New Mac Pro upgradability.

[flat five]

Fair enough, though in my opinion there's less than a 1% chance that you'll be able to just go out and get replacement cards from Apple or a third party. I think you're going to have to take the unit in for service for such a fix. You may be able to find cards on ebay or similar sources, but they'll be scarce.

even then, that wouldn't be so bad.. I'm 4 stops from the w.vilage store and the nmp looks like I can just put it in a backpack and go get it fixed.. if it's under warranty, maybe they'll just switch out the entire unit.. I'm ok with that.
the problem arises with non warrantied units.. if they can put in a new gpu and send me on my way, that's cool. if they expect me to drop off the computer and pick it up next week, that's not cool.. if they expect me to buy a new computer, that's not cool either.
to me, it's both easier for them and easier for me
if they just sell the part I need and that's that. (and this is a point where to conversation starts splitting. in my mind, it makes more sense from all angles for apple to just sell the part.. but apparently, there's something apple has to gain in this scenario by not selling that part to me. what will they gain? I'm not going to walk out of there with a new computer at that point.. I simply won't and I truly believe most other people wouldn't.. so why wouldn't they sell me a part?)

 

[flat five]

Right now I can drive to Frys in Burbank. They have more than 100 GPUs there.

And just about EVERY SINGLE ONE of them would work in a Mac Pro running current OS. Card dies, drive to Frys, back up and running in 2 hours tops. Being me, I would then just write myself an EFI for further ease, but that isn't needed to get back to work.

Starting next month, literally NONE of them will work in the nMP. It will be Apple's way or......well, there won't be another choice.

Check out prices for iMac GPUs from DV warehouse. They may be outdated, 3 or 4 year old pulls, but they still hold nearly retail prices. Less choice & Higher prices. Win/win, if your name is Apple.

you're talking about hacked and non supported hardware. I get it that you're ok with that. it's totally fine but most (by far) aren't going to mess around with that stuff.

say your MagSafe plug goes bad.. you go to fry's and buy a new one. it's a similar arguement in that the adapter is a proprietary plug but that doesn't mean I have to order one from apple.. I can go to Staples and buy one and I'm completely uninterested in buying a 1/2 price plug then modifying/hacking it to work on my laptop while losing at least some functionality. (ie- the scenario you're trying to paint about how there's so many choices for upgrading a mp1.. I'm sorry but there aren't many supported choices.. it's very limited when comparing to a non apple system.. I don't really see any changes happening between the new mac and old one in this regard

 

[wallysb01]

look wally, i do understand you.. i feel that when i discussed with you earlier a somewhat subtopic, i was decently concise with the thoughts or whatever and i spoke directly to you about the things you spoke to me about.

something that may be missing from the equation though is that your involvement in the thread has been with me.. but for me, my involvement in the thread has been with 8 different people.. and no, we're not all talking about the same things.. there is no 'we're all just saying' to it.. you're all saying different things and i'm generally responding individually

I understand the confussion that sets in when responding to 8 people (on both the 1 side and on the 8 side), but I do think that these 8 people you're talking to are saying just about the same thing. They are just doing 8 different ways, with different levels of snark.

what i said to mvc earlier was at him, not you.. he and i (and tux and slug and a couple of others) speak more abrasively towards one another in many regards but don't confuse how i speak with them as to how i speak with you. and maybe don't be so quick to assume what you're talking to me about (fry's, applecare, downtime) is what anybody else is talking about.. but hey, if you want to start attacking me with a bunch of bs then feel free.. if you want to discuss the apparent upgradability of the new mac then feel free too.. i'd personally prefer the latter though..

Well, small life leason here I guess, but how you talk to others will impact how people you're not talking to, but are paying attention see you. So if you make some rather silly dismissal or ridicule of a point I agree with that, which just happened to be said by someone else, I'm going to think negatively of you and if I respond to you, that will come out.

Second, I gave up on the whole replace it at Fry's or some local Apple shop because its pretty clear you're just not getting it. While we don't know for sure you won't be able to do that (since, you know the machine hasn't been out for even a day yet), its pretty certain you aren't going to pick up the SSD or GPU at Fry's or NewEgg. Maybe you can get the SSD at OWC, what's looking less likely is that the GPU will be at OWC. And its almost certainly going to be the case that replacing those will void AppleCare. I highly doubt you're going to be able to take the nMP even to a large AppleStore in Silicon Valley (btw, I live a short drive from Apple HQ, so don't go off about living in Anytown, USA) and get the GPU swapped out in a day. That's rarely the way it works with the high volumn selling machines when a major component fails, what makes you think that will be the case for the lowest seller in Apple's line up?

Third, I'm not attacking you. The closest I came was saying "you're off your rocker here" and proceeded to try to explain why. I'll point out ridiculous behavior, call it as much, and explain why. If you can't deal with someone telling you how it is without feeling attacked and calling it BS, I suggest you get off the internet. People are generally far less kind than I am when they can't see you face to face.

 

[MacVidCards]

Hey, no worries, you can always get service parts.

Here's some fine ones, available to the public.

http://www.welovemacs.com/apmacproqu3b5.html

If you don't want to choke up $700 for a new 7300GT they graciously let you buy a used one for the bargain basement price of $500.

But I'm sure Apple is going to be super reasonable and price things fairly. After all, it's an upgrade able computer.

 

[slughead]

Right now I can drive to Frys in Burbank. They have more than 100 GPUs there.

And just about EVERY SINGLE ONE of them would work in a Mac Pro running current OS. Card dies, drive to Frys, back up and running in 2 hours tops. Being me, I would then just write myself an EFI for further ease, but that isn't needed to get back to work.

Starting next month, literally NONE of them will work in the nMP. It will be Apple's way or......well, there won't be another choice.

Check out prices for iMac GPUs from DV warehouse. They may be outdated, 3 or 4 year old pulls, but they still hold nearly retail prices. Less choice & Higher prices. Win/win, if your name is Apple.

You made me sad just now

----------

http://www.welovemacs.com/apmacproqu3b5.html

If you don't want to choke up $700 for a new 7300GT they graciously let you buy a used one for the bargain basement price of $500.

But I'm sure Apple is going to be super reasonable and price things fairly. After all, it's an upgrade able computer.

You made me REALLY sad just now.

 

[flat five]

I understand the confussion that sets in when responding to 8 people (on both the 1 side and on the 8 side), but I do think that these 8 people you're talking to are saying just about the same thing. They are just doing 8 different ways, with different levels of snark.



Well, small life leason here I guess, but how you talk to others will impact how people you're not talking to, but are paying attention see you. So if you make some rather silly dismissal or ridicule of a point I agree with that, which just happened to be said by someone else, I'm going to think negatively of you and if I respond to you, that will come out.

ok. got it. thanks for explaining. #

Second, I gave up on the whole replace it at Fry's or some local Apple shop because its pretty clear you're just not getting it.

i'm not getting what, exactly? you're telling me apple parts won't be available at fry's -- i get that.. but what's you're reasoning behind it?

i'm saying they will but my reasoning isn't "just because i think that's how it will be".. i'm just saying how it is currently (pointing out the obvious)

i can go to bestbuy and buy an ssd for a macbook air
i can go to frys and buy an apple supported replacement gpu for a mac pro
i can go to staples and buy a replacement magsafe adapter
i can go to walmart and get replacement lightning connectors
i can go to radio shack and get all sorts of apple specific connectors etc.

(or i can go to any of the computer specific/apple centric shops around here and get pretty much anything i want.. including the elusive airport card mvc keeps harping on about)

and all of this type of stuff has happened very recently (within the past couple of years).. from where i'm sitting, it appears apple is putting proprietary products in a much greater range of stores.. their products, and more specifically, their replacement products-- are becoming much easier to locate and buy..

but according to you (not just you), this trend will stop once the mac pro comes out? that's the part i'm not getting when you say frys wont sell parts..
i mean, why not? they do it now.. i'm just stating how it's currently done and that i see no reason why apple is going to just stop building the availability outlets they're currently building or already have in place.

if you have any actual insight into why apple is suddenly going to stop doing what they're currently doing then please share.. but if your argument is "apple won't sell parts at frys because i say so and if you don't believe me then you're just not getting it" -- well then, you're right.. i don't get it.. there's nothing to get.

 

[MacVidCards]

i can go to bestbuy and buy an ssd for a macbook air

I assume you mean 2008-10, the one that USES an industry standard SATA drive, not an Apple part. To get real Apple part needs to be from Service Provider. Or a 3rd party one from OWC.

i can go to frys and buy an apple supported replacement gpu for a mac pro

Uses an industry standard part, just needs a software file to work in Mac. You can buy 3rd party ones, NOT the Apple ones. Currently Apple only sends those to places like We Love Macs as Service Parts. So, UNLESS APPLE IS GOING TO CHANGE THEIR POLICIES....there won't be any GPUs at Fry's.

i can go to staples and buy a replacement magsafe adapter

Yes, you can probably buy a power cord for nMP there too. Great.

i can go to walmart and get replacement lightning connectors - nMP doesn't use these, does it?

i can go to radio shack and get all sorts of apple specific connectors etc. Specific....? But you don't feel like being specific at all.

 

[flat five]

buy a used one for the bargain basement price of $500.

it's funny seeing a used 7300gt.. i woulda thought they've all exploded by now.

----------

i can go to bestbuy and buy an ssd for a macbook air

I assume you mean 2008-10, the one that USES an industry standard SATA drive, not an Apple part. To get real Apple part needs to be from Service Provider. Or a 3rd party one from OWC.

i can go to frys and buy an apple supported replacement gpu for a mac pro

Uses an industry standard part, just needs a software file to work in Mac. You can buy 3rd party ones, NOT the Apple ones. Currently Apple only sends those to places like We Love Macs as Service Parts. So, UNLESS APPLE IS GOING TO CHANGE THEIR POLICIES....there won't be any GPUs at Fry's.

i can go to staples and buy a replacement magsafe adapter

Yes, you can probably buy a power cord for nMP there too. Great.

i can go to walmart and get replacement lightning connectors - nMP doesn't use these, does it?

i can go to radio shack and get all sorts of apple specific connectors etc. Specific....? But you don't feel like being specific at all.

the point wasn't so much about exact details of the example products.. the point is that they are apple replacement/upgrade products being sold in cheesy big box stores.. apple is not scared(?) to sell replacement products.. they want to sell that type of stuff and they're making a killing off it.

what apple doesn't want is for GenElec to sell lightning connectors without them getting their cut too.

----------

i can go to bestbuy and buy an ssd for a macbook air

I assume you mean 2008-10, the one that USES an industry standard SATA drive, not an Apple part. To get real Apple part needs to be from Service Provider. Or a 3rd party one from OWC.

(but yeah, probably.. i didn't realize mba had an industry standard ssd at some point)

 

[MacVidCards]

(but yeah, probably.. i didn't realize mba had an industry standard ssd at some point)

Oh wow, so while trying to prove YOUR point, you actually proved OUR's.

The only easily purchased and reasonably priced MB Air drive is the industry standard SATA one.

The proprietary Apple ones are pricey and hard to find.

Whoops.

 

[flat five]

Oh wow, so while trying to prove YOUR point, you actually proved OUR's.

no.. it's just that what year mba is nothing to do with it.. i'm pretty sure i could go to bestbuy and find another proprietary apple replacement/upgrade part and type it there instead.. the point is
best buy -> apple upgrade part

 

[MacVidCards]

no.. it's just that what year mba is nothing to do with it.. i'm pretty sure i could go to bestbuy and find another proprietary apple replacement/upgrade part and type it there instead.. the point is
best buy -> apple upgrade part

Wrongo.

As usual.

Here, try this.

"Whoops, I was wrong"

There, you don't have to type it, just copy & paste.

 

[flat five]

no.. it's just that what year mba is nothing to do with it.. i'm pretty sure i could go to bestbuy and find another proprietary apple replacement/upgrade part and type it there instead.. the point is
best buy -> apple upgrade part

(and look.. there's nothing bad about you going "ok, yes, i can buy upgrade parts at best buy".. that's the point and it's not arguable because it's a fact.. the fact is used to make a subsequent point.. the subsequent point is what i'm trying to communicate/discuss with you.. but if you get hung up on the factual point and battle me endlessly about that then 1-we're talking about two different things and 2-neither of us is communicating an idea to the other.. instead, we talk in circles)
#

----------

"Whoops, I was wrong"

what the hell. i admitted to you i was wrong about the mba thing.. look up there ##.

do you want me to admit i'm wrong again or something?

you're right about the ssd at best buy being for an older mba. i didn't realize they had standard drives at some point.

is that what you want to hear? does it change anything?



edit- i mean, you specifically quoted me admitting i was wrong.. now you're harping on about it and demanding i further admit the thing that you quoted me saying..
do you realize you're doing this? or is it just habit?

 

[tuxon86]

is that what you want to hear? does it change anything?

You can lead a horse to water...

Again as a reminder, The GPU in the nMP aren't industry standard, they're a proprietary format and so is the PSU, the CPU board and most probably the SSD. So again, where are you going to find those part to make the nMP USER servicable.

How about you stop trolling this thread and face up to reality.

 

[flat five]

The GPU in the nMP aren't industry standard, they're a proprietary format and so is the PSU, the CPU board and most probably the SSD.

and so is MagSafe and lightning connectors, and thunderbolt, and current supported gpus, and osx,.. i mean, whats your point?

because you sound as if you're trying to backup what i'm saying.. apple has lots of proprietary stuff currently and they want to further that mission.. their proprietary items are being sold in numbers unimaginable 10years ago..

proprietary ≠ not available

----------

So again, where are you going to find those part to make the nMP USER servicable.

probably tekserve or mikey's.. why?

 

[flat five]

You can lead a horse to water...

Again as a reminder, The GPU in the nMP aren't industry standard, they're a proprietary format and so is the PSU, the CPU board and most probably the SSD. So again, where are you going to find those part to make the nMP USER servicable.

How about you stop trolling this thread and face up to reality.

and hey @tux.. let me try to say this a different way.

if my computer broke tomorrow (say the 5770 blows).. i will walk down the street and buy a new one then install it. (mind you, it's the same manufacture and packaging (amd/apple) who will be involved with the nmp)..
do you follow me so far? that isn't an opinion.. it's exactly what i would do.
#
in two years from now, my gpu blows.. (amd gpu in an apple computer).. according to you, i will not be able to walk down the street and buy a new one then install it.


this is where some confusion is happening in the thread.. it's the area in between today part breaking and next year's part breaking.

what happens in between now and then which makes it to where i can no longer buy a replacement gpu? (again- same brands involved as ive previously been able to replace)

 

[MacVidCards]

You can lead a horse to water...

Again as a reminder, The GPU in the nMP aren't industry standard, they're a proprietary format and so is the PSU, the CPU board and most probably the SSD. So again, where are you going to find those part to make the nMP USER servicable.

How about you stop trolling this thread and face up to reality.

I would encourage anyone who feels that there is a troll in this thread to report that behavior to the mods.

Sadly, instead of a reasonable discussion, we have one person railroading the thread with nonsense.

 

[flat five]

I would encourage anyone who feels that there is a troll in this thread to report that behavior to the mods.

uhh.. the mods are reading the thread.

 

[tuxon86]

and hey @tux.. let me try to say this a different way.

if my computer broke tomorrow (say the 5770 blows).. i will walk down the street and buy a new one then install it. (mind you, it's the same manufacture and packaging (amd/apple) who will be involved with the nmp)..
do you follow me so far? that isn't an opinion.. it's exactly what i would do.
#
in two years from now, my gpu blows.. (amd gpu in an apple computer).. according to you, i will not be able to walk down the street and buy a new one then install it.


this is where some confusion is happening in the thread.. it's the area in between today part breaking and next year's part breaking.

what happens in between now and then which makes it to where i can no longer buy a replacement gpu? (again- same brands involved as ive previously been able to replace)

Man...

You can replace your 5770 because it's a standard pcie pc card... This has been explained to you ad nauseam. The nMP isn't a standard pcie pc card. It will be manuf by apple only. No one else will make it because it's a niche low selling product. No asus, msi, gigabyte, evga... Only apple for service centers only.

Apple won't sell one to you for the same reason they aren't selling gpu for their imac. They want you to buy applecare and have them do the work, and when your applecare is over they wan't you to buy a new machine and not do what people are doing presently with the mac pro, that is, upgrade them themselves and deprive apple from your hard earned cash.

Now since i've and plenty of other have also explained this to you now many times, any stupid comeback answer denying these fact will result in your post being flagged as trolling and i encourage other to do the same. Put up or shut up...

 

[slughead]

what happens in between now and then which makes it to where i can no longer buy a replacement gpu? (again- same brands involved as ive previously been able to replace)

All existing "Apple" upgrade cards (which aren't even made by Apple, AFAIK) will no longer work in the nMP.

 

[flat five]

You can replace your 5770 because it's a standard pcie pc card... This has been explained to you ad nauseam.

it's not a standard part.. apple will make money off of me buying that card.. apple made money when i originally bought the card.

if i went out and bought any old raedon, apple would not make money off the part.

it is an apple branded card being sold in an apple logo'd box (no ati whatsoever on the box).. you can argue me all you want about how that thing is exactly like suchandsuch except for a minor tweak but it doesn't matter (because i don't disagree with you in the least about it)

up to now, apple has only been able to put minor tweaks on the cards in order to monetize them.. but that allowed way too many slip through the cracks/hacks ..they've now gained much more control over the market.. they've made the switch from being able to make some money via authorized gpu sales -to- being able to make a helluva lot of money from authorized gpu sales.. and i bet they're pretty hard set on trying to sell these new gpus..

that's why the design is different.. it's different for the same reason you can't buy a 1.5v plug-it-all® and stick it in an ipod.. it's different for the same reason you can no longer buy an everyday WD drive and stick it in an iMac.. think different

----------

All existing "Apple" upgrade cards (which aren't even made by Apple, AFAIK) will no longer work in the nMP.

i completely agree with you.

 

[slughead]

i completely agree with you.

Your question was "Why wont you be able to buy an authorized user-upgrade for the nMP." The answer is: They wont exist for the nMP, for the same reason they don't exist for any other Mac (apart from the current Mac Pro).

Apple sold these cards because Mac Pro users were going to buy them anyway, as 3rd parties can (and did) make them. Apple sold a card with an incredible markup to a market where it couldn't sell another computer (as people were just upgrading their old computers).

Apple will not likely not sell upgrades for the nMP because 3rd parties will not be making them, in addition to the fact that they want this to be as disposable as the rest of their products. If third parties attempt to make compatible cards, Apple can either sue them under the DMCA or under whatever patent they hold their proprietary PCIe under.

This is also assuming the upgrade process is even remotely simple enough to be done by a standard user and that it wont void Applecare. I think the answer to both will be no, but that's the only part of this I'm not totally certain about here.

Apple is moving its one remaining user-upgradeable machine in line with its other 4 product lines.

 

[flat five]

(which aren't even made by Apple, AFAIK)

hardly any of this stuff is made by apple.. they buy parts, they buy technology, they put it in sweet packages, then sell it to you.

they want to (re)sell you computer parts.. they really really do.. that's a gigantic portion of their revenue.. most of you all's arguments are coming across to me as "apple won't sell you computer parts" ..it's borderline ridiculous if you ask me.. of course they will sell you parts.. they want and need(from a corp perspective) you to buy the parts..

why in the are some of you claiming they will not and/or do not want to sell you parts? for clarity- i'm not trying to chastise anyone with this question.. i'm simply asking for someone to explain why they won't sell them because the way i see it is that they definitely want to.. it's a complete 180 and the only reason given so far is "so they can sell computers every 3years"

i mean seriously? perceived or truth- it's out there.. apple is known for it's long term value and well built computers. that's a great image to have at your back if you're in sales..
there's no way in hell apple is going to purposely tarnish that perception by making their flagship product last only three years.. no way at all.. it's business suicide.

 

[flat five]

They want you to buy applecare and have them do the work, and when your applecare is over they wan't you to buy a new machine and not do what people are doing presently with the mac pro, that is, upgrade them themselves and deprive apple from your hard earned cash.

so when the 3 years is up and the user is ready to buy a new computer, what do they do with their previous computer?

sell it..

the new buyer then does what?

upgrades it..

upgrades it to the extent that it's possible apple can make a few thousand dollars more off a computer they sold three years ago.
do you see how that works?




(edit)- or, are you actually saying you feel the design is truly disposable? after three years it's of no real value to anyone and people won't buy used versions? they'll sit an collect dust til a user decides to throw them away.
i mean really, if this computer is designed to get me through the next 3 years only, i don't want it.. it should go at least twice that long if need be.. and within the next 6 years, i definitely think at least 5 individual components will break down.. especially when the thing starts getting older (beyond applecare).. i truly believe they have a much easier system in place for when that (very real) scenario starts to happen than "oh, you're going to have to drop it off at the shop when one of your gpus break".. really?? that sounds like a nightmare to me and everyone involved.. it should be an option but not the OnlY option.

 

[Cisco_Kid]

I would encourage anyone who feels that there is a troll in this thread to report that behavior to the mods.

Sadly, instead of a reasonable discussion, we have one person railroading the thread with nonsense.

smh

 

[LongSticks]

Maybe we are looking at this slightly too narrowly!

Most of the recent discussion on here and quite rightly has been based on the home and small business market modding existing systems to extend the life of there machines! The OP's original post after all. I agree that to a large degree with the extent of the pain being felt as Apple is setting sail from this market on to the corporate Pro market. It is unfortunate.

This is what Apple see's as the next market place for the Pro and this can be seen in the choice of Mari to demo the nMP at WWDC. Maybe!?

From MaximumPC:

According to JPR, the computer graphics hardware market will exceed $124 billion by 2016, up from an expected $107 billion in 2013, which itself is up from $93 billion in 2010.

"The sharp curtailment of household and corporate spending during the recession has resulted in a renewed desire among consumers and businesses to begin increasing spending on the latest graphics software and hardware platforms," JPR says. "We will see the development of traditional segments like CAD/CAM expand as new design approaches in automotive, aerospace, and architecture are adopted. Visualization, a market that has been almost dormant for the past few years, is now poised for significant growth due to the availability of more powerful and less expensive visualization technologies."

Workstations and monitors represent the largest areas of growth in the computer graphics industry, followed by mobile coming in a "strong third." As for gaming PC sales, JPR notes a 3.16 percent decline compared to last year, marking the segment as the lone exception. However, gaming PC sales will pick up over the coming years, growing from $17.79 billion in 2013 to $20.77 billion in 2016.

Personally I can see the Steam box biting in big time to the Gaming PC market as well, if it's as good as they say it is! Have a look at the Xi3 Piston to see how the gaming market and the internal cards may develop!

Maybe Apple are again ahead of the market a little, offering dual GPU out of the box and off of the shelf! The first "major" player to do so!