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Where does this "bloatware" FUD come from? Looking at both my iMac and Macbook I have these required apps that I need to keep the system afloat-

XP; AVG
OSX; USB Overdrive, Perian and Flip4Mac (though this is just a bunch of codecs with a System Preferences frontend). And not really a major problem but OSX fails to mount my external NTFS drives and occasionally hangs on bootup if they're connected. Plus I've tried to disable EyeTV from booting at start using all options available but it still boots on launch.

HFS+ drives need defragmenting too. Just that Windows comes with a free app, OSX needs either Terminal knowledge (IIRC) or iDefrag (not free).

There are loads of myths on both sides. For 6 months I didn't even install AVG and didn't catch a virus.
 
If those Mac users feel their computer are "overpriced" then they have other options. Just like the PC users that are tired of "bloatware" can look at Macs and see if they are suitable for their needs.


What you conveniently ignore is that many of us who use our machines for work are effectively locked in with Mac-specific workflows and considerable investment in software and other resources. So, please don't try to tell us that the choice is simply a matter of one over the other when Apple don't even offer a broad enough range of machines to suit many consumers.
 
$699 down payment, $5,000 long term cost for the Windows PC. Independent studies have shown that Windows PCs users are less productive and that the live time cost of owning a Windows PC is much more than for a Macintosh. Typical short term thinking.
 
There are loads of myths on both sides. For 6 months I didn't even install AVG and didn't catch a virus.

And how do you know you didn't have a virus? The owners of the millions of Conflicker infected PC's don't know they have a virus either.

Most modern viruses do not broadcast themselves to the owner. They're less profitable if they do.
 
The ad says that Macs are more expensive, and they are. For what most people need, they don't need to buy a Mac. I'm almost positive that nearly everyone on this site are geeks, at least to an extent. We are not like 80-something% of the population that don't need more than Microsoft word and the internet for small things. Microsoft has a good point and I don't think that people will look deep into the ad (like you guys with the whole "Oh she has a nice car" and "I'm not cool enough for a Mac" [she was obviously being sarcastic] and other stuff like that) and buy something because it is less expensive.

Now I don't agree that people should just buy something that is less expensive because like most of you, I am geeky and do care about my computer. I love my future Mac (I don't have it but I use my friend's Mac all the time) and I would totally be willing to shell out twice as much money for it.

But my whole point is that a Mac isn't best for every person, nor is a Microsoft machine. If all you need is word and internet, then by all means DON'T buy a Mac. For that is is overpriced and shouldn't be bought. If you need real power, choose which OS is best for you. For some (like gamers) Vista is the best OS. For others (like video editors) OSX may be best. No OS is ultimately better than another (nor is any computer)
 
Where does this "bloatware" FUD come from? Looking at both my iMac and Macbook I have these required apps that I need to keep the system afloat-

XP; AVG
OSX; USB Overdrive, Perian and Flip4Mac (though this is just a bunch of codecs with a System Preferences frontend). And not really a major problem but OSX fails to mount my external NTFS drives and occasionally hangs on bootup if they're connected. Plus I've tried to disable EyeTV from booting at start using all options available but it still boots on launch.

HFS+ drives need defragmenting too. Just that Windows comes with a free app, OSX needs either Terminal knowledge (IIRC) or iDefrag (not free).

There are loads of myths on both sides. For 6 months I didn't even install AVG and didn't catch a virus.

1. Perian or Flip4Mac work, you don't need both. Windows Media Player does not play all media files out of the box, you still need other programs, similar to OS X Quicktime (although Snow Leopard Quicktime X seems to be including more codes, resulting in less need for other programs).

2. System Preferences - Accounts - Login Items, Select "EyeTV", then "-" for delete. Very simple.

3. Check to ensure your NFTS drive structures are properly formatted and operated. It usually is simply the drive. Further, OS X/Unix works best with FAT 32, generally speaking, for full interoperability.

4. Mac OS X does not require extra software for protection, nor does it require system utilities for defragmenting and optimization beyond "Disk Utility" to ensure "out of the box" system performance over the years of average usage. Windows machines generally acquire more programs and files that slow the performance of the system, requiring either preventative software and/or upkeep to ensure level system performance.

I have worked with systems from 3.1-Vista, OS 8-X, programming, etc. and I have no preference for either (although I run most of my work on an Octo Mac Pro as it allows me to run OS X and Windows in one machine, saving me money), however working in IT - now part time - generally more wear and tear exists through Windows users than Mac. That is a very indisputable fact, and if you have experienced otherwise you are the exception, not the rule. If you don't agree, I have hundreds of Windows clients who will inform you otherwise.
 
Look, I'm a Mac owner and a professional Mac tech. I love the darn things. That being said, this is an effective campaign. Macs have been overpriced for years and Microsoft is striking at the perfect time--when everyone is feeling financially pinched. There is nothing magical about Apple hardware. It is only a means to the software. Access to better software and better exterior trim design is not enough for many folks--especially in this current economic climate. You can bet a lot of students who would have got Macs two years ago are going to opt for PCs in 2009. This will be true regardless if they are the ones paying for it or their parents. Let's face it, it is really is hard to justify $1600 for a 13.3" MacBook which is what the 2.4Ghz model costs. personally, I am running the new Mini ($599.99 plus $160 for a 500GB HD and 4GB of ram=$760) and I think it is the best Mac value available right now.
 
$699 down payment, $5,000 long term cost for the Windows PC. Independent studies have shown that Windows PCs users are less productive and that the live time cost of owning a Windows PC is much more than for a Macintosh. Typical short term thinking.

Interesting. I must be doing something wrong because I've built several PCs for people over the years and they haven't bothered me with anything other than general tech support questions and the occasional bad hard drive. I'd say a computer is only as productive as the person using it.

What kind of people are these? $5000? Really?
 
Where does this "bloatware" FUD come from? Looking at both my iMac and Macbook I have these required apps that I need to keep the system afloat-

XP; AVG
OSX; USB Overdrive, Perian and Flip4Mac (though this is just a bunch of codecs with a System Preferences frontend). And not really a major problem but OSX fails to mount my external NTFS drives and occasionally hangs on bootup if they're connected. Plus I've tried to disable EyeTV from booting at start using all options available but it still boots on launch.
Oh, so you're telling me you don't need some programs to remove
temporary files and clean the registry? Because I really can't live with Windows if I don't use some of those tools, it just gets so horribly slow, and they're the only way to slightly remove the slowness.
And how about all that crap that comes out with Vista in most PCs?

HFS+ drives need defragmenting too. Just that Windows comes with a free app, OSX needs either Terminal knowledge (IIRC) or iDefrag (not free).

Except that HFS+ drives fragment much much less than NTFS drives. Defragmentation isn't really needed. While on Windows, you MUST pay to get a decent Defragmenting tool. Windows' default defragmenter is...awful.

For 6 months I didn't even install AVG and didn't catch a virus.

At least that's what you think, there's no way to be sure. You could just have a completely undetectable trojan/rootkit out there and your AVG wouldn't detect anything. Those things are hardly noticeable with Behaviour controlling tools.
 
Where does this "bloatware" FUD come from? Looking at both my iMac and Macbook I have these required apps that I need to keep the system afloat-...
...HFS+ drives need defragmenting too. Just that Windows comes with a free app, OSX needs either Terminal knowledge (IIRC) or iDefrag (not free).
.

In 10 years I've never had a need to defrag a OS X drive. It's really not necessary.

My definition of bloatware would be the bundled applications that come with the average PC, fresh out of the box. I've had to spend lots of time on various different PCs, uninstalling applications that intercept normal Windows activities.

At least with the bundled application from Apple, they all don't try to run at startup and aren't all demanding that I contact the "Help Center".

iTunes has a "helper", but that's something that just checks to see if a "iPod" device has been connected. Similar to an OS polling to see if a CD ROM has been inserted.
 
it doesn't matter whether you use mac or pc. it's all your choice. it depends on your demand or purpose. at least mac is more expensive. it's true. I don't have prejudice on both. I use both. I love each character.
 
HFS+ drives need defragmenting too. Just that Windows comes with a free app, OSX needs either Terminal knowledge (IIRC) or iDefrag (not free).

This is actually very inaccurate. OS X is meant to run fragmented and never requires a user to defrag a the hard disk, there are certain Unix cleanup items that run at certain times to make the computer run smoother, but it's nothing like Windows where every month the user must take time to defragment the hard disk.
 
Is that you Mr. Jobs? :rolleyes:

You spend nothing on a PC getting it "up to par" with a Mac. Even if you did buy extra software, you'd still be as much as $1,000 richer than you would be if you had bought a Mac.

OS X is not a fantastic operating system. Why can't I cut and paste in the OS? Not copy and paste, cut and paste? Why can't I play videos using full bitstream decoding on my GPU? Windows has been doing things like this and many others for a decade now!

And you want to talk about downloading updates? If I do a fresh install of OS X right now, I'll have to download more, file size wise, than I would with my original copy of Vista.

Downloading drivers? Vista gets drivers from Windows Update if it even needs it. Common things like Printers, scanners, digital cameras, memory card readers, game controllers, etc. work out of the box. Unlike OS X which requires drivers for printers and scanners ;)

Oh and all 3 of my Macs have had 2 pieces of trialware, the same way my 3 HPs have had 2 pieces of trialware.


Is there something wrong with you?
 
Apple don't even offer a broad enough range of machines to suit many consumers.

AMEN. I agree completely that Apple needs to offer more options in their desktop lineup (as well as an entry level laptop that is more comparable to a Windows based system).

I wonder why they haven't. I may understand Apple's desire in maintaining a steady gain in market share to maintain a good ratio of quality and quantity. However, at a time when the generally consumer is watching their financial spending, this would be a moment for Apple to grab a some of the market by offering an entry level product. Assuming this demographic consists mostly of college students or young professionals, allowing them to purchase a system comparable in price and specs to a Windows system may solidify their product loyalty once they mature into a higher financial demographic and appreciate the long term investment for future Apple systems. This would open up their base by ensuring a broader marketplace while demonstrating that Microsoft is incorrect in their statement that Windows systems are financially less expensive than OS X based counterparts.
 
HFS+ drives need defragmenting too. Just that Windows comes with a free app, OSX needs either Terminal knowledge (IIRC) or iDefrag (not free).
HFS+ does require defragmentation, but the fact the most Mac users don't know about this tells something. Fragmentation in HFS+ is an issue only when the user transfers and then delete many large files in his HD. It's a big pain for those who try to partition their HD for Boot Camp, however :eek:
 
Look, I'm a Mac owner and a professional Mac tech. I love the darn things. That being said, this is an effective campaign. Macs have been overpriced for years and Microsoft is striking at the perfect time--when everyone is feeling financially pinched. There is nothing magical about Apple hardware.


Couldn't agree more but be careful. You'll be accused of being a Redmond employee, a child or a troll. I've spent long enough on these forums to recognise when it's starting to become time to throw the completely uncritical devotees of this hardware platform, the shiny dongle to run OSX, under the bus.
 
Just went to Dell and priced out an equivalent Dell 13 XPS for $1400, so the Mac at $1600 with unibody, back lit screen etc. is a steal, especially when you can sell when you're done with it.

So cheap is junk, even if you're buying Windows.


Look, I'm a Mac owner and a professional Mac tech. I love the darn things. That being said, this is an effective campaign. Macs have been overpriced for years and Microsoft is striking at the perfect time--when everyone is feeling financially pinched. There is nothing magical about Apple hardware. It is only a means to the software. Access to better software and better exterior trim design is not enough for many folks--especially in this current economic climate. You can bet a lot of students who would have got Macs two years ago are going to opt for PCs in 2009. This will be true regardless if they are the ones paying for it or their parents. Let's face it, it is really is hard to justify $1600 for a 13.3" MacBook which is what the 2.4Ghz model costs. personally, I am running the new Mini ($599.99 plus $160 for a 500GB HD and 4GB of ram=$760) and I think it is the best Mac value available right now.
 
Couldn't agree more but be careful. You'll be accused of being a Redmond employee, a child or a troll. I've spent long enough on these forums to recognise when it's starting to become time to throw the completely uncritical devotees of this hardware platform, the shiny dongle to run OSX, under the bus.

You mean there are "real" people on these forums after all? And a mod no less!

*faints*

;)
 
Interesting. I must be doing something wrong because I've built several PCs for people over the years and they haven't bothered me with anything other than general tech support questions and the occasional bad hard drive. I'd say a computer is only as productive as the person using it.

What kind of people are these? $5000? Really?

I agree with you because of one thing, you BUILT your machine, I have always built my Windows machine, but we are also the minority of PC users. People get so stuck on such small percentage the user base in which they represent. Think big picture, general users and the TCO comes into play. $5000 seems a bit extreme, but on my last desktop I built, I spent $1200 on hardware, $150 on Windows Vista, $150 on office, give or take another couple hundred on spyware, virus protection etc.. Over the course of 2 years not really much more cash but wasted a ton of time keeping it running worth a damn. If I didn't know how to maintain it and had to take this to say the "Geek Squad" as I know many of my co workers end up doing, they spend hundreds on support.

My windows experience is one of wasting time with all the BS add on software, wipe/reinstalling of windows every 6 months to a year to keep it running. Top that off with the fact family members who don't build their machines calling me to help them with all the same BS.

Personally I made the switch because I don't find it enjoyable to waste my time on maintenance. Viruses, spyware vs just using a computer for what I enjoy. Teenagers may still get a kick out of tinkering around and building PC's, I know I did and learned alot about them. Now that I'm older and have the money to simplify my computer use I do.

My time is worth more then the extra cost of a Mac.

There is a simple fact, I can always make more money, I can't get back wasted time.
 
Look, I'm a Mac owner and a professional Mac tech. I love the darn things. That being said, this is an effective campaign. Macs have been overpriced for years and Microsoft is striking at the perfect time--when everyone is feeling financially pinched. There is nothing magical about Apple hardware... Let's face it, it is really is hard to justify $1600 for a 13.3" MacBook which is what the 2.4Ghz model costs.

Lets look back on Commodore. They entered the home computer market at almost exactly the same time as Apple. They had a mandate to make computers cheap and sell them in mass quantities. They started a price war with Atari and Texas Instruments. In the process, Commodore rolled over many a company and retailer.

When the PC market started changing in the middle of the 1980's, Commodore had few friends. When a new computer called the Amiga was released, nobody wanted to sell them. They were technically faster and could do more out-of-the-box, but nobody ever heard of them.

Apple stayed above the fray and survived, and we sadly know what happened to Commodore.

The point is, if Apple started to make computers to undercut the $699 HP, it would be their undoing. It's that mindset that pushed them to the brink of bankruptcy in the late 1990's.
 
You're downplaying the software to suit your opinion. Windows is a good operating system on its own (some usability flaws can be ignored by the user) but the way applications and dependencies work with the OS is an orgy that usually ends in problems for heavy users.
Opinion schmoponion, this is my experience.

I work with graphic design and audio, sometimes making graphics for applications, sometimes making lengthy Flash ads with music soundtrack. Freelancing, always on standby for projects, tight deadlines and all that.

For this I use two PCs, one with Vista only, the other with three partitions (Vista, XP, Win7 beta). If there was even the slightest hint of glitches that got in the way of my work, I would use something else. I had trouble with two drivers in the beginning - Intel's wireless driver and NVidias gfx card driver, but these were not harmful to my work and they were fixed within a month after I installed Vista on these two machines that shipped with XP Professional. That's the end of my Vista "problems", just over two years ago. These machines run, run, and run again, the laptop probably taking the worst hit as it's virtually an "always on" machine. After just under 3 years, the motherboard on my desktop machine died. Dell replaced it the next day, and that was the end of it. So all in all I've had less than 24 hrs downtime in 3 years.

Now, enter the Mac (late 2007). One of my clients reeeeally wanted me to work on a Mac, on location, so I said OK, look, we'll make a deal: You buy me an iMac 24" with Adobe CS3, I'll buy it when the project is over for the residual value.

OK, so the Mac arrives (came with Leopard) after taking FOREVER to be delivered, nine weeks or whatever it was, and I start working. Day one: Very flakey wireless, had to use wired network; very flakey Mail app, server timeouts half the time for no apparent reason (Leopard issue, the other guys at the office were on Tiger and had no issues with mail); weird video glitches, when returning from sleep mode the screen was flickering like a stroboscope so I had to reboot (later fixed with a firmware update. MUCH later.). Lots of random crashes in Safari. Day two, working on some PSD files on the server. And what does the Mac go ahead and do? It destroys my client's files! Look it up on the web, and sure enough, several reports of CS3 corrupting documents under Leopard when you save to a server. Fortunately they had a backup. Few weeks later: Tried to install a driver for a firewire audio device called Yamaha 01X. Decided I didn't like it. Uninstalled. Not. The iMac started doing the infamous perpetual blue screen thing that so many people were experiencing with Leopard. Took me a day to track down some puny MIDI driver file that was buried deep in the Library somewhere, it made Leopard hang on startup. Starting to feel like Windows 98 here. After these minor and one major, MAJOR glitch it worked pretty well.

After the project I brought the machine home and more or less gave it to my girlfriend. It ran for a few months, then died completely (black screen, no 'bing' startup sound, only a faint whirr from the DVD drive). Call Apple support. Turns out my AppleCare plan wasn't registered, huge ordeal to register when a year has passed, faxing receipts and all sorts of crap. Anyway, talked to the snarkiest person ever to disgrace a support line, went through a ridiculous troubleshooting routine despite my assurances that I know a dead computer when I see one, and if I insert the OS X DVD it will only get stuck inside the machine. She insisted. The DVD got stuck. I asked about on-site repairs like I'm used to with my PCs. Apparently a ridiculous request, for two reasons -- A) an iMac isn't a desktop computer when it needs service, only in advertising, and B) I lived "too far" from the nearest service center (60 miles/100 km).

It's still sitting in a corner, I have to register the damn AppleCare plan and then transport the machine somehow to Stockholm, drop it off, and then travel back to pick it up an unknown number of days later.

Every single aspect of my Mac experience has been awful -- the purchase, the stability, the hardware quality, the support and service. Meanwhile the Vista machines are chugging along happily.

So forgive me if I feel like I'm in the twilight zone when people say stuff like "go Mac, it just works, you don't want a PC with the blah blah viruses and yada yada malware and bleh bluhh driver hell". Yeah mmmmkay, on what planet is that happening?
 
Macs are great. My MacBook runs circles around any computer I've used with Vista. The OS is great and the hardware is beautiful. For these reasons, I'm prepared to pay a premium for a Mac.

However, Apple does need to work on their value equation. In general computers are no long multi-thousand dollar purchases and the current mac pricing is a little out of touch. I was really disappointed when the new aluminum MacBook came out to see it start at $1299. I know the hardware and the case are fantastic, and I do lust after the new design, but I don't buy that Apple had to keep the classic white MacBook around to meet the $999 price point (which let's face it, they should have been at for some time). Had they released the aluminum model at $999 sales would have been through the roof.

My suggested Mac pricepoints:
TBA Mac Netbook: $799
MacBook (aluminum): $999 (with the upgrade model at $1299 and not $1599, dump the classic white model)
MacBook Air: $1399
MacBook Pro 15": $1699 (with the upgrade model at $2099)
MacBook Pro 17": $2399

iMac 20": $999
iMac 24": $1299
Mac Mini: $499/$599

Apple 24" Cinema Display: $599 (the current $899 is RIDICULOUS! One can only imagine the margin). Even $599 is a bit much...

Apple's volume of mac sales continues to grow, year over year. Their margins are consistent. They are profitable. They have no desire to cannibalize themselves for two or three more instant percentage points, at any particular quarter, to proclaim some sort of victory.

In four years Apple will be around 16-20% of the entire market for desktop/portable systems.

They'll continue to be highly profitable and steady on their margins.

Microsoft will continue to move from 3rd party OEM to 3rd party OEM to pander their wares while those third parties continue to fail and some even going bankrupt.
 
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