New iPad Pro Has Comparable Performance to 2018 15" MacBook Pro in Benchmarks

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I hope not. Not because ARM can't handle MacOS but simply I don't want to transition yet another painful architecture change. 68K->PPC->iAPX86->ARM? No thank you.

Those were painless.

68K to PPC = FAT Binaries

PPC to x86 = Rosetta and Univeral Binaries

There will already be macOS running on ARM in closed labs with SDKs. Intel Macs existed in the labs for 4-5 years before release. NEXTSTEP and Rhapsody were also ported to x86 in labs.

 

[curtvaughan]

That's awesome. I'm hoping the Pro can become a laptop replacement for me in the next couple years. Unfortunately, some people on here refuse to believe that it may be a replacement for some, just because it's not a replacement for them specifically. Really weird thing to get worked up about.

The reason they're getting "worked up" is that there is a fear that Apple will stop producing Macs in favor of iOS devices. If Apple follows its current revenue flow, there's little doubt that they have little motivation to continue producing high quality desktops and laptops. Some people get "worked up" over that, as they've been using Macs for 20 or 30 years, and aren't thrilled with being pushed into PC land, having to use Windows or learn to use Linux. This forum is called MACrumors. Some people still associate Apple with Macs, though they are being phased out with the last 5 years of Apple's Mac offerings. Just my take.

 

[Der Keyser]

this is my biggest problem with the whole "FUTURE OF COMPUTING" people seem to scream about with ipads

ignore the name. ignore who makes it. Etc.

an iPad/Tablet is a computer. it'sa CPU, memory, storage, controllers etc. it's all essentially the exact same paradigm.

So why is this even a debate? Performance of the hardware in mobile is getting to the point accross the board where the hardware can handle a lot of day to day use cases. keyboard is just input, touch is just input. these are just methods. all computers from tablets to computers are generally hardware capable of using any of them


but when we then get to the iPad we run into this wall of iOS. as you outright say in this post, the problem you run into isn't the hardware. isn't the capabilities of the hardware. It's artificial roadblocks that Apple insists on for their own purposes.

right now, software is the great divide between "PC" and "Tablet" and Apple seems to completely not care to bridge it, or intentionally destroying any bridge.

if the iPad came out with full cursor support, no limit App size, and the full features that you get on Mac OS, than the hardware itself is almost a moot concern.

So what is apples gameplan. Whats the point of ever increasing hardware performance if there's going to be software limits on how much of that you can leverage.

My thoughts exactly... But honestly I think Apple is very mindfull of what happened to microsoft and Windows in terms of monopoly. I basically just think apple would rather keep bumping the price up to increase earnings rather than risking winning the marked over and have to start dealing with monoply lawsuits, threath’s of breakup by authoritites and so on. I think they are deliberatly “making sure” not to become too dominant by not being the biggest, and from the get go make 120% sure that buyers get it: “This is a closed eco system, a walled garden - we decide everything, so suck it up or go elsewhere”

 

[cmaier]

I don't believe that professional graphic or comic book artists and the like can use an IPP for their primary workhorse. Without a file system, and so no external thumb drive or storage drive connectivity, it's a total
pain to input high res scans, or transfer PS, Sketchbook etc. graphic files, especially multilayer 400 mb monsters, and also the screen is too small to draw on professionally.

Why was the laptop invented? As a portable desktop--same OS same software but mobile.
The IPP will never be a laptop replacement unless it can do everything a desktop can do despite whatever Tim says. It can be a laptop alternative for some users, but not a true replacement.

IPP has exactly the same file system as Mac.
Files.app and the accompanying sdk file choosers support a plug-in architecture that makes it exceedingly easy to support external drives, if apple wants to. Most people in-the-know predict this is coming in iOS 13.

 

[shansoft]

Nope.

For example, did you know that iPad pro scores 10000 on LLVM (compiling) vs the late 2017 mac pro's score of 8000?

The a12x scores are legit.

How did they measure llvm exactly? code compiling time?

Pretty sure it's incomparable due to architecture. Test is just test, no real world bench.
Windows RT already proven that general purpose on ARM and it's raw power is far behind x86 at this moment in time.

 

[Altis]

We've been forever told that the 'specs don't matter', 'only the user experience matters'.

I don't really care what it benchmarks if the OS is endlessly getting in my way.

 

[cmaier]

How did they measure llvm exactly? code compiling time?

Pretty sure it's incomparable due to architecture. Test is just test, no real world bench.
Windows RT already proven that general purpose on ARM and it's raw power is far behind x86 at this moment in time.

They measure it by compiling code. That’s how benchmarks work. Compiling identical code to the identical LLVM target.
Windows RT has proven nothing - it doesn’t run on A12. It runs on ****** Qualcomm chips. You can’t say one architecture is faster than another - that’s nonsense. If anything, ARM should have a slight advantage since it requires fewer ID pipe stages. What matters is implementation. And Apple’s kick’s Intel’s butt.

 

[thunng8]

How did they measure llvm exactly? code compiling time?

Pretty sure it's incomparable due to architecture. Test is just test, no real world bench.
Windows RT already proven that general purpose on ARM and it's raw power is far behind x86 at this moment in time.

They compile to the same target architecture. Windows RT or the latest Windows 10 ARM has nothing to do with the apple arm chips. They run very slow (comparatively compared to Apple's A series) Qualcomm snapdragons.

Another datapoint is that the a12 (not a12x) is a lot faster at compiling using gcc in the spec2006 benchmark than a 3.8Ghz skylake chip. Spec is a much more demanding suite of benchmarks that takes hours to run.

44.56 vs 31

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13392/the-iphone-xs-xs-max-review-unveiling-the-silicon-secrets/4

compared to:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12694/assessing-cavium-thunderx2-arm-server-reality/7

 

[brofkand]

We've been forever told that the 'specs don't matter', 'only the user experience matters'.

I don't really care what it benchmarks if the OS is endlessly getting in my way.

Yeah, the limitations of iOS become big issues in short order. I need to save this file to my work's NAS...yeah, sorry - no way to mount an SMB share. Third party apps might work maybe but you'll have to try three or four. Darn, they emailed me a file I need in a ZIP. Time to boot up my Mac or spend 15 minutes looking for an app that might work... Let me copy this text from Safari to my Word document. Five swipes, six taps, a few presses of the home button - or two quick keyboard shortcuts and a few clicks on a Mac. Importing photos from my DSLR - here's my dongle, wait I want to put them in Lightroom not Photos...grrr import into Photos, open in Lightroom, delete from Photos, NOW I can work. 5 taps to do something that's a quick keyboard shortcut on a Mac...as Steve would say "Boom."

iOS is not a productive operating system. It simply isn't for anything but drawing on the screen. But then you have to do something with that drawing - and short of iCloud with Apple apps, there isn't really a good way to do anything with that document.

In short, the power of the A12X will sit around computing facial recognition in your Photo Stream, basically doing NOTHING, until it's obsolesced by the limited RAM in the device. Same story as with the A6X, A7X, etc.

Apple has to seriously re-think iOS before people take the word "Pro" in the name seriously I think.

 

[Coldsmoke55]

Great... the iPad Pro has all that power and virtually no apps, (except for games) to take advantage of it. At the very least Apple needs to work with Microsoft to port a full version of Office to the iPad so office works like office on the desktop. Until there are desktop class apps the iPad is just a large iPhone.

 

[DNichter]

Yeah, the limitations of iOS become big issues in short order. I need to save this file to my work's NAS...yeah, sorry - no way to mount an SMB share. Third party apps might work maybe but you'll have to try three or four. Darn, they emailed me a file I need in a ZIP. Time to boot up my Mac or spend 15 minutes looking for an app that might work... Let me copy this text from Safari to my Word document. Five swipes, six taps, a few presses of the home button - or two quick keyboard shortcuts and a few clicks on a Mac. Importing photos from my DSLR - here's my dongle, wait I want to put them in Lightroom not Photos...grrr import into Photos, open in Lightroom, delete from Photos, NOW I can work. 5 taps to do something that's a quick keyboard shortcut on a Mac...as Steve would say "Boom."

iOS is not a productive operating system. It simply isn't for anything but drawing on the screen. But then you have to do something with that drawing - and short of iCloud with Apple apps, there isn't really a good way to do anything with that document.

In short, the power of the A12X will sit around computing facial recognition in your Photo Stream, basically doing NOTHING, until it's obsolesced by the limited RAM in the device. Same story as with the A6X, A7X, etc.

Apple has to seriously re-think iOS before people take the word "Pro" in the name seriously I think.

iOS isn’t for everyone when it comes to productivity. Everyone’s needs are different, but it can work for certain people and certain professions. I use the Files app to access my NAS though, really easy. Capabilities will only continue to expand. I don’t see macOS going anywhere, but Intel is as good as gone.

 

[thunng8]

Yeah, the limitations of iOS become big issues in short order. I need to save this file to my work's NAS...yeah, sorry - no way to mount an SMB share. Third party apps might work maybe but you'll have to try three or four. Darn, they emailed me a file I need in a ZIP. Time to boot up my Mac or spend 15 minutes looking for an app that might work... Let me copy this text from Safari to my Word document. Five swipes, six taps, a few presses of the home button - or two quick keyboard shortcuts and a few clicks on a Mac. Importing photos from my DSLR - here's my dongle, wait I want to put them in Lightroom not Photos...grrr import into Photos, open in Lightroom, delete from Photos, NOW I can work. 5 taps to do something that's a quick keyboard shortcut on a Mac...as Steve would say "Boom."

iOS is not a productive operating system. It simply isn't for anything but drawing on the screen. But then you have to do something with that drawing - and short of iCloud with Apple apps, there isn't really a good way to do anything with that document.

In short, the power of the A12X will sit around computing facial recognition in your Photo Stream, basically doing NOTHING, until it's obsolesced by the limited RAM in the device. Same story as with the A6X, A7X, etc.

Apple has to seriously re-think iOS before people take the word "Pro" in the name seriously I think.

I think you haven't use ios for a while. Mail can unzip files easily. Copy text from safari to word is simple. Even drag and drop works between safari and word including images. For SMB - all you need to the Documents app that does a lot more than just opening SMB.

It is a bit of a hassle with lightroom - but other apps like Affinity can directly access photos - no need to reimport.

 

[Feenician]

Every time this topic comes up someone rushes in to tell everyone how x86 emulation couldn't possibly be done on Arm. Microsoft showed full Windows 10 running Photoshop under x86 emulation pretty well, 2 years ago, on some Qualcomm chip (820 probably?).

If it can be done on a 2 year old Qualcomm SOC, it can definitely be done on whatever follows A12.

 

[Pakaku]

Since we're getting Photoshop and AutoCAD, when can we expect Xcode?

That would make too much sense, and Apple isn't in the business of making sense at the moment.

 

[iZac]

ARM macs would be a painful but great push for developers. If the ‘only’ underlying code difference between iOS and Mac OS on ARM is the Finder vs Springboard and Mouse Vs Pencil, then it would make developers job to port programs one way or the other much easier.

Apple could also then allow for Macs to natively run iOS apps. That contentiously may be a bigger boon for them than Macs running Windows for ‘switchers’

 

[brofkand]

iOS isn’t for everyone when it comes to productivity. Everyone’s needs are different, but it can work for certain people and certain professions. I use the Files app to access my NAS though, really easy. Capabilities will only continue to expand. I don’t see macOS going anywhere, but Intel is as good as gone.

Your last sentence I can certainly agree with.
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I think you haven't use ios for a while. Mail can unzip files easily. Copy text from safari to word is simple. Even drag and drop works between safari and word including images. For SMB - all you need to the Documents app that does a lot more than just opening SMB.

It is a bit of a hassle with lightroom - but other apps like Affinity can directly access photos - no need to reimport.

My point is these common tasks take many times more discrete actions than they do on the Mac.

You are right about Mail working with ZIPs - it's been some time since I've tried it, and it works!

 

[Amazing Ox Space Monkey]

My point is that if you stop looking at the platform in terms of hardware capabilities compared to other hardware and simply look at it in terms of software that gets your job done, iPad should fully replace laptops in a few years. This is not because it's better but simply because a laptop will be overkill and overpriced.

No reason to buy something now that will be fully useful in a few years. Let’s not forget that in a few years’ time Apple will have raised the price of the iPad several times more.

In order to fully replace a laptop, the iPad should become autonomous, one should be able to compile programs for iPad on the iPad, should be able to configure external devices like a router, connect to external storage and so on. I need to be able to run PhpStorm and Docker, install a newer version of Php and so on. It should become a platform for development.

Right now all of this is in the air and in our dreams. These tablets and phones have been having wasted potential since the introduction of the 64-bit A7 chip - back in the day the iPad was already more powerful than some laptops. What has changed since then? Honestly, very little. I still need to spend those €1500-2000 on a laptop/iMac in addition to the €1500 for iPad.

 

[catportal]

This is not true. In the x86 processors I've designed, some instructions are inherently RISC-y, some are translated using a microcode ROM on-the-fly to RISC-like ops, and some are CISC-y (for example, instructions that use complex addressing schemes, etc.) Even where individual ops are translated to a sequence of microOps, this is still inherently different than RISC - among other things, you need much more complicated instruction decoders, with microcode sequencers, microcode ROMs, etc. This also affects the instruction sequencing (out-of-order issue and retirement) because you can't ever perform "half" an x86 instruction (e.g. by performing 4 out of 8 corresponding microOps). You have to deal with much more complicated addressing modes, and instructions that write to or read from memory.

RISC is more than just "execute simple instructions." It is "don't allow any instruction to write/read memory other than STORE/LOAD," and "don't use complicated flag modes" and "don't have instructions with more than two operands," etc.

How recently did you work on x86? All modern processors execute micro ops directly now (icaches are micro op caches). As I initially mentioned the concept of RISC/CISC don’t really exist outside the ISA level anymore (software construct for programmers basically). Actual hw implementation is a function of maximizing perf for a given power envelope and area constraint. Also I don’t see the relevance of OOO and reorder buffering for instruction retirement wrt RISC/CISC.

 

[UltimaKilo]

At this rate, the MacBook could become a viable product by 2020.

 

[Greymacuser]

You're saying that like nobody knows it though. Yes, this isn't a laptop. It can hit performance levels close to this year's pro laptops. For some reason it angers people that even though it isn't a laptop replacement for you specifically, it might be for someone else. It's gonna be okay, take a deep breath.

It bothers people because Apple is putting all their energy into making these toys, rather than real desktops that can do actual heavy lifting work.
How long has it been since the MacPro was refreshed?

 

[jlc1978]

My thoughts exactly... But honestly I think Apple is very mindfull of what happened to microsoft and Windows in terms of monopoly. I basically just think apple would rather keep bumping the price up to increase earnings rather than risking winning the marked over and have to start dealing with monoply lawsuits, threath’s of breakup by authoritites and so on. I think they are deliberatly “making sure” not to become too dominant by not being the biggest, and from the get go make 120% sure that buyers get it: “This is a closed eco system, a walled garden - we decide everything, so suck it up or go elsewhere”

Apple doesn't have to worry about being accused of being a monopoly; they have no where near the market power of a monopoly. Unlike MS, whose OS dominated the market and thus allows them to dictate what is included on install, push their products (Bing, IE, etc.) by bundling them and requiring OEMS to use the bundle, engage in predatory pricing practices and thus exhibit monopolistic behavior.
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In order to fully replace a laptop, the iPad should become autonomous, one should be able to compile programs for iPad on the iPad, should be able to configure external devices like a router, connect to external storage and so on. I need to be able to run PhpStorm and Docker, install a newer version of Php and so on. It should become a platform for development.

I'm not so sure. What you're describing is probably done by a small fraction of the Mac user base; compared to those who use one for other productivity tasks not related to development. Apple will add features aimed at those users, allowing them to replace a Mac or PC with an iPad, which may also benefit developers as a side benefit but is not why Apple added the features.

 

[jtinch]

That's fine, it's your right to be afraid of that happening. The future is coming however. It's just ridiculous seeing people all over this thread delegitimize iPad Pro as a future laptop replacement. Either embrace the future, or get left in the dust. This is coming from someone who uses an iMac for work and a Macbook Pro for school.

The reason they're getting "worked up" is that there is a fear that Apple will stop producing Macs in favor of iOS devices. If Apple follows its current revenue flow, there's little doubt that they have little motivation to continue producing high quality desktops and laptops. Some people get "worked up" over that, as they've been using Macs for 20 or 30 years, and aren't thrilled with being pushed into PC land, having to use Windows or learn to use Linux. This forum is called MACrumors. Some people still associate Apple with Macs, though they are being phased out with the last 5 years of Apple's Mac offerings. Just my take.

 

[Naimfan]

How does ipp do on cinebench or unigine?

 

[Altis]

That's fine, it's your right to be afraid of that happening. The future is coming however. It's just ridiculous seeing people all over this thread delegitimize iPad Pro as a future laptop replacement. Either embrace the future, or get left in the dust. This is coming from someone who uses an iMac for work and a Macbook Pro for school.

"The future" is whatever we make it to be.

It won't be anytime soon that I'll trade a multi-monitor desk setup for a tablet. Maybe some day when it becomes better at the things I need to do, but for now it's not even close.

 

[cmaier]

How recently did you work on x86? All modern processors execute micro ops directly now (icaches are micro op caches). As I initially mentioned the concept of RISC/CISC don’t really exist outside the ISA level anymore (software construct for programmers basically). Actual hw implementation is a function of maximizing perf for a given power envelope and area constraint. Also I don’t see the relevance of OOO and reorder buffering for instruction retirement wrt RISC/CISC.

I worked on Opteron, Athlon 64, UltraSparc V, Exponential x704, etc. I drafted the first draft of the x86-64 integer 64-bit extensions, designed caches, integer and floating point execution units, instruction schedulers and register renaming blocks, etc.

I sort of know what I'm talking about. The concept of RISC/CISC is absolutely a real hardware issue. No cache on any AMD chip I ever worked on was a micro-op cache. Architectural instructions were cached, and decoded by the instruction decoder into micro-ops, micro sequenced, etc.