New Mac Pro upgradability.

[MacVidCards]

I'm sorry, I don't see Apple eager to have people switching parts out.

How much has Apple received from you between 2006 and now for your 1,1?

You have done everything you could to avoid paying any additional money.

But now you think paying $1,000 for GPU upgrades is a good idea and claim you would do it?

Your claims fly in the face of your own past behavior.

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i don't really know a trick to encourage you to look at this stuff from an unbiased standpoint.. but everything aside other than this question -> which of these cpus appear easier to replace?


YouTube: video

-OR-


Image

Have you ever replaced a CPU?

Look at those pics again.

The nMP one appears to be upside down. So the 1,000,000 tiny pins are on the surface that is held down with what looks like 8 screws. 1,000,000 tiny little easily bent pins which means the edges of that asembley have the 1,000,000 tiny contacts held to PCB.

So, to answer your question, the CPU on 2009-12 MP looks MUCH easier to service.

Do you think before you type this stuff?

 

[flat five]

I'm sorry, I don't see Apple eager to have people switching parts out.

How much has Apple received from you between 2006 and now for your 1,1?

You have done everything you could to avoid paying any additional money.

But now you think paying $1,000 for GPU upgrades is a good idea and claim you would do it?

Your claims fly in the face of your own past behavior.

no.. not necessarily. but i will spend more on gpus at initial purchase.

So, to answer your question, the CPU on 2009-12 MP looks MUCH easier to service.

then another question(s)-- why are there screws there to begin with? why aren't there screws on any other mac's processor (that i'm aware of)

Do you think before you type this stuff?

usually.. yes

 

[MacVidCards]

no.. not necessarily. but i will spend more on gpus at initial purchase.



then another question(s)-- why are there screws there to begin with? why aren't there screws on any other mac's processor (that i'm aware of)

I'm going to give you a FREE piece of advice.

Only post about stuff you have actual knowledge or understanding of, will avoid moments like this.

The top CPU you have pictured is removed by simply moving the metal spring arm over and lifting it out. Can replace at that point in under 20 seconds. Line up tab and complete switchover in those 20 seconds. All electrical connections made in that time.

The nMP one is obviously upside down so that heatsink faces central core.

The 8 screws would appear to make this much like a DP 2009 machine, where correct screw tightening is crucial and a wrong turn burns up a $400 CPU board and $1K CPU.

So you have proven the OPPOSITE of what you set out.

If you knew anything about Mac CPUs you would have compared to 2009 Dual CPU, and you still would have been wrong, just not quite as wrong.

 

[flat five]

correct screw tightening is crucial and a wrong turn burns up a $400 CPU board and $1K CPU.

so why aren't those screws on an iMac? cheaper boards and cpus or something? less worry about damage?

So you have proven the OPPOSITE of what you set out.

i didn't set out to prove anything.. i'm just pointing out the obvious is all.. it's obvious this machine is designed to be user serviceable beyond the ability to change ram.

 

[MacVidCards]

so why aren't those screws on an iMac? cheaper boards and cpus or something? less worry about damage?



i didn't set out to prove anything.. i'm just pointing out the obvious is all.. it's obvious this machine is designed to be user serviceable beyond the ability to change ram.

Avoid posting about CPU swaps until you have done one.

FWIW, I have previously referred to the single CPU 2009-12 swap (your top photo) as being easy enough for a "drunk" or "blind" monkey. I can't recall which one exactly, but I'm sure about the "monkey" part. Easier than switching RAM to some extent.

 

[flat five]

The top CPU you have pictured is removed by simply moving the metal spring arm over and lifting it out. Can replace at that point in under 20 seconds. Line up tab and complete switchover in those 20 seconds. All electrical connections made in that time.

it's not a picture.. it's a video.. doesn't seem like 20 seconds from that point.. looks pretty messy too.

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Avoid posting about CPU swaps until you have done one.

and avoid looking at the pictures of the new mac pro and realizing how accessible the components are and how simple it appears to remove/replace them.

 

[MacVidCards]

it's not a picture.. it's a video.. doesn't seem like 20 seconds from that point.. looks pretty messy too.

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and avoid looking at the pictures of the new mac pro and realizing how accessible the components are and how simple it appears to remove/replace them.

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=18133023&drunken+monkey#post18133023

Please, PLEASE take a moment and look at images of what a Xeon CPU looks like.

Now imagine it upside down.

Imagine the heatsink UNDER it.

Imagine the pins on that little clip.

Imagine getting all 8 screws tightened without crushing a pin.

AND BTW, pretty sure that Apple will invalidate APplecare if you fiddle with them, that's how eager they are to have you work on them.

I mean, imagine if someone who had NO IDEA HOW CPUs CONNECT OR HOW DELICATE THEY WERE started busting out the Hex wrenches that they work on their Pontiac with? They could be lulled into a false sense of security and ruin a new 12 core CPU?

Please explain what you believe will be the procedure to remove that CPU?

 

[flat five]

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=18133023&drunken+monkey#post18133023

lol.. i think we're talking about two different things.. i'm just saying that when i look at pictures of the new mac, it looks like you can mess with it.. you're talking about 2009 mac pros and drunk monkeys ###

the good thing about this argument is there's an end in sight.. pretty sure we'll know the answers 2 days after it's released..

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Please explain what you believe will be the procedure to remove that CPU?

the tear down guys will show you.

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but i'll go ahead and assume the cpu is in a secondary shuttle.. the computer will remain vertical when changing it.

 

[flat five]

I mean, imagine if someone who had NO IDEA HOW CPUs CONNECT OR HOW DELICATE THEY WERE started busting out the Hex wrenches that they work on their Pontiac with? They could be lulled into a false sense of security and ruin a new 12 core CPU?

right.. you're getting it but not even realizing it..
kind of stupid to expect the general population to have precision tools and be capable of working with delicate connections.. maybe only 10% of people will actually attempt it.

to get 50% of people to do it, let them use the tools that they use on a pontiac and make it pretty hard to mess up.. that's what it looks like they've done here.

those screws are practically begging to be unscrewed.. if you give a kid a handful of tools and a new mac pro.. she's unscrewing a gpu first thing.

 

[MacVidCards]

right.. you're getting it but not even realizing it..
kind of stupid to expect the general population to have precision tools and be capable of working with delicate connections.. maybe only 10% of people will actually attempt it.

to get 50% of people to do it, let them use the tools that they use on a pontiac and make it pretty hard to mess up.. that's what it looks like they've done here.

those screws are practically begging to be unscrewed.. if you give a kid a handful of tools and a new mac pro.. she's unscrewing a gpu first thing.

It certainly is refreshing that you don't allow your complete lack of practical experience or first hand knowledge keep you from posting long opinions.

And I'm certain that Apple designed nMP specifically for grade schoolers to feel comfortable enough to attempt upgrades and repairs.

Btw, I've replaced the CPUs in a 1,1 and a 3,1 and both Single and Dual CPU versions of 4,1.

Which replacement are you basing your opinions on?

 

[thekev]

I mean, imagine if someone who had NO IDEA HOW CPUs CONNECT OR HOW DELICATE THEY WERE started busting out the Hex wrenches that they work on their Pontiac with? They could be lulled into a false sense of security and ruin a new 12 core CPU?

Please explain what you believe will be the procedure to remove that CPU?

It's also likely that it will be a long time before 12 core cpus are available cheaply. The cheap components for 1,1s were largely due to servers hitting retirement age.

 

[flat five]

Which replacement are you basing your opinions on?

i'm basing my 'opinions' on the same exact pictures of the new mac as you are.. and it's not really much of an opinion to point out that these things are serviceable..

such a weird conversation in that i'm arguing FOR what you and many people around here desire in a computer.. the ability to modify it or upgrade it.. i'm saying you will be able to do this so you should be happy about that part..
then the people that want a serviceable computer are arguing ANTI this computer.

another irony is the one i said on the first page..
"the irony in all of this, if it plays out as I strongly suspect it will, is that all the current naysayer spec heads will be the people spending the most money on gpu upgrades whereas people like me (the nightmare customer) will buy new GPUs on an as needed basis (such as when their hardware breaks or is no longer supported)"

most of their sales will be from the same ilk i'm arguing against right now.

but come on mvc.. you out of all people on these forums should have legit insight into this-- how much does apple stand to make if they make easy_ish to replace parts (i.e.- increase the potential buyer pool), up the perception that gpus are to be sold in pairs, as well as control the supply line?

how much?

 

[barkmonster]

I think you and MVC have crossed the line! You two are exposing Apple for what they really are. There is no room on this forum for this! I suggest you call over the waitress and order a round of refreshing Apple flavored Kool-Aid!

I couldn't agree more. People with this mindset are quick to start justfiying their delusion with concerns over shareholder profit margins etc... instead of realising it's their current and future customers that count.

The very first Mac Pro had a BTO option of using 2Ghz Xeons instead of the 2.66Ghz CPUs to lower the cost to £1,400.

I imagine for a lot of users, trading the cost of the second GPU in the 2013 model for the BTO cost of a larger PCIe SSD or even a hex-core CPU is something they'd love to be able to do because they just want to hook up their existing displays and get on with whatever they use their current system for but on a system with more CPU power.

 

[slughead]

those screws are practically begging to be unscrewed.. if you give a kid a handful of tools and a new mac pro.. she's unscrewing a gpu first thing.

Are you seriously suggesting you have any idea whatsoever how to replace the CPU in the nMP??

I for one, think the CPU will be replaceable. I would never make the leap to say how easy/hard it will be. There are 100 things Apple could do to complicate the process from soldering in the motherboard leads (to save space, for instance) to soldering in the CPU itself.

We have no clue, and to say otherwise is insane.

Apple's clearly chosen to fart on users who want to upgrade, there's no reason to think they made it easy, except to say that computers that are easier to upgrade are usually easier to assemble as well... but we have no idea, and we'll just have to see.

Ridiculous.

 

[haravikk]

And I'm certain that Apple designed nMP specifically for grade schoolers to feel comfortable enough to attempt upgrades and repairs.

Are you proposing that that's a bad thing? Not sure what you mean here.
The new Mac Pro definitely looks like it should be surprisingly easy to repair for such a small machine… for repair shops with access to the specialist parts that is.

What that means for upgradeability though is completely uncertain; it's ultimately going to depend upon whether Apple thinks they can get away with just forcing people to replace the entire machine every few years or not. If enough people will do this then Apple is unlikely to offer any upgrades, but if enough users are going to hang onto their Mac Pros for some time, then Apple may just be tempted to release upgrade boards; even if they're fiendishly expensive, so long a they're a good amount less than the cost of a whole new Mac Pro then they'll be fairly compelling.

My main hope is that offering upgrade boards will be so easy for Apple (since they're making the parts anyway) that they'll go for it, though likely with an even larger premium than the parts gain when bundled within the Mac Pro package.

 

[slughead]

Are you proposing that that's a bad thing? Not sure what you mean here.
The new Mac Pro definitely looks like it should be surprisingly easy to repair for such a small machine… for repair shops with access to the specialist parts that is.

I think he was joking--saying that the CPU in the nMP may not in fact be replaceable by "kids with a bunch of tools" as flat_five said earlier.

My main hope is that offering upgrade boards will be so easy for Apple (since they're making the parts anyway) that they'll go for it, though likely with an even larger premium than the parts gain when bundled within the Mac Pro package.

It'll really all depend on what the market will bear. No half-way intelligent user is going to rely on the possibility that Apple will release upgrades in the future when they buy the nMP (unless they read the front page of MacRumors and misinterpret that article about GPU upgradability). Therefore the user who buys a nMP will likely be prepared to own a disposable computer.

It's hard to say how Apple interprets the market. Personally, I think Apple is making the Cube/20th Anniversary Mac mistakes all over again, time will tell though.

Upgrades will certainly hinder future sales, but at the same time, it could be seen as a form of price discrimination to minimize dead weight loss. The problem would be: limiting upgrades to those who would not have bought a new computer, and I don't know if they could do that..

 

[flat five]

We have no clue, and to say otherwise is insane.

we have plenty of clues.. it's pretty obvious you're simply ignoring them.. i wouldn't go so far to say you're insane for ignoring them but it's definitely funny.

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I think he was joking--saying that the CPU in the nMP may not in fact be replaceable by "kids with a bunch of tools" as flat_five said earlier.

that's not what i said.. but seeing how you can't see any clues as to whether or not this thing is serviceable, i don't expect you to have any clue about what i'm saying either..

 

[haravikk]

No half-way intelligent user is going to rely on the possibility that Apple will release upgrades in the future when they buy the nMP

Not saying they should, just that we don't know. The fact that all three boards seem like they should be dead easy to remove and replace makes it a possibility, but could be nothing more than a nice easy way for Apple's US factory to produce them with build-to-order options (no custom soldering etc., just slap in the right three boards, RAM and an SSD).

Even if they do offer upgrades, even just to let D500 machines be upgraded to D700's later on etc., then it's going to have some major Apple tax on top, probably even worse than previous official Mac Pro upgrades.

It's hard to say how Apple interprets the market. Personally, I think Apple is making the Cube/20th Anniversary Mac mistakes all over again, time will tell though.

This is actually one of the other advantages of Thunderbolt, or external connectors in general, namely that it's really simple to replace the computer in a setup. I mean, you could buy all your storage stuff now but just get a Mac Mini, and when you want a Mac Pro you just swap it in to the same setup. Still sticks to have to find ways to externalise stuff, but once you've done it then in some ways it's easier to upgrade. Only problem really is that without separate GPU upgrades at the very least then you can only upgrade the CPU and GPUs together.

Upgrades will certainly hinder future sales, but at the same time, it could be seen as a form of price discrimination to minimize dead weight loss. The problem would be: limiting upgrades to those who would not have bought a new computer, and I don't know if they could do that..

One possibility would be only offering the high-end options when the next generation hits, for example, offering a D500 upgrade pack, but only offering the same for D700s once the new Mac Pro v2 arrives.

These would appeal to people that can't afford the D700s initially, while those wanting the cutting edge probably got them to begin with, and might even just switch to the next generation if they can, thanks in part to the ease of just upgrading the machine I mentioned above.

I'm still not saying it's a definite thing to happen, just that the possibility is definitely there. I wouldn't personally count on any upgradability other than the RAM initially, and hopefully the SSD in future whenever OWC creates something.

 

[goMac]

I'd be very surprised if the CPU wasn't replaceable (even if such replacements aren't sanctioned.) You think when a CPU goes bad AppleCare is going to throw out the entire machine?

If anything, the CPU might be MORE upgradable. I could see Apple selling entire replacement CPU modules. Forget removing the CPU from that daughter card, Apple could just sell new CPU cards and GPU cards, and make the machine entirely modular. You could upgrade to next year's CPU socket. Nice advantage of having the CPU on a card.

Other upgradable components are know: RAM and SSD. GPUs are still unknown.

 

[JavaTheHut]

I would agree that the CPU would be serviceable, not to say APPL would endorse the user to make the swap. With a designed platform with such a high price tag it would be very wasteful... But you never know with APPL it shall be interesting once someone does the first tear down.

Who wants butter on their PoPcorn?

 

[tuxon86]

I'd be very surprised if the CPU wasn't replaceable (even if such replacements aren't sanctioned.) You think when a CPU goes bad AppleCare is going to throw out the entire machine?

If anything, the CPU might be MORE upgradable. I could see Apple selling entire replacement CPU modules. Forget removing the CPU from that daughter card, Apple could just sell new CPU cards and GPU cards, and make the machine entirely modular. You could upgrade to next year's CPU socket. Nice advantage of having the CPU on a card.

Other upgradable components are know: RAM and SSD. GPUs are still unknown.

They'll probably swap the whole board to save time and reduce human error. the question is: Will you be hable to purchase such board from Apple or a third party to do it yourself when your applecare runs out?

 

[AidenShaw]

What about thermals... and patents...

It seems that nobody has considered the issues of the thermal connection to the finned core.

If it's tricky to get a good thermal connection, DIY upgrades are unlikely. If it's simple, upgrade parts are more likely.

There's also an issue regarding patents - if Apple has patented the designs of the daughtercards or PCIe SSD, third party upgrades are unlikely unless Apple licenses the IP.

 

[deconstruct60]

You could upgrade to next year's CPU socket. Nice advantage of having the CPU on a card.

"next year's" memory isn't compatible with the current DIMM slots. It is the RAM and CPU that would have to be chucked.

All of these systems are assembled in a factory. Modular and assembled from parts are equivalent only in the broadest of definitions.

The GPU package and VRAM on GPU cards are fully embedded. The CPUs are coupled to the chipset and DIMM slots. The chipset is in turn coupled to the I/O sockets. That's alot of 'stuff' that isn't one the card.

 

[AidenShaw]

"next year's" memory isn't compatible with the current DIMM slots. It is the RAM and CPU that would have to be chucked.

All of these systems are assembled in a factory. Modular and assembled from parts are equivalent only in the broadest of definitions.

The GPU package and VRAM on GPU cards are fully embedded. The CPUs are coupled to the chipset and DIMM slots. The chipset is in turn coupled to the I/O sockets. That's alot of 'stuff' that isn't one the card.

So true. I realized a long time ago that memory has the shortest lifetime of any component of a system.

Paid through the nose for 32 MiB for a system, thinking that I'd be able to reuse it with the next.

Mistake, the set of DIMMs for 32 MiB wouldn't even fit in the DIMM sockets for the next CPU.

Rinse, repeat.

 

[flat five]

All of these systems are assembled in a factory. Modular and assembled from parts are equivalent only in the broadest of definitions.

thing is, we have a lot of other products and history to compare to.

all of the other macs are equally assembled from parts. (or often contain more parts- screens,batteries,etc)..computers that also require custom builds in the factories..

the history of the mac pro has an access latch.. this one does too. it's seemingly more easy to access as well as incorporates a safety trap (you must unplug the computer prior to opening it).. the shell has three features on it.. the i/o panel, the apple logo, and an access latch.. i highly doubt apple of all companies is going to put something that distinguishing on the outside of their designs simply so users can swap ram.. in other designs which allow ram swaps, access is usually via a bunch of small screws on the bottoms of the casings.. seems like they could of done the same thing with this computer-- flip it over, unscrew something on the bottom, add ram.

once you open it, all of the components look very accessible (though the cpu will require an intermediate step to gain access).. nothing looks harder to get to or more hidden than the previous design.. there look to be a lot of user friendly screws (improving on the last design-- the hard drive screws, while still friendly large heads, were of softer metal and easier to strip.. these torx are probably hardened steel.

point being- absolutely nothing about this new design says to me "sorry, we're cutting you off" --especially when compared to the old pro.. the new one actually looks easier/safer to get into and more navigable once your in there.. diagrams/pictures describing how to service it will be less confusing because the component layout has been simplified.. there's really no worry about unscrewing a wrong screw because the only screws available are the one's required to change parts..

if i never read these forums, i wouldn't have any reason to think twice as to whether or not this thing is at least equal to the past mac pro in terms of upgradability.. the only place i hear that kind of talk is around here but nobody really points out why they're saying it.