New Apple File System Coming in macOS High Sierra Won't Work With Fusion Drives

[Mainyehc]

I doubt this has anything to do with the hidden Recovery partitions, which are, almost undoubtedly, resident only on the HDD like the Boot Camp partition.

Actually, I believe the hidden Recovery HD partition in Fusion Drives is created on whichever drive you set as the first one (that being usually the SSD). And the boot speed when booting into recovery mode seems to corroborate that; it's not as fast as booting from your main Fusion Drive-formatted macOS volume (a process very likely sped up by boot caches, which macOS external installers/internal Recovery HDs probably lack), but it surely is much faster than booting from even an internal 3.5'' 7200 RPM HDD.

And I should know the difference; my Late '09 27'' iMac started off with a 7200 RPM 1TB HDD, then it was upgraded to a 5400 RPM 2 TB HDD (a really dumb move, if I may add), afterwards it was upgraded to a 120 GB SSD + 7200 RPM 2 TB HDD Fusion Drive, and said SSD was then upgraded twice after that (first I picked a 240 GB Crucial BX200 – worst choice ever, as multiple units of that particular model malfunctioned and KP'ed on my machine and on many different MacBook Pro configs as well – and then swapped it with a 250 GB Samsung EVO 840, and it's been chugging along just fine ever since).

I must add that I'm a bit pissed at Apple for what I hope will only be a small delay, and I'm willing to give them a pass if they do release APFS for Fusion Drives and Time Machine in a .x HS update (especially since I feel that my Mac, then at age 9, will never get to run macOS 10.14 at all).

 

[tdb2284]

FYI. I just spoke with Apple tech support. This article is complete hearsay. If this was truly an issue they would hold back the high sierra release. The tech rep said there's nothing in their knowledge base that indicates this article is true.

 

[noraa]

This wouldn't be an issue if Apple reduced their SSD prices so we didn't need a fusion drive.

Even the cheapest SSD can't compete with an HDD at cost/GB. For example, I can get a 1TB HDD for $50, the cheapest 1TB SSD is $300 - and that's a for a pretty slow SSD.

 

[Nuttz565]

If you think your Windows or Linux experience is going to have fewer kinks then I have some bad news for you...

Exactly. Whenever I hear people talk about leaving Apples ecosystem I think to myself good luck. Like it or not there is still nothing that has a better more established ecosystem that all works together better than Apple. If you think otherwise your just kidding yourself.

 

[Art_Vandalay]

When macOS High Sierra is released to the public next week, the new Apple File System (APFS) feature will be limited to Macs with all-flash built-in storage, which means it won't work with iMacs and Mac minis that include Fusion Drives.

Macs with Fusion Drives were converted to APFS during the beta testing process in the first macOS High Sierra beta, but support was removed in subsequent betas and not reimplemented.

With the release of the Golden Master version of the software, Apple has confirmed APFS will not be available for Fusion Drives and has provided instructions for converting from APFS back to the standard HFS+ format.

Public Beta testers who had a Mac with a Fusion Drive converted to APFS will need to follow a long list of instructions to convert back to HFS+, including making a Time Machine Backup, creating a bootable installer, and using Disk Utility to reformat their Macs and reinstall macOS High Sierra.

Apple on September 5 published a support document confirming compatibility. When customers with an all-flash machine upgrade to macOS High Sierra install the update next week, their drives will be converted to AFPS. Apple explicitly says "Fusion Drives and hard disk drives aren't converted."

Apple says APFS will not be supported on Fusion Drives "in the initial release of macOS High Sierra," which suggests support could be added for Fusion Drives at a later date after lingering bugs are worked out.

Apple File System is a more modern file system than HFS+ and is optimized for solid state drives. It is safe and secure, offering crash protection, safe document saves, stable snapshots, simplified backups, and strong native encryption.

It's also more responsive than HFS+ with features like instant file and directory cloning, fast directory sizing, high performance parallelized metadata operations, and sparse file writes.

Apple plans to release macOS High Sierra on Monday, September 25.

Article Link: New Apple File System Coming in macOS High Sierra Won't Work With Fusion Drives

[doublepost=1505786322][/doublepost]Yeah but I have repartitioned my 750gb HDD as APFS running the GM on my 2011 Mac Mini and haven't had issues...

 

[applefan69]

Shame I thought they'd ironed these kinks out during the beta phase - they've had over a year now to get it work with Fusion Drives and hard drives.

Which begs the question what other CoreStorage volumes can't be converted. How about Apple Raid arrays? External drives? What about my iMac which has an internal Apple SSD and then 4x Samsung 850 SSD's in Raid 0 in a ThunderBay 4 Mini connected via Thunderbolt 2 and configured as a single CoreStorage volume...

...Looks like it'll be "fun" testing.

Yeah. Where is Apples technical documentation for all this? Real professionals need to know & plan for this stuff.

Just plain old lazy of them. I bet they figure (like someone already said) moving memory parts are on their way out the door so why spend the time engineering it. That would be disappointing but I could understand if they were just prioritizing the features. I really hope Fusion support comes eventually.

I do not use Fusion feature anyways. BUT I bought my parents an SSD because their otherwise powerful system was acting like a turtle, latest OS X ran like crap without one it seems. I could not afford to buy them a huge SSD, I think I bought 80Gb for $100 at the time (bought 2 years ago). I tried explaining to my dad who is fairly computer savvy how to manage both drives on his system, he understood what I was telling him but called it a pain in the ass. When we found out we could make them a fusion drive we were both blown away by how powerful yet simple. Now we are back to having a pain in the ass, possibly worse reversing things or not staying up to date.

edit: Am I understanding correctly that this simply means the APFS upgrade just simply will not take place while updating, meaning new features are not utilized? Hopefully that is the case then we have a non-issue.

 

[noraa]

FYI. I just spoke with Apple tech support. This article is complete hearsay. If this was truly an issue they would hold back the high sierra release. The tech rep said there's nothing in their knowledge base that indicates this article is true.

This article is 100% true. As of the latest High Sierra GM candidate, if you attempt to install on an APFS formatted Fusion drive, you are met with an error stating, specifically, that High Sierra will not initially support APFS formatted Fusion drives. I imagine this will change with a .1 or .2 update, but as it stands the .0 release of High Sierra won't support APFS formatted Fusion drives.
[doublepost=1505786974][/doublepost]

Yeah. Where is Apples technical documentation for all this? Real professionals need to know & plan for this stuff.

Just plain old lazy of them. I bet they figure (like someone already said) moving memory parts are on their way out the door so why spend the time engineering it. That would be disappointing but I could understand if they were just prioritizing the features. I really hope Fusion support comes eventually.

I do not use Fusion feature anyways. BUT I bought my parents an SSD because their otherwise powerful system was acting like a turtle, latest OS X ran like crap without one it seems. I could not afford to buy them a huge SSD, I think I bought 80Gb for $100 at the time (bought 2 years ago). I tried explaining to my dad who is fairly computer savvy how to manage both drives on his system, he understood what I was telling him but called it a pain in the ass. When we found out we could make them a fusion drive we were both blown away by how powerful yet simple. Now we are back to having a pain in the ass, possibly worse reversing things or not staying up to date.

edit: Am I understanding correctly that this simply means the APFS upgrade just simply will not take place while updating, meaning new features are not utilized? Hopefully that is the case then we have a non-issue.

Correct - High Sierra will work just fine with HFS+ Fusion drives.

 

[steve333]

I guess my 2011 Mini with a regular HD is out of luck with this release. Too bad, I was actually looking forward to it.
Now unless Apple comes out with an updated Mini, Tim Shnook can kiss my yaktibay

 

[Tech198]

Apple's all over the place. What good is an iMac with fusion drive .. Its probably best to leave it out till Apple fixes it up..

 

[Swazaloo]

Yikes. Probably should have made that call before beta 1...

Probably, but that's the risk of participating in beta software. I personally do a clean install with every major OS release so it's a non issue for me, it's an old habit from my Windows days.

 

[usarioclave]

Transitioning file systems is not for the faint-hearted. I'm OK with waiting, as I doubt any speed improvement is perceptible for my workflow.

That said, at some point they should fix this. I wonder what the problem was.

 

[noraa]

Transitioning file systems is not for the faint-hearted. I'm OK with waiting, as I doubt any speed improvement is perceptible for my workflow.

That said, at some point they should fix this. I wonder what the problem was.

My guess is it's an issue with converting a core storage volume to APFS' volume pool equivalent. Fusion drives rely on core storage to operate properly.

 

[Ener Ji]

Guys! Of course the new OS will still work. In the worst case, you have to use the old file system. And Time Machine will work. In the worst case, it will use HFS+. The new APFS is cool, but it's non-essential. And it's not even going far enough. It's not even close to what we call Next Generation File System. There is no error correction in APFS, not even error-checking. If a single bit flips in your magnetic drive, you won't even notice it, you'll never know until something crashes, or your document won't open anymore.

Update: APFS probably won't work with FileVault, either. That's a bummer, because most of us encrypt our whole drives on our laptops. So APFS is so far from a real Next Generation File System, I wonder if we should even bother with it at this point. It supports no encryption (File Vault), no error checking / data integrity, no spinning drives / fusion drives, no Time Machine. It's too little too late.

Where are you getting your information, because you've been led astray on just about every point.

There needs to be a clear explanation of how APFS works in relationship to Time Machine backups. I've read the bulk of this thread and still am not sure if an SSD boot drive using APFS could actually be backed up to a mechanical HDD through Time Machine. I really hope they're not expecting people to constantly clone the drive to another SSD in order to do a backup, regardless of how much faster it is with APFS.

It will work exactly the same as it always has.

FYI. I just spoke with Apple tech support. This article is complete hearsay. If this was truly an issue they would hold back the high sierra release. The tech rep said there's nothing in their knowledge base that indicates this article is true.

Tech support didn't look very hard. Here's your knowledge base article:
https://beta.apple.com/sp/betaprogram/apfsfusion

Yeah. Where is Apples technical documentation for all this? Real professionals need to know & plan for this stuff.

Right here:

https://beta.apple.com/sp/betaprogram/apfsfusion

 

[bobmepp]

Whoa this seems bad.

I have a 2010 iMac with just a traditional hard drive. I shouldn't have issues upgrading to High Sierra I'm assuming.

Next Mac is deff gonna be solely SSD. Never really liked the idea of Fusion.

I share your opinion re Fusion drives. According to the FAQs I read today on developer.apple, regular HDDs should not be an issue, but for external drives the upgrade installer will not automatically change over to APFS. This will have to be done manually via Disk Utility. Here are the quotes:

"Can I use Apple File System with my existing hard disk drive?

Yes. Apple File System is optimized for Flash/SSD storage, but can also be used with traditional hard disk drives (HDD) and external, direct-attached storage."

and:

"How do I upgrade to Apple File System?

The macOS High Sierra installer offers nondestructive in-place upgrades from HFS+ to APFS for bootable volumes. You can use Disk Utility to convert external volumes from HFS+ to APFS format."

Note that the answers do not say SSDs only.

 

[newyorksole]

None.

Nope, your drives just won't be automatically updated to APFS. I think you can restart from the recovery partition and upgrade your internal server to APFS from disk utility. If your WD backup is a time maybe backup, DO NOT upgrade it to APFS. Time Machine still needs to be HFS+ formatted (it will backup an APFS volume just fine).

Gotchya. Thank you!
[doublepost=1505792254][/doublepost]

According to the FAQs I read today on developer.apple, regular HDDs should not be an issue, but for external drives the upgrade installer will not automatically change over to APFS. This will have to be done manually via Disk Utility. Here's the quote:

"Can I use Apple File System with my existing hard disk drive?

Yes. Apple File System is optimized for Flash/SSD storage, but can also be used with traditional hard disk drives (HDD) and external, direct-attached storage."

and:

"How do I upgrade to Apple File System?

The macOS High Sierra installer offers nondestructive in-place upgrades from HFS+ to APFS for bootable volumes. You can use Disk Utility to convert external volumes from HFS+ to APFS format."

Beautiful. Thanks man.

 

[bobmepp]

If you think your Windows or Linux experience is going to have fewer kinks then I have some bad news for you...

I second that. I am going on 4 years since switching to the Apple ecosystem, and while I've had a few frustrations -- they have been nothing like the previous couple of decades with Windows. Be careful what you wish for...

 

[Analog Kid]

Watch the Key Note ... if you missed where he showed "supports all macs that support Sierra" then that's your issue.

The single sign on was a big deal. And if you go back to WWDC and watch when they were talking about iOS, the feature that got the most applause and cheers was when he announced peer to peer Apple pay payments.

Not sure why you're so defensive of apple. Beginning to wonder if we have some employees on here defending the mediocrity. Apple has gotten a LOT of passes the last couple years. When you pay for a product or service, you have a right to rely on features promised. If you disagree, you may want to consider why you pay a premium for something and get complacency from your vendor.
[doublepost=1505774845][/doublepost]

I remember when this site was people who were fans of Apple and not defenders of every stupid decision they make. Of course that was when iOS has an actual legit piece of the world marketshare, and when Mac users used them because their power, not because their friends said they were cool.

I'm not defending Apple, merely defending the facts and pushing back against your overly aggressive approach.

I remember when people had reasonable conversations about products and technology and didn't try to overblow trivial issues. I'm beginning to wonder if we have some trolls on here trying to sow confusion and discontent by intentionally misrepresenting technical details.

Anyway, I think the burden of proof is on you here. I'm not going to rewatch 2 hours of keynote but if you give me a time index, I'll view it. To the best of my recollection the quote you're referring to is about the new OS, not APFS.

 

[Ethosik]

If you think your Windows or Linux experience is going to have fewer kinks then I have some bad news for you...

Especially Windows 10. Good lord I have had more issues with Windows 10 than I have had from Windows 95 up through Windows 7. Yes, that includes Vista and Me. And this is across eight computers ranging from $500 to a custom built $2,600 gaming computer.

 

[flat five]

i'm assuming this will be a non-issue for me but i better check anyway with someone who knows exactly..
(i use this functionality daily and a large part of my file mgmt is now based around this)

if i were to update to high sierra on a MBP with SSD and an iMac with fusion (ie- only one switches to APFS), will desktop syncing be affected in any way?.. (like- the Desktop&Document sync found at Prefs->iCloud->iCloud Drive- Options)

further, will the Versions data (which syncs as well across computers when doing it through iCloud) still transfer properly along with the files and be usable with either computer?

---
i don't really think many people are working this way but if you do, and you understand the ins&outs of this file system change, please fill me in
thx.

 

[pat500000]

It's only temporary, people. I'll give anyone a hug... there there now....

 

[Ethosik]

Unfortunately (or fortunately) until the larger storage options come into my price range, absolutely spinning drives all day long. As long as Apple keep em spinning and operating fine, APFS can arrive in its good time. If I spec up an iMac with SSD to get close to a 3tb version, I will need another mortgage.

Wonder what the ration is, SSD vs Spinning disk out there in the world?

Why? A spinning hard drive does NOT benefit from being internal. It does not even saturate SATA2. So getting a 512GB or 1TB SSD and getting 8 TB as USB3 will still provide the same speed.

 

[ApfelKuchen]

i'm assuming this will be a non-issue for me but i better check anyway with someone who knows exactly..
(i use this functionality daily and a large part of my file mgmt is now based around this)

if i were to update to high sierra on a MBP with SSD and an iMac with fusion (ie- only one switches to APFS), will desktop syncing be affected in any way?.. (like- the Desktop&Document sync found at Prefs->iCloud->iCloud Drive- Options)

further, will the Versions data (which syncs as well across computers when doing it through iCloud) still transfer properly along with the files and be usable with either computer?

---
i don't really think many people are working this way but if you do, and you understand the ins&outs of this file system change, please fill me in
thx.

Shouldn’t be an issue, iCloud functions at the OS level, not the file system level (OS requests file from file system, file system passes file to OS). While not exactly equivalent, my iOS devices were running APFS long before I installed the High Sierra beta on my 27” iMac. Meantime, my Early 2008 iMac running El Capitan has had no issues with any of it, regardless of the file system.

[added] Further, there are no changes made to file structure.

 

[bobmepp]

Woah. Came here to say that every iMac they currently sell in stores (non custom built orders) come with spinning or fusion drives. So when this comes out every floor model will not be taking advantage of the one huge speed boost they demo'd and are pitching as the main reason for High Sierra's existence.

HDDs (non fusion) can be upgraded and can also be changed to APFS, as can external HDDs. Fusion drives can be upgraded to High Sierra, but will not be automatically converted to APFS by the installer. Not sure if Disk Utility will refuse to convert fusion drives to APFS, but regular HDDs can be converted. (I bet after 9-25, there will not be any fusion drives in Apple Stores -- it's not like Apple can't afford to change them all out!) It will be interesting to see if Apple will offer removal and replacement of fusion drives to customers who demand it, if they recently purchased an iMac. I'd be making that demand, although I have never liked the idea of fusion drives.

 

[aggri1]

Wonder how it'll go if I have MacOS and user folders on an SSD but symlinks for one user's Documents, Pictures, and Music folders which live on a separate hard drive. It's not a Fusion drive because the SSD is a Samsung model installed in an iMac (2010) which originally had no SSD at all. Think I'd best wait a bit before installing, when this is officially released, and read a few internet reports from braver souls.

 

[antonis]

Have you seen Apple prices for 2TB solid state ?? It's criminal

I wouldn't expect otherwise