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BTW, the Mac doesn't have a virus problem since users don't run as root. They don't have macros or autorun. Long live those awful MS designers who have allowed me to make tons of money keeping their users happy.

That's where you're missing it, it's not features, it's usable features. Long live KISS. (I wanted Bucky Fuller to design my software.)
 
Well, Microsoft isn't really exciting. Microsoft tried to make Vista exciting with that "wow" campaign, but it failed miserably. Was not for that, Vista would probably have a better reputation these days...
The main contributor to Vista's failure was that they waited for too long between XP and Vista. XP had a really primitive and outdated graphics engine that barely even touched the GPU capabilities. Between 2001 and 2007 we had gone from 500 MHz Pentium III machines with 128 MB RAM and an 8 MB video card, to Core2Duo Extreme 3 GHz, 4 GB RAM and dual 512 MB video cards... consequently XP was extremely snappy (not to mention stable after 7 years of service packs and patches). So when Vista arrived and people suddenly got a system that utilized all the power of the previously dormant hardware, people went "my GOD this is slow and eats a lot of RAM". Well duhh. There should have been a intermediate version in 2004 that prepared people for Vista.
 
And with a Mac you simply learn to LOVE the spinning beach ball. Makes waiting a lot more fun!

i barely ever see that beach ball. and i would rather deal with a spinning beach ball every so often than a constantly freezing system and a yearly reformat. i also like that when something freezes on a mac, it only freezes that application, not the whole OS. macs even freeze more elegantly
 
In what way? Apart from price, the machines are pretty similar.

Both have dual core processors, both have 4GB RAM, both have a 17" screen, both have a 320GB hard drive, both have a DVD-RW drive, both have built in webcams, both have a one year warranty.

The only area where the MacBook Pro will likely outperform the HP is in battery life, but then, I don't want to be one to fall for Apple's marketing garbage on that. I'm promised 5 hours on my MacBook, I get closer to 2 and a half.

Actually a 17" MBP is worlds apart from pretty much any 17" windows machine. With the MBP you get 8 hours of battery life + a screen that has huge resolution and amazing contrast and color accuracy for a portable display + very sturdy construction. If you were to look for the same features in a PC ( you can't find the same construction so that's out ) you'd end up choosing between portable gaming machines which weight a ton compared to the MBP cost at least as much and have insanely low battery life. So yeah they all look the same from a birds eye view but they are nothing alike.
 
Office 2008 for Mac is a joke, a bad piece of software, and a memory hog. I've never had a single crash with Office 2007, which I found to be the best piece of software I've ever run on Windows. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same thing about Office 2008...
Office 2007 has some graphics bug, it rarely rears its head but it happens once a month or so. It somehow forgets that it has the new masthead at the top and tries to become a 'regular' Windows window, but it can't, so there's no menu at all just an empty frame around the document. Also, I often use Excel bits embedded in Word documents, and pretty much every time Office starts yapping about "AutoRecover" having been "disabled for this session", and advises me to save my documents and start over. Other than that, it's solid.
 
Approximately minus one.

About what I expected, unfortunately.

Either way, let's stick to what we were talking about - profit margins and PCs vs Macs.

Sorry, but that's your agenda, and your excuse to try to beat up Apple for what you believed were shortcomings for which they were entirely responsible for, even though you've told us enough to know that that is false.

Last time I checked, profit margin was revenue minus production costs and it would be peculiar if OS X is somehow an addition to the total production cost tally. OS X most certainly didn't come out of an EZ-bake oven but are you really suggesting that they somehow had a harder job than the guys over in Redmond? How many internal hardware components does OS X have to support, they've used, what, 150-200 internal thingamabobs across the product line since the Intel switch? Given that they generally give legacy support a big fat middle finger, and don't have to make the system work with some 50,000 different components in a billion combinations like the Windows team does, it doesn't exactly sound like a trial of fire.

Supporting fewer hardware permutations is simply one of the ways that Apple controls costs, so as to try to offset their 20:1 sales volume disadvantage vs. Windows.

And nevertheless, the six year old "legacy" system that I'm typing this on is still being supported. Sure, Snow Leopard will be the beginning of the end, but realistically, it will easily go another 1-2 more years...the equivalent of 5 Moore's Law lifespans from a product lifecycle perspective. In general, its a more wise question to ask ones self how many total years of product support is realistic and reasonable?

The reality is that MS isn't really doing any better with Vista's minimum hardware requirements...nor will Windows 7 not result in some legacy PC hardware similarly being orphaned. But if its an old 800MHz Pentium, that's its okay, because that's not Apple's fault...even though that's called a double standard.


Certainly, but as an end user I really don't care what excuses the producer has.

Yet that somehow hasn't stopped you from making comparisons.

I never suggested that Lenovo or Dell/HP professional machines (Dell Precision etc) are cheap, they're in the $2000+ ballpark...

But you did explicitly say "Have we filled the $500-$2,000 discrepancy", which unambiguously refers to a price difference.

So how about some examples of where this $2000 price difference exists, at least in my Market (USA)?

FWIW, I don't dispute that there seems to have been some odd currency-based fluctuations in price structures on this past go-around, but international currencies have fluctuated by 30-40% regardless of the product. But if you can really show an order of $2000 difference between USA & SWE prices, then I'd recommend any buyer to instead consider airline ticket and a short holiday, since as per Kayak.com, one can buy a round trip New York - Stockholm flight for under $600 right now, for some days in May, as well as next week.


-hh
 
The $600 paradox.

A year ago I bought this Gateway 17" laptop for around $600.

http://support.gateway.com/s/Mobile/2007/SonicC/1014556R/1014556Rsp2.shtml

It runs Vista adequately, Ubuntu great and OS X fairly well. In fact as I speak I have it installing the iPhone 3.0 beta dev kit so I can continue to develop my iPhone apps while traveling. I have a 20" iMac for normal development.

So the deep, dark secret is that many of these $600 laptops have hardware that's so in common with the lower-end $1000+ Mac hardware that OS X is able to run. For the latest 10.5.6 install, I didn't even have to worry about some special build, beyond the EFI emulation.

Could an average user like Lauren pull installing OS X? I doubt it. The point here is that the hardware built into the $600 PC laptops and the Mac systems is an almost 1:1 match. That extra $400-1500 you end up paying for a Mac is simply to declare that "you're cool enough to own a Mac."
 
thats more than i get on my macbook pro :(

Two of my friends had the same pb with early 2008 15" MB Pro's.
They had Apple changed the battery for free. They are just fine now with a little under 4h, as it should be I guess.
:)
 
I'm guessing you haven't tried a new Mac with iLife 09. GarageBand is Apple's latest revenue stream and includes a store where you can choose to buy extras. Sounds like sponsored bloatware to me.

Remove things yourself if you're not happy with them. Leaving them there isn't going to cause any problems.

It's not 2004, people don't need virus protection on Windows any more.

External webcam for $80? Where do you shop? Oh right, the APPLE STORE. I get it. That is if she even needs one. I've never used my iSight and I don't think I ever will. Partly because none of my friends have Macs and thus cannot communicate with me on iChat using video.

Downgrade to XP if you want, but if you leave Vista on it (this is 2009, we're on SP2 now) you'll be just fine. It might take you a little while to get used to where some things moved to, but it should be a better experience overall.

Ha! On the contrary...I have bought new Macs over the past year. And yes, some of the new iLife products are just as a ploy to get you to buy Apple sponsor featured. But guess what... these programs are not all that bad eh? I'm not a professing I'm a multimedia whiz, but guess what?, they make it easy. One other advantage: I can port my previous purchased iLife products over to the new one with minimum issue with compatibility.

The point I'm making, like so many other posters here had made, sure PC Laptops comes with more hardware initially, but that doesn't always translate as the best option when you are in the market of buying a laptop. Over the longevity of her purchase she will eventually sour at the ideal of settling for quantity over quality, or easy of use. The specs "Laren" set out to achieve could have easily been met if she decide to forgo $1000 "new" laptop and opted to go with a used high-end Mac LP. Hell, she a student in college, just starting out; you don't need all that BS anyway. You need to focus on getting up and running from the jump, and reduce the worries of operational mishaps, which usually accompanies Windows machines.
 
here you go: a new ALU Macbook, thet felt from about 1 m:

You're judging the quality of a laptop based on how it stands up to being dropped from 1 meter? Hmm. I've seen laptops dropped from that height and how it emerges from that largely depends on the type of surface it's landing on and how forcefully and at what angle it hits the ground. Regardless, I don't see how that has any bearing on Apple's build quality.

I would say no. There are quality issues. They have used some very questionable components in the past, and still today. MB plastic falling off. MBPs warping. Battery lids not fitting etc etc etc etc

Well, that's an opinion based on well-publicized problems and not worth arguing. Any electronic device is going to have problems. Does that mean XBox 360 is the worst game console on the market--after all, it's prone to the Red Ring of Death. Must be the worst of the bunch, right? How about that Zune end of the year date bug that caused them all to fail en masse? Didn't hear of any other music players with that problem so it must be the worst music player on the market. You should agree with that as it's the same type of rationale.

If you look up reasonably objective statistics (which do come along from time-to-time although I'm not finding anything via Google right now--anyone care to throw a link out?) you'll see that hardware failure and problems are far more frequent on PCs than Macs. I have yet to hear a good explanation for that from people who claim that Macs and PCs are "just the same thing." The data we have doesn't support that assertion.
 
.. i also like that when something freezes on a mac, it only freezes that application, not the whole OS. macs even freeze more elegantly


Except when the cursor freezes and the only solution is to press the power button for several seconds.
 
That's where you're missing it, it's not features, it's usable features. Long live KISS. (I wanted Bucky Fuller to design my software.)

Well, Apple Pages doesn't have cross-references. Cross-references! One of the most basic features of word processing, and Pages doesn't have it... how on Earth could it replace Word?
 
not even close

The hardware is not the same, period. We already went over this. Low bid for min requirements. Its the min requirements part. HP wants the part cheapest possible regardless of quality. Apple may buy from some of the same vendors but they have the components built to their specs. Not the vendors we can make it cheaper specs. Remember the most important parts are made and designed by Apple. Have you ever been to Russia? Seen the cars they drive? Less than a 1000 US you can buy a brand new car and a nice looking one.
 
Congratulations

The Mac fan boys, blogs and now even the mainstream press have their sphincters so puckered over this, Microsoft has gotten more free publicity that they could ever have dreamed up.

Nice work guys.
 
i barely ever see that beach ball. and i would rather deal with a spinning beach ball every so often than a constantly freezing system and a yearly reformat. i also like that when something freezes on a mac, it only freezes that application, not the whole OS. macs even freeze more elegantly
You've never frozen the whole OS? I have. Nothing elegant about that. Right back to the lessons of windows: reboot.
 
I'm guessing you haven't tried a new Mac with iLife 09. GarageBand is Apple's latest revenue stream and includes a store where you can choose to buy extras. Sounds like sponsored bloatware to me.

Remove things yourself if you're not happy with them. Leaving them there isn't going to cause any problems.

It's not 2004, people don't need virus protection on Windows any more.

External webcam for $80? Where do you shop? Oh right, the APPLE STORE. I get it. That is if she even needs one. I've never used my iSight and I don't think I ever will. Partly because none of my friends have Macs and thus cannot communicate with me on iChat using video.

Downgrade to XP if you want, but if you leave Vista on it (this is 2009, we're on SP2 now) you'll be just fine. It might take you a little while to get used to where some things moved to, but it should be a better experience overall.

Ha! On the contrary...I have bought new Macs over the past year. And yes, some of the new iLife products are just as a ploy to get you to buy Apple sponsor featured. But guess what... these programs are not all that bad eh? I'm not a professing I'm a multimedia whiz, but guess what?, they make it easy. One other advantage: I can port my previous purchased iLife products over to the new one with minimum issue with compatibility.

The point I'm making, like so many other posters here had made, sure PC Laptops comes with more hardware initially, but that doesn't always translate as the best option when you are in the market of buying a laptop. Over the longevity of her purchase she will eventually sour at the ideal of settling for quantity over quality, or easy of use. The specs "Laren" set out to achieve could have easily been met if she decide to forgo $1000 "new" laptop and opted to go with a used high-end Mac LP. Hell, she a student in college, just starting out; you don't need all that BS anyway. You need to focus on getting up and running from the jump, and reduce the worries of operational mishaps, which usually accompanies Windows machines.
 
The hardware is not the same, period. We already went over this. Low bid for min requirements. Its the min requirements part. HP wants the part cheapest possible regardless of quality. Apple may buy from some of the same vendors but they have the components built to their specs. Not the vendors we can make it cheaper specs. Remember the most important parts are made and designed by Apple. Have you ever been to Russia? Seen the cars they drive? Less than a 1000 US you can buy a brand new car and a nice looking one.

This was a Gateway laptop. I know even the PC fanboi's like to rip on Gateway but I'm now running on 8+ years of good experiences with Gateway laptops. My experiences are anecdotal so take them for what they're worth.

On the other hand, I have no idea what you mean when you say Apple has vendors [build] "components [...] to their specs." I literally have the same hard drive in my iMac as I do in my PC desktop. The 2.66Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo in my 20" iMac is the same as the one in my PC I use at work (I use AMD primarily at home.) My wife's PC has the same ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro my 20" iMac does.

So this hardware customization you speak of? The EFI Bios? The keyboard, case and mouse? Is that it? I really can't think of anything else. Those four things are by no means the most important parts of a computer system.
 
Congratulations

The Mac fan boys, blogs and now even the mainstream press have their sphincters so puckered over this, Microsoft has gotten more free publicity that they could ever have dreamed up.

Nice work guys.
Mac fan RAGE = Publicity + $$$$$$ for Microsoft

John C. Dvorak does the same thing for page hits. :rolleyes:

i can honestly say i've never had that happened to me in four years of mac usage
never had that happen.
You've never had your Mac hard lock and been forced to reboot? I'm not talking a kernel panic either.
 
Commodity

This is interesting because it illustrates how consumers see computers: as commodities. I find that pretty incredible since there are HUGE differences between the two platforms - so much so that a comparison is not even relevant: apples to fish...

After having owned dozens of PCs running a multitude of operating systems, I bought a used G4 DA with Tiger to see what Macs are all about. I am so very impressed with the complete Apple package that I will buy a new one this year. I was done with Windows years ago except for gaming, where it rules, and needed something more polished than Linux on PC hardware. I'm sold.
 
i can honestly say i've never had that happened to me in four years of mac usage

You've never had your Mac hard lock and been forced to reboot? I'm not talking a kernel panic either.

lol i think anyone who says they havent ever is flat out exaggerating/lying as its a pretty common thing

maybe some just choose not to recognize it

i can tell you ive had all my machines lock up moreso than you think (in finder it will show as firefox not responding or whatnot) and all have had kernel panics as well t some point
 
How many times do you people need to be told? Virus protection might have been "obligatory" back in 1998 but if you actually used Windows for any great length of time you'd see that it's now rock solid and it's very, very difficult to get a virus.

I've been running Windows machines for years with no third party firewall, spyware or antivirus protection. I'm fine.

Same. I've had an install of Windows on my machine for over a year and have yet to have a single piece of Malware infiltrate my system, that is running with no third party protection.

So you guys are that good at detecting root kits? Wow, I'm impressed. With the exception of the irritating crap like Antivirus 360 or 2009, malware doesn't want to be found. If it's found, it can't transmit your key strokes and banking information.

Unless you're Steve Gibson, I kinda doubt you guys have the know how to realize when you've been infected.

I'm not trying to advocate OS X as being the be all, end all secure OS. Technically in some ways Vista and 7 are more secure. But running no AV or firewall on the OS with the biggest target on its back is positively foolish, especially when AVG and Avast are free, and Windows has a built-in firewall already.

lol i think anyone who says they havent ever is flat out lying as its a pretty common thing

maybe some just choose not to recognize it

So now people are liars? Why is it so hard to believe someone hasn't experienced any trouble? There's a lot of people who don't have any trouble on any of the 3 platforms.
 
Congratulations

The Mac fan boys, blogs and now even the mainstream press have their sphincters so puckered over this, Microsoft has gotten more free publicity that they could ever have dreamed up.

Nice work guys.
Actually no. This "price" or "user experience" issue is something that needs to be addressed and debated otherwise ignorance perseveres.
 
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