New Mac Pro upgradability.

[flat five]

Apple has sold the cards from their standard configs before.

Apple might continue that if enough folks convince Apple they will step up and buy cards.

i'm sure apple already knows whether or not enough customers will buy additional cards..

it seems like they will and it seems like it will be worth it to apple..
if someone can buy a base quad now then put a 6core processor in it next year then the following year, add some 7,1 mid level gpus.. well, i think there are enough people that would follow that route to make it viable.. and apple sells a $6k 6core..
business wise, it just seems to make sense..

 

[G4DP]

it's hard to come up with a logical scenario as to why apple won't allow for and even encourage people to upgrade their gpus on this thing..

spend 4k on a computer.. in 3 years spend 2k on new gpus.. in two more years, repeat cycle.

That makes it 5 years between MacPro purchases. Longevity of product life is not top of Apples priority list anymore. If it were then everything would be user replaceable - even on the laptops and mini.

In an ideal world Apple would want everyone to fall into the trap of upgrading to a new machine every three years.

 

[flat five]

That makes it 5 years between MacPro purchases. Longevity of product life is not top of Apples priority list anymore. If it were then everything would be user replaceable - even on the laptops and mini.

In an ideal world Apple would want everyone to fall into the trap of upgrading to a new machine every three years.

i'm sure they would like that and as genius* as apple is at marketing/selling stuff, i don't think they can magically force that type of sell onto it's buyers (basically saying increased costs of machine at double turnover rate).. i personally couldn't do that and i do feel i fit somewhere in the middle as far as a targeted macpro buyer goes..
i think it's somewhat important/relevant to remember that most people (well, all of the people i know) using a mac pro also have a mbp in the mix.. apple is still getting pro user's money during their non_desktop_buying time via other products.


*not necessarily being used as a compliment.

 

[MacVidCards]

How about the 'fact' (totally lacking any evidence what so ever) that if one GPU card fails you have to buy two replace it. In other words, a board with no failure what so ever is required to be thrown away.

There goes a 1/3 of your 2/3's.

Apple is selling them in identical pairs. There are far more "we will make more money by selling in volume" reasons for that than any technical one. Just because they aren't selling the config doesn't mean it won't work. When 64GB DIMMs show up the nMP probably won't have a problem with them even though the Apple "tech specs" says there is a 64GB cap. ( Tech Specs weren't technically true on current ones with folks with 128GB installed).

There are a few more, but that is the most blatant fib of the bunch.

I'm sorry that you have such trouble understanding.

I didn't lie, you just aren't getting my point. Perhaps read more slowly?

1. flat5 had a 7300 die, he needed the computer running again.

2. He was faced with 2 choices, replace 7300 with another 7300 or upgrade to a 8800

3. He decided to take advantage of the opportunity and UPGRADED.

4. When 8800GT died, same choice and again he UPGRADED.

5. If he had a nMP and ONE card died in 2 years, he could buy ONE replacement or IF HE WANTED TO UPGRADE HE WOULD HAVE TO BUY TWO(2).

6. This applies to both UPGRADES. To UPGRADE he only had to buy ONE card. With nMP, replacing one each time to keep costs down leaves you at end of 5 years with 7 year old GPUs. The equivalent of trying to get any work done today with a 7300GT. So, in order to upgrade twice LIKE HE DID BEFORE...He would HAVE TO BUY 2(TWO) CARDS EACH TIME.

7. If he didn't choose to upgrade and only replaced the SINGLE DEAD CARD, he would keep computer running for a lower cost, but be hamstrung with ancient GPU tech.

8. Do you understand now? Or do I need to write a 1000 word essay to further clarify?

----------

not sure exactly.. whatever it is that causes the screen to look similar to this for a while prior to complete blackout or failure to boot.


Image
(not my image)

Common failure mode for both.

BGA solder joints under GPU lose contact due to cracked solder.

Can be reflowed in your oven. Cards with screen artifacts like that have better than 50/50 odds of coming back to life. If you search my past posts for this I give instructions and several people have saved themselves replacing 1 graphics card. (1 instead of 2)

 

[flat five]

I'm sorry that you have such trouble understanding.

I didn't lie, you just aren't getting my point. Perhaps read more slowly?

1. flat5 had a 7300 die, he needed the computer running again.

2. He was faced with 2 choices, replace 7300 with another 7300 or upgrade to a 8800

3. He decided to take advantage of the opportunity and UPGRADED.

4. When 8800GT died, same choice and again he UPGRADED.

5. If he had a nMP and ONE card died in 2 years, he could buy ONE replacement or IF HE WANTED TO UPGRADE HE WOULD HAVE TO BUY TWO(2).

6. This applies to both UPGRADES. To UPGRADE he only had to buy ONE card. With nMP, replacing one each time to keep costs down leaves you at end of 5 years with 7 year old GPUs. The equivalent of trying to get any work done today with a 7300GT. So, in order to upgrade twice LIKE HE DID BEFORE...He would HAVE TO BUY 2(TWO) CARDS EACH TIME.

7. If he didn't choose to upgrade and only replaced the SINGLE DEAD CARD, he would keep computer running for a lower cost, but be hamstrung with ancient GPU tech.

8. Do you understand now? Or do I need to write a 1000 word essay to further clarify?

not that this changes your point really but the chain of events did go a little different..

7300 breaks at a little less than 2yrs.. i couldn't find another 7300 for sale anywhere.. i couldn't find anything that would actually work in the computer.. took it (on a train) to soho and they couldn't fix it (other than leaving it there, let them order a 8800 and install, then pick it up).. ended up ordering one and swapping it myself.. the computer was down for a week.

the 8800 broke at around 5yrs.. replaced it with the cheapest available card which the shop down the street had in stock.. the 5770.

point being, the upgrades weren't happening for the upgrade aspect.. more like the upgrades were side affects of replacing broken hardware with the cheapest available replacements.

Common failure mode for both.

BGA solder joints under GPU lose contact due to cracked solder.

Can be reflowed in your oven. Cards with screen artifacts like that have better than 50/50 odds of coming back to life. If you search my past posts for this I give instructions and several people have saved themselves replacing 1 graphics card. (1 instead of 2)

i still have the 8800gt.. not sure if it's any use to anyone but i'll give it to whoever for free if they pay shipping.

 

[barkmonster]

Are you going to let us all in on your insider source? Let us know EXACTLY how you can definitively make this statement!

They don't need an insider source because the following components are proprietary and can't be user-upgraded:-

The GPUs
The PCIe Flash

By incrementally, it's obvious they mean that components can be upgraded as faster/higher capacity equivalents become available.

I still have a G4 tower from 2002 for just this reason because I was able to:-

Add USB 2.0 via a PCI card
Add a 250Gb ATA HDD in addition to the 60Gb HDD it came with
Add a PCI SATA card
Add a 750Gb SATA HDD and a 2.5" SATA SSD using the card and the 2.5" space in the Zip drive bay.
Replace the GPU with a faster one with more VRAM

Because of this, when I moved to the Mac Mini, a simply fitted the SSD in the Optical bay and used Migration Assistant to move the OS off the G4 after cloning it on the G4 to the 250Gb HDD I had in there and then my media library that lives on the 750Gb HDD went externally.

With a Mac Pro, you can only upgrade the RAM although I imagine 3rd party PCIe SSDs will eventually show up seeing as how close the Apple ones are to Samsung PCIe SSDs.

Also, someone buying a Mac Pro to use with their existing PCIe cards would first have to make sure they have Thunderbolt aware drivers in some circumstances and then spend another £1,000+ adding support for them via an enclosure if they have internal drives to migrate over at the same time.

 

[iBug2]

6. This applies to both UPGRADES. To UPGRADE he only had to buy ONE card. With nMP, replacing one each time to keep costs down leaves you at end of 5 years with 7 year old GPUs. The equivalent of trying to get any work done today with a 7300GT. So, in order to upgrade twice LIKE HE DID BEFORE...He would HAVE TO BUY 2(TWO) CARDS EACH

How do we know that one needs to upgrade both cards in Mac Pro? Since it is not running in crossfire what is the harm of buying one new card?

 

[slughead]

How do we know that one needs to upgrade both cards in Mac Pro? Since it is not running in crossfire what is the harm of buying one new card?

Good point. We don't know that for sure.

It'd be hilarious if someone were running a D300 and then a R9 290X... though the PSU would likely cry (if Apple's spec page is right).

----------

it's hard to come up with a logical scenario as to why apple won't allow for and even encourage people to upgrade their gpus on this thing..

spend 4k on a computer.. in 3 years spend 2k on new gpus.. in two more years, repeat cycle.

Is it really that hard? Under your scenario, they spend 6k in 3 years (4k machine + GPU upgrade). Under a disposable computer situation, they spend 8k in 3 years (2x 4k machines).

That is, unless you want to be using 5 year old components in 3 years (the FirePros will have their 2nd birthday next month) :X

 

[MacVidCards]

How do we know that one needs to upgrade both cards in Mac Pro? Since it is not running in crossfire what is the harm of buying one new card?

I guess it could work that way.

I don't think it's likely but who knows?

Might create some thermal issues with one side of thermal core getting 2 or 3 times the heat that other GPU side is.

If the machine could work this way, it sure would be nice of Apple to offer single and double GPU BTO upgrades. So, you could spec only one up to D700.

It has seemed from the way the Apple text has gone that they come as a matched pair.

 

[LongSticks]

Got to disagree!

They don't need an insider source because the following components are proprietary and can't be user-upgraded:-

The GPUs
The PCIe Flash

By incrementally, it's obvious they mean that components can be upgraded as faster/higher capacity equivalents become available.

I still have a G4 tower from 2002 for just this reason because I was able to:-

Add USB 2.0 via a PCI card
Add a 250Gb ATA HDD in addition to the 60Gb HDD it came with
Add a PCI SATA card
Add a 750Gb SATA HDD and a 2.5" SATA SSD using the card and the 2.5" space in the Zip drive bay.
Replace the GPU with a faster one with more VRAM

Because of this, when I moved to the Mac Mini, a simply fitted the SSD in the Optical bay and used Migration Assistant to move the OS off the G4 after cloning it on the G4 to the 250Gb HDD I had in there and then my media library that lives on the 750Gb HDD went externally.

With a Mac Pro, you can only upgrade the RAM although I imagine 3rd party PCIe SSDs will eventually show up seeing as how close the Apple ones are to Samsung PCIe SSDs.

Also, someone buying a Mac Pro to use with their existing PCIe cards would first have to make sure they have Thunderbolt aware drivers in some circumstances and then spend another £1,000+ adding support for them via an enclosure if they have internal drives to migrate over at the same time.

Sorry the only way they can't be changed or upgraded is if they are soldered in.

The rest is up to samsung et all on the flash drive and whether nvidia etc decide to invest in offering a pro card to fit. Certainly Apple flash drive upgrades for capacity etc should be possible.

Also you're negating the opportunity of buying a system with D300 for use with current software requirements at initial purchase and then maybe upgrading To d500 or 700 at a later date if required within the life of the machine and subject to actual power PSU requirements etc!

I know you are going to throw back Apple premium etc on the simple upgrade path, but you buy into the form factor knowing this going in. The rest is up to the market and how the new form factor is received and sales take off........unless it's all soldered and we don't know that. Hence your comment is in my view, partially false. This is why I have a problem with your use of Can't and MVC's previous statement.

 

[barkmonster]

Sorry the only way they can't be changed or upgraded is if they are soldered in.

The rest is up to samsung et all on the flash drive and whether nvidia etc decide to invest in offering a pro card to fit. Certainly Apple flash drive upgrades for capacity etc should be possible.

Also you're negating the opportunity of buying a system with D300 for use with current software requirements at initial purchase and then maybe upgrading To d500 or 700 at a later date if required within the life of the machine and subject to actual power PSU requirements etc!

I know you are going to throw back Apple premium etc on the simple upgrade path, but you buy into the form factor knowing this going in. The rest is up to the market and how the new form factor is received and sales take off........unless it's all soldered and we don't know that. Hence your comment is in my view, partially false. This is why I have a problem with your use of Can't and MVC's previous statement.

I'm simply stating that at present, the means to upgrade the GPU and PCIe SSD with aftermarket alternatives isn't an option but there seems to be very similiar PCIe SSDs from Samsung already that could lead to suitable upgrades of at least the SSDs. It was nothing to do with price, simply present availability of potentially upgradadable modular components of a non-standard nature.

 

[LongSticks]

I do understand!

I'm simply stating that at present, the means to upgrade the GPU and PCIe SSD with aftermarket alternatives isn't an option but there seems to be very similiar PCIe SSDs from Samsung already that could lead to suitable upgrades of at least the SSDs. It was nothing to do with price, simply present availability of potentially upgradadable modular components of a non-standard nature.

I am playing devils advocate to a certain degree. But what you are and others are unable to accept is that this is a radical new form factor. I understand that the legacy MP users are strongly against it and use past upgradability as a fact to trash something new and radical.

I have to say that it's obvious that there currently no upgradable components for this form factor as you say, because the current market is legacy products.

Unfortunately if your requirement is internal upgradability from the legacy market, the nMP is not on your Xmas list. But as with iMac, rMBP etc Apple was always going to do something radically different if they maintained a pro machine. It was always the Jobs/Ive raisin d'être. In my view, with out that pairing Apple would no longer doing anything, the world would be PC and MS led.

 

[iBug2]

I guess it could work that way.

I don't think it's likely but who knows?

Might create some thermal issues with one side of thermal core getting 2 or 3 times the heat that other GPU side is.

If the machine could work this way, it sure would be nice of Apple to offer single and double GPU BTO upgrades. So, you could spec only one up to D700.

It has seemed from the way the Apple text has gone that they come as a matched pair.

Well they obviously come as a matched pair but I think that's only a sales ploy. As long as the thermal output of the new card is within the limits of the Mac Pro I don't see why only one couldn't be upgraded.

 

[barkmonster]

I am playing devils advocate to a certain degree. But what you are and others are unable to accept is that this is a radical new form factor. I understand that the legacy MP users are strongly against it and use past upgradability as a fact to trash something new and radical.

I have to say that it's obvious that there currently no upgradable components for this form factor as you say, because the current market is legacy products.

Unfortunately if your requirement is internal upgradability from the legacy market, the nMP is not on your Xmas list. But as with iMac, rMBP etc Apple was always going to do something radically different if they maintained a pro machine. It was always the Jobs/Ive raisin d'être. In my view, with out that pairing Apple would no longer doing anything, the world would be PC and MS led.

You call established and accepted standards legacy as if you're privy to some inside information about precicely when SATA and PCIe will be entirely replaced by MiniPCIe and Thunderbolt 2. You're clearly just voicing an opinion.

Firewire was always better than USB/USB 2.0 due to it's throughput, duplex operation and lack of CPU overhead. Therefore Apple and audio interface companies adopted it as a standard connection and it hasn't been replaced with Thunderbolt overnight or even after 3 years.

Displayport is becoming an established standard for higher than HD connections on displays.

PCIe SSDs are becoming more commonplace although the exact connector used can vary.

I agree, the Mac Pro is a radical design but to think PCIe can be replaced with Thunderbolt in 100% of situations and people want to throw away their investment in mass storage in favour of expensive Thunderbolt solutions that are nothing more than a bridging chipset for standard SATA 6Gb/s drives is flat out naive.

If everything someone currently uses is simply Firewire and SATA based. Inexpensive adapter and USB 3.0 based JBOD enclosures can make migrating from an existing Mac Pro no issue at all if the 2013 Mac Pro offers enough of an increase in power for their requirements. Dual drive enclosures are under £60.

 

[flat five]

Is it really that hard? Under your scenario, they spend 6k in 3 years (4k machine + GPU upgrade). Under a disposable computer situation, they spend 8k in 3 years (2x 4k machines).

That is, unless you want to be using 5 year old components in 3 years (the FirePros will have their 2nd birthday next month) :X

i'm not arguing what you're saying.. i could just as easily come up with a sales scenario which leads to a user buying a new computer every 2 years.. a scenario which apple would like even more..

my point im trying to make is that people only have so much money and won't (can't) just follow any pricing scheme apple decides to put into play.. it's more like apple needs to figure out how much money each tier of their customers can actually spend then extract the maximum amount from them..

and i just feel (this argument is all about feel/opinion as i have no business at all stating this type of stuff as fact).. i just feel apple can extract more money by selling upgrades at $1000 every 18months or so as opposed to trying to get $4000 every 3 years..

if everybody followed the path of buying a new computer every 3 years then yes, apple will make more money that way.. but i just don't think everybody (or even 1/2 the customers) will do that.. whereas a lot more people would be willing and able to upgrade their gpu/cpu/ssd/ram/etc at some point during the computer's longer lifespan of say 5 years.

 

[slughead]

If the machine could work this way, it sure would be nice of Apple to offer single and double GPU BTO upgrades. So, you could spec only one up to D700.

It's much cheaper for the supply line to give consumers fewer choices. Limiting BTO configurations lessens the room for error and reduces the amount of (American) workers needed to build the things.

Also, more than a few users would opt to pay a lot less for having only one GPU, and Apple probably isn't paying much for those FirePros and gleefully enjoying pocketing what they're charging for them--forcing people to buy something with a high profit margin that they'd like to do without... Think Different.

 

[OS6-OSX]

It's much cheaper for the supply line to give consumers fewer choices. Limiting BTO configurations lessens the room for error and reduces the amount of (American) workers needed to build the things.
Also, more than a few users would opt to pay a lot less for having only one GPU, and Apple probably isn't paying much for those FirePros and gleefully enjoying pocketing what they're charging for them--forcing people to buy something with a high profit margin that they'd like to do without... Think Different.

I think you and MVC have crossed the line! You two are exposing Apple for what they really are. There is no room on this forum for this! I suggest you call over the waitress and order a round of refreshing Apple flavored Kool-Aid!

 

[MacVidCards]

I think you and MVC have crossed the line! You two are exposing Apple for what they really are. There is no room on this forum for this! I suggest you call over the waitress and order a round of refreshing Apple flavored Kool-Aid!

Yes, I feel just awful about it. Tim Cook has no pants !!!! There, I said it. Kool Aid please .

----------

. i just feel apple can extract more money by selling upgrades at $1000 every 18months or so as opposed to trying to get $4000 every 3 years..

if everybody followed the path of buying a new computer every 3 years then yes, apple will make more money that way.. but i just don't think everybody (or even 1/2 the customers) will do that.. whereas a lot more people would be willing and able to upgrade their gpu/cpu/ssd/ram/etc at some point during the computer's longer lifespan of say 5 years.

Ahh, still clinging to the past. Upgrades are not part of the new plan.

At least you've conditionally accepted paying $1,000 to purchase a $200 renamed GPU, this is moving you out of nightmare customer category. But didn't you look for $200 choices when yours died? Wonder where those $200 choices will come from?

 

[flat five]

Ahh, still clinging to the past. Upgrades are not part of the new plan.

At least you've conditionally accepted paying $1,000 to purchase a $200 renamed GPU, this is moving you out of nightmare customer category. But didn't you look for $200 choices when yours died? Wonder where those $200 choices will come from?

past gpu requirements for me were that they ran openGL tasks fairly well and that's that.. a higher dollar card wouldn't have given me any better performance because my openGL requirements were way less demanding than my cpu requirements (i.e.- model performance suffered due to cpu bottlenecks long before i can max out a gpu)..

this may or may not change over the next year or two but, if new programming can place a lot more dependence on high end gpus for performance, i'll be far more willing to spend more $ on them.

if my openCL application remains at it's current implementation as a gpu accelerated 'hybrid renderer' instead of placing all of it's calculations on the gpu alone, i'll be perfectly fine staying in the lower to mid grade gpu realm.

re: "upgrades are not part of the plan" ..again, it just makes no sense to me why they would completely lock this thing down and what you get at time of purchase is what you get for the life of the computer.. i really do feel they stand to make a lot of money on upgrades-- especially when they're in control of the supply with less money going to third parties.. at the very least, we'll all know these particular answers soon enough.

 

[tuxon86]

re: "upgrades are not part of the plan" ..again, it just makes no sense to me why they would completely lock this thing down and what you get at time of purchase is what you get for the life of the computer.. i really do feel they stand to make a lot of money on upgrades-- especially when they're in control of the supply with less money going to third parties.. at the very least, we'll all know these particular answers soon enough.

Mmmmm... Presently looking at the other product that Apple sells.... iPhone, iPad, iMac, mbp, mba... Yeah I guess upgradability is WAY up there in apple design... /sarcasm

 

[AidenShaw]

Mmmmm... Presently looking at the other product that Apple sells.... iPhone, iPad, iMac, mbp, mba... Yeah I guess upgradability is WAY up there in apple design... /sarcasm

<truth>
Nobody should buy the TrashCan Pro and expect to upgrade it - outside of upgrading the RAM to the 64 GiB limit that Apple lists.

Even expecting to be able to bump it to 128 GiB using the 32 GiB DIMMs already on the market is risky. The hardware may support it, but Apple's BIOS may say no....

(honest people don't need to close the <truth> tag)

 

[flat five]

Mmmmm... Presently looking at the other product that Apple sells.... iPhone, iPad, iMac, mbp, mba... Yeah I guess upgradability is WAY up there in apple design... /sarcasm

ha.. seriously, i do understand what you (and others) are saying.. they're sealing up everything- i see that. (though i think there may be some other decent reasoning behind it besides painting it completely into evil corp. turf)

the thing with this computer is that it's double the investment of a mbp.. 5-10x investment of the others.. i think the rules may change a bit once you go beyond a certain price in how long a buyer will expect to use it.

anyway, throwing all that stuff aside for a minute.. throw out any preconceived slants regarding upgradability and simply look at the new design.. to me, access to the inside and access to the individual components once you're inside looks more friendly than anything they've done before (that i can think of).. even moreso than the current mac pro.. its design looks as if the designers expect people to be digging around in there.

 

[MacVidCards]

ha.. seriously, i do understand what you (and others) are saying.. they're sealing up everything- i see that. (though i think there may be some other decent reasoning behind it besides painting it completely into evil corp. turf)

the thing with this computer is that it's double the investment of a mbp.. 5-10x investment of the others.. i think the rules may change a bit once you go beyond a certain price in how long a buyer will expect to use it.

anyway, throwing all that stuff aside for a minute.. throw out any preconceived slants regarding upgradability and simply look at the new design.. to me, access to the inside and access to the individual components once you're inside looks more friendly than anything they've done before (that i can think of).. even moreso than the current mac pro.. its design looks as if the designers expect people to be digging around in there.

Is this comic relief ?

They list RAM as being user upgradeable. And you can dust the exterior. You are permitted to open it for purposes of admiring it's fine finish and see if anyone tossed wadded up paper in the fan.

They didn't use Torx bolts to make it easy to take apart.

 

[flat five]

They didn't use Torx bolts to make it easy to take apart.

right.. they used torx bolts because they're sick of people showing up to the genius bar with stripped phillips head screws talking about "i tried to change my hard drive in my laptop but accidentally cutting this wire and stripping these screws".. realistically, to make a decently user friendly upgradeable laptop, the thing would have to be twice the size.. the older laptops which were more upgradeable weren't exactly friendly.. far from it actually.. i think these types of situations have more to do with locking the user out as opposed to anything else..

anyway, to me, the torx heads show that they're expecting people to unscrew/reuse those screws.. they're way better than using phillips heads (or slotted or rivets or solder for that matter)

add- also look at the size of those screws compared to what they're actually holding in place.. they're way bigger than they need to be.. but they're that size because they're easier for someone to hold / not lose.

 

[flat five]

i don't really know a trick to encourage you to look at this stuff from an unbiased standpoint.. but everything aside other than this question -> which of these cpus appear easier to replace?

-OR-