New MacBook Pro Models Include HDMI 2.0 Port Instead of HDMI 2.1

[Arsenikdote]

I think the Thunderbolt 4 spec actually supports 8K @ 60hz. DSC is needed for 60hz but not 30hz, but since Apple’s 6K XDR display already needs DSC, I don’t think that’s the issue. It’s more about display buffer size in hardware (is it only up to 6K?) and OS support.

So TB4 supports 8K @ 60Hz DSC which is not lossless I am assuming? So essentially they are just ditching some data to get it to support twice the refresh?

 

[frisbfreek]

So TB4 supports 8K @ 60Hz DSC which is not lossless I am assuming? So essentially they are just ditching some data to get it to support twice the refresh?

Right, DSC is not bitwise lossless, but it’s considered visually lossless (I believe they did tests where they switched frames back and forth and most people couldn’t tell the difference). I was weirded out by the “lossy” aspect of it at first, but that test sounds good enough for me if true.

 

[Arsenikdote]

Right, DSC is not bitwise lossless, but it’s considered visually lossless (I believe they did tests where they switched frames back and forth and most people couldn’t tell the difference). I was weirded out by the “lossy” aspect of it at first, but that test sounds good enough for me if true.

I guess it depends on the size of the display and your distance to the display. If this was a TV, I totally believe it since most people don't sit close enough to see 8K anyway. If this is a monitor, I find that harder to believe.

 

[mp8]

x

 

[Arsenikdote]

The XDR does NOT need DSC - it supports DSC, does not *need* it except if you...

Ummmm, then it needs it. Maybe the better way of putting it would be to say it doesn't USE it unless downstream devices use to much throughput?

 

[frisbfreek]

The XDR does NOT need DSC - it supports DSC, does not *need* it except if you want the USB-C ports on its back to do more than power stuff and have more than a tiny bit of bandwidth. In fact the older GPU cards in the MP7,1 don't do DSC and they work fine to drive a number of XDRs (I have a couple of those)

Ok fine, I’ll be more precise: it needs DSC if you want to support the full 6K resolution over 1 connection, since it’s too big for HBR3 uncompressed. This is regardless of whether you want to do more with the USB ports on the back.

Why doesn't the iMac Pro (2017) support the Apple Pro Display XDR at 6k resolution?

Apple's Set up and use Apple Pro Display XDR web page does not list the iMac Pro as a supported computer in this section: Pro Display XDR supports a resolution of 6016 x 3384 with 10bpc on thes...

apple.stackexchange.com

 

[InsideApple]

Almost everyone here here have been spinning around on their eyebrows over the past year because the new Macs didn’t have old ports.

And I don‘t care because I have Thunderbolt ports. And now it‘s cool to have it back, but for this price tag it should be the newest technology. Males zero sense. I would have loved if it stayed a 4th Thunderbolt port rather than this.

 

[FinestTreesInThe7Seas]

I completely disagree with the opinion that an extra Thunderbolt port would be preferable over HDMI 2.0. The HDMI port on the new Macbook Pros is great news for me, despite being HDMI 2.0. For me, my Macbook will always a secondary device connected to a monitor, meaning that my monitor's Displayport input is already being used, so my Macbook will always be forced to use an HDMI input.

I have 4 monitors with refresh rates ranging from 144hz to 200hz, and I cannot achieve over 60hz with my M1 when I convert Thunderbolt to HDMI using any adapters. MacOS just refuses to support anything beyond 60hz on HDMI, no matter how I configure it.

Even aside from this specific use-case, I hate carrying adapters around. If I need to plug my Macbook into a TV, or anything else, I don't want to need to bring an adapter.

 

[Arsenikdote]

I completely disagree with the opinion that an extra Thunderbolt port would be preferable over HDMI 2.0. The HDMI port on the new Macbook Pros is great news for me, despite being HDMI 2.0. For me, my Macbook will always a secondary device connected to a monitor, meaning that my monitor's Displayport input is already being used, so my Macbook will always be forced to use an HDMI input.

I have 4 monitors with refresh rates ranging from 144hz to 200hz, and I cannot achieve over 60hz with my M1 when I convert Thunderbolt to HDMI using any adapters. MacOS just refuses to support anything beyond 60hz on HDMI, no matter how I configure it.

Even aside from this specific use-case, I hate carrying adapters around. If I need to plug my Macbook into a TV, or anything else, I don't want to need to bring an adapter.

I know for some people having the extra HDMI port just already "there" is what they were looking for. Just not my use case.

BTW, when you said you can't get your M1 to work over 60hz....
I am finding a lot of people saying it works. I don't have a 120hz monitor to test with, otherwise I would just try it

Check out this Amazon review of LG 38WN95C-W Monitor 38" 21:9 Curved UltraWide QHD+ (3840 x 1600) Nanio IPS Display, Thunderbolt 3, 1ms Response Time, 144Hz Refresh Rate, NVIDIA G-SYNC, AMD FreeSync -White/Silver

MacBook Air M1, Mac Mini M1 are able to run at 144Hz with LG 38WN95C-W

www.amazon.com

And even a video of someone showing them doing it.....unless they are completely spoofing the video...

 

[ThomBoh]

I'm probably in the minority on this one, since this issue is just not as big a deal, but the biggest reason I'm disappointed with the lack of 2.1 on the new macbooks is because I use a 4K TV (LG CX OLED) double duty as a TV and computer monitor for work. I've found that text looks *horrible* when driving my CX with my 2019 16" macbook (and yes I have the TV set to PC mode). My (very limited) understanding of this is that the issue has to do with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling not being enabled in HDR due to HDMI 2.0's bandwidth limitation. It feels pretty silly that a top of the line laptop can't properly display text on a high end TV?

 

[anshuvorty]

I'm probably in the minority on this one, since this issue is just not as big a deal, but the biggest reason I'm disappointed with the lack of 2.1 on the new macbooks is because I use a 4K TV (LG CX OLED) double duty as a TV and computer monitor for work. I've found that text looks *horrible* when driving my CX with my 2019 16" macbook (and yes I have the TV set to PC mode). My (very limited) understanding of this is that the issue has to do with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling not being enabled in HDR due to HDMI 2.0's bandwidth limitation. It feels pretty silly that a top of the line laptop can't properly display text on a high end TV?

You are in the minority....very few people actually use a TV as their external monitor.

 

[dampfnudel]

This is what happens when Tim decides to do penny-pinching that’s actually detrimental to the consumer experience. Just because there are still companies in China that offer HDMI 2.0 on the cheap doesn’t mean you should shortchange your customers to save a few pennies on each unit. You’re still making a boatload of profit on each one.

 

[unoporfavor]

Completely a bandwidth based decision.

There are almost certainly 4 TB4/PCIe4 channels. The fourth one is likely split between the SD card and the HDMI port (and perhaps a couple other peripherals, we'll have to see what System Information says next week). HDMI 2.1 utilizes up to 48Gb, TB4 has a 40Gb channel. You do the math. Even with the SD card using only a lane or two, a lot of the HDMI 2.1 benefits wouldn't be there.

On a side note, this is a good example of "you get what you ask for". Instead of having the fourth TB4 port and the flexibility to do what we want with it, the dongle-haters have prevailed and now we lose the flexibility. SMDH.

'Almost certainly' - that's quite an opening assumption to validate a per-conceived proposition!

 

[ErikGrim]

Lots of people here unable to grasp what bandwidth limitations mean.

 

[dblissmn]

So TB4 supports 8K @ 60Hz DSC which is not lossless I am assuming? So essentially they are just ditching some data to get it to support twice the refresh?

Not quite; if Apple have persisted in their Intel-derived habit of having four, precisely four and no more than four thunderbolt channels on their "pro" laptops, the combined bandwidth of last-generation SDXC and HDMI 2.0 (as opposed to current spec SDUC and HDMI 2.1) is appropriately close to 40 gigabits. Effectively, instead of four TB 4, you've got 3 TB 4, an SDXC and an HDMI 2.0, and then they free up one more port under some use cases by adding the MagSafe which is a cheap way for them to avoid burning off an extra PCI channel. I guess we'll find out when Ifixit breaks one apart. There's a continuous scale from "bovine manufacturer behavior" to "killer customer value" and I am assuming this one sits somewhere in that grey area in between marked "value engineering."

 

[Arsenikdote]

Not quite; if Apple have persisted in their Intel-derived habit of having four, precisely four and no more than four thunderbolt channels on their "pro" laptops, the combined bandwidth of last-generation SDXC and HDMI 2.0 (as opposed to current spec SDUC and HDMI 2.1) is appropriately close to 40 gigabits. Effectively, instead of four TB 4, you've got 3 TB 4, an SDXC and an HDMI 2.0, and then they free up one more port under some use cases by adding the MagSafe which is a cheap way for them to avoid burning off an extra PCI channel. I guess we'll find out when Ifixit breaks one apart. There's a continuous scale from "bovine manufacturer behavior" to "killer customer value" and I am assuming this one sits somewhere in that grey area in between marked "value engineering."

Did you mean to quote a different post?

 

[clsmith]

I know for some people having the extra HDMI port just already "there" is what they were looking for. Just not my use case.

BTW, when you said you can't get your M1 to work over 60hz....
I am finding a lot of people saying it works. I don't have a 120hz monitor to test with, otherwise I would just try it

Check out this Amazon review of LG 38WN95C-W Monitor 38" 21:9 Curved UltraWide QHD+ (3840 x 1600) Nanio IPS Display, Thunderbolt 3, 1ms Response Time, 144Hz Refresh Rate, NVIDIA G-SYNC, AMD FreeSync -White/Silver

MacBook Air M1, Mac Mini M1 are able to run at 144Hz with LG 38WN95C-W

www.amazon.com

And even a video of someone showing them doing it.....unless they are completely spoofing the video...

What Thunderbolt 4 <> HDMI 2.1 cable can I use to achieve 144Hz with my 65” LG CX?

 

[Arsenikdote]

I am not sure what cable to use with that specific monitor or if it is possible. My post a little farther up on the page showed someone on Amazon showing screenshots from their monitor and a YouTube video showing a person doing it as well with a different display. Don't know if it works every time with every monitor, but it certainly CAN work Maybe you can glean some good info from those two examples?

 

[bobcomer]

Are PC laptops providing Thunderbolt at all?

Some. It's becoming more common. I have a Windows desktop with a thunderbolt port, and in shopping for a laptop yesterday, I saw thunderbolt mentioned on some.

 

[MacBH928]

does the other tb4 ports able to do 120Mhz and 8k? because if they do I see no problem here.

 

[sunny5]

This is because there aren't many HDMI 2.1 devices.

 

[frisbfreek]

does the other tb4 ports able to do 120Mhz and 8k? because if they do I see no problem here.

I don’t think it’s an issue if one of the tb4 ports can support 4K@120 and 8K@60 (through some adapter). But I think the assumption until proven otherwise (given past experience) is that this is not supported on any of the tb4 ports.

 

[Arsenikdote]

I don’t think it’s an issue if one of the tb4 ports can support 4K@120 and 8K@60 (through some adapter). But I think the assumption until proven otherwise (given past experience) is that this is not supported on any of the tb4 ports.

If these guys can do it with an M1, wouldn't it be sensible that you can do it with the M1 Pro/Max?

I think this will get answered real quick now that these are out in the wild!

MacBook Air M1, Mac Mini M1 are able to run at 144Hz with LG 38WN95C-W

 

[Adamantoise]

I completely disagree with the opinion that an extra Thunderbolt port would be preferable over HDMI 2.0. The HDMI port on the new Macbook Pros is great news for me, despite being HDMI 2.0. For me, my Macbook will always a secondary device connected to a monitor, meaning that my monitor's Displayport input is already being used, so my Macbook will always be forced to use an HDMI input.

I have 4 monitors with refresh rates ranging from 144hz to 200hz, and I cannot achieve over 60hz with my M1 when I convert Thunderbolt to HDMI using any adapters. MacOS just refuses to support anything beyond 60hz on HDMI, no matter how I configure it.

Even aside from this specific use-case, I hate carrying adapters around. If I need to plug my Macbook into a TV, or anything else, I don't want to need to bring an adapter.

Not sure if you're aware, but Type-C to HDMI cables exist.

So if you're just using it at a fixed location (like in your office) just buy the right cable and you won't have to worry about dongles.

To me the inclusion of the HDMI port was unexpected, I just didn't realize people still used it. I feel like the most deserving "legacy" port would have been a Type-A.

 

[Arsenikdote]

Not sure if you're aware, but Type-C to HDMI cables exist.

So if you're just using it at a fixed location (like in your office) just buy the right cable and you won't have to worry about dongles.

To me the inclusion of the HDMI port was unexpected, I just didn't realize people still used it. I feel like the most deserving "legacy" port would have been a Type-A.

Especially since Logitech refuses to make a USB C dongle for the MX series!! ?