New Apple TV soon (Jon Prosser)

[The-Real-Deal82]

Different priorities. Sound quality was my top concern before I bought a HomePod and, without getting into the specifics and derailing this thread, there isn't anything like it available. We use HomePod for Siri a lot more than I expected and it works fairly well (def room for improvement). I don't regret what I spent even buying the HomePod on day one.

Same with the Apple TV. My first, 3rd gen., one got put away when I bought an LG OLED, but the apps choked on our poor internet. Don't regret spending the money on the 4K TV for the much, much better buffering; slightly better IQ; and access to Apple Photos slideshows.

However, I think unless Apple ups the ante there are far more people like you than me and they'll lose what little ground they've got.

It is different priorities you're right and as you say unless Apple look at the wider market, then they'll continue to lose ground. I was definitely in the market for the Apple TV 4K a couple of weeks back and started a thread here asking questions. I was actually happy paying the £179 for it as long as it had all the things I wanted. I compared it against the Cube and decided to wait to see if a new box came out later this year. It was clear the Apple TV was better at some things and the Amazon others. Then my wife got an offer that made the Cube £62 instead of £110, so we decided to give it a shot. As something that streams all the channels we were interested in and the fact it syncs well with the Echo's we already have, it's proven to be a great little device.

It may be that we go to Apple TV in the future, but it will have either come down in price if it matches the competition or deliver a bit more than it currently does for me. We are a very Apple family with Mac's, iPhones, iPads, Apple Watches etc and Apple TV would have been a nice addition.

 

[Azrael9]

Yup, balance of cost vs power.

Xbox and Playstation need to be powerful to maintain "best gaming console" competitive edge. Many are willing to spend more for power.

Apple TV is a streaming box first, gaming second.

For Apple to justify putting the latest and greatest processor, Apple needs to attract or acquire premier AAA gaming studios.

In the absence of Apple officially entering gaming console market, tvOS must be tuned for limited gaming hardware. On Apple TV 4K, games should run at 8-bit 1080p. On A12X Apple TV 6, perhaps games can run in 10-bit HDR, upscaled to 4K just like Xbox One S.

Can't really argue against any of that. Spot on.

A12X is more than enough to maintain Apple Arcade's ambition in 'Casual Gaming' which is where ATV is. Enough to push game devs forward for the Arcade platform. Extra power to make signature games for Arcade and increase the ATV userbase. Some people may rather buy an ATV for TV 1st and play some 'really good' (and it has) Arcade games for that casual style rather than pay 2 and half times more for the over wrought PS5. And some may have both the heavyweight console and the TV 1st ATV.

The PS5 class is hardware losing money hardware to grab enough punters to sell another 10 million units quickly upon its launch. They'll make their money through software and hardware adds ons (controllers?)

I doubt Apple is losing money on the ATV hardware. They'll put an A12X in there when it is profitable to do so. ie when it fits inside their profit margins.

But from a customer point of view. They'll have to update it. The competition for TV is much cheaper and just as good and the games audience is taking a massive leap forward with consoles this year.

Rock and hard place.

Azrael.

 

[Deliro]

Hopefully soon. I bought the 4k a day before the Covid shutdown. So been using this for 2 months. Extended test drive. Depending on when Apple decides to reopen California stores who knows how long I’ll have this thing. A no brainier to upgrade if they release it before I have to return it.

 

[joshjet]

I've been contemplating this one for a while and would like to suggest one possible explanation.

The current processor in the ATV4K is just enough to allow the high-end apps built for it to run. In the rare case that the device has activities going on in the background, it can really hamper the performance of high-end apps. But unlike the iPhone which always has lots going on in the background, historically the ATV has had little.

There's good rationale for Apple adding HomePod HomeKit abilities to the ATV 4K. It's added value to have the device also act as a home manager. However these additional responsibilities require some ambient processor usage, which the device doesn't have any spare when running a high-end app.

So by upgrading to A12x, it's reasonable that existing apps could continue to perform at comparable or better levels, even if additional ambient functionality has been added.

It would be unacceptable to have a situation where a game dropped frames because someone unlocked the front door of the house or adjusted the lights. If this functionality is being added, the processing power has to come from somewhere, and that could be enough to justify a better processor.

Just a theory.

-josh

 

[Lerten]

Also - the Apple TV 4K is the only available device with a10x in it, since the 10.5 has been discontinued for some time now.

 

[gnomeisland]

I've been contemplating this one for a while and would like to suggest one possible explanation.

The current processor in the ATV4K is just enough to allow the high-end apps built for it to run. In the rare case that the device has activities going on in the background, it can really hamper the performance of high-end apps. But unlike the iPhone which always has lots going on in the background, historically the ATV has had little.

There's good rationale for Apple adding HomePod HomeKit abilities to the ATV 4K. It's added value to have the device also act as a home manager. However these additional responsibilities require some ambient processor usage, which the device doesn't have any spare when running a high-end app.

So by upgrading to A12x, it's reasonable that existing apps could continue to perform at comparable or better levels, even if additional ambient functionality has been added.

It would be unacceptable to have a situation where a game dropped frames because someone unlocked the front door of the house or adjusted the lights. If this functionality is being added, the processing power has to come from somewhere, and that could be enough to justify a better processor.

Just a theory.

-josh

Good theory; however, the Apple TV was the original HomeKit hub before the HomePod was announced. There are rumors of Apple expanding the service and the current hardware may no longer be sufficient, but I think it has more to do with games and the A12X is probably cheaper to produce at this point.

While the A10X is already more powerful than any streaming box out there, it does show its age at times. So I think you’re right that the A12X (which can both the big and little core simultaneously) opens up some possibilities outside just raw peak performance in games and what not.

 

[Glennster]

Anyone have any idea when the new Apple TV HD will be coming out? I currently am using the 3rd gen & needing to update.

 

[vault]

They are waiting for it to become outdated before they release it.

 

[jakeuten]

Anyone have any idea when the new Apple TV HD will be coming out? I currently am using the 3rd gen & needing to update.

As in a 1080p-only model? I doubt Apple will release anything that's not at least 4K compatible ever again.

 

[Wags]

Anyone have any idea when the new Apple TV HD will be coming out? I currently am using the 3rd gen & needing to update.

Right away if people would stop buying the 2 1/2 year old model.

 

[Glennster]

Might be a shot in the dark but any chance they would drop the price of the HD version?

 

[Deliro]

Good theory; however, the Apple TV was the original HomeKit hub before the HomePod was announced. There are rumors of Apple expanding the service and the current hardware may no longer be sufficient, but I think it has more to do with games and the A12X is probably cheaper to produce at this point.

While the A10X is already more powerful than any streaming box out there, it does show its age at times. So I think you’re right that the A12X (which can both the big and little core simultaneously) opens up some possibilities outside just raw peak performance in games and what not.

The only product to get an A12X has been an iPad Pro 2018. You really think they'll stick a limited run processor into a streaming box? That thing still is a beast, and no apps have really pushed it. It's overkill. As far as the A10X, it never stutters or shown that it's straining to keep up with that I throw at it. And I do play some of the arcade game.

If anything, the new ATV will probably get an A12.. The iPad Mini 5 has it, and its a screaming device and handles any game thrown it's way. But hey, if they do throw an X in there, keep it at the same price point, great.

A12 with double storage at the same price point is what I predict.

 

[gnomeisland]

The only product to get an A12X has been an iPad Pro 2018. You really think they'll stick a limited run processor into a streaming box? That thing still is a beast, and no apps have really pushed it. It's overkill. As far as the A10X, it never stutters or shown that it's straining to keep up with that I throw at it. And I do play some of the arcade game.

If anything, the new ATV will probably get an A12.. The iPad Mini 5 has it, and its a screaming device and handles any game thrown it's way. But hey, if they do throw an X in there, keep it at the same price point, great.

A12 with double storage at the same price point is what I predict.

Perhaps not for the CPU but the added GPU, yes. The Apple TV 4K is pushing a lot more visual data than any iOS device. The A10X GPU is already faster than the vanilla A12 (Metal) so an A12 would be a strange side-ways slide not an upgrade. It is also unlikely the A10X or A12 is powerful enough to decode 4K AV1 video which is an issue for next-gen streaming—and overcoming YouTube's poor support for the platform since both Apple and Google are in the group behind the AV1, unlike VP9 or HEVC.

In fact, given the relationship between the A12X and Z, and that the 2018 iPP is no longer being made, I think the Apple TV is *more* likely to get the A12X as a place to use the binned silicon that can't be marked as an A12Z and put in the 2020 iPP.

Of course I'm in the camp that Apple should be doing a lot more with this hardware.

 

[satcomer]

Sense the newest iPhone SE came with the A13 chip I’m starting to think the newest Apple TV it might get the A13 chip!

 

[deconstruct60]

Might be a shot in the dark but any chance they would drop the price of the HD version?

On a refurb? Yes.

https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/appletv

If Apple comes out with a new 4K version the "HD" version probably likely to get dropped. There is a A8 in there.
Apple may do a few more updates for that but that is a 2014 era processor. The current Home Pod uses the A8 and I think Apple has shifted tvOS as baseline for Home Pod so probably not killing tvOS on that processor soon, but there tvOS updates will probably slow to perhaps just bug/security fixes and support for the "faceless' Home Pod.

If Apple bumps the new "4K" up to higher storage then perhaps the then "old" 32GB model will drop down into the price zone the HD is holding now. ( Refurb 32GB are going for $149 when Apple has them in stock. ). [ Decent chance Home Pod dump the A8 also. this year. And the iPhone 6 (with A8) gets left behind on iOS updates. ]

But if you have hard requirements for the legacy ports on the HD model waiting probably won't help much. There may be some "close out" sales when it gets dropped. But that is like playing musical chairs.
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Perhaps not for the CPU but the added GPU, yes. The Apple TV 4K is pushing a lot more visual data than any iOS device. The A10X GPU is already faster than the vanilla A12 (Metal) so an A12 would be a strange side-ways slide not an upgrade. It is also unlikely the A10X or A12 is powerful enough to decode 4K AV1 video which is an issue for next-gen streaming—and overcoming YouTube's poor support for the platform since both Apple and Google are in the group behind the AV1, unlike VP9 or HEVC.

Not just the GPU. HomeKit could start to lean on the Tensor ( AI/ML ) ability in the newer chips also. Better local speech recognition (more private and faster responses ). Better video analysis ( I think Apple just bought some computer vision group. Coupling Homekit security video storage with object/person/etc identification would good match. )

Better GPU + better Tensor is more likely the A12X ( or A12Z).

The other issue is that the expected service lifetime of an AppleTV is probably longer than an iPhone. Which means for the AppleTV 4-5 years out being a decent "causal gaming" system then probably would be better off if had a A12X (or Z) than A13. The A10X would be in not so good relatively shape by than (not overkill at all). The A12 would be a bit dated also. The A10X in the 4K model several years ago means it still has some time to age out and serve longer service life one average than the phones do.

 

[Blair Paulsen]

Apple designs and sells hardware, but it could be argued they are fundamentally a services provider. The iPhone is a slick device, but IMO its success is based on the many things you can do with it. If I were creating a next gen ATV, I'd be looking at expanding it's use cases. Otherwise, as others have noted, what's the point of upgrading from the current model?
If it was up to me, I'd want to leverage iOS and the already developed and deployed multi-lens camera/Lidar combo on the newer phones/pads. Either add the camera array to the ATV for positioning below/above/beside the display or create a phone dock and use it's camera array. This would support video conferencing from the sofa with a big enough screen to show larger groups. It would support Kinect-like scanning/tracking of people and objects for interactive applications.
The low hanging fruit is certainly gaming - like the Xbox/Kinect games - but in addition to a point cloud, you would have live video. For starters, the emerging universe of Virtual, Augmented and Mixed Reality technology would be enabled on a level currently only possible in specialized settings/labs. With a little time and imagination...
In the near term I'd plunk down $200 for an 8K ATV with a USB-C port for adding storage, but would such a thing sell enough units to be worth Apple's time?

 

[gnomeisland]

If it was up to me, I'd want to leverage iOS and the already developed and deployed multi-lens camera/Lidar combo on the newer phones/pads. Either add the camera array to the ATV for positioning below/above/beside the display or create a phone dock and use it's camera array. This would support video conferencing from the sofa with a big enough screen to show larger groups. It would support Kinect-like scanning/tracking of people and objects for interactive applications.
The low hanging fruit is certainly gaming - like the Xbox/Kinect games - but in addition to a point cloud, you would have live video.

After giving it some thought as an armchair hardware designer I think including the UWB chip from the iPhone 11 makes the most sense. Yes, USB-C opens up a lot more possibilities but it requires a lot more support that I think Apple doesn't want to deal with—just look how locked-down the USB-C is on the iPP. Whereas Ultra Wide Band would enable improved AirPlay, historically a key differentiator that matters less now that TV's support it, as well as wireless (more elegant, more Apple) accessories just like you described. I'd love a quality 1080p or even 4k camera for my AppleTV especially if it supported some intelligent zooming and panning (even if it is digital). Adding LiDAR could create some fun game/UI potential. It would also open the platform up to be more than *just* a streaming box or remove the need for Apple to incorporate all the functionality now, like the iPP, you can adapt the core to device to your use scenario with key accessories (in that case the pencil, Magic Keyboard, etc.)

However, I don't see the A12X supporting 8K output. Maybe 4K 120p for video but even Apple's processors don't seem fast enough to offer a seamless, HDR 8k experience. Apple waited to add 4K until they felt they could do it right, and there were a critical mass of consumer TVs that supported the standard. 8K is coming but I don't think it is even where 4K was when the Apple TV 4K was released. Just my guess though.

Not just the GPU. HomeKit could start to lean on the Tensor ( AI/ML ) ability in the newer chips also. Better local speech recognition (more private and faster responses ). Better video analysis ( I think Apple just bought some computer vision group. Coupling Homekit security video storage with object/person/etc identification would good match. )

Good points I hadn't really considered. Someone in this thread or another one, pointed out that the ML cores could be leveraged to handle upscaling for games as well since even the A12X/Z isn't powerful enough to really handle 4K gaming.

I'm hoping, and cautiously optimistic, that Apple TV hardware will be more than just a spec bump.

 

[Wags]

Apple designs and sells hardware, but it could be argued they are fundamentally a services provider. The iPhone is a slick device, but IMO its success is based on the many things you can do with it. If I were creating a next gen ATV, I'd be looking at expanding it's use cases. Otherwise, as others have noted, what's the point of upgrading from the current model?
If it was up to me, I'd want to leverage iOS and the already developed and deployed multi-lens camera/Lidar combo on the newer phones/pads. Either add the camera array to the ATV for positioning below/above/beside the display or create a phone dock and use it's camera array. This would support video conferencing from the sofa with a big enough screen to show larger groups. It would support Kinect-like scanning/tracking of people and objects for interactive applications.
The low hanging fruit is certainly gaming - like the Xbox/Kinect games - but in addition to a point cloud, you would have live video. For starters, the emerging universe of Virtual, Augmented and Mixed Reality technology would be enabled on a level currently only possible in specialized settings/labs. With a little time and imagination...
In the near term I'd plunk down $200 for an 8K ATV with a USB-C port for adding storage, but would such a thing sell enough units to be worth Apple's time?

Apple is definitely all in on iOS and services. Look at their retail stores. What percent space for actual Mac OS hardware? 15%? At one of my stores they use 1 of those tables as a staging area to pick up online orders.

 

[deconstruct60]

....
If it was up to me, I'd want to leverage iOS and the already developed and deployed multi-lens camera/Lidar combo on the newer phones/pads. Either add the camera array to the ATV for positioning below/above/beside the display or create a phone dock and use it's camera array. This would support video conferencing from the sofa with a big enough screen to show larger groups. It would support Kinect-like scanning/tracking of people and objects for interactive applications.
The low hanging fruit is certainly gaming - like the Xbox/Kinect games - but in addition to a point cloud, you would have live video. For starters, the emerging universe of Virtual, Augmented and Mixed Reality technology would be enabled on a level currently only possible in specialized settings/labs.
....

Cameras are an expense AppleTV doesn't really need for core mission. Streaming video from somewhere else doesn't need a camera living room side. It is also a huge potential privacy hole. Apple has "push to talk" on the remote. Microphones and/or video cameras constantly (plugged in and always running) scanning/tracking someone's interior house probably will set a substantive number of people off. That is nothing like "push to talk".

An external, entirely optional camera assembly with an "off" button? Perhaps, but not built in onto every device by default. Kinect was also entirely optional. Largely same reasons cost ( to the generally price sensitive market and many folks didn't want it. )

Video conferencing from the sofa is probably not all that particularly good in large scale conferencing. Relatively super wide angle shot turned into a "participant" mini-square is going to be horrible at conveying expression (or just about anything other than "still there". And another potential privacy hole in sucking in even more of the room. ).

With a little time and imagination...

If Apple wants the AppleTV to expand into a number of non "TV content" roles then they probably should look at more accessories for the device. But throwing the kitchen sink inside the box probably won't help.

In the near term I'd plunk down $200 for an 8K ATV with a USB-C port for adding storage, but would such a thing sell enough units to be worth Apple's time?

Storage they probably aren't going to do. Especially generic USB-C which could be a spinning HDD. 8K is also probably a bad idea at this point.

Cranking the AppleTV price even higher is a really bad idea. What most of the competition can do with a $50-100 cost leaves AppleTV and Apple with lots of explaining to do. Crossing the $200 threshold would just be even more.
The rumors are is that Apple is going to throw 64-128 GB at the storage. ( auto-pruning games and content that folks haven't touched in a long while, along with a big local cache of more actively used stuff would go a long way of justifying the storage as a value add. )

But gaming isn't the only vector. As a HomeHub for HomeKit ( if Apple wants HomeKit to go anywhere long term) is another large candidate for better processor and storage for AppleTV ( processing security video for content before encrypting it and sent off to the cloud for storage. Always on cameras pointed outside (or only one when alarm on) is a better balance of security and privacy. )

 

[convergent]

Anyone seen any new rumors or clues about when the new Apple TV 4K will be released? I've got one I bought from Best Buy last week still unopened and trying to decide if I should go ahead and install it our take it back. If its going to be months, I'd rather not wait. If its going to just be a few weeks, then I would wait.

 

[nutmac]

Anyone seen any new rumors or clues about when the new Apple TV 4K will be released? I've got one I bought from Best Buy last week still unopened and trying to decide if I should go ahead and install it our take it back. If its going to be months, I'd rather not wait. If its going to just be a few weeks, then I would wait.

There has been some rumors that Apple will announce some hardware on WWDC on June 22. AirTags and AirPods Headphones are commonly cited, but perhaps Apple TV 6 will be one of them?

I am leaning toward iPhone event in the fall as more likely date for Apple TV 6, however.

 

[Wags]

Anyone seen any new rumors or clues about when the new Apple TV 4K will be released? I've got one I bought from Best Buy last week still unopened and trying to decide if I should go ahead and install it our take it back. If its going to be months, I'd rather not wait. If its going to just be a few weeks, then I would wait.

I am waiting. Hard to justify paying full price for hardware that is over 2 1/2 years old. Even if maybe still capable.

 

[convergent]

I am waiting. Hard to justify paying full price for hardware that is over 2 1/2 years old. Even if maybe still capable.

Yep, I hear you. But we just ditched cable for YouTubeTV and we have different streaming boxes on the different TVs and it driving my wife crazy. It may be worth $179 to keep her happi"er" for a month.

 

[deconstruct60]

There has been some rumors that Apple will announce some hardware on WWDC on June 22. AirTags and AirPods Headphones are commonly cited, but perhaps Apple TV 6 will be one of them?

Not much of a good reason for Apple to hold hardware that is ready and targeted to early June until the 22nd just for a dog and pony show effect. If the manufacturing is ready and the hardware just needs an current tvOS version bump it would be better to get that version bump out of the way so could release a tv0S 14 beta later ( at June 22 ). Doing a more complicated release under conditions when larger groups are even more decoupled with "work from home" only invites bigger problems.

AppleTV is overdue for an update ( 3a 2013 -> 4 2015 . 4 2015 -> 5 2017 . both 2 years ) . Coupling it to an event that is primarily not about the hardware isn't necessarily going to help. ( and few 'tech hype' journalists are going to have a massive fly in in late June versus early June. The late June event is no people in person also. ) Overdue doesn't mean they need a huge event to drive the sales message. Folks jumping all over twitter messages about hints is indicative that pump is already primed.

The bigger issue is probably more so manufacturing than WWDC synchronization. If the iPad Pro A12Z update has a slow user uptick then sooner rather than later would be good to sop up the "excess" A12-big dies as A12X packages. If the A12Z is soaking up more dies than expected then the AirTV could slide until more of that initial demand bubble dissipates. ( some slide but not a coupling to WWDC). Even there If have plenty of A12X packages but the AppleTV factories can't get other parts then later would be the case.

But factories and parts ready to go ( having been queued up year ago for a Spring launch ) and then sat on for an extra 2-3 weeks. Why? Sitting on product isn't going to help Apple. or their suppliers.

I am leaning toward iPhone event in the fall as more likely date for Apple TV 6, however.

Since WWDC slid it is highly likely that Apple isn't going to shorten the iOS beta period. iOS was flakey in 2019 with the early June- mid-ish September gap. It would likely get even more flakey if shorted that time window. Fall event probably really will be in the Fall ( post September 22 if not sliding into October. )

That is bit late to squat on a finished AppleTV v6. There is no upside there. The other TV streaming vendor aren't likely to wait. Newer TVs with better internal app/streaming CPUs aren't waiting either. The press hype on the PS5 and Xbox Series X is even larger by mid-Summer for the aspect of AppleTV as the casual gaming system. ( prices will sag on the the "soon to be legacy" systems will likely sag more closing the price gap. )

 

[deconstruct60]

Anyone seen any new rumors or clues about when the new Apple TV 4K will be released? I've got one I bought from Best Buy last week still unopened and trying to decide if I should go ahead and install it our take it back. If its going to be months, I'd rather not wait. If its going to just be a few weeks, then I would wait.

Unless in some special status ( "Elite" , etc. ), the normal Best Buy return policy around 14 days. If you got it last week then only have a week to go. If somehow have 30 days window then 21 days is probably a good line in the sand (even more so if charged it depending upon when how that billing cycle syncs up with that). Rumors that aren't "in volume manufacturing" , " hidden in retail store pricing system with a stub price" , "hardware beta tester comments" . etc probably won't cut it for extending the wait longer. Some resource stubs in tvOS beta version really won't be a change from the current status quo. ( so not new info. ).

I won't pin a ton of hope that WWDC's date critically matters on shipping or bring massive new clarity to the ship date.