New iBooks 'Not Technically' in ePub Format

[britboyj]

It took me a minute watching the presentation to get what I think they are on about, although I'm still not sure. It states that the benefit to the school is the student gets to keep the book which could initially be purchased via a redemption code given by the school, so although the price for anyone to buy is $14.99, this is not necessarily what the school will pay, the trade-off would be if the apple way is more cost effective, but for the student point of view it certainly seems more favourable as you get to keep the book which is otherwise handed back!

Soon, students will check out iPads. You can load custom firmware that locks out certain portions of the operating system (system settings, for example) even far beyond what the Restrictions allow.

When I was in high school, graphing calculators were $300 a pop. An iPad is much more versatile and $200 more (pricing and size subject to change of course) - A lot of K-12 districts are going to jump on this.

 

[2 Replies]

you're kidding right? if it was such a "good standard" then it would have had the features necessary to do what apple is doing. obviously they left something out, which again apple is now only trying to improve upon.

Don't be an idiot.
Just because a standard doesn't implement everything and the kitchen sink from DAY ONE, doesn't mean it's not a good standard.

And not everything Apple does is THE RIGHT THING to do.
Apple is taking an e-book format and trying to shoehorn it into a multi-media delivery system.

They're taking a perfectly good knife on its own, and tacking on crappy scissors, a mediocre toothpick, a crappy nail-file, a useless screwdriver, unusable cork-screw,... turning what was a GOOD knife into a crappy knife, and a crappy everything.
(Yes, I'm saying Swiss army knives are crappy knives. Because they ARE.)

Just like what they did to the iPhone when they got erections over what they could tack onto it while TOTALLY ignored what is was SUPPOSED to be in the first place (a PHONE for Pete's sake).
And don't even try to claim the iPhone's phone app is good. It hasn't changed since v1, and still has UI inconsistencies.

Apple needs to stop trying to make something else something it isn't, and stop and focus on fixing and refining what they've already got. Put some polish into it (and i don't mean polish as in tack on a shiny UI).

That's what Steve did.
He refined what Apple had, and actually added some quality and value. He didn't just add feature upon feature, like what Apple is currently doing.

A jack of all trades is NEVER an ace of one.

 

[Dorje Sylas]

While iBooks Author by be locked down, what we don't know is how iBooks 2 handles the ePub3 formant and standard. As long as it faithfully renders ePub3 as defined, Apple isn't being IE6 of e-readers... that would arguably be Amazon.

And there is a question of where the .iBook file is the "Work" or if the material inside (the words and videos and non-apple javascript) is the "Work". Has that been made clear anywhere? Because I strongly suspect that Apple doesn't have any grounds to tell an author that his/her arrangement of words on a digital page can only be sold in iBooks because he/she happened to type them in iBooks Author.

Now I can see issue in reproducing the underlying XML containers and iBooks Author generated structure into another container and selling that. But actual writer generated content (words, inserted video, html5/javascript code) seems like it would be fair game to reproduced and sell in another from, provided that form was not generated by iBooks Author.

I most defiantly could be very wrong on that point, as am not a lawyer and Apples language is hyper vague as to what a "WORK" really covers. However it seems if you did the reverse, published and ePub first and then made an iBooks version there isn't anything in the agreement that says you have to stop selling the ePub one that you had prior to the iBooks one. So why should making an iBooks version first prevent sale of a ePub created version of the material from different authoring software.

The "WORK" really needs a better clarification then it has.

 

[talmy]

The "WORK" really needs a better clarification then it has.

Seems pretty clear to me -- whatever you "Export" or "Publish" using iBooks Author can be sold only through the store. Any lack of clarity is wishful thinking.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

you're kidding right? if it was such a "good standard" then it would have had the features necessary to do what apple is doing. obviously they left something out, which again apple is now only trying to improve upon.

as far as the whole ebook business, it seems people are missing the point. wether its a static textbook or an electronic copy, the interactivity and "learning" aspect is whats at fault. well, really our culture of click and drag and instant digital gratification is at fault. like it or not, it's never going back to "the good ol' days". if you don't believe me, stop reading this and throw all your ianything into the trash...yea, didn't think so. apple's new approach is targeted and tailored at this new digital responsiveness of our current culture. the debate over textbook and epub vs. ibook2 is like mp3 vs aac, and the topic should be more like vinyl and cd vs mp4. this is an attempt to change the landscape of how education is deployed. wether or not it adheres to some standard is not the point. i have no doubt this is apple marketing, but it's the same approach they took with the ipod & iphone and look where that got them. i believe stressing this tight controlled option to schools is the right approach. if left to their own devices and "cheaper" alternatives, schools will inevitably do what that have always done, which is fail and churn out $h!t. i am embarrassed by our current education system. my god just look how grammatically incorrect this post is!

all i ask is, before knocking apple on this one. look at the overall concept and try to dispel any bias just based on keeping with their typical "controlled environment" approach. i think if done right, this is what is need to educate the youth of america and other countries to help propel them to the forefront of science and education and intern their overall economic status in the world.

smart people make stuff, dumb people buy it...

Problem is your argument falls apart when you are comparing it with Epub2 not Epub 3.

Apple iBook format pulls heavily from Epub 3 and from Apples history the lock out is blocking everyone but Apple products. It is not about a standard but about Apple lock in.

 

[Rocketman]

"Slight incompatibility" is a MS technique to enforce the platform loyalty and to force future upgrade paths. In Apple's case software updates sometimes compel hardware updates to accomodate them.

Since Mac Apps are OSX/Unix/BSD, there is no technical reason why every app released in the past 5 years cannot run on OS 10.3, 10.4, 10.5, 10.6. It is an active choice to NOT allow newer API's to be added to older OS's and to make newer apps intentionally incompatible with older OS's.

This will prove to be an impediment to preserving history and consumer data.

A couple of generations backward compatibility is a feature not a bug.

Rocketman

 

[theBB]

(Microsoft bucked a lot of web standards with IE6, opting to merely base their own implementation on the standards, rather than follow them to the letter. Which is why IE6 renders pages weird. It's also why IE6 is/was so unpopular.

It was so unpopular, in fact, it had more than two thirds of the "market" for net surfers.

It probably still have more users than Safari.

 

[dukebound85]

Seems pretty clear to me -- whatever you "Export" or "Publish" using iBooks Author can be sold only through the store. Any lack of clarity is wishful thinking.

Can an author write a book with iauthor, decide after a year that he wants to have it sold through amazon, etc, while taking the book off iBooks. Is he screwed? Would apple hold the right to that book? Forever?

 

[theBB]

Since Mac Apps are OSX/Unix/BSD, there is no technical reason why every app released in the past 5 years cannot run on OS 10.3, 10.4, 10.5, 10.6. It is an active choice to NOT allow newer API's to be added to older OS's and to make newer apps intentionally incompatible with older OS's.
Rocketman

Hmmm, let me see... The developers either should not use any of the new features or APIs introduced in the last 8 years, so that their "new" apps are compatible with "old" operating systems OR you should receive additional features to an already purchased operating system for 8 years without making the "active" choice of making additional payments. Sounds like a great idea...

----------

Can an author write a book with iauthor, decide after a year that he wants to have it sold through amazon, etc, while taking the book off iBooks. Is he screwed? Would apple hold the right to that book? Forever?

I would assume he can copy and paste the content into another universal tool for this purpose. I am not sure why any author would want to be stuck with just one store unless the interactivity is essential to the work and the other stores do not yet support them.

 

[dukebound85]

Hmmm, let me see... The developers either should not use any of the new features or APIs introduced in the last 8 years, so that their "new" apps are compatible with "old" operating systems OR you should receive additional features to an already purchased operating system for 8 years without making the "active" choice of making additional payments. Sounds like a great idea...

----------


I would assume he can copy and paste the content into another universal tool for this purpose. I am not sure why any author would want to be stuck with just one store unless the interactivity is essential to the work and the other stores do not yet support them.

I thought that if they want to sell in the ibooks store, then it must be free outside the store?

 

[possession]

cool tool, but with Amazon being a 500lb gorilla in the room and them supporting ePub, Apple should really fold these changes back into ePub and let the authoring app export into ePub format rather than just being hooked into the iBookstore.

Amazon certainly aren't supporting ePub. Amazon is fiercely proprietary in its Kindle format.

 

[mijail]

Since Mac Apps are OSX/Unix/BSD, there is no technical reason why every app released in the past 5 years cannot run on OS 10.3, 10.4, 10.5, 10.6.

Why not run in Linux too? It is a Unix too, isn't it?

What I am saying is: you are either exaggerating and so spoiling a good argument, or you are ignoring an awful lot of sides of the issue.

 

[linuxcooldude]

And not everything Apple does is THE RIGHT THING to do.
Apple is taking an e-book format and trying to shoehorn it into a multi-media delivery system.

They're taking a perfectly good knife on its own, and tacking on crappy scissors, a mediocre toothpick, a crappy nail-file, a useless screwdriver, unusable cork-screw,... turning what was a GOOD knife into a crappy knife, and a crappy everything.
(Yes, I'm saying Swiss army knives are crappy knives. Because they ARE.)

Just like what they did to the iPhone when they got erections over what they could tack onto it while TOTALLY ignored what is was SUPPOSED to be in the first place (a PHONE for Pete's sake).
And don't even try to claim the iPhone's phone app is good. It hasn't changed since v1, and still has UI inconsistencies.

Apple needs to stop trying to make something else something it isn't, and stop and focus on fixing and refining what they've already got. Put some polish into it (and i don't mean polish as in tack on a shiny UI).

That's what Steve did.
He refined what Apple had, and actually added some quality and value. He didn't just add feature upon feature, like what Apple is currently doing.

A jack of all trades is NEVER an ace of one.

I'll have to disagree with you on this point. You are thinking as a computer user and not as an educator. I've had some training as a teacher so I see where they are going with this.

There are several different learning methods to retain information. One is reading, another by listening to words by audio, another is multimedia for visual. Its better to use all these methods have a better chance of remembering.

Children's books is another great way of using Apples software books.

A child's attention span is very short, so the book needs to be engaging as possible to want the child to read.

By the use of video and if the book reacts to how the child touches the screen and interacts with them ( like moving objects around he is more likely to use it in the future. )

 

[blackcrayon]

Don't schools already have to deal with PCs made by x number of different PC manufacturers with multiple screen sizes?

Multiple screen sizes and resolutions on traditional PCs is a different issue than multiple screen sizes and resolutions on a touch device. A mouse pointer "point" is around a pixel in size no matter the screen dimensions. But a finger gets proportionally larger the smaller the physical screen... If you see what I mean.

 

[Rocketman]

Hmmm, let me see... The developers either should not use any of the new features or APIs introduced in the last 8 years, so that their "new" apps are compatible with "old" operating systems OR you should receive additional features to an already purchased operating system for 8 years without making the "active" choice of making additional payments. Sounds like a great idea...

There's nothing at all wrong with charging for it. In fact, enabling older in-use computers to employ the Apple Store and modern iTunes would add marginal revenue to third parties as well. Apple supports older PC's than Macs. That's odd.

Rocketman

 

[cg0def]

Awesome. A set-up for DRM! Seriously, if Apple is truly interested in education, these Mac-produced ebooks should be able to run on non-iOS tablets (cheaper for schools) and should be sold in other venues besides iTunes. If not, these textbooks will not likely be taken seriously.

So what else would you like Apple to do for you so that you would start to appreciate the value of their proposition? I supposed they should also ensure that every cheapo Android or other platform tablet out there has the right tools to run the new textbooks and that the display is of good enough quality so that it will cause minimal strain to your eyes, and that the battery actually lasts throughout a normal study session/school day ... anything else?

I'd say convincing publishers to sell textbooks at under $15 a pop is absolutely amazing. This is in fact the first time anyone, Amazon included, has managed to do something about the cost of a book (ebook or otherwise) and that's to be respected. Tablets are not a cheap thing and no they are not designed for the developing world but what you seem to forgetting is that Apple has always sold hardware with huge discounts (and I do mean huge) to educational institutions. As a matter of fact, they sometimes even give it away if the area is poor and really cannot afford the cost. So this is actually going to save schools money and as a matter of fact it is not about saving money at all. This is about getting children to be excited about learning and you can bet your bottom dollar that the approach will work because of the number of companies involved. I'd say this would actually make Steve proud and you can complain about the lack of Android or windows or whatever compatibility all you want.

 

[talmy]

Can an author write a book with iauthor, decide after a year that he wants to have it sold through amazon, etc, while taking the book off iBooks. Is he screwed? Would apple hold the right to that book? Forever?

The author would have to copy/paste the contents of the iBooks Author book into another program, and could sell the output from that at any time, independent of selling on the iBook store. Other people in this thread have commented about doing this, but the downside is that not all contents will copy and paste into another app. Expect lots of cleanup especially with any features beyond plain text. IMHO it makes more sense to start with a program that can export for all the epub formats. I'm waiting for Adobe to step in since iBooks Author is a major fail in that regard.

As far as book rights, Apple has no more rights to the book than any bookstore. The author still holds the copyright.

 

[smulji]

I see people jumping on this like it's some sort of authoring panacea. It isn't. If you are willing to settle for targeting a single platform through a single distribution channel with rigid terms then fine. In that respect it is no different than downloading Xcode and writing iOS apps. I'd gladly *pay* for iBooks Author if it had an export in epub format. It does look like a nice program to use from what little I've played around with it.

I don't think anyone is saying that iBooks Author is a panacea. And I understand your concerns but I don't think what Apple has done here is wrong. It's like you mentioned with your Xcode example. They give away the tool for free to build content for their devices & their stores.

iBooks Author files cannot be used in any other stores for the simple reason that it's proprietary due to the fact that it's wrapped in Fairplay DRM, the way that Kindle books are wrapped in DRM & can only be sold through the Kindle store and read on Kindle devices or on devices that Amazon has built the Kindle Store.

Remember you still own your content. So if you develop an interactive book using iBooks Author you can still develop a book, with your content, using Adobe's tools and sell it on another book store / platform simultaneously. It just becomes more work because now you have to manage two copies.

 

[dukebound85]

I don't think anyone is saying that iBooks Author is a panacea. And I understand your concerns but I don't think what Apple has done here is wrong. It's like you mentioned with your Xcode example. They give away the tool for free to build content for their devices & their stores.

XCode doesn't prevent the output of the program to only be used in the mac or App stores though

 

[Cubytus]

(...)
There are several different learning methods to retain information. One is reading, another by listening to words by audio, another is multimedia for visual. Its better to use all these methods have a better chance of remembering.

The other one that most educators seem to forget is the best chance of retaining information is through repetition. As wasteful as it seems to most North Americans, actually cutting courses duration in half, lenghtening the school/college day/trimester will accordingly lead to much better information retention, that will be reusable even once exams are over.

Trying to cram everything in a young head faster may provide short-terms benefits for many who are conditioned to learn fast, forget fast, thus wasting their talent and money in the process. I don't find it normal, both as a teacher and student, to be completely unable to remember anything from freshman year by the time you reach sophomore.

(...)
I'd say convincing publishers to sell textbooks at under $15 a pop is absolutely amazing. This is in fact the first time anyone, Amazon included, has managed to do something about the cost of a book (ebook or otherwise) and that's to be respected. Tablets are not a cheap thing and no they are not designed for the developing world but what you seem to forgetting is that Apple has always sold hardware with huge discounts (and I do mean huge) to educational institutions. As a matter of fact, they sometimes even give it away if the area is poor and really cannot afford the cost. So this is actually going to save schools money and as a matter of fact it is not about saving money at all. This is about getting children to be excited about learning and you can bet your bottom dollar that the approach will work because of the number of companies involved. I'd say this would actually make Steve proud and you can complain about the lack of Android or windows or whatever compatibility all you want.

Discount would have to be pretty deep to make it interesting to buy an iPad loaded with textbooks. Even added interactivity isn't worth any added cost, since college textbooks are already overpriced.

At least you can offset part of these cost by reselling your own textbooks, or buying used ones.

I don't know where you have seen Apple selling educational at huge discount, but to me, $50 off a MacBook Pro for college doesn't seem huge to me. If poor educational districts had access to "huge" Apple discount, why would they be using decade-old PCs?

(...)
As far as book rights, Apple has no more rights to the book than any bookstore. The author still holds the copyright.

Sorry to say, but in most cases, the © is owned by the publisher, not the authors, as it is for music tracks.

 

[kdarling]

The author would have to copy/paste the contents of the iBooks Author book into another program, and could sell the output from that at any time, independent of selling on the iBook store.

As you noted, though, it's not going to be that easy. Basically the author would have to redo the entire book with another, non-Apple-specific, tool. What a waste of time.

As far as book rights, Apple has no more rights to the book than any bookstore. The author still holds the copyright.

Right, but as others have pointed out online, Apple is claiming the selling rights to any book created with their software.

The thorn there is that if Apple rejects your book, then you cannot take that output and sell it on any other system, even if it supported Apple's format.

The whole thing is like Microsoft claiming they own the selling rights to any document that anybody creates using Word or PowerPoint, or Adobe saying any PDF document can only be sold via their store.

 

[gnasher729]

As a person who has an "ebook" that's been around for about 10 years I looked at this with interest. But there are numerous issues that make this a "no go":

• If you want to sell your book, it must be sold on the Apple iBook store
• Books sold on the Apple Bookstore can only be read in iOS devices (not Macs, PCs, Kindles, or other tablets).

Sure it's got animations, but it's an undesirable lock-in.

Not correct.

You have an ebook. You can use iBook Author to add lots of fancy animations and pictures that will only work on the iPad. The result can only be sold on the Apple iBook store. However, you can continue selling your ebook. Or you can use some Amazon software to add fancy animations that only work on a Kindle, if Amazon has such software, and sell it, according to Amazon's terms.

Just decide: Are the sales that you expect from adding these animations and selling the book through Apple enough to justify the work invested, or not?

iBooks Author files cannot be used in any other stores for the simple reason that it's proprietary due to the fact that it's wrapped in Fairplay DRM, the way that Kindle books are wrapped in DRM & can only be sold through the Kindle store and read on Kindle devices or on devices that Amazon has built the Kindle Store.

Well, that argument is nonsense. DRM is only added if the author wants it. iBooks can be totally DRM free. And the DRM is totally independent of the contents, so technically you could easily produce a DRM free iBook and wrap it in Amazon's DRM. The argument is even more nonsense because you are allowed to distribute the same book for free as much as you like by any means. The limitation is not on distribution, but on selling. So if the Kindle could play iBooks, then you would be allowed to create an iBook, put it on Apple's store for free or for a price up to $14.99, and put it on the Amazon store for free.

 

[smulji]

As you noted, though, it's not going to be that easy. Basically the author would have to redo the entire book with another, non-Apple-specific, tool. What a waste of time.



Right, but as others have pointed out online, Apple is claiming the selling rights to any book created with their software.

The thorn there is that if Apple rejects your book, then you cannot take that output and sell it on any other system, even if it supported Apple's format.

The whole thing is like Microsoft claiming they own the selling rights to any document that anybody creates using Word or PowerPoint, or Adobe saying any PDF document can only be sold via their store.

The difference is, is that MS & Adobe charge a tonne of money to purchase / license Office or Adobe Acrobat to create documents. iBooks Author is free. And correct me if I'm wrong, but MS Office formats are proprietary. Companies like Apple that create Pages to import / export Office formats have to pay a royalty for that. So maybe a solution might be that Apple will charge other platforms royalties to use the iBooks Author file format.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Right, but as others have pointed out online, Apple is claiming the selling rights to any book created with their software.

The thorn there is that if Apple rejects your book, then you cannot take that output and sell it on any other system, even if it supported Apple's format.

The author still owns all the content he used to make the book. Pictures, text, video, audio. He can still use that material to make another book using a different software program.

Besides, just because its rejected they can still resubmit book after the appropriate changes are made.

 

[talmy]

Originally Posted by talmy
(...)
As far as book rights, Apple has no more rights to the book than any bookstore. The author still holds the copyright.

Sorry to say, but in most cases, the © is owned by the publisher, not the authors, as it is for music tracks.

Not in this case, and for the author not to have the copyright it must either be a "work for hire" or the author must knowingly sell the rights to the publisher. No such agreement is made here with Apple. Apple is just the bookseller but the license for iBooks Author states that only they can sell its output.

Not correct.

You have an ebook. You can use iBook Author to add lots of fancy animations and pictures that will only work on the iPad. The result can only be sold on the Apple iBook store. However, you can continue selling your ebook. Or you can use some Amazon software to add fancy animations that only work on a Kindle, if Amazon has such software, and sell it, according to Amazon's terms.

Just decide: Are the sales that you expect from adding these animations and selling the book through Apple enough to justify the work invested, or not?

I'm not sure what I said that wasn't correct here. I'm in 100% agreement with what you said. What I want is a tool, for which I'm willing to pay money, that will allow creating a fancy book *once* and then exporting it in formats for iOS and computers (Windows/Mac and even Linux) and arbitrary tablets. This ebook tower of Babel is such a waste of time and money. *Standards* people!