascript over Flash, then the transition from Flash will happen much more slowly"

I said this;
"Apple is only doing what's good for their business. It would be nice if their aggression were actually for open alternatives, but that's not the case. Flash is online video, gaming, and advertising to name a few. Everything Apple wants complete control of on their iDevices."

You must not have lived through those times then. Or at least it was doubtful that you were buying Apple equipment. Apple was UNIVERSALLY DERIDED for omitting the floppy disk from their computers. Both by the industry in general, and by Apple pundits. You should've heard the wails. I can still remember them now. USB based floppies were nearly non-existent at the time, and there were still lots of people whose workflow centered around having a floppy drive. Sneaker-nets were quite often the order of the day. ZIP drives were coming into use, but were hardly widely adopted. They were a lot more expensive than USB flash memory drives are today.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth is very reminiscent of the Floppy drive omission.

I recall some ruckuses about Apple dropping Floppy drives, but nothing like what you're referring to.

I'm almost 40 btw, so old enough to remember the seventies and things like using a tape to read and write data.

I used ZIP drives regularly back in 96. I even had a Jazz drive. The game company I worked for sold most of their titles on CD-ROM at that time, most software was moving to CD, because it was a cheaper means of delivery.

And on the pricing of ZIP drives, they were affordable, especially when compared the price of hard drives and alternatives like the Syquest drives at the time. The price for a 100 megs was a good deal. I didn't make much money early on in my career and I could afford ZIP discs and the drives.

For reference. I bought my first CD rom in 1993 or it was 94, I bought my first CD burner back in 95. My first CDR-W in 97. My Beige G3 333 had an internal in Zip Drive, as did the various Macs I was provided at the marketing company I worked for starting in 98. These formats overall were superior to the floppy disc and available for years prior to Apple dropping the floppy drive.

Regardless, omitting the Floppy drive is not the same as dropping Flash. Floppy discs were not a threat to Apple's business plan. They were truly out dated and really only useful for delivering files like small drivers or patches -- which the internet remedied. We still had the option to use them on our Macs, this is not the case with Flash on Apple's exclusive devices. They don't want you or I to use Flash on their iDevices, because it would be a means to bypass their ecosystem, their control.

It isn't that Flash is obsolete, it's that it is overly heavy for viewing video. Flash is useful for all sorts of other activity, but it's just silly to have to load a plugin, ANY plugin to view video these days. The industry needs to move away from using Flash for everything just because it is there, towards a model where we are using the right tool for the job.

The primary reason reason why Flash has been so heavy for video playback on the "Mac" when compared to Quicktime as an example, is "Apple."

Apple withheld the API required to access the GPU for hardware decoding from Adobe. For HD video this is absolutely necessary. My DP G5 2.5Ghz required almost all of both procs to playback 1080p at 24 fps. When Apple first introduced H.264 support for Quicktime, it did not support the GPU. Why doesn't anyone else recall this? Quicktime has't always been so GPU happy. It's why the first generation Intels were shown to use way less CPU than the iMac G5s, as they could offload video to the newer ATI GPU, something the iMac could not do.

Anyways, now that Adobe has access to the API, there's Flash Player Gala, which was released less then a week after Apple made the API available. It offers a HUGE improvement for properly encoded h.264 content given the Mac has one of Apple's 3 supported GPUs and is running 10.6.3 or later. OK, this is related, but why has Apple limited support to only 3 GPUs, when every single Intel Mac shipped supports hardware decoding via the GPU for h.264? Why don't they allow support under even 10.5? I'm asking this, because it baffles me, it doesn't make any sense.

On the PC, Flash has had hardware decoding since 2008 and it supports a wide variety of GPUs, even under older OSs... Go figure. Ge, I'm glad my Unibody 17" is supported by Apple, but it sucks that they completely dropped support for my Aluminum 17". Yes I'm bitter about this.

There are of course examples of bloat created by inexperience, but it's a small part compared to not having access to the GPU on the Mac side.

Now for video playback via a plug-in being silly, not really. Flash is still really the only way to deliver video to a wide range of devices. It works on a much wider range of machines and browser than any other means. The HTML 5 video tag on the other hand is quite limited in its penetration and is at the mercy of the browser. It only supports a few of them at the moment and doesn't work well on older machines. There's also still no clear winner on which video format to use, so what works fine in FireFox via the video tag, doesn't work on an iPad. Or what works in Safari or Chrome, doesn't work in FireFox and so on. A plug-in is really the only way to guarantee consistency and with Flash being a standard, it's been the best choice. Quicktime on the PC is a plug-in btw and a bloated one at that. It's a plug-in for Chrome and FireFox on the Mac. If not for plug-ins, we couldn't watch WMVs on our Mac via Flip4Mac -- Which for reference is owned by Microsoft.

I completely agree on what you say about using right tool. It's why Flash became so popular. Back with player 7, when video was a bit more mature on it, it offered my clients a means to view a video in the browser, then by request I always added an option to download a higher quality Quicktime or WMV. This eventually changed, because Flash's quality improved, especially when Adobe added support for h.264 2 years back. Anyways, lots of rambles.
 
We all know how that turned out - perhaps Job's stance on Flash will be as fleeting as Ford's.
:rolleyes: As long as you're going to indulge in pure fantasy, why not get a little more creative?

Let me try... okay, um: perhaps the MPEG-LA will drop all licensing fees on h.264 next week.

--

Once again I'll point out to folks that: it's not only Apple who dislikes the pervasive presence of Flash on the Internet. So those who continue to perpetuate that myth are also indulging in fantasy.
 
There's also still no clear winner on which video format to use, so what works fine in FireFox via the video tag, doesn't work on an iPad. Or what works in Safari or Chrome, doesn't work in FireFox and so on.

While you're dropping the name 'Firefox' there, why not mention how much Mozilla loves Flash?

CNet News said:

An annoying and long-lived bug is preventing some users from viewing Web videos. There's a workaround, but for many, the cure is as bad as the disease.

The bug is that Flash videos don't play for certain Firefox 3 users on Windows XP or Vista, when using the current Flash player version 9. On YouTube, CNET TV, and other sites, embedded videos will start, but they halt after two seconds. Both Mozilla and Adobe have been aware of the issue since late May, but as yet no solution has been found. For some people suffering from this bug, it's intermittent. For others, it's a consistent block to viewing online videos.

One workaround solution is to install the Flash 10 player, which is still in beta. Unfortunately, many Flash video sites don't recognize that Flash 10 is a valid and current player. CNN, for example, thinks Flash 10 beta is older than Flash 8, asks users to upgrade to Flash 9, and thus won't play at all.

Since the bug is serious and has been known for some time, I called both Mozilla and Adobe to see what's going on. I spoke first with Mike Beltzner, Mozilla's "phenomenologist," aka head of user experience. He pointed me to the record in Bugzilla where they're tracking the issue and gave me some of the issues they think are responsible for this one. In a nutshell, Mozilla thinks there's a miscommunication between plug-in and browser but doesn't know which product is the culprit.

He also took a minute to trumpet Mozilla's open-source philosophy. Since Firefox's code is open, Adobe can look at it to try to determine what is going on. But Mozilla's team can't look into Flash. Beltzner didn't blame Adobe for the bug itself, but he did say that Adobe's traditional closed software architecture is slowing down their investigation. "We hit a wall when it's a closed-source solution," he said.

An Adobe spokesperson, who asked not to be named, said Adobe is looking into the issue but isn't yet sure if the problem is isolated to Firefox 3 and Flash 9, or if there is a third culprit--another plug-in, perhaps--that is throwing things off for the Flash player.​


Now, flash forward 2 years...

Ars Technica said:

Adobe CTO Kevin Lynch claims that the company's ubiquitous Flash plug-in doesn't ship with any known crash bugs. One can only assume that he has never used the software. As Adobe representatives exhibit an increasingly dismissive attitude about Flash's technical deficiencies, the browser vendors have stepped up to address the problems and are finding ways to insulate their users from Flash's poor security and lack of stability.

Several mainstream browsers isolate Flash and other plug-ins in separate processes in order to prevent an unstable plug-in from crashing the entire browser. Mozilla is preparing to introduce a similar feature in the next version of Firefox. A developer preview that was recently made available to users offers an early look at the new plugin crash protection.​


The Register said:

Unlike Google, Mozilla says it's not committed to the idea of integrating Adobe Flash with its web browser. "Mozilla has no current plans to bundle Flash with Firefox downloads," the open source outfit said in an email to The Reg. "Mozilla has always made it easy to install Flash and other plugins via the Automatic Plugin Finder Service, which has been part of Firefox for years."


I could easily find more examples.

Face it: companies such as Mozilla and Opera merely tolerate Flash, because it's so ubiquitous... a necessary evil. Not some beloved "standard" which offers the perfect pie-in-the-sky experience you constantly portray.

BTW JackAxe, why not stick this in your sig?
 
this is like when there were a few stalwart studios saying they were sticking with HDDVD as the standard, eventually they all caved and went blueray.... flash is dying people... its a resource-hogging, old standard... you have to know when to move on...

You people gotta come up with better analogies. HDDVD v Blu-ray was about 2 completely new formats competing against each other for the standard. This is more like VHS v DVD, or DVD v Blu-ray. The old standard vs. the incoming one.

Notice how people didn't stop producing or buying DVD's even after Blu-ray won the format war. And neither did/will people stop using flash, despite your claims that HTML5 is "the future".

Fail analogies show how very little you understand the situation.
Face it: companies such as Mozilla and Opera merely tolerate Flash,
That's not what that quote says at all. It seems to me that it's saying they want to give the option to consumers, and have made it easy to install Flash if the end-user desires. Which is all people want. The choice, as opposed to the choice being made for them.
 
That's not what that quote says at all. It seems to me that it's saying they want to give the option to consumers, and have made it easy to install Flash if the end-user desires. Which is all people want. The choice, as opposed to the choice being made for them.
Ha! Choice. :)

They (mozilla) literally have no choice themselves but to give their customers that "choice". If they tried to exercise the presence of mind and strong will which Apple is demonstrating, they'd be dead in the water (as a browser of choice). Their pulling it out and forcing customers to add it back in speaks something quite different than that cherry-picked spin you chose to hear.
 
The difference is you had the option to still get your floppy on your floppyless iMac/PowerMac then. Today, you have no options to get Flash running on your iPhone OS device (VNC into a remote computer is not an option, aka, Cloud Browse).

We should be thankful to have the option of buying a non-Apple phone then.
 
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