New iPadOS 16.1 Beta Expands Stage Manager to Older iPad Pro Models, Delays External Display Support

[Shirasaki]

That is messier looking than it needs to be. Because they didn’t implement a Mission Control/expose style window viewer they have to keep all apps partially visible - it would make more sense to be able to put windows fully on top of each other some times.

You can resize windows to some extent, and one option is to put window in full screen mode. I let it overlap cause I need fast switching on a touch screen, which stage manager can do but macOS doesn’t need to.

All of this makes me even more annoyed that Apple can't fix the simple problem of driving external displays at anything other than 4:3. I don't even want Stage Mangler with its multi-window compositing. Just give me the standard UI rescaled to 16:9 or whatever, with black bars on the internal display. Super useful for when I want to travel light but still present/project or use external screen. 10x more useful than this feature nobody asked for.

Can't argue that the hardware can't do it. It already works for video playback, and the mirrored output is 1080p with side bars.

Fix Apple’s obsession of square pixels first before thinking about 16:9 support on external monitor.

 

[Ludatyk]

So why did they backtrack and even give stage manager to A12X/Z? They are having a hard time with it and they are realizing monitor support is not ready for prime time, just like Universal control wasn't last year, but they knew people would rant. So IMO they decided to throw a bone at old iPad pro users, so that at least this hits the news and not the fact that monitor support is not ready and may not be until next year....

I can’t speak for anyone else… but I personally haven’t had much issues with monitor support for Stage Manager. As far as I know… they did have issues with 1080p monitors, but I think the latest betas have ironed out those bugs. But I do think they backtracked because of the huge criticism by users.… there’s more 2018/2020 iPP users compared to M1 iPad users.

From all the articles and criticism…. I’m sure that forced Apple to rethink their strategy and make the feature compatible for 2018/2020 iPP users. And I know 2018/2020 iPP users are delighted to have the feature… But it’s one of those thought process of how can Stage Manager be as good as it can be if the support is wide ranging. If it’s limited for M1 iPads with the amount of 8GB RAM at its disposal… they can experiment more with it.

I’ve never seen Apple backtrack on a feature that was tied to certain models, received criticism from the public… defended its position. Then later decided to add it to older models. I know this might seem lame… but this decision ruins how features will be dictated going forward.

 

[sigsegv]

Fix Apple’s obsession of square pixels first before thinking about 16:9 support on external monitor.

They can keep their square pixels.

The UI is scaled pretty much everywhere (maintaining aspect ratio) so this is just about where they put the black bars: at the sides of external, or the top/bottom of internal. Bury that option in settings somewhere, but people have been wanting it for years.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Unfortunately, this isn’t true when it came to disallowing editing and deletion of iMessages. Even after victim advocacy groups expressed concerns of potential abuse by perpetrators by deleting or editing their harassing messages, Apple didn’t give users a way to opt out. https://9to5mac.com/2022/06/15/imessage-edit-delete-button-issues/

To be fair, they were complaining about a beta. The story you link to was updated to mention that the recipient can see any edits.

 

[Homme]

It's less powerful in multicore.

Plus some 2018 Pros had 6GB, and all 2020s did.

Only 1 of the 4 capacities of the 2018 pros have 6GB

and even despite the multi core of A12X being better, like the M1 iPad Air those 64GB Models won’t get stage manager due to the multi swap thing on iPadOS 16 ( since it is required on 128GB and up)

 

[Luna Murasaki]

Wew lad what a thread.

When did this place become the Apple haters forum?

I lurked here long before I created my account. Seems to me it's been one at least for the past few years I've been reading it.

Apple: releases iPhone with no third-party apps.
Customers: we want third-party apps!
Steve Jobs: no, web apps are fine.
Developers: we want third-party apps!
Steve Jobs: no, build web apps!
Apples internal development team: we want third-party apps!
Steve Jobs: no, web apps!
Five months later:
Steve Jobs: fine, have your third-party applications!
AppStore: becomes the gold standard for application distribution, helps the iPhone an iPod touch grow exponentially.
But sure, they shouldn’t listen to their customers, developers, and internal teams

Don't forget the part where now Europe wants to criminalize not also adding the code/UI needed to install locally-run apps from something other than the App Store, and to give those non-vetted apps the ability to freely leave their sandbox so they can act as their own app stores.

From the same company that told us, “you’re holding it wrong”, and slowed down phones on purpose? Doubtful.

While I agree it was very dumb of them not to pop up some kind of box letting users know the phone had to be slowed down due to a failing battery, I think it's ridiculous how people are screaming "planned obsolescence" when the only reason Apple had this problem to solve in the first place is because they are supporting their old phones several times longer than any other company does. These are phones that would have been continually rebooting had Apple done nothing. Instead, they tried to think of a way to make them keep working rather than demand people give them more money for a new phone or a battery replacement. It was clearly a misguided gesture of goodwill to make their customers happy and eager to keep giving them money in the future, and not some conspiracy to get people to upgrade.

Totally with you on the "you're holding it wrong" business though. I think of stuff like this every time I hear another "this would never happen under Steve Jobs" comment.

Now expand dynamic island to iPhone 13.

Naturally this is entirely possible for them to do - it would just have to be very different. They could expand out the notch and print stuff below it in a way that would look ugly, strange, and graceless but would kinda work the same way. The thing is though, Apple just doesn't feel like doing that, and that's okay.

In the same way, they could totally add support for running iOS apps on Intel Macs instead of limiting it to ARM Macs. They'd just need to get developers to also compile them in x86 or create a reverse Rosetta 2 for Intel Macs that lets them run ARM binaries. They could 100% do this. But they don't feel like doing the extra work, and that's okay.

It seems obvious to me that this is why Stage Manager was not initially supported with older iPads. It's not that they couldn't make it work - it's that it would be too much trouble to write all the unique code needed to make this happen only for it to offer an inferior experience. They didn't want to bother and I really think they are under no obligation to do so.

When you buy a new device from Apple, there is an implicit promise that you will get support for new OS versions - and the security patches that come with that - for a reasonable length of time. I agree it's unacceptable when they break that like they did to the last buyers of PowerPC Macs, and like what they might soon do to the last buyers of Intel Macs. Beyond that, I don't think they have any moral obligation to work extra hard to add code that is only relevant to old devices operating on models they are moving away from.

I'm on the last iPad Pro not to have an M1 chip and will be stuck with it for some time. When I originally saw it would not support Stage Manager, I was certainly very unhappy but I was not angry at Apple for not giving me everything I want for free. There was no deliberate malice here where they somehow went out of their way to cripple my device. They just didn't go out of their way to support a frill on my device it did not have when they originally sold it to me.

I will agree though they could have offered more clarity about the issue. Now they have made themselves look like liars and I think that part is their fault.

 

[miamialley]

Does this not apply to the public beta 16.1?

 

[atomic.flip]

Does this not apply to the public beta 16.1?

Typically there is a one day delay between the developer and public beta releases... that is when betas are in late development. With new OS revisions (like 14-15) then there is usually a 5 - 6 week delay until much later in the beta cycle.

Example Schedule:

X.0 - dev beta 1

2 week gap

X.0 - dev beta 2

2 week gap

X.0 - dev beta 3

- X day(s) to one week gap

- X.0 - public beta 1 (often same build as dev beta 3)

1 to 2 week gap

X.0 - dev beta 4

- X day(s) to one week gap

- X.0 - public beta 2

1 to 2 week gap

X.0 - dev beta 5

- 1 to 2 days

- X.0 public beta 3

and so on. . .

It's a staggered release cycle... and its not set in stone. This is just an average what has occurred since 2008 (before there even were public betas).

 

[Tagbert]

Unfortunately, this isn’t true when it came to disallowing editing and deletion of iMessages. Even after victim advocacy groups expressed concerns of potential abuse by perpetrators by deleting or editing their harassing messages, Apple didn’t give users a way to opt out. https://9to5mac.com/2022/06/15/imessage-edit-delete-button-issues/

I was under the impression that editing a post still leaves the original for view so that a record of an agressive message is retained.

 

[atomic.flip]

Wew lad what a thread.



I lurked here long before I created my account. Seems to me it's been one at least for the past few years I've been reading it.



Don't forget the part where now Europe wants to criminalize not also adding the code/UI needed to install locally-run apps from something other than the App Store, and to give those non-vetted apps the ability to freely leave their sandbox so they can act as their own app stores.



While I agree it was very dumb of them not to pop up some kind of box letting users know the phone had to be slowed down due to a failing battery, I think it's ridiculous how people are screaming "planned obsolescence" when the only reason Apple had this problem to solve in the first place is because they are supporting their old phones several times longer than any other company does. These are phones that would have been continually rebooting had Apple done nothing. Instead, they tried to think of a way to make them keep working rather than demand people give them more money for a new phone or a battery replacement. It was clearly a misguided gesture of goodwill to make their customers happy and eager to keep giving them money in the future, and not some conspiracy to get people to upgrade.

Totally with you on the "you're holding it wrong" business though. I think of stuff like this every time I hear another "this would never happen under Steve Jobs" comment.



Naturally this is entirely possible for them to do - it would just have to be very different. They could expand out the notch and print stuff below it in a way that would look ugly, strange, and graceless but would kinda work the same way. The thing is though, Apple just doesn't feel like doing that, and that's okay.

In the same way, they could totally add support for running iOS apps on Intel Macs instead of limiting it to ARM Macs. They'd just need to get developers to also compile them in x86 or create a reverse Rosetta 2 for Intel Macs that lets them run ARM binaries. They could 100% do this. But they don't feel like doing the extra work, and that's okay.

It seems obvious to me that this is why Stage Manager was not initially supported with older iPads. It's not that they couldn't make it work - it's that it would be too much trouble to write all the unique code needed to make this happen only for it to offer an inferior experience. They didn't want to bother and I really think they are under no obligation to do so.

When you buy a new device from Apple, there is an implicit promise that you will get support for new OS versions - and the security patches that come with that - for a reasonable length of time. I agree it's unacceptable when they break that like they did to the last buyers of PowerPC Macs, and like what they might soon do to the last buyers of Intel Macs. Beyond that, I don't think they have any moral obligation to work extra hard to add code that is only relevant to old devices operating on models they are moving away from.

I'm on the last iPad Pro not to have an M1 chip and will be stuck with it for some time. When I originally saw it would not support Stage Manager, I was certainly very unhappy but I was not angry at Apple for not giving me everything I want for free. There was no deliberate malice here where they somehow went out of their way to cripple my device. They just didn't go out of their way to support a frill on my device it did not have when they originally sold it to me.

I will agree though they could have offered more clarity about the issue. Now they have made themselves look like liars and I think that part is their fault.

As a fervent supporter, proponent and a C-Level executive at multiple companies (in the past) where I had introduced Apple to Windows only ecosystems... I can 100% tell you that I am not only frustrated but quite frankly insulted by many of the decisions Apple has made over the past 3 years.

Dropping support for Ventura from so many Macs that are more than capable of handling most all of the features introduced in the latest (yet to officially be released) version of Mac OS... major slap in the face. They actually had the gumption to drop support for the MacPro 5,1 (which was already a very innovatively designed but under represented system.)

Increasing the price of the new Mac Pros to over 50-60K when fully kitted... no one in their right mind would invest in such a system that would ONLY run MacOS. (Or at least the applications would be extremely, extremely limited)

Dropping support for many iOS devices routinely for seemingly arbitrary reasons... it's been a practice I could understand from a certain perspective. For example: Certain devices simply would not be physically capable of supporting certain code, but then making the entire OS dependent on that code is a bit of an oversight... to say the least.

Bottom line is they have shown an increasingly limited tolerance to maintain support for legacy hardware and software. They've engaged in blatant feature abandonment and haven't really created a platform of stability but rather one of seeming chaos.

This is antithetical from what the company's direction was under Steve Jobs... and slowly but surely as the leadership changed, so has their entire approach.

This stage manager embarrassment is just one public slap in the face they could have easily avoided. I won't even comment on the state of iOS 16 and the new iPhones. It's genuinely tragic.

 

[svish]

Excellent! Happy that the previous generation iPad Pro now supports stage manager.

 

[_Spinn_]

This is a good move.

 

[coolfactor]

So the whole “older iPad Pros can’t handle stage manager” was just BS from apple?

So why did Apple say it was only for m1 they must have lied when they said they couldn’t bring it to older ipads

So much for it requiring the computational power of at least an M1...

Wow, sounds like theyre eating their words

Apple figured out how to deliver something that users were asking for, and that's a bad thing?

One thing is definitely true. Anybody that claims Apple was lying about this doesn't have an engineering brain cell in their body.

As an engineer myself, I totally understand the challenges that they faced, and eventually overcame, at least partially. This is GOOD for end users that bought the early iPads. Apple engineers listened and worked hard. We should be thankful, not trying to find ways to cast them in a dark light.

 

[amartinez1660]

What is the true limit? Why not the Air 4? RAM constraints? It’s difficult to explain this at this point. The Standard A12 cannot run it? How much RAM is really needed? Is 4GB not enough? 1st gen 12.9-inch iPad Pro? 2nd gen iPad Pros? What’s the real technical cutoff?

I reckon that the only iPad Pro that might be truly, technically inadequate to run it is the 9.7-inch iPad Pro, 2GB of RAM might actually be too little. As for the rest? Pro and non-Pros, I’m not sure. After Apple faltered on their explanation, I don’t think we can identify the true lower bound specs required.

Great questions, I hope one day someone somewhere manages to dissect or explain in depth any of this.
The thing is, contrary to what a lot of the stances here are, we truly don’t know what are all the limitations.

These devices from the get go weren’t really conceived to be external displays ready, it was a tablet in your hand at the conception… slowly they have been adding proper support for all those things with whatever they had like the AirDisplay compressed mirror stream.

There are a lot of complaints on this forum saying that “this is 2000s tech, this is BS”: I’m pretty sure some devices in the 80s had a 1Hz content refresh rate too, so that means that an older iPhone X should be able to do that right? Well, no, they had to add extra hardware for this (the Display Engine) on the 14 Pro lineup.

So I gather there must be similar constraints, especially today when there are millions of pixels on the screen all usually doing something. Example, at the end of the 90s some games could do 3D via software, but on 320x240 resolutions (~80000 pixels) to be somewhat useful and quite simpler graphics (Half Life 1 comes to mind, I played it that way). Try that again, today, on a 5K screen (5120x2880, ~15 million pixels, ~200 times more than 320x240): a graphics card, and related hardware dedicated just for that, is the way to make it work today at least.

Remember how windows 3.1 could leave blocks and tiles of ghost sections of UI? Maybe Apple was dealing with similar issues… maybe the refresh rate couldn’t be kept, who knows, those millions of pixels states and info has to be kept track of somewhere, and they are tons. Maybe the MacMini A12Z had extra supporting hardware not available on the iPad or maybe they could ignore straining it as it wasn’t running on battery.

The conclusion is, me neither know if it is Apple’s BS (maybe it is, maybe it isn’t or just in part) or if it is definitely existing hardware limitation or fake software blocking (could be)… anybody here claiming 100% confidence of any side of that, without dissecting how or why, is nothing short of taking an arrogant stance.

 

[Luna Murasaki]

As a fervent supporter, proponent and a C-Level executive at multiple companies (in the past) where I had introduced Apple to Windows only ecosystems... I can 100% tell you that I am not only frustrated but quite frankly insulted by many of the decisions Apple has made over the past 3 years.

Dropping support for Ventura from so many Macs that are more than capable of handling most all of the features introduced in the latest (yet to officially be released) version of Mac OS... major slap in the face. They actually had the gumption to drop support for the MacPro 5,1 (which was already a very innovatively designed but under represented system.)

Increasing the price of the new Mac Pros to over 50-60K when fully kitted... no one in their right mind would invest in such a system that would ONLY run MacOS. (Or at least the applications would be extremely, extremely limited)

Dropping support for many iOS devices routinely for seemingly arbitrary reasons... it's been a practice I could understand from a certain perspective. For example: Certain devices simply would not be physically capable of supporting certain code, but then making the entire OS dependent on that code is a bit of an oversight... to say the least.

Bottom line is they have shown an increasingly limited tolerance to maintain support for legacy hardware and software. They've engaged in blatant feature abandonment and haven't really created a platform of stability but rather one of seeming chaos.

This is antithetical from what the company's direction was under Steve Jobs... and slowly but surely as the leadership changed, so has their entire approach.

This stage manager embarrassment is just one public slap in the face they could have easily avoided. I won't even comment on the state of iOS 16 and the new iPhones. It's genuinely tragic.

Looks like the 2010 Mac Pro 5,1 enjoyed 8 years of being able to officially run the latest OS, and the 2012 Mac Pro 5,1 enjoyed 6. That seems pretty typical of Apple's support policy going back well into the Jobs era.

I do agree that the current Mac Pro's pricing is a joke. I also dread how long that thing is going to be supported for the poor customers who buy it now when it is the last Intel Mac Pro and its replacement is imminent. But that fear is based on what Apple did to their loyal customers during the last architecture transition, and that was under Steve Jobs.

Also something that happened under Steve Jobs? The Mac OS X Snow Leopard bug that permanently deleted all of people's user data.

 

[hovscorpion12]

I am incredibly happy that non-M1 iPad owners will get to experience stage manager. I am unhappy that they removed [to be added later] Monitor support.

to piggyback on the claims of an Oct press release. It now makes sense. There is nothing that the iPad Pro hardware can do given that the OS is half baked. Even if the iPad Pro comes with the M2 chip w/24GB RAM, wireless charging, 4TB and final cut, iPadOS 16 will have 50% of the announced features at launch.

 

[Digitalguy]

Great questions, I hope one day someone somewhere manages to dissect or explain in depth any of this.
The thing is, contrary to what a lot of the stances here are, we truly don’t know what are all the limitations.

These devices from the get go weren’t really conceived to be external displays ready, it was a tablet in your hand at the conception… slowly they have been adding proper support for all those things with whatever they had like the AirDisplay compressed mirror stream.

There are a lot of complaints on this forum saying that “this is 2000s tech, this is BS”: I’m pretty sure some devices in the 80s had a 1Hz content refresh rate too, so that means that an older iPhone X should be able to do that right? Well, no, they had to add extra hardware for this (the Display Engine) on the 14 Pro lineup.

So I gather there must be similar constraints, especially today when there are millions of pixels on the screen all usually doing something. Example, at the end of the 90s some games could do 3D via software, but on 320x240 resolutions (~80000 pixels) to be somewhat useful and quite simpler graphics (Half Life 1 comes to mind, I played it that way). Try that again, today, on a 5K screen (5120x2880, ~15 million pixels, ~200 times more than 320x240): a graphics card, and related hardware dedicated just for that, is the way to make it work today at least.

Remember how windows 3.1 could leave blocks and tiles of ghost sections of UI? Maybe Apple was dealing with similar issues… maybe the refresh rate couldn’t be kept, who knows, those millions of pixels states and info has to be kept track of somewhere, and they are tons. Maybe the MacMini A12Z had extra supporting hardware not available on the iPad or maybe they could ignore straining it as it wasn’t running on battery.

The conclusion is, me neither know if it is Apple’s BS (maybe it is, maybe it isn’t or just in part) or if it is definitely existing hardware limitation or fake software blocking (could be)… anybody here claiming 100% confidence of any side of that, without dissecting how or why, is nothing short of taking an arrogant stance.

While nobody here can state things in an official capacity, or guarantee anything, iPads have been supporting external monitors for many years, including some forms of extended display. Just not a desktop UI like stage manager on an external display. Even iPads dating back 10 years ago could be connected to external displays with a proper Apple adapter.
The issue is where to set the bar. The A12Z Mac Mini could not run 5k/6k displays, 4k was the limit. And if you have to run an iPad display at the same time the limit is probably something even lower, like 1440p although, I wouldn't be surprised if external 4k would still be feasible by A12X/Z. But as I said above, that's not enough for Apple monitors. But Apple lovers cannot accept that Apple might remove the option altogether just because those iPads could not run their monitors. Or that there must be a different reason than M1 not being able to run 2 6k displays for M1 being limited to only 1 external.
At best they will say that it's normal that for Apple anything below 4k is unacceptable. Truth is many users would be more than happy even with using their 2018/2020 iPad with a 1080p monitor....

 

[bcortens]

Apple figured out how to deliver something that users were asking for, and that's a bad thing?

One thing is definitely true. Anybody that claims Apple was lying about this doesn't have an engineering brain cell in their body.

As an engineer myself, I totally understand the challenges that they faced, and eventually overcame, at least partially. This is GOOD for end users that bought the early iPads. Apple engineers listened and worked hard. We should be thankful, not trying to find ways to cast them in a dark light.

They most likely imposed those restrictions on themselves though - we know that far weaker hardware than the A12 can run multi windowing OSs just fine which suggests that they may be too limited in engineering resources to devote time to things any more.

I still hope they scrap the messy UX that is stage manager and go back to the drawing board.

 

[bcortens]

While nobody here can state things in an official capacity, or guarantee anything, iPads have been supporting external monitors for many years, including some forms of extended display. Just not a desktop UI like stage manager on an external display. Even iPads dating back 10 years ago could be connected to external displays with a proper Apple adapter.
The issue is where to set the bar. The A12Z Mac Mini could not run 5k/6k displays, 4k was the limit. And if you have to run an iPad display at the same time the limit is probably something even lower, like 1440p although, I wouldn't be surprised if external 4k would still be feasible by A12X/Z. But as I said above, that's not enough for Apple monitors. But Apple lovers cannot accept that Apple might remove the option altogether just because those iPads could not run their monitors. Or that there must be a different reason than M1 not being able to run 2 6k displays for M1 being limited to only 1 external.
At best they will say that it's normal that for Apple anything below 4k is unacceptable. Truth is many users would be more than happy even with using their 2018/2020 iPad with a 1080p monitor....

I don't even care if it gets the resizable windows, I just want to be able to use the full screen (even if it is at a scaled down resolution, say 1440p on a 5K screen). Just let me put something on an external screen and not have it be blown up with 2cm tall buttons >.<

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I lurked here long before I created my account. Seems to me it's been one at least for the past few years I've been reading it.

It’s Apple’s penchant for continually focusing on those that have the largest number of device purchasing opportunities in front of them added to the fact that, while they have world class products, they have never required billions per year in the world to buy them… only a tiny sliver of the over 6 billion folks in the world… in order to make impressive profits.

Through the years, Apple designs products for some segment of the population that, at that time, they deem potentially profitable IF they succeed. For those Apple’s focusing on, it feels like an uncanny ability to deliver JUST what they want! When, in reality, those folks simply happen to be in the group that likes what Apple’s releasing enough to make Apple profitable. As time moves on, Apple continues their focus on the ever changing “current new customers” but to those that find themselves outside that group, it could feel like a betrayal. Not only that, because Apple’s not focused on selling any more than several million individual units a year, the fact that a customer drifts OUT of the focus area doesn’t matter as much if that customer is replaced 1:1 with a brand new customer (for the next 18 years or so?). Even better if they obtain multiple new customers because they’ve focused so well on the “current new customer”.

So, the longer Apple exists, the larger the group of “no longer focused upon” group will become. And, there will always be a portion of that group that will be more than happy to tell folks of the “Apple that used to be.” Fortunately for Apple, it will fall on the ears of those that are thinking “What are they talking about? This is the perfect product for me!”. And, in time, they too may find themselves telling tales of the “Apple that used to be” while the next newest group is wondering “What’s up with them?”.

 

[meboy]

Who cares. Terrible feature anyways.

 

[imnotthewalrus]

I am in the same boat, so I hope this isn’t the case. Shouldn’t the A14 with 4GB be fine if they are putting Stage Manager on the A12X Pros? I bought the Air 4 in 2020, so it’s just over 2 years old….seems like it should get Stage Manager. But, who knows at this point!

Same here. In fact my 24th payment is due in a couple of weeks. I'm not concerned with external monitor, but Stage Manager "for iPad" would be nice. The 4th Air is becoming the modern version of the iPad 3.

 

[Digitalguy]

Same here. In fact my 24th payment is due in a couple of weeks. I'm not concerned with external monitor, but Stage Manager "for iPad" would be nice. The 4th Air is becoming the modern version of the iPad 3.

My guess is that the 2022 iPad will get the same internal specs as the air 4, and no stage manager, and that device will be much newer....

 

[groove-agent]

My iPad Pro is my favourite device and Apple has done a great job at improving the experience via iPadOS. However it still takes a back seat to my MBP because it wont run Pro apps. They need to merge all OSes now that they’re all on Apple Silicon.

 

[Marswarrior462]

Same here. In fact my 24th payment is due in a couple of weeks. I'm not concerned with external monitor, but Stage Manager "for iPad" would be nice. The 4th Air is becoming the modern version of the iPad 3.

I thought the 2020 iPad Pro was the modern version of the iPad 3