This is the reason why I thought Apple was foolish to go with an NVIDIA chipset--NVIDIA's QC is absolute crap and they seem to have no ability to improve it. Having said that, I have a penryn MBP ('early 2008') 2.6GHz with the 512MB G8600 and it is still fine. I run the fans at 3500 RPM continuously, hoping to ensure that things stay cool enough to avoid spontaneously burning out the GPU.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
New MacBook Pro's have bad nVidia chips says Inq
- Thread starter keysersoze
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Dodgy GPUs that overheat when pushed hard, like in games?
Wahey! Just in time for OpenCL so Snow Leopard can keep crashing ALL the time when using the GPU for added performance!
Good thinking, this could be a disaster if true!
Unlikely but Apple's working very aggressively on this.
Some points I can't elaborate on:
It wasn't a solder issue with the 8600 chipset but an issue with the packaging; the material used betwixt chip and carrier was flawed. There was nothing Apple could have done to predict the problem.
Apple has taken incredibly thorough measures to assure this has been eliminated from their stock of 8600 equipped hardware including logic boards and standing inventory.
Anyone with a MBP (Pre-unibody 2008 model) who's concerned can bring your mac into an Apple Authorized Service Center for testing to see if this flaw is present and causing a failure. Alternatively you can arrange a mail-in repair through Apple directly after testing at an Apple Store.
The current MBP is the most thoroughly tested Mac in decades as a result of this debacle, the extremely high environmental standards Apple has set for all of the components and processes involved and the total rework of the assemblies. Extraordinary levels of testing have been and continue to be applied to this line. If this flaw is present in the 9600 series chips there will be some serious strain on the relationship between Apple and nVidia and serious doubts will be cast on nVidia's future dealings with the company.
The level of obfuscation and duplicitude on the part of nVidia around this issue is truly staggering.
Some points I can't elaborate on:
It wasn't a solder issue with the 8600 chipset but an issue with the packaging; the material used betwixt chip and carrier was flawed. There was nothing Apple could have done to predict the problem.
Apple has taken incredibly thorough measures to assure this has been eliminated from their stock of 8600 equipped hardware including logic boards and standing inventory.
Anyone with a MBP (Pre-unibody 2008 model) who's concerned can bring your mac into an Apple Authorized Service Center for testing to see if this flaw is present and causing a failure. Alternatively you can arrange a mail-in repair through Apple directly after testing at an Apple Store.
The current MBP is the most thoroughly tested Mac in decades as a result of this debacle, the extremely high environmental standards Apple has set for all of the components and processes involved and the total rework of the assemblies. Extraordinary levels of testing have been and continue to be applied to this line. If this flaw is present in the 9600 series chips there will be some serious strain on the relationship between Apple and nVidia and serious doubts will be cast on nVidia's future dealings with the company.
The level of obfuscation and duplicitude on the part of nVidia around this issue is truly staggering.
First time user of this forum. never really had a reason to register but thought that this issue was huge enough to take the time to go through the steps.
Just purchased a new MBP a few months ago and it's working smooth, but at times I have had some weird crashes when I'm using Photoshop, I've gotten the error messages more these last few months on the new machine than I did in almost 4 years of using my 12" G4. Next time I get the error I will jot down what it says. Figured since it was graphics related it might have something to do with the chip sets. Not a gamer, but use my machine for heavy photo editing and color processing.
Also, at times when I have the new MBP connected to my 23" monitor and my MBP goes to 'sleep' when I come back I get this crazy static on the monitor (like when a analog TV station is not coming in clearly or at all) Scared the hell out of me the first time this happened. Note, i tried to connect to my monitor while registering for the forum and machine totally locked up when I connected. Had to shut her down, restart.
Any ideas why this is happening or does everyone think this is related to the 9600s?
N
Just purchased a new MBP a few months ago and it's working smooth, but at times I have had some weird crashes when I'm using Photoshop, I've gotten the error messages more these last few months on the new machine than I did in almost 4 years of using my 12" G4. Next time I get the error I will jot down what it says. Figured since it was graphics related it might have something to do with the chip sets. Not a gamer, but use my machine for heavy photo editing and color processing.
Also, at times when I have the new MBP connected to my 23" monitor and my MBP goes to 'sleep' when I come back I get this crazy static on the monitor (like when a analog TV station is not coming in clearly or at all) Scared the hell out of me the first time this happened. Note, i tried to connect to my monitor while registering for the forum and machine totally locked up when I connected. Had to shut her down, restart.
Any ideas why this is happening or does everyone think this is related to the 9600s?
N
hmm...they say there are problems with the 9400 as well...
I remember when I was playing Diablo 2 my screen went black and I had to let the battery drain before I could restart it again...it's been working fine since
don't know if this has been mentioned before but points to consider:
1. proper voltage, these things need juice and apple is trying to be green and conserve energy...could they be undersupplying the GPUs and then they crash when under stress because the system just can't handle being underpowered and pushed to the limit at the same time
2. Airflow, MB and MBP are tiny aluminium boxes with next to no airflow when compared to some other desktops and definitely full towers. these components heat up and they are air cooled, if there is a lack of it, well you do the math.
I remember when I was playing Diablo 2 my screen went black and I had to let the battery drain before I could restart it again...it's been working fine since
don't know if this has been mentioned before but points to consider:
1. proper voltage, these things need juice and apple is trying to be green and conserve energy...could they be undersupplying the GPUs and then they crash when under stress because the system just can't handle being underpowered and pushed to the limit at the same time
2. Airflow, MB and MBP are tiny aluminium boxes with next to no airflow when compared to some other desktops and definitely full towers. these components heat up and they are air cooled, if there is a lack of it, well you do the math.
I would definitely give Apple a call and let them take a look at it. Definitely graphics related, whether this is an isolated incident or not. Make sure that the problems are reproducible, or Apple wont be able to help you.
OKTOPANIC:
Errors with Photoshop on the new Machines are disappointingly common. Much of which has to do with Adobe dragging their feet on getting rid of huge libraries of PPC-native code.
My guess is it's a complication of going from micro Displayport to DVI. Are you using the stock DVI converter or the more expensive Dual-link DVI converter?
Jak:
The existing 85W Power supply should be perfectly adequate.
The new cases have seen some of the most extensive flow-modeling for air movement in the industry. As of the previous case design Apple's heat-handling They're one of the best I've seen. I've cleared a lot of dust bunnies out of Dells and HP's that Macs just don't accumulate. I'd be shocked to see existing complaints about how hot they get (to the touch) continue in the new design.
Also worth noting: If these chips are functioning correctly they'll cause an overheat panic condition that shuts the Mac down if the GPU or CPU overheats.
Errors with Photoshop on the new Machines are disappointingly common. Much of which has to do with Adobe dragging their feet on getting rid of huge libraries of PPC-native code.
My guess is it's a complication of going from micro Displayport to DVI. Are you using the stock DVI converter or the more expensive Dual-link DVI converter?
Jak:
The existing 85W Power supply should be perfectly adequate.
The new cases have seen some of the most extensive flow-modeling for air movement in the industry. As of the previous case design Apple's heat-handling They're one of the best I've seen. I've cleared a lot of dust bunnies out of Dells and HP's that Macs just don't accumulate. I'd be shocked to see existing complaints about how hot they get (to the touch) continue in the new design.
Also worth noting: If these chips are functioning correctly they'll cause an overheat panic condition that shuts the Mac down if the GPU or CPU overheats.
'I've been doing pretty extensive heat testing on my UB MBP as overheating is what killed the logic board on my SR MBP and forced me into a new purchase.
Anyhow the laptop seems to run hotter ambient (about 50-60C with the 9600 enabled) but does not reach the same top temperatures under load. Using handbrake to encode x264 I cap out around 75-80C with the fans set to 4000rpm. If I use the 9400 instead of the 9600 the temps are about 5C lower.
The OSX fan strategy is EXTREMELY conservative to the point of being stupid. It won't even spin the fans up till it the CPU hits 90+C. I strongly reccomend people use smcfancontrol and if you are going to be doing video encoding or anything else where the CPU will be capped for extended periods of time.
I installed XP yesterday as well to play WAR. Seems OK so far. XP is definitely spinning the fans up. Temps seemed to be pretty resonable, does anyone know of software that will log the CPU and GPU temps in the background? I was running GPU-Z but it only showed the GPU temp and its logging was extremely flaky.
Anyhow, regardless I am going to buy a cooling plate for gaming. 70+C is still HOT and anything that can be done to alleviate it should be.
Anyhow the laptop seems to run hotter ambient (about 50-60C with the 9600 enabled) but does not reach the same top temperatures under load. Using handbrake to encode x264 I cap out around 75-80C with the fans set to 4000rpm. If I use the 9400 instead of the 9600 the temps are about 5C lower.
The OSX fan strategy is EXTREMELY conservative to the point of being stupid. It won't even spin the fans up till it the CPU hits 90+C. I strongly reccomend people use smcfancontrol and if you are going to be doing video encoding or anything else where the CPU will be capped for extended periods of time.
I installed XP yesterday as well to play WAR. Seems OK so far. XP is definitely spinning the fans up. Temps seemed to be pretty resonable, does anyone know of software that will log the CPU and GPU temps in the background? I was running GPU-Z but it only showed the GPU temp and its logging was extremely flaky.
Anyhow, regardless I am going to buy a cooling plate for gaming. 70+C is still HOT and anything that can be done to alleviate it should be.
Interesting ....
It may be possible Apple just flashed graphics with neutered firmware to keep it under performing, but without exposing the issue. Problem solved, money saved. Very lucrative, isn't it?
If this is true - it would be really nasty tactic from Apple side as well
My MBP has ATI chip, but I do feel it for the folks paid big buck for a laptop without "balls".
It may be possible Apple just flashed graphics with neutered firmware to keep it under performing, but without exposing the issue. Problem solved, money saved. Very lucrative, isn't it?
If this is true - it would be really nasty tactic from Apple side as well
My MBP has ATI chip, but I do feel it for the folks paid big buck for a laptop without "balls".
Really? My unibody mbp's fan is constantly at 2400-2500 rpm and if the cpu is around 80 and gpu around 75 Celsius the fan will crank up to 3500-4500rpm and if any hotter it will max out at around 5500-6050 rpm. It works very efficiently and keeps my mbp very cool all the time without the need of smcfancontrol. Maybe something is wrong with your mbp?
Like I said above this is fixed in the upcoming OS X patch. When playing WoW my fans maybe came on 1 in 4 tries, and then I got the black screen. in the new system the fans are much more active and responsive. No black screen since.
well
Me too, so what !? There's always been a chance to get a crappy or a great one. At least the "yellowish" Monitor problem seems cured.
And I JUST purchased a Macbook Pro Unibody...
Me too, so what !? There's always been a chance to get a crappy or a great one. At least the "yellowish" Monitor problem seems cured.
Yeah no doubt its a software issue so I am not too worried however for people not tech savvy enough to manually control the fans (not that smcfancontrol is exactly complicated
) or research the issue its a pretty significant issue.The temp sensors are clearly functioning properly since iStat is working fine. Oh well, hope they fix it in the next OSX update.
Yeah no doubt its a software issue so I am not too worried however for people not tech savvy enough to manually control the fans (not that smcfancontrol is exactly complicated
The temp sensors are clearly functioning properly since iStat is working fine. Oh well, hope they fix it in the next OSX update.
For 99% of the people who own a unibody it will. But the 1% will be the most vocal that say there is still something wrong. It should be within days, but my sources have been telling me that for the last week.
It took awhile but the thread is coming around.
First off I've completely rejected the Inquirers position that the solder has anything to do with this problem. The problems described simple are not consitant with solder failure.
That is not to say that Nvidia hasn't had problems just that I don't believe the actual problem has been made public nor has the solution implemented to fix the problem. Maybe one day the details will surface but right now it looks like there is more speculation than truth here.
Also important is that this thread is starting to highlight a well known problem with Apple hardware. That is Apple runs the components in their machines HOT! Heat is very bad for electronics and does cause random problems. Not to mention is the impact on long term life of the product. This is why alternative fan control programs are popular, doing a better job of thermal control results in a more stable system that lasts longer. So blaming Nvidia for Apples poor thermal designs is simply targeting the wrong player.
As to the new Nvidia chipset used in the new MB, time will tell! Frankly I don't think this specific problem will return. There are other problems associated with Nvidia chipsets to worry about. There are already indications that the new MB are more finicky with respect to RAM. Hopefully Apple and Nvidia teamed up in a way to make sure that the chipset is stable and trouble free.
In ant event I think there are good indicators that this partnership will work out well. Except for RAM tolerance issues I've not heard many complaints. Overall the owners seem to be very happy.
Dave
First off I've completely rejected the Inquirers position that the solder has anything to do with this problem. The problems described simple are not consitant with solder failure.
That is not to say that Nvidia hasn't had problems just that I don't believe the actual problem has been made public nor has the solution implemented to fix the problem. Maybe one day the details will surface but right now it looks like there is more speculation than truth here.
Also important is that this thread is starting to highlight a well known problem with Apple hardware. That is Apple runs the components in their machines HOT! Heat is very bad for electronics and does cause random problems. Not to mention is the impact on long term life of the product. This is why alternative fan control programs are popular, doing a better job of thermal control results in a more stable system that lasts longer. So blaming Nvidia for Apples poor thermal designs is simply targeting the wrong player.
As to the new Nvidia chipset used in the new MB, time will tell! Frankly I don't think this specific problem will return. There are other problems associated with Nvidia chipsets to worry about. There are already indications that the new MB are more finicky with respect to RAM. Hopefully Apple and Nvidia teamed up in a way to make sure that the chipset is stable and trouble free.
In ant event I think there are good indicators that this partnership will work out well. Except for RAM tolerance issues I've not heard many complaints. Overall the owners seem to be very happy.
Dave
The XBox360 ran into similar issues, the larger chips they were using acted like a heatsink during solder reflow, and the chip manufacturers didn't alert their clients that a manufacturing change was needed requiring more heat or longer reflow cycles.
Because the solder didn't get hot enough to fully melt, leaving some cold solder joints underneath the chip, the solder joints were strained by the hotter chips and the hot/cold heat cycling that eventually cracked the solder joints.
Of course this isn't something you can just pick up a board and look at anymore, since the chips that are fully tin, tend to look dull and might look like a cold solder joint while being perfectly fine.
Even if Apple and Nvidia are using the so-called problematic chips, as long as the manufacturing process takes the solder problem into account -- the chances of them being fine are high.
There are many times that a install method has caused problems in manufacturing, and a modification of this method tended to fix things.
I know. People criticize ATI or Intel GMA, but I've never had any problem whatsoever with those chipsets...
I wasn't sure if it was just me with some bootcamp quirks and World of Warcraft OSX quirks but I've got a bad feeling about my MBP now.
I bought a 2.53ghz model right after they came out and I've been getting the Black screen of death while playing WoW under OSX and I've been getting hard freezes in Vista 32bit (but the Vista freezing is even while doing basic things in windows not just gaming). Also for some odd reason my DVD drive won't read CERTAIN CDs (scratch free and read fine in other drives and players. Couple of audio cds and an older pc game on CD).
I'm going to call up Apple care as soon as I have a chance and see if they can hammer out the quirks or swap it out.
I bought a 2.53ghz model right after they came out and I've been getting the Black screen of death while playing WoW under OSX and I've been getting hard freezes in Vista 32bit (but the Vista freezing is even while doing basic things in windows not just gaming). Also for some odd reason my DVD drive won't read CERTAIN CDs (scratch free and read fine in other drives and players. Couple of audio cds and an older pc game on CD).
I'm going to call up Apple care as soon as I have a chance and see if they can hammer out the quirks or swap it out.
I repeat:
The 8600 failures had nothing to do with solder. It was a manufacturing defect on nVidia's end. Apple adjusting the fans would only extend the life of bad chips.
Do a quick Google search on "nvidia 8600 failure" and you'll find a LOT of articles about nVidia's packaging flaw on that chipset. When I say packaging... it's a term specific to chip manufacturing. It's about the filler/glue used between the chip itself and the chip carrier that interfaces with the logic board.
nVidia did a press release in the summer claiming they'd tracked down the problem.
Apple has gone to exceptional lengths to remove these chips from the channel. It was a LOT of work figuring out how to make good by the customers for a vendor's mistake and Apple has done very well in that regard.
Don't forget the last time this happened with nVidia's cards in the MacPro. The things came from nVidia with heat sinks that gummed up to the point of uselessness after only a few week's use.
I have my reasons for taking this one personally. Please keep in mind that for every one of these issues a small group of people has to figure out a solution as fast and as accurately as possible.
The 8600 failures had nothing to do with solder. It was a manufacturing defect on nVidia's end. Apple adjusting the fans would only extend the life of bad chips.
Do a quick Google search on "nvidia 8600 failure" and you'll find a LOT of articles about nVidia's packaging flaw on that chipset. When I say packaging... it's a term specific to chip manufacturing. It's about the filler/glue used between the chip itself and the chip carrier that interfaces with the logic board.
nVidia did a press release in the summer claiming they'd tracked down the problem.
Apple has gone to exceptional lengths to remove these chips from the channel. It was a LOT of work figuring out how to make good by the customers for a vendor's mistake and Apple has done very well in that regard.
Don't forget the last time this happened with nVidia's cards in the MacPro. The things came from nVidia with heat sinks that gummed up to the point of uselessness after only a few week's use.
I have my reasons for taking this one personally. Please keep in mind that for every one of these issues a small group of people has to figure out a solution as fast and as accurately as possible.
edit: First lets get it straight that this reporter is no neutral source of information and has repeatedly gone after nVidia...
I know we've seen some serious boneheaded moves from american business executives in recent weeks, but do you guys honestly think nVidia wouldn't have resolved this issue after the serious beating their finances and reputation took from the mobile GPU failures?? Not only would there be huge costs involved with a recall, but they could lose the Apple's business, which could be devastating in the long run. I highly doubt that to be the case.
Secondly, although there were many rumors and somewhat conflicting reports from "sources", the actual facts of the original mobile GPU problem were never confirmed. We don't know the details of the "high-lead" solder issue. I'm sure it is much more complex than just what type of solder was used for the connecting "bumps". Perhaps the solder is the same but other components or the design was modified to correct the prior problem. We just don't know the facts, so it's stupid to jump to conclusions about this.
I know we've seen some serious boneheaded moves from american business executives in recent weeks, but do you guys honestly think nVidia wouldn't have resolved this issue after the serious beating their finances and reputation took from the mobile GPU failures?? Not only would there be huge costs involved with a recall, but they could lose the Apple's business, which could be devastating in the long run. I highly doubt that to be the case.
Secondly, although there were many rumors and somewhat conflicting reports from "sources", the actual facts of the original mobile GPU problem were never confirmed. We don't know the details of the "high-lead" solder issue. I'm sure it is much more complex than just what type of solder was used for the connecting "bumps". Perhaps the solder is the same but other components or the design was modified to correct the prior problem. We just don't know the facts, so it's stupid to jump to conclusions about this.
Was gonna get the 2009 Mac Pro but now i'm not too sure with Apple products.. I don't think I've owned an ipod or an apple computer that hasn't effed up in someway or another and programmed to do it 2 days after warranty so I'm considering making the "Switch" to PC all i can say is apple need to put more money into their products than marketing them it's almost a scam...