New All-in-One Mac for Education?

[macgeek2005]

First and foremost, I think that "Intel isn't making Yonahs anymore" won't be a factor.

Second, I've said repeatedly that Apple should kill Yonah as soon as possible and go to an all 64-bit lineup.

Third, in the end it will be marketing and market segmentation - Apple might decide to cripple the low end with 32-bit CPUs long after the mainstream goes 64-bit.

You can't apply logic to marketing decisions....

Now I understand why apple hasn't made Mac Pro's yet. They need to wait for 64 Bit, since the G5 was 64 bit, they can't go backwards, and they were originally planning to switch to intel just in time for that, and they started too early, and had to put up with Yonah.

 

[sushi]

Third, in the end it will be marketing and market segmentation - Apple might decide to cripple the low end with 32-bit CPUs long after the mainstream goes 64-bit.

I beg to differ.

A 32 bit CPU will still work fine for most applications.

While I understand your point, I wouldn't call it crippled -- PC or Mac.

 

[darrens]

Here's my prediction:

17" iMac becomes the eMac. We get a new iMac redesign. Solves all your problems.

I'm with the others - the iMac is a miniturised computer that has a lot of expensive componentry. It's not likely to become the next eMac without some serious cost reduction.

Look at the original eMac - it uses components that are all at least a generation old, with no attempt to miniturise. It was basically an original form factor iMac with a bigger screen and no pretty case colours!

I'd expect to see a really basic 4x3 LCD on a machine that isn't as thin as the iMac.

 

[AidenShaw]

crippled in time....

I beg to differ.

A 32 bit CPU will still work fine for most applications.

While I understand your point, I wouldn't call it crippled -- PC or Mac.

It will be fine until Apple releases OSx64 - the true 64-bit version of OSX.

After that release, however, there will be software that won't run as well on Yonah, or won't run at all.

Technically, a Performa with a 601 isn't crippled either....

 

[BenRoethig]

Personally, I would have just released two low end iMacs with the same specs as the Mac Mini.

 

[GilGrissom]

Just checked out their site.

Their RM One (All in One) starts with a Celeron, 256MB RAM, 40GB HD, 15 inch LCD (17 inch option) and no optical drive.

Their RM Ascend PC starts with a Celeron, 256MB RAM, 40GB HD, 17 inch CRT and no optical drive.

Most interesting.

It is. Not including optical drives was something I've always wanted Apple to do as an option on their education machines. A lot of schools would prefer plenty of front USB ports, headphone sockets and other front controls/sockets like that. When you look at the design of the RM One, to be honest it has had thought put into it and apart from their early fan trouble they are good education machines. Sometimes the screen seems a little high, especially for little kids, but its a good designed machine in my opinion. My old college I used to work for brought several labs full of them.

I doubt they'll leave out Front Row/iSight. They're pushing Front Row on the Edu site and iSight is good for (obviously ) video conferencing, something that my school is really excited about with the new MacBooks.

I see your point. Video conferencing has been pushed in my LEA for the past year or two, with the rollout of broadband across schools it seems to have gone hand in hand. That doesn't mean it's caught on yet, but its still being pushed definately.

matticus008 raised a good point on this though...a machine with iSight/FrontRow etc could be just the iMac.

And it is! It's an iMac. Schools should also have the option NOT to have those features or be required to pay for them. Right now the 9 out of 10 don't have that choice.

Yes, but in my experience there is a lot of schools which have it more the other way round still. Sometimes they want things and cannot get them without having something else (i.e.: iMac just to get the iSight etc). Maybe the iMac is still too much of a jump upwards just to get an iSight in a cheap eMac. Maybe having the iSight as an option on an eMac is even more expensive (case design?...covering the hole left?) but then again there are lots of PCs out there which have "holes" or sockets for certain items which are only there on the top of the range models, in the lower models the sockets are noticable, but the plastic just hasn't been punched out, or a little stopper has been put in it's place. Acer are big at doing this on their TravelMate laptops used in schools. S-Video, FireWire, sometimes PC Card slots are all blocked in, but still there and noticable...so maybe Apple making the iSight and Front Row an option isn't too hard and expensive after all and well worth it.

It's tricky. If Apple are going to redo an eMac then obviously the marketing will be mainly that product at the market. The iMac may not be marketed as much to the market once the eMac comes out, then again it might be. But something tells me Apple will keep it simple with one main product at a time in a marketing scheme, so the eMac has to be seen to be offering everything (or as much as they think they need) a school needs otherwise it might get too complicated or the eMac appeal may get diluted. I dunno...just a worry I have in the back of my mind, knowing how a lot of machines are advertised to schools and how schools interpret them. It's not always logical how schools think and see things, and it depends on how prepared the school themselves are willing to do things on their own and get a product that their LEA may not fully recommend or support (a big part).

Apple have to get all aspects sorted on this product. Get to the schools, get to the LEA offices, tackle it from all aspects, sell it how it needs to be sold to the different areas that are involved in educational institutions these days. I know my LEA has problems a lot of the time in finding that balance between acting like a business to the outside world and being taken seriously and then switching back to providing good education products and services to its schools in that unique and hard to do manner at times.

Anyhoo...'ll leave it to Apple to stand back from the situation and come up with a good product like they always do.

 

[sushi]

I have a Logitec (not Logitech) 15 inch LCD monitor.

I always thought that it's form factor would be a great eMac replacement.

It's sort of like the iMac, but all plastic. It has a more normal looking stand vice the metal one for the iMac. And the stand is detachable which makes for a small package for shipping.

For the eMac, I would have USB, FW, and audio in/out ports at the front of the stand. Also, I really like the forward facing speakers as well. Simple solid design. Would be great for the classroom.

I would equip it with:
40GB HD
512MB RAM
On board Intel Graphics chip set
No optical drive
USB/FW ports
No iSight

Cost could easily be in the $600-700 range.

 

[sushi]

It will be fine until Apple releases OSx64 - the true 64-bit version of OSX.

After that release, however, there will be software that won't run as well on Yonah, or won't run at all.

Technically, a Performa with a 601 isn't crippled either....

Fair enough.

BTW, nothing against 64 bit chips. But right now 32 ones seem to work just fine. Plus they are a whole lot cheaper!

 

[sam10685]

Maybe they'll bring back the form factor of the iMac G4, sticking an intel chip inside? That was a sweet design.

dad's getting an iMac G4... i'm jealous.

I have a Logitec (not Logitech) 15 inch LCD monitor.

I always thought that it's form factor would be a great eMac replacement.

It's sort of like the iMac, but all plastic. It has a more normal looking stand vice the metal one for the iMac. And the stand is detachable which makes for a small package for shipping.

For the eMac, I would have USB, FW, and audio in/out ports at the front of the stand. Also, I really like the forward facing speakers as well. Simple solid design. Would be great for the classroom.

I would equip it with:
40GB HD
512MB RAM
On board Intel Graphics chip set
No optical drive
USB/FW ports
No iSight

Cost could easily be in the $600-700 range.

i like the like the little blue light disk thing from the Nintendo Wii.

 

[sam10685]

Except price. Unless they can take a $500-600 (~40-46%!) hit on the current iMac's price, it's not a good option.

i can easily see them taking that much off the price of a 17" imac. the current specs on the 17'' one are getting out dated. (they might shirk the HDD capacity though.)

 

[Caitlyn]

Surprisingly, I'm actually liking www.engadget.com's mockup.

I think those would sell pretty nicely given that the specs were fair.

 

[iowamensan]

Sadly, the release date is too late. I am the tech coordinator for a k-12 school, and am getting ready to order for next year. By the estimated Sept. release date, school will have already started. I am about to place my order for about 80 eMacs in about a week. and the $799 price point others have mentioned had also better have the 8-pack option they have now. 8 for 5,000 comes to $625 each. A very nice price.

 

[AidenShaw]

64-bit same price

But right now 32[-bit] ones seem to work just fine. Plus they are a whole lot cheaper [than 64-bit chips]!

The prices are pretty constant - note that 64-bit Merom is coming in at the same price points that Yonah was introduced at - even though Merom is higher frequency and much faster.

Even Celerons can be 64-bit today.

Older and slower chips can be cheaper - even when they're 64-bit. So, although you're right that Yonah will be cheaper - it's really just age and speed that causes the Yonah discounts. Any implication that "64-bit is expensive" isn't justified (whether such an implication was intended or not).

 

[lazyrighteye]

I'm already helping a school plan their next computer purchases, to replace the Macs in our computer lab, and the PC-vs.-Mac and price/performance debates are back in our planning committee for their annual visits.

Knowing that Apple will introduce new up-to-date Macs, if this rumor is true, will make a positive difference in promoting the Mac option. It would help if we knew the price too.

And don't forget the "Macs can/will now boot Windows" angle.
That, in my mind, totally destroys any "pro PC" side to the now moot PC/Mac debate.

 

[Doctor Q]

And don't forget the "Macs can/will now boot Windows" angle.
That, in my mind, totally destroys any "pro PC" side to the now moot PC/Mac debate.

Students in our classrooms aren't going to restart the computer each time they want to switch applications. We don't have some classes that would use Windows and some that would use Mac OS X. We don't have lessons where some students would use Mac OS X and some Windows. These options would just make more work for the teachers.

So if we're going to use Windows apps, we don't need Macs at all. Perhaps buying Macs for Windows-based lessons in case we later decide to switch to a Mac OS X-based curriculum would be an advantage, but that isn't a very impressive argument.

I can sometimes sell them on Macs and Mac apps, but some teachers insist on using Windows because that's all they know. I'll bring up the Windows-on-Mac point now and then, but so far it's been moot. I'm only speaking for our school.

 

[matticus008]

Yes, but in my experience there is a lot of schools which have it more the other way round still. Sometimes they want things and cannot get them without having something else (i.e.: iMac just to get the iSight etc). Maybe the iMac is still too much of a jump upwards just to get an iSight in a cheap eMac.

Very true, and interesting that a school would be interested in an iSight camera. I hadn't considered that schools might have found a practical use for one-on-one videoconferencing for students--classroom to classroom distance learning seems to be en vogue for several of my teacher friends, but that requires an actual camera so that it can be positioned and adjusted properly. I would have thought that an iSight for kids to take MySpace pictures would be one "home PC" feature schools would want to leave out. Maybe offering it as an option wouldn't be unreasonable, then.

 

[mklos]

Finally some sense to this thread. This was about an edu computer and most of the writers just began writing the specs of their personal dream cheap computers.

I don't think even bluetooth would be needed here, but airport is good to have. I'm pretty sure making a 17" lcd for imac is cheaper or the same price than making a 15" with the same resolution.. am I wrong here?

Still, ethernet would be good because in many cases it's smarter to have most of the files stored on a server. So with gigabit ethernet the computers wouldn't need so big HDs. It has to be cheap, so there can't be expensive stuff on it.

Apple isn't making the edu computers because they want schools to have them. They make them because they want money.

Exactly! I think too many people are thinking about their dream cheap Mac instead of what the needs of school districts are.

1. Schools don't need huge displays, 15.4" widescreen is a nice display for educational use. A 20" or even 17 widescreen display is unnecessary. I think that people who own the new 15.4" MacBook Pro would agree that the display is large enough for normal use.

2. Wireless is a must! Just because schools are mostly wired, doesn't mean they can't switch to wireless. This is actually quite doable in nearly any school district. I've already explained the benefits of going wireless. Not every district will do it, but I think it would give an advantage over the competition as most don't offer wireless standard.

3. Apple needs to get the costs down as much as possible and keeping the large display is a waste of money. Remember, Apple is competing against the $399-$599 Dell/HP here so it has to get close with the numbers and specs or else school districts will go elsewhere, even the dedicated Mac only districts.

4. iSight just plain isn't needed. It would cause more of a problem with students doing inappropriate things with it than anything and would add more unnecessary costs to the model. I think people just want this in their dream cheap AIO Mac.

5. The foot print needs to be as small as possible so having a smaller display would keep shipping costs down (remember these ship from China). Sure it would be in a smaller enclosure, but with the use of notebook parts, it would keep it as thin as possible without overheating. Apple can take a lot of technology from the MacMini and MacBook here.

6. CoreSolo just isn't worth it. Its just a disabled CoreDuo and Apple would only be saving a few bucks. I'd rather see them use the CoreDuo so that schools can keep up with technology 3 years down the road and not feel the need to upgrade their Macs every 2 years.

Again, remember this is going to be a Mac that meets the needs of educational institutions, not house holds and businesses. So it needs to be cheap, well made, and expandable for year of usage. These are needs that are slightly different from normal Macs. Some people just don't understand the needs of educators.

 

[gekko513]

Surprisingly, I'm actually liking www.engadget.com's mockup.

<picture>

I think those would sell pretty nicely given that the specs were fair.

Yeah, me too. It would have to be very bottom heavy, though, or the kids would topple it.

 

[AidenShaw]

3 years, or 3 months ?

6. CoreSolo just isn't worth it. Its just a disabled CoreDuo and Apple would only be saving a few bucks.

It's a Core Duo that mostly works, not a fully functional Core Duo that's been intentionally crippled.

I'd rather see them use the CoreDuo so that schools can keep up with technology 3 years down the road and not feel the need to upgrade their Macs every 2 years.

In three months Apple could be 64-bit up-and-down the line. In two or three years, if not sooner, a Core will be completely inadequate.

Or, did you mean a Core 2 Duo, perhaps?

 

[thejadedmonkey]

In three months Apple could be 64-bit up-and-down the line. In two or three years, if not sooner, a Core will be completely inadequate.

Or, did you mean a Core 2 Duo, perhaps?

My (almost) 3 year old XP notebook is still adequate for what I use it for..it's a Pentium M single core. Using that as a benchmark, I think a Core Duo would be fine for a few years, but a Core 2 Duo would of course be better.

 

[mklos]

It's a Core Duo that mostly works, not a fully functional Core Duo that's been intentionally crippled.




In three months Apple could be 64-bit up-and-down the line. In two or three years, if not sooner, a Core will be completely inadequate.

Or, did you mean a Core 2 Duo, perhaps?

Going 64-bit won't really make a difference. The performance increases are marginal and in a lot of apps, its actually slower because the CPU has to crunch more data to do the same amount of work.

I don't foresee a cheap education ONLY Mac doing 64-bit. It would be useless for them. Remember that Apple needs to keep costs down as much as possible as well. If it sells for $999, then IMO Apple just wasted their time and money because schools will just look to Dell and HP and get their $400 computers.

A CoreDuo will last a Mac for years. Apple doesn't make bloatware like M$ does. Schools don't need cutting edge technology every school year. The school I graduated from in 2001 used PowerMac 5200's and they were still working just as good as the day they were first taken out of the box. Sure they were only 75 MHz, but they did exactly what they were supposed to. CoreDuo Macs will serve the same purpose for years. I know I'm beating this to death, but remember that this is a computer for educational use, not personal, business, or gaming use.

Most of the use will be word processing, web browsing, and educational software. Most if not all educational software for the Mac will be able to run on these CoreDuo Macs for years to come. There may be a few apps out there that require some power, but thats why you buy faster Macs if you absolutely have to have that particular piece of software. Its not uncommon for schools to buy different models for different needs in a particular classroom. For example, the computer labs may have the new Intel eMac, while the digital photography/computer graphics classroom may have PowerMacs, or high end iMacs.

 

[itguy06]

Going 64-bit won't really make a difference. The performance increases are marginal and in a lot of apps, its actually slower because the CPU has to crunch more data to do the same amount of work.

Guess that's how an AMD x64 can smoke even the new Core Duos when running 32-bit software? It gets even worse with 64-bit software. The Core's come close, but are still generally second fiddle. It's been that way since the Athlon came out (And AMD has always been faster on non-FPU intensive apps).

Apple should have went AMD - the fastest chips now (and in the past), no production problems anymore, and 64-bits today. AMD also makes the whole widget - chipsets, chips, and can even reference you a motherboard just like Intel does.

Let's just hope Intel doesn't paper launch the rest of their roadmap like they have done so much in the past.....

 

[mklos]

I disagree...I think Intel was the correct choice for Apple. AMD is really good at one thing, gaming! Intel is a great CPU for general use and especially in the creative market. Many creative apps (Avid for example) won't even run on an AMD because nothing is fully optimized or not optimized for AMD processors, but rather Intel processors.

I have Mac friends who have had both AMD and Intel computers and the Intel computer smokes the AMD in nearly any creative thing they do.

Again, schools don't need the top of the line CPUs and never will....

 

[FragTek]

Guess that's how an AMD x64 can smoke even the new Core Duos when running 32-bit software? It gets even worse with 64-bit software. The Core's come close, but are still generally second fiddle. It's been that way since the Athlon came out (And AMD has always been faster on non-FPU intensive apps).

Apple should have went AMD - the fastest chips now (and in the past), no production problems anymore, and 64-bits today. AMD also makes the whole widget - chipsets, chips, and can even reference you a motherboard just like Intel does.

Let's just hope Intel doesn't paper launch the rest of their roadmap like they have done so much in the past.....

Ummmm... I hope this whole post is a hoax.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an AMD fanboy at heart but you obviously missed the train when the Core Duo's came out. All Core Duo processors, no matter which core (Yonah, Conroe, Merom, etc) all outperform any available AMD processor for s939 or AM2. The only thing that AMD has going for them with AM2 is incredible memory bandwidth which the new Intels cant even compete with, but it doesn't do much for AMD because they are still using the A64 architecture whereas Intel revamped the entire architecture for its Core lineup. In fact the new Intels are one of the largest jumps in technology we've seen in quite some time on the grounds of pure speed and performance.

I'm a very avid poster at XtremeSystems and Overclock3D and trust me when I tell ya... No AMD processor can run a 10 second SP1MB Let alone anything in the low 'teens. Yonah's are running ~23 second 1mb spi runs at completely stock speeds. An equivalent AMD rig requires a massive overclock only obtainable by a nice custom built single stage or cascade to reach the same speed that the Yonahs are hitting at stock speeds on air.

Do a wee bit more research before you go posting bogus crap... Kthx.

 

[jcabs]

Please APple don't miss a June announcement

I work in a K-12 environment with over 200 macs. The eMac is definitely needed. And, if Apple does not get a product out before mid-June they will have lost much of this buying season, or stuck a lot of schools like ours with buying eMac G4s which are three year-old technology. That is just poor. Apple has made similar mistakes and lost a signifiant number of schools in the process.

I would love to see specs in clue entry Core Duo, 512 MB Ram (minimum), 17" LCD - if it is an all-in-one product it will not have a CRT as Apple's company "green" policy states that Apple will not be selling any more CRT models, integrated graphics, and it can leave out all of teh iSight, wireless, and BT stuff. Sure they would be nice, but not necessary. I'd rather buy a couple simple webcams than buy one for every computer.

Wireless is definitely not needed in a school desktop environment. Apple has worked hard to provide some excellent network tools that in most cases will have schools using roaming profiles/preferences when they log in to a network server. This is just slow when doing it over wireless and especially slow when a lot of computers are trying to do it over wireless. Remote Desktop struggles over wireless. Mac OS X is finicky about network connections that get dropped in a managed environment. I have never even bothered trying to image machines over wireless. The cost of buying a small 5/8/12/24 port 10/100 switch to expand a network is soo small there is no good reason that anyone should resort to wireless in a desktop setting.

There is real value to Boot Camp. For about $70 a school can buy a Win XP Pro license and now have a lab that is very flexible in terms of software. This may only be a bonus in lab settings, but this is certainly a bonus. I have a lab that I would love to be able to replace with Apples running Boot Camp. The computers run a bunch of Windows only science software for some classes, but for other classes i wish I could use some of the Apple iApps. The machines coul deasily be rebooted in between class periods.

Let's hope Apple has something very soon for all of the Mac school out there.

Exactly! I think too many people are thinking about their dream cheap Mac instead of what the needs of school districts are.

1. Schools don't need huge displays, 15.4" widescreen is a nice display for educational use. A 20" or even 17 widescreen display is unnecessary. I think that people who own the new 15.4" MacBook Pro would agree that the display is large enough for normal use.

2. Wireless is a must! Just because schools are mostly wired, doesn't mean they can't switch to wireless. This is actually quite doable in nearly any school district. I've already explained the benefits of going wireless. Not every district will do it, but I think it would give an advantage over the competition as most don't offer wireless standard.

3. Apple needs to get the costs down as much as possible and keeping the large display is a waste of money. Remember, Apple is competing against the $399-$599 Dell/HP here so it has to get close with the numbers and specs or else school districts will go elsewhere, even the dedicated Mac only districts.

4. iSight just plain isn't needed. It would cause more of a problem with students doing inappropriate things with it than anything and would add more unnecessary costs to the model. I think people just want this in their dream cheap AIO Mac.

5. The foot print needs to be as small as possible so having a smaller display would keep shipping costs down (remember these ship from China). Sure it would be in a smaller enclosure, but with the use of notebook parts, it would keep it as thin as possible without overheating. Apple can take a lot of technology from the MacMini and MacBook here.

6. CoreSolo just isn't worth it. Its just a disabled CoreDuo and Apple would only be saving a few bucks. I'd rather see them use the CoreDuo so that schools can keep up with technology 3 years down the road and not feel the need to upgrade their Macs every 2 years.

Again, remember this is going to be a Mac that meets the needs of educational institutions, not house holds and businesses. So it needs to be cheap, well made, and expandable for year of usage. These are needs that are slightly different from normal Macs. Some people just don't understand the needs of educators.