New macbook pros finally made me switch away from mac laptops.

Surface Book trackpad is very close to all my modern Mac`s, not 100% the same, equally a good 95%, admittedly it`s a small differentiator, however the Surface Book brings a lot more to my workflow that Apple has no intention of even exploring, or exploiting...
Well, my experience mostly mirrors this article:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-surface-book-solving-the-wonky-trackpad-mostly/

The surface book trackpad is good, but is not Apple perfect. As a result the screen of the surface book is covered with fingerprints from where I was trying to do something like resize a window where the simultaneous click down and move your finger on the trackpad did not work, and I gave up and used my finger on the screen instead. The trackpad is fine for simply moving your cursor around but more complicated stuff it does not quite match Apple yet.

Just a casual observation:
Many PC laptop users carry around a mouse. I rarely find that true of Mac users.
 
also was there this much complaining when HP spectre came out? I just remember people saying OOO LOOK AT HOW THIN IT IS, HP BEATING APPLE AT THEIR GAME

only has usb-c ports
 
also was there this much complaining when HP spectre came out? I just remember people saying OOO LOOK AT HOW THIN IT IS, HP BEATING APPLE AT THEIR GAME

only has usb-c ports

When the dust settles, and the hate subsides, and the reviews come out - people will start to realize that MBP is an amazing achievment and a fantastic computer - and that nothing else like it is on the market.
 
First time poster, long time reader.

So, like many I was utterly disappointed by the new Macbooks. My 2012 Macbook Air died a month ago, seemed like good timing. Sadly, as many know, the new ones are ridiculously over priced and use old components. I was angry for a while, but I thought I'd share a constructive solution.

If you are not an iOS developer (see below) the solution is quite simple. Vote with your wallet.

This is coming form a long term Apple user. Even I got fed up. My first mac was a Titanium Powerbook, then a 12" iBook, the very first iPod (with many different models later on), an 17" iMac, the aluminum macbook, a 21" iMac, and finally a 11" inch Macbook Air and a 27" Imac. I even recommended the hardware to others. I did my part ;). But enough is enough. Vote with your wallet.

There are plenty of laptops from other manufactures which are good and portable. The Dell XPS 13 is an example (small footprint, light, has normal USB ports, 1 Thunderbolt 3 port, SD-card reader etc and up to date internals for a better price). I am personally not a big fan of the tiny bezels, I think they overdo it. Some protection from the background distraction around the screen is beneficial. My personal choice is the new Razor Blade Stealth, a 12.5" ultrabook, with the option to connect an external GPU. Very light, same build quality (all aluminum) as macbooks, and a good price (starting at 999) with Kaby Lake and 16GB of RAM by default. That's the config I would have expected in the Macbook Pro, with or without that gimmicky touchbar.

As far as the OS is concerned, I get the windows hate. I really do. Though windows ten is a big improvement. But Ubuntu has come a loooong way and is very user friendly. If you are the typical mac user that wants things to work with no frills, let me tell you: You can do it! :) And if something did arise, you will become a little more computer literate in the process. Email, web browsing (chrome or firefox), youtube, facebook, twitter, messaging, music, and video (latter with VLC for example), unity, scientific computing (matlab, R, sci-python etc,), coding (eclipse, sublime), vecotrgraphics (inkscape), distraction free wring (focuswriter), libre office, all work flawlessly on ubuntu. If you need MS office you can either boot into windows or try running it with wine under linux. Gimp for basic image editing, the list goes on.

I you need video editing or the adobe suite, you can boot into windows.

Personally I can live with that gimmicky touch bar, and I never used siri, which the only two features you would truly give up. But if you have to have the Apple logo to show of at the coffee shop, I cannot help you.

As far as eco-system lock-in is concerned, I feel like this is highly overrated. I cannot remember when was the last time I had to connect and sync my iPhone. I use iCloud for notes, contacts and calendars. Notes could be replaced by onenote or evernote. But keeping them on the phone exclusively for now is also an option. Contacts can be exported on the mac (as vcards) and imported in linux.

The only reason not to switch is as a developer of iOS apps who wants to work on a laptop. You are screwed, I guess. Either continue to use older hardware (it runs x-code just fine after all) or buy overpriced smaller laptops with the same outdated internals. Sorry developers. A big FU from Apple.

Now to some brief analysis. Why is this happening?
Just a few ideas. These new computers, the port dropping etc, is not designing for price, or designing for experience. It is plain old designing for share-holder value. This all a symptom that Apple may have reached the limits of growth. Phone growth stagnating, iPad demand falling, mac demand falling, watch demand ???. No TV deal coming through, car project "resized". Where can future profits and growth come from? Easy: A drop as many features (e.g. ports, thus cutting cost), use old (read: cheap) components, up the price, sell adapters, and hope that people will still buy it.

Adapters are an intergresting example. I used to work with PCs for a while, and the biggest profit margin we had was always on cables and adapters. Think, it's basically rubber (or white shiny plastic), a bit of wires and maybe a small board, produced in bulk in China at a cost of pennies a piece and sold for 30-50$. That is a healthy profit, or, oif you look at it differently, a great way to f*** over customers. To be clear, I am not saying Apple's strategy is to replace profit from Macs with profit from adapters, but is a part of the strategy.


So that is it. I made up my mind, I am going with Ubuntu on the razor blade stealth. The hardware looks awesome and is up to date at a good price. I am not saying I am never going back to Apple laptops, but for now, I'll pass.


What do you guys think?
You do you.
 
I haven't been in the scene for over a year but developing iOS apps on Windows is becoming easier every day. Microsoft bought Xamarin early this year which is a framework for developing native iOS and Android apps on windows.
You still need a Mac to to the build and packaging even when running Xamarin on Windows
 
If you don't like the price / redesign / whatever then that's cool, it's not for you. Move on, buy something else. There are loads of options out there, grab a svelt HP or a Dell with 4K display cheaper etc if you need to do Xcode coding then grab a 2nd hand Mac mini. If you need to work remotely then leave the mini at home and control it via splashtop or similar.
 
Okay people keep saying 'why would you need more than 16gb RAM'. In my case, Logic Pro + Kontakt + massive trailer scoring sessions. I have 64GB on my desktop system. And it's Logic, which doesn't run on Windows (and I moved away from Windows for professional work a long time ago, I only use Windows for gaming).

I understand the memory controller thing, but it's still a bummer. They should offer a MacBook Pro that is a little thicker, with ports, more memory, all that.
 
also was there this much complaining when HP spectre came out? I just remember people saying OOO LOOK AT HOW THIN IT IS, HP BEATING APPLE AT THEIR GAME

only has usb-c ports

I actually remember a lot of hate about the HP Spectre.

Funny thing about all of this is that it was the usually Apple-centric people criticizing the Spectre when it was announced, and this time you also have a lot of Apple-centric folks criticizing the new MBP's. IMO, that's something that probably shouldn't be dismissed out of hand so easily.
 
It's been over 4 weeks since I rebooted my MacBook.

Could never do that on either of my Windows machines.

Read some reviews of the Razer laptops before purchasing. Lots of "meh" reviews.
 
When the dust settles, and the hate subsides, and the reviews come out - people will start to realize that MBP is an amazing achievment and a fantastic computer - and that nothing else like it is on the market.


Hi, wanted to reply to an earlier comment by you but took the first I found. It's true that there is currently no updated version of skylake chip in the new MBP (that's the 28W U chip). So you are right in that.

That said, it is old and other laptops can be found, which have a Kaby Lake U processor. Granted, that would be the 15W i7 Kaby lake, as opposed to the 28W i5 skylake in the new MBP. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the extra Watts are mainly for the beefier integrated graphics afaik. And the i7 clocks at quite high speeds compared to the new 13" MBPs. But then, who is gonna play a lot of games with integrated graphics anyway? Not trying to convince you, but I think the case can be made that better chips are already out for what is essentially turning into a fancy ultrabook class laptop.

Finally, specs have to be seen in context (by which I mean price). Using old (though strictly speaking not outdated) components, low base RAM config for a pro machine, and low clock speeds (at least at the entry level) and then upping the price as much as they did does reduce the value proposition considerably. It is outrageous for what it is. Personally I think it is in the territory where we consumers are taken for fools (but that's just my take on it), which is why it is legit to look for decent alternatives.

Slightly off topic, walked into an Apple store today and had a look at the non-touchbar model. Really neat hardware design, but boy that shallow keyboard is not my cup of tea.
[doublepost=1478045863][/doublepost]
It's been over 4 weeks since I rebooted my MacBook.

Could never do that on either of my Windows machines.

Read some reviews of the Razer laptops before purchasing. Lots of "meh" reviews.


You can on linux. My office workstation hasn't been rebooted in months :)

If you browse Youtube, the reviews of the Blade Stealth and XPS 13 are all pretty good, some excellent. Just to name two alternative laptops.
 
So that is it. I made up my mind, I am going with Ubuntu on the razor blade stealth. The hardware looks awesome and is up to date at a good price. I am not saying I am never going back to Apple laptops, but for now, I'll pass.

What do you guys think?

I get why you're doing the move, and I'd be lying if I said I haven't too. I have looked extensively at the razor blade stealth too, it looks really nice. I'd love to hear more about your take on how Ubuntu works on it. Does all the hardware work 100%, ie all drivers and such are available and up to date? Battery life as good as under windows? Does the Razer Core eGPU work under ubuntu (if you have that one)? Does other thunderbolt units, like disks or screens work well?

Would be nice with an update once you've gotten settled in.
 
You can on linux. My office workstation hasn't been rebooted in months :)

If you browse Youtube, the reviews of the Blade Stealth and XPS 13 are all pretty good, some excellent. Just to name two alternative laptops.

Linux is not even close to an option because it simply doesn't have anything close to the applications I need to run.

I have spent a lot of time with the Dell XPS 13. Terrible trackpad, web cam in maybe the worst location I have ever seen, never could get the scaling right when I hooked it up to my external monitor (more of a Windows 10 problem). In addition, it will be a cold day in hell before I ever purchase another Dell. A few years ago I had a terrible experience with Dell support.
 
I get why you're doing the move, and I'd be lying if I said I haven't too. I have looked extensively at the razor blade stealth too, it looks really nice. I'd love to hear more about your take on how Ubuntu works on it. Does all the hardware work 100%, ie all drivers and such are available and up to date? Battery life as good as under windows? Does the Razer Core eGPU work under ubuntu (if you have that one)? Does other thunderbolt units, like disks or screens work well?

Would be nice with an update once you've gotten settled in.


Would be happy to provide some info once I get it.

As far as ubuntu is concerned: Dell XPS exists as a developer edition which ships with Ubuntu. So everything works out of the box. The Blade Stealth apparently needs a driver update for the wifi card, but that's easy to download (with any internet enabled computer you have access to) and then apply. Had a look at the forums and everything else should work with newer versions of ubuntu (15 and up), including the touch screen, trackpad and the chroma keyboard (it maintains in Ubuntu any config you set in windows). Not sure about the core, but I would keep windows around for gaming anyway (which is what I do with bootcamp on my iMac). Battery life is comparable to windows, so about 8 hours with Kaby lake. Peripherals should work no problem. I repeat, if you hate windows and don't need specialty software which only exists for mac, Linux is a great alternative these days.
 
when the dust settles, people will realize specs aren't everything. people on forums complain about apple, touting that they've been apple fans for years, but the real trend is that apple is no longer chasing specs. it's the experience. I use a PC at work and I'm not using a fancy razer or anything, but it's the intangibles that keeps me an apple customer.

True sign of the apocalypse for Apple is when the little things start faltering. A laptop where the touchpad is less smooth. Something like that.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong, but the extra Watts are mainly for the beefier integrated graphics afaik

They are not. Talking integrated graphics out of the picture the 28w is considerably more powerful than the 15w variant in each generation and the 45w more powerful still. As you noted however these are not available for Kaby Lake just yet. Not that it matters too much in terms of raw computer power since Kaby Lake isn't really any faster than Skylake. It is a bit more efficient and it has some video decode hardware that will be useful for next gen video formats.
 
its a shame because the new macbook pros had potential to be the best laptop out, but the touch bar gimmick ruins it for me.
 
also was there this much complaining when HP spectre came out? I just remember people saying OOO LOOK AT HOW THIN IT IS, HP BEATING APPLE AT THEIR GAME

only has usb-c ports
That's an ultraportable, comparable to the Macbook. For devices that are clearly too small for type A (and of course mobile phones/tablet), everybody will understand why there is no type A. But if you look at the Spectre X360, which is more comparable to the MBP, it has a type A port in addition to two USB-C.
 
when the dust settles, people will realize specs aren't everything. people on forums complain about apple, touting that they've been apple fans for years, but the real trend is that apple is no longer chasing specs. it's the experience. I use a PC at work and I'm not using a fancy razer or anything, but it's the intangibles that keeps me an apple customer.

True sign of the apocalypse for Apple is when the little things start faltering. A laptop where the touchpad is less smooth. Something like that.

Try the new touchpad. Maybe it was just the Apple Store one, but I'd say exactly that. It felt less smooth. The click was not as pronounced as the 2015's. The palm rejection I get, but if you leave your left hand on the laptop (which will inevitably be touching the touchpad) while you use the right hand to move the cursor, you will notice quite a bit of lag. Maybe, it's just the 3 mbps they had at the Apple Store, but all exhibited this behavior.
 
When the dust settles, and the hate subsides, and the reviews come out - people will start to realize that MBP is an amazing achievment and a fantastic computer - and that nothing else like it is on the market.

I tend to agree, however Apple is 2-3 years off accomplishing this. Personally I will wait on Gen 2/3, allowing Apple to work out the kinks and adding value that is currently missing.

Q-6
 
That said, it is old and other laptops can be found, which have a Kaby Lake U processor. Granted, that would be the 15W i7 Kaby lake, as opposed to the 28W i5 skylake in the new MBP. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the extra Watts are mainly for the beefier integrated graphics afaik.

The 15W CPU is not as fast as a 28W, and Kaby Lake 15W is slower than the 28W Skylake. However, the CPU in the non-touch version of MacBook is not 28, it's 15. So yes if there is a 15W Kaby Lake, they could've gone with it for the lowest MacBook and Skylake for the rest. However, I'm guessing they want uniformity accross the 13" line - not sure really. Also, it is possible that there just wasn't enough Kaby Lake processors in volume that Apple needs.

I don't want to justify that decision, though I'm almost certain they didn't use the older processors in the 13" non-touch version to save money or whatever people are talking, though. Either way, the touch 13" and the 15" have the latest CPUs in that class (if you don't count the GPU part in 15", as I explained).

The thing is - saying "using one year old parts" for the new MacBooks assumes there is something better and newer that customers will notice and that Apple somehow cheaped out or something. Especially since everything in those laptops is top-notch, latest tech. It's kind of sad, really, because compared to all other laptops - you would assume if Apple is using "old parts" there are newer laptops out there. But that's just not true. There are Kaby Lake laptops, but all are using ultra-portable CPUs. The latest i7 Surface Book Microsoft announced is using Skylake - not Kaby Lake. Even worse, the new Surface Studio is also Skylake and that thing won't be even available until mid-December. And it comes with the previous generation of Nvidia cards (granted, they are still very good). But you don't see anyone claiming Microsoft is using "old parts" here.

Let's face it - it's just popular to hate Apple these days, because they are on top.
 
The 15W CPU is not as fast as a 28W, and Kaby Lake 15W is slower than the 28W Skylake. However, the CPU in the non-touch version of MacBook is not 28, it's 15. So yes if there is a 15W Kaby Lake, they could've gone with it for the lowest MacBook and Skylake for the rest. However, I'm guessing they want uniformity accross the 13" line - not sure really. Also, it is possible that there just wasn't enough Kaby Lake processors in volume that Apple needs.

I don't want to justify that decision, though I'm almost certain they didn't use the older processors in the 13" non-touch version to save money or whatever people are talking, though. Either way, the touch 13" and the 15" have the latest CPUs in that class (if you don't count the GPU part in 15", as I explained).

The thing is - saying "using one year old parts" for the new MacBooks assumes there is something better and newer that customers will notice and that Apple somehow cheaped out or something. Especially since everything in those laptops is top-notch, latest tech. It's kind of sad, really, because compared to all other laptops - you would assume if Apple is using "old parts" there are newer laptops out there. But that's just not true. There are Kaby Lake laptops, but all are using ultra-portable CPUs. The latest i7 Surface Book Microsoft announced is using Skylake - not Kaby Lake. Even worse, the new Surface Studio is also Skylake and that thing won't be even available until mid-December. And it comes with the previous generation of Nvidia cards (granted, they are still very good). But you don't see anyone claiming Microsoft is using "old parts" here.

Let's face it - it's just popular to hate Apple these days, because they are on top.




Can't speak to raw processing power but just to clarify (because it was mixed up in another comment too). 45W is more powerful than 28W mainly because it's the quad core. 28W i5 skylake vs. substantially higher clocked i7 15W kaby lake: not so sure, especially once you take the integrated graphics out of the equation.

Also, someone said the 15W is the one in the MacBook, which is just plain wrong. Those are core M (4W if I recall correctly) and much weaker than the 15W variants
 
I'll buy the MacBook Pro 15", despite of the fact that some of you may have seen my rant towards the new MacBook Pro line.

I already have a desktop PC so I can do most of my serious work/gaming on that.
 
First time poster, long time reader.

So, like many I was utterly disappointed by the new Macbooks. My 2012 Macbook Air died a month ago, seemed like good timing. Sadly, as many know, the new ones are ridiculously over priced and use old components. I was angry for a while, but I thought I'd share a constructive solution.

If you are not an iOS developer (see below) the solution is quite simple. Vote with your wallet.

This is coming form a long term Apple user. Even I got fed up. My first mac was a Titanium Powerbook, then a 12" iBook, the very first iPod (with many different models later on), an 17" iMac, the aluminum macbook, a 21" iMac, and finally a 11" inch Macbook Air and a 27" Imac. I even recommended the hardware to others. I did my part ;). But enough is enough. Vote with your wallet.

There are plenty of laptops from other manufactures which are good and portable. The Dell XPS 13 is an example (small footprint, light, has normal USB ports, 1 Thunderbolt 3 port, SD-card reader etc and up to date internals for a better price). I am personally not a big fan of the tiny bezels, I think they overdo it. Some protection from the background distraction around the screen is beneficial. My personal choice is the new Razor Blade Stealth, a 12.5" ultrabook, with the option to connect an external GPU. Very light, same build quality (all aluminum) as macbooks, and a good price (starting at 999) with Kaby Lake and 16GB of RAM by default. That's the config I would have expected in the Macbook Pro, with or without that gimmicky touchbar.

As far as the OS is concerned, I get the windows hate. I really do. Though windows ten is a big improvement. But Ubuntu has come a loooong way and is very user friendly. If you are the typical mac user that wants things to work with no frills, let me tell you: You can do it! :) And if something did arise, you will become a little more computer literate in the process. Email, web browsing (chrome or firefox), youtube, facebook, twitter, messaging, music, and video (latter with VLC for example), unity, scientific computing (matlab, R, sci-python etc,), coding (eclipse, sublime), vecotrgraphics (inkscape), distraction free wring (focuswriter), libre office, all work flawlessly on ubuntu. If you need MS office you can either boot into windows or try running it with wine under linux. Gimp for basic image editing, the list goes on.

I you need video editing or the adobe suite, you can boot into windows.

Personally I can live with that gimmicky touch bar, and I never used siri, which the only two features you would truly give up. But if you have to have the Apple logo to show of at the coffee shop, I cannot help you.

As far as eco-system lock-in is concerned, I feel like this is highly overrated. I cannot remember when was the last time I had to connect and sync my iPhone. I use iCloud for notes, contacts and calendars. Notes could be replaced by onenote or evernote. But keeping them on the phone exclusively for now is also an option. Contacts can be exported on the mac (as vcards) and imported in linux.

The only reason not to switch is as a developer of iOS apps who wants to work on a laptop. You are screwed, I guess. Either continue to use older hardware (it runs x-code just fine after all) or buy overpriced smaller laptops with the same outdated internals. Sorry developers. A big FU from Apple.

Now to some brief analysis. Why is this happening?
Just a few ideas. These new computers, the port dropping etc, is not designing for price, or designing for experience. It is plain old designing for share-holder value. This all a symptom that Apple may have reached the limits of growth. Phone growth stagnating, iPad demand falling, mac demand falling, watch demand ???. No TV deal coming through, car project "resized". Where can future profits and growth come from? Easy: A drop as many features (e.g. ports, thus cutting cost), use old (read: cheap) components, up the price, sell adapters, and hope that people will still buy it.

Adapters are an intergresting example. I used to work with PCs for a while, and the biggest profit margin we had was always on cables and adapters. Think, it's basically rubber (or white shiny plastic), a bit of wires and maybe a small board, produced in bulk in China at a cost of pennies a piece and sold for 30-50$. That is a healthy profit, or, oif you look at it differently, a great way to f*** over customers. To be clear, I am not saying Apple's strategy is to replace profit from Macs with profit from adapters, but is a part of the strategy.


So that is it. I made up my mind, I am going with Ubuntu on the razor blade stealth. The hardware looks awesome and is up to date at a good price. I am not saying I am never going back to Apple laptops, but for now, I'll pass.


What do you guys think?

I think the 13" 2016 MacBook Pro with or without Touch Bar is the best machine on the market right now. Too bad about the price, but it will drop 100 or more during the Kaby Lake refresh.

Ubuntu is awful & the Razer is expensive for what it is, plus it looks like it was designed specifically for teenagers. If I absolutely needed a new notebook right now, the new 13" MBP would be it. Nothing can beat it.
 
when the dust settles, people will realize specs aren't everything. people on forums complain about apple, touting that they've been apple fans for years, but the real trend is that apple is no longer chasing specs. it's the experience. I use a PC at work and I'm not using a fancy razer or anything, but it's the intangibles that keeps me an apple customer.

True sign of the apocalypse for Apple is when the little things start faltering. A laptop where the touchpad is less smooth. Something like that.

I think the specs in new MBPs are actually quite amazing, but otherwise - I completely agree. Especially the last few lines - about the little things. Great point.
 
I'm not switching away per say, but I do have a non mac laptop.

I opted for the Surface Book, which I got before the announcement, I needed a laptop in September and it was crazy to buy a 2015 model at the prices that apple charging for such old technology. Anyways, I was tempted just prior to the media event to sell it, if I was blown away by Apple. Long story short, I'll use the Surface Book and when its time to replace it, I'll look at MBPs, though I suspect they will not fit my needs.

I see Apple moving the MBP in a direction that is counter to my needs, both price wise, but also feature wise. I much prefer using a touch screen then a touchbar. Additionally, I find windows 10 is more then up to the task, and its been solid from my perspective.
 
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