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New MacBook Air and Base 13-Inch MacBook Pro Have Same Keyboard as Higher-End 2019 MacBook Pros

I'll admit after having a 2005 MacBook Pro, a 2011 MacBook Air the first generation keyboard on the MacBook took some getting used to... but I must be in the minority with not having an issue with the keyboard.

That being said, I'm a little sad to see the MacBook go. It did seem a little odd with the redesign of the MacBook Air, though.
 
RamGuy said:
How widespread are these keyboard issues, really? I'm acting as local IT in my department, we have tons of MacBook 12-inches, tons of MacBook Pro 13-inches and a few MacBook Pro 15-inches all with these keyboards. None are newer than mid-2018 models so no one is having the latest revision of these keyboards either and all machines are being used daily, most of them a lot "on-the-road" and there has been zero issues with the keyboards?
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We have a few hundred at my workspace - a mix of 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019 models - and none have yet to experience a keyboard-related failure. *knock on fake wood*


Naaaaak said:
Apple is deathly afraid of doing the right thing because it would hurt their bottom line: full product recalls and replacements for every Mac with these defective keyboards. The $1 Trillion company would rather burn goodwill and reputation and insist its flawed design is correct than help the end-user.
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The only replacement they could offer at the moment would be another machine with the same keyboard so how would a replacement recall benefit the consumer? If their existing keyboard is working, now they risk getting a dud. And if their current keyboard fails within four years of purchase, they get it replaced at no cost.

And considering the nightmare that the 2016-2018 keyboard repairs are said to be (you evidently have to replace the entire top case), it's already hurting Apple's bottom line since it's likely an expensive part at cost.
 
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nexusrule said:
Same here. I am a designer in a very big tech company, +20.000 employees, we use this notebook and there is no
keyboard epidemics. And many are developers so the use they keyboard a lot. I am sure there is a tiny percentage of people affected by the issue, mass production doesn’t mean all pieces are created equal and probably a tiny fraction comes out of the factor weaker than the rest, causing this issue. I mean since 2016 Apple has sold tens of millions of this keyboard, even at 5% failure rate it would mean hundreds of thousands of broken machines and it would be very noticeable online, in mass media and so on.

But this is the internet and we are in the era where the internet is dumb, constant whiners, conspiracy theorist and haters are having the time of their life, let them enjoy it until it lasts :)
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Amazing to hear of these folks having huge installations and no issues. In 1.5 years the keyboard on my wife's 2017 MB Pro had to be replaced twice -- the second time a key jammed so badly that it stuck on and you had to use an external keyboard. At her new company, the IT guy said they've had tons of keyboard failures and they give out 2017 MB Airs (with scissor keyboard) unless you specifically request otherwise. When my wife hired on and got her MB Air she said, "Wow I can't believe how much easier it is to type on this thing!"
 
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CWallace said:
The only replacement they could offer at the moment would be another machine with the same keyboard so how would a replacement recall benefit the consumer?
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I was thinking along the lines of "everyone gets a replacement MacBook" when the scissor keyboard comes out, recalling all of the butterfly trash devices and smelting them down.

Microsoft replaced all Xbox 360s that had the red ring of death.
Samsung's recalled all Galaxy Note 7 devices.

In both cases, both companies identified the problem quickly, admitted fault, and did right by the customer at great cost to themselves.

Apple cares more about managing the PR of the crisis than doing right by the customer.

Apple knows the butterfly keyboard is trash and kept selling it for 4 years! They made the costs greater to themselves by not correcting it quickly and not admitting fault in their design.
Apple plays games and says "only a very-small, so-minor-we-can't-even-see-it number of users are affected" for legal reasons.
Apple is gambling that a repaired butterfly trash keyboard will last a couple years when you're ready to buy a new device before the repair inevitably fails.

Apple fans somehow think it's a fantastic company, don't mind scheduling genius bar appointments a week in advance sometimes, wait days without their device, and think everything is "just magic".

CWallace said:
And considering the nightmare that the 2016-2018 keyboard repairs are said to be (you evidently have to replace the entire top case), it's already hurting Apple's bottom line since it's likely an expensive part at cost.
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Most certainly. I'd imagine repeat repairs are the real killer, as they wipe out margins and lose money on a product.
 
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"Apple fans somehow think it's a fantastic company, don't mind scheduling genius bar appointments a week in advance sometimes, wait days without their device, and think everything is "just magic"."

In my experience, it's devoted Mac fans who have been the most critical of what's been going on. They've seen first-hand a decline in quality control and reliability -- and, after having spent a premium for their notebooks, they're ticked off!

Indeed, they have higher standards than many, if not most, computer users. They had come to expect unequaled performance and reliability and feel burned.

Anyone know if Ive directly or his fixation on thinness were the fundamental cause of the problem? It'd be fascinating to learn the story of how the butterfly keyboard was designed, who signed off on it, and who stuck with it even as reports of failures rolled in and broken notebooks were returned for fixing.

There will be a great investigative report one day -- and a classic business case study of how not to handle a design error.
 
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I was set to buy the new 7th Generation X1 Carbon but now I want to wait until the new scissor keyboards come out because that was the only thing keeping me from buying a new macbook.
 
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iMerik said:
I realize they keyboard may still suck, but I'm starting to regret my 2018 MacBook Air purchase 6 months ago.
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I owned the 2018 Air for exactly 22 hours. The FaceTime camera was complete crap. I video conference patients ~5hrs daily and the camera's quality was a deal breaker for me.
 
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H3LL5P4WN said:
I’m sure you’re right, I was just stating that CR and W? are trash and with CR in particular, anything they publish tends to be the exact opposite of the truth, especially when it comes to automobiles.
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I must be out of the loop, I’ve never even heard of “Which?” And CR seems to be past its expiration date; I remember my Dad wouldn’t buy anything without checking it first, but that was in the 70s/80s lol.
 
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I wonder how cheap I’ll be able to get a 12” MacBook in the near future.
 
RamGuy said:
How widespread are these keyboard issues, really? I'm acting as local IT in my department, we have tons of MacBook 12-inches, tons of MacBook Pro 13-inches and a few MacBook Pro 15-inches all with these keyboards. None are newer than mid-2018 models so no one is having the latest revision of these keyboards either and all machines are being used daily, most of them a lot "on-the-road" and there has been zero issues with the keyboards?

I do agree that they aren't the best to type own, you need a certain amount of travel and these are just not providing it. But in-terms of reliability we haven't had any issues. I understand that Apple has return programs for them, so there are obviously some issues but as soon as Apple starts with these return program's it seems like everyone and their mother starts to act like every single keyboard is bad which is clearly not the case.
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The MBP keyboard is just classic MR dogpiling. Have over 60 in our office, used daily and have had zero issues.
 
AppleHaterLover said:
I have 2017 nTB (2nd gen keyboard) with no issues.

Really this issue’s been MASSIVELY overblown
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I'd have to agree. I like the keyboard on the 2015 13" MBP I have but the keyboard on the air wasn't bad either.

The clicking is just something your going to have to get use to. I seriously doubt they'd update the MBA again.

Another reader brought up some good points as there using up the current supply of keyboards but there also testing out the newest style along with a new upper case which would mean a redesign

So you either buy now or sit back and wait to see if they do come out with a new keyboard / redesigned MBA and other models. There is a 2 week return period.
 
H3LL5P4WN said:
Neither of those are unbiased sources of data.
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It's a h3ll of a lot less biased than the echo chamber around here. I mention those two sources specifically because they tend to do regular surveys of a broad cross section of users, so they're getting feedback from people with and without problems. As opposed to the whoever-is-loudest-wins approach most of the media takes.

And before you throw an anecdote at me: yes, there have been keyboard failures, particularly with the 2016 model. Truth is though that there were keyboard failures before then too, we just weren't so sensitized to it. The only think close to statistical data I've seen comes from Apple Insider which indicates that by 2018 the failure rate was back to, or below, what it was in 2015. Problem is I don't know how broad based that sample was.

This "if it wasn't a problem we wouldn't hear so much about it" argument I keep hearing is thin, though. Most of the complaints I see in these forums trace back to people who don't even have a machine with the keyboard in question-- they just keep saying they won't get one because other people who don't have one keep saying they won't get one.
 
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It was not just a problem of faulty keyboard mechanizm but a result of quick (poor) validation under pressure and because Apple engineers integrated keyboard with top case while cost of replacement is still significant not just for end users but also for a company in case of potential problems and lawsuits. If Apple engineers are so genius they should to modify design so keyboard can be assembled / disassembled within few seconds using some clever unnoticable latch mechanism so they can cut the cost of replacement and production assembly. If the price of top case with keyboard wilk be eg less than $100 than decision about integration with top case make sense.
 
I was hoping somebody might be able to offer me some advice here. I'm starting my PhD on October 1st this year. I currently have a pretty knocked-about Dell XPS 13 which is three years old and out of warranty, and which has had three battery failures and one SSD failure since I bought it. As such, I'm really hoping to just buy a brand new Macbook in order to have the peace of mind that I'll have a solid, reliable laptop for my three years there. The 256GB i5 MacBook Pro is the one I'm most interested in.

My concern is the keyboard. I'm not too concerned about whether it'll break (I'll be living a 15 minute walk away from the nearest Apple Store and I'll also be getting AppleCare), but about whether it's going to fundamentally be a bad experience to spend extended periods typing on. While I'm at home in my flat, I'll probably hook it up to my monitor and use an external keyboard/mouse anyway, but I'll be spending lots of time using it at the library. For those who have spent time using this generation of the butterfly keyboards - what's it actually like to type on? I'm very used to fairly low-travel chiclet style keyboards (I currently use a Microsoft Surface Ergonomic keyboard), but I don't want to find that my fingertips get sore after a few hours of typing, as that's going to be the primary use for the machine. Especially anyone who's used to using chiclet keyboards like on the Dell XPS, HP Spectre or MS Surface lineup - setting aside reliability, what's the actual experience of them like?

Also, is it possible the Macbook Pro will be updated with non-butterfly keyboards before the end of the year? I really don't like the sharp angles of the Macbook Air (I find they cut into my wrists when I'm typing) and I do need the extra power for other tasks.
 
cosmo811 said:
I was hoping somebody might be able to offer me some advice here. I'm starting my PhD on October 1st this year. I currently have a pretty knocked-about Dell XPS 13 which is three years old and out of warranty, and which has had three battery failures and one SSD failure since I bought it. As such, I'm really hoping to just buy a brand new Macbook in order to have the peace of mind that I'll have a solid, reliable laptop for my three years there. The 256GB i5 MacBook Pro is the one I'm most interested in.

My concern is the keyboard. I'm not too concerned about whether it'll break (I'll be living a 15 minute walk away from the nearest Apple Store and I'll also be getting AppleCare), but about whether it's going to fundamentally be a bad experience to spend extended periods typing on. While I'm at home in my flat, I'll probably hook it up to my monitor and use an external keyboard/mouse anyway, but I'll be spending lots of time using it at the library. For those who have spent time using this generation of the butterfly keyboards - what's it actually like to type on? I'm very used to fairly low-travel chiclet style keyboards (I currently use a Microsoft Surface Ergonomic keyboard), but I don't want to find that my fingertips get sore after a few hours of typing, as that's going to be the primary use for the machine. Especially anyone who's used to using chiclet keyboards like on the Dell XPS, HP Spectre or MS Surface lineup - setting aside reliability, what's the actual experience of them like?

Also, is it possible the Macbook Pro will be updated with non-butterfly keyboards before the end of the year? I really don't like the sharp angles of the Macbook Air (I find they cut into my wrists when I'm typing) and I do need the extra power for other tasks.
Click to expand...

I have a 2017 model. When it works, it is fine. The low key travel takes getting used to, but you do adjust. While I think the feel of the keys is inferior to the previous 2015 design it is not a terrible experience. You probably won’t think much about it until you switch to your external keyboard. Then the difference will be jarring. It is for me when I use my old Air for something. I never much thought about the keyboards in previous models any more than I thought about the headphone jack. It was always there and always worked.

I’d likely not think much about this one except often times for me it hasn’t worked. Keys have failed. At first repair times were quoted at over two weeks. Total deal breaker for a machine used for work. Repairs have gotten faster, they did mine in 2 days. But still, when I used apple laptops for close to 20 years and never had these issues until now, 2 day turn around times aren’t anything to celebrate.

Again though. I could live with this keyboard if it didn’t fail mechanically. You’d just get used to its quirks like low travel and the touch-bar replacing F keys.
 
PickUrPoison said:
I must be out of the loop, I’ve never even heard of “Which?” And CR seems to be past its expiration date; I remember my Dad wouldn’t buy anything without checking it first, but that was in the 70s/80s lol.
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This, exactly this. I've doubted CR for a long time but the straw that broke the camel's back was factless idiocy that made up their 'worst vehicles list;' with myself and my parents owning several of their choices and not experiencing any of the issues they claimed to be be deal breakers.
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Analog Kid said:
It's a h3ll of a lot less biased than the echo chamber around here. I mention those two sources specifically because they tend to do regular surveys of a broad cross section of users, so they're getting feedback from people with and without problems. As opposed to the whoever-is-loudest-wins approach most of the media takes.

And before you throw an anecdote at me: yes, there have been keyboard failures, particularly with the 2016 model. Truth is though that there were keyboard failures before then too, we just weren't so sensitized to it. The only think close to statistical data I've seen comes from Apple Insider which indicates that by 2018 the failure rate was back to, or below, what it was in 2015. Problem is I don't know how broad based that sample was.

This "if it wasn't a problem we wouldn't hear so much about it" argument I keep hearing is thin, though. Most of the complaints I see in these forums trace back to people who don't even have a machine with the keyboard in question-- they just keep saying they won't get one because other people who don't have one keep saying they won't get one.
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You're missing the point, or my point rather.

I wasn't debating the keyboard failure rate, though I could toss your way that the one person I know who has owned several of these terrible, horrible, so bad they summon demons keyboards... has never had an issue with his.

I was simply saying consumer misreports and wut? are absolutely the last place a person should go to find accurate, real-world reviews of a product.
 
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