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Re: ATTENTION!!!!!

Originally posted by Mineral
L3 CACHE IS NOT AS SIGNIFICANT AS L2 CACHE.

AN L2 CACHE AT TWICE THE SPEED OF PREVIOUS PBOOKS WILL FAR OUTWEIGH HAVING A 1MB L3 CACHE TO BACK IT UP.

THANK YOU.

:rolleyes:

And on that note.. I just ordered:

15.2" PowerBook
1.25 GHz
80GB hd
1 GB DDR333 SDRAM
Combo Drive
Backlit Keyboard
Airport Extreme/Bluetooth
InCase Powerbook 15" Sleeve Case

woooooohoooooo!

It takes much longer time if you order the 1gb ram (4-6 weeks vs 6-8 days..)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where's the screenresolution..?

Originally posted by rjstanford
After all, while I agree that people who want a low-res screen shouldn't be forced into a high-res one, I'd like to think that you'll agree that people who want a high-res screen shouldn't be forced into a low-res one either, for much the same reasons.

Can't argue with that :)
 
Re: Re: ATTENTION!!!!!

Originally posted by dennis88
It takes much longer time if you order the 1gb ram (4-6 weeks vs 6-8 days..)

Not if you get it in two 512MB sticks.. mine said 3-5 days when I ordered.
 
Re: Delivery time is terrible!

Originally posted by finniii
In the time it took to read this thread the stock appears to have depleted BIG TIME. The shipping date for my 15" is estimated as 4-6 WEEKS! Quite a shock after reading the other posts here...
:confused: :mad:

You must be ordering one with one of the 1 GB RAM chips. I was confused by it too, but as soon as I changed it to 2x512, the shipping time went down to 3-5 days.
 
TV Work!

Originally posted by Photorun
Explain exactly the true advantage of a backlit keyboard aside from the "oooh ahhh" factor?
I work in front of my TV a lot at nights, and now need to have the lights on bright so I can see my keyboard, which affects the TV image. Now, with the backlit keyboard, I can dim the room lights, watch TV, and work! Whoohoo! :p
 
anyone with a 17" PB ... how hard is it to lug around? i don't really plan on "using it on my lap", and i'll keep it plugged in most of the time.

the increased screen size would be beneficial to my work, but i'm worried it might be too large vs. the 15" TiBook (that belongs to my boss that i need to give back ASAP) i've been using ...
 
Originally posted by rjstanford
It just seems to be that the light-up keyboard has real value for casual users (excuse the inference), but less for users who comfortably touch-type. Since you get "pro" users (defined by their power needs) who don't touch type (because they're artists/whatever), this is a good addition. It may be an even better addition to the iBook line though. At least Apple has long-since stopped putting the touch-type key-differentiators on the D and K keys. That was painfully annoying.

-Richard

Everyone's impression of the keyboard is "...well, it would good in this situation" kind of stuff. The problem is, though the idea of it is good, it doesn't quite work that way. For instance, you have to move your hands away from the keyboard to even see the lit up keys. The screen is usually still bright enough that it presents enough light to see the keyboard without the light.(which also ends up giving you a blindness thing from staring at a screen to focusing on mostly dark keys with glowing letter) The keys are laser-etched, which means the light coming through is beaming through a fairly fine font line... given the distance from the keyboard to your eyes, it's not a hellavalot of good (plus if the keys get dirty, you've muddied up the light. With the keyboard tilted at any angle, and sitting at an appropriate distance, you're treated to a light show from underneath the keyboard, where the keys aren't much use (because of the gap from the front of the keyboard to the palm rest)...

As I wrote before, it's a case of the have and have nots... once you get over the awe factor, it's all rather ho hum to annoying (luckily you can turn it off.) Good on paper, bad in production. oh well...(just didn't feel users without it should see it as a major deal-- and honestly it shouldn't be a "major selling point"; just kind of an aside)
 
Re: Ummm... a few differences

Originally posted by wordmunger
Okay, you ask for a fair comparison. Let's compare the weight of the Dell system versus the Apple: 6.9 pounds minimum versus 5.6. The Dell does not come with Gigabit Ethernet. And I'm sorry, but a 1.3 PM does not compare favorably with a 1.25 G4. A 1.0 G4 might be a fairer comparison. Then there's the lighted keyboard, the built in Airport/bluetooth antennae,...
First of all, many of your complaints are specious - for example, the Dell listed (and most current Dells) come with internal wireless cards and bluetooth.

As for power, check out this post where I did as good a comparison as I could between the G5 and the PM:
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35845&perpage=40&pagenumber=7#post468642
And I'm sorry, but a 1.3 PM does not compare favorably with a 1.25 G4. A 1.0 G4 might be a fairer comparison.
BTW, www.spec.org does have listings for a 1ghz Pentium-M (low voltage, slow memory, etc) with SpecINT of 687 and SpecFP of 552. I won't compare them directly to the numbers on apple.com, but for comparison, that's about 1/2 the typical spec numbers of a 3ghz Xeon (1250int/1180fp). And that's for the 1ghz. Scaling to 1.3ghz (ignoring memory speed issues) gives you 893int/718fp.

Even http://www.heise.de/ct/english/02/05/182/ , which is about the only G4 spec test you can find, puts the 1ghz chip at about a 1ghz PIII, which run about 460int/320fp according to spec.org, putting the Pentium-M chip at about 50% faster, clock-for-clock (as it should be, since its based on a highly modified PIII core).

On the previous post in this thread, I was trying to match the Apple as closely as possible. In the quoted one (above) you can check out the 600M which I, personally, bought from Dell for $1300 (like I said, only misguided people / businesses pay sticker for Dells) and am typing on right now, as I got tired of waiting for the new Powerbooks to come out.

Look, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Apples are great. OSX is great. That doesn't mean that they're better, in every way, to the competition. When it comes to laptop hardware, if you don't include the case and do include the price, they clearly still fall behind. Sad, but true.

-Richard
 
Not switching

I have waited for the new 15PBs for a long time. About two weeks ago I got sick of waiting and ordered a Dell 600M. Of course, right after that the rumors got me going again and I have been thinking of sending it back if the new PBs were incredible. They're not in my opinion, here are a few notes on the process:

1. The Dell screen is absolutely great. I can fit a big hunk of timeline or photo or a LOT of thumbnails on it (it runs at 1400 by 1050, about the sme as the 17PB). It's NOT hard to see the smaller text, it is absolutely crisp and sharp even to my less than perfect eyes. There is no way I'm going to order a more expensive (and the new PB15, never mind 17 IS!) machine with an inferior screen. I have put the dell screen beside the PB screen, unless the new PB screen is a huge leap (and it doesn't look like it) I simply can't see looking at such a ****e screen for more $. It amazes me that no one bitches about the screens on the 17 or old 15, they are junk compared to a good modern notebook screen.

2. The Dell build quality is very good. Solid, clean, it's a pleasure to look at (especially that screen, check one out if you won't believe me!).

3. The 1.6M is fast. Faster by light years compared to the 1ghz powerbooks (in MY real-world tests, not some obscure specifically double-secret compiled pile of nonsense), faster than many desktops. If you go to the Maya site and compare times using their test you'll see that Apple's G4 is lagging HARD. I'm doing more and more video editing and visual trickery in Photoshop, the feeling of not waiting is very nice. The amount of time it took to export my latest video effort vs. a much shorter and very basic project in Imovie (BTW, don't try slow-mo export in I-movie, it will mess it up for some reason) was crazy. I had time to go for lunch while Imovie did its thing, the whole 15-minute show on the dell took get a cup of coffee time. This is cool.

4. The 600M doesn't have a firewire port. This almost killed it for me, I have Firewire drives, cameras etc. However, I bought a card and it works well. $50cdn.

5. On the other hand, I don't want to cart around an extra DVI/VGA cable for doing slide shows (I do a lot of those with a projector), or risk forgetting that cable in "hostile terriritory" as I would with a PB. This is actually a big deal to me; it's bad enough doing show setup without suddenly having to find a DVI/VGA cable.

6. Port Replicator: Very nice, Dell had a deal and I got one of these basically free. It has DVI, (to be honest I don't notice a huge increase in quality using DVI vs. VGA on the external monitor, although I thought I would). I do like leaving all the various cables attached to the box on the desk and just taking my machine out with one click (FW aside).

7. Price. With a 3-year Dell warranty I got the whole mess for $3000cdn. A not as overall well equipped 15PB w/waranty would be about $4100cdn, but if you want to actually have an even remotely comparable machine you'd have to buy a 17 at $4700 (4299+500 for a meaningful warranty). I can cart a firewire card around for $1100-1700+, and buy a another fat external drive plus a new monitor plus a lot of beer. I don't know where the people who are posting the prices on the Dells get them, they must be carefully not using any of the freebies Dell normally throws in.

8. Premiere doesn't suck. I've learned how to use it well enough, it works. I would like Final Cut Pro, but the reality is that unless you're a full-on video guru Premiere works just fine. I won't pay the extra $ for one program on a notebook, mabe on a video-dedicated desktop.

9. 100G of hard drive space if you want it, just slap in an extra hard drive. 80 is now available on most of the Dells too, but 60 is enough for me on the road, I have big FW drives at home for that.

10. Battery life is good. Not stellar, but better than my original TiPB and way better than any PC laptop I've owned.

11. DVD burning and straight capture to burn to DVD is dead simple on the Dell. It's NOT, despite what the hype says, on the Mac.

12. I have the Dell in my hands. God only knows when the PB15 will actually ship. If the G5 (I thought about buying a desktop too, but here in Canada they don't actually exist yet!) is any indicator look for more delays and excuses from Apple then look for PB15s sometime in October or November.

13. Of course, I could wait for the G5 Powerbook. Please.

14. XP doesn't suck. I don't like it compared to OSX, but it works well and despite all the horror stories here it runs well and I have never had it lock up (programs sure, but not the actual OS). If you're an idiot about basic security you can get wormed or virused, but I have never had either despite large volumes of email and time on the web.


So, as a Switcher who switched to PCs from Apple, I say this latest effort from Apple is weak and won't be going back to Mac notebooks. Maybe when the G5 desktops gets reasonable in price and I need more juice, but not now. Thanks for the fun ride on this board, it has been hella interesting but it's over. Flame away.
 
Who says the Pentium-M laptops are faster than these G4 PowerBooks? Sure, Intel may have said that they outperform the Pentium 4 2.4Ghz processors, but this is only true for mobile computers. In mobile computers, previously, the hot x86 processors had often not been running at full power, so even though it would say it was a 2.4Ghz, for battery and heat reasons, it would often run at only a fraction of its speed.

The Pentium-M's solve this problem, as these new processors run very cool, and don't need to be ran in power-saving mode. That's what made them faster than Pentium 4s used in laptops.

The G4 already had this capability, and ran at full speed even in notebook computers. So saying that the Pentium-M's are faster than the G4 offerings is not necessarily true. It may be true, but I doubt, even if they are, that the difference is any more than about 15%. It would be good to see some benchmarks tho.

Also, remember than G4s are not as dog-slow as everyone thought them to be: they were only about 25% at most slower than the x86 offerings at the last PowerMac G4 revisions, which is not that much at all. Just look at the new G5 vs x86 benchmarks, and then look at the G5 vs G4 benchmarks, you should be able to figure it out.
 
Originally posted by rog
New chips, good. No L3, bad. Notice apple says almost nothing about performance on their PB pages. New video cards, good. 32MB VRAM on the 12", very bad. Why not 64 & 128? Why does the 12" pro model still come with only 256 MB RAM? No FW 800 on the 12" and no way to ever add it is bad. All in all pretty disappointing, just as I expected. At least the price drop and speed boost (although maybe not after losing the L3) on the 17" make it less of a bad deal. I don't think this will increase PB sales much. Without the L3, the 15" superdrive model has gained maybe 10% speed in 10 months. Totally unacceptable.

I just bought a 12" and had many of the same thoughts. The more I thought however, the fewer gripes I had. Hear me out.

You're not buying the 12" to be a desktop replacement, it's simply unrealistic. You're buying the 12" to be an ultraportable with some pop, which it certainly has. They doubled standard memory (although it should still come qith more standard). I wish it had a better graphics card but that is why I have my desktop. Gaming and graphic work on a 12" monitor is simply impractical, which is why you'd need a beefy graphics card in the first place (amongst other things).

If you want a desktop replacement, look no further than a 15". It's got a stellar graphics card for a portable and all the bell and whistles (except L3 cache). I'm not sure a 128MB graphics card in a portable is worth it. It just seems like it would absolutely drain a battery. Sure I'd like one in my 12", but in the real world, battery life is very important to me. <digression> If they could only find a way to scale it up and down like clocking down a processor, like when it is plugged in vs using battery, now that would be a cool mobile graphics card. </digression>

I just don't think with a mini comp like a 12" you can have a desktop. You can't have you cake and eat it too.
 
Originally posted by rjstanford
It just seems to be that the light-up keyboard has real value for casual users (excuse the inference), but less for users who comfortably touch-type. Since you get "pro" users (defined by their power needs) who don't touch type (because they're artists/whatever), this is a good addition.

Well I touch-type on the dvorak layout, but not on the qwerty layout that unfortunately comes standard on the AlBook I just ordered. On some machines I have actually exchanged the keycaps, but the backlighting may actually hinder that.

Anyway, I hope the backlighting will help me find the keys those times when I have to use the qwerty layout, or for finding the punctuation buttons that don't have standard locations (as a programmer I tend to use those a lot), or for finding the volume-control buttons and such.

At least Apple has long-since stopped putting the touch-type key-differentiators on the D and K keys. That was painfully annoying.

I can take or leave the nubs. I have a friend, though, who always had to either file off those nubs or swap pairs of keycaps (which really screwed me up when I had to use his machine, since I didn't and don't quite have the qwerty layout down) because his hands expected to find the nubs on the index fingers, not the middle fingers. All wintel keyboards with nubs seem to have them on the F and J keys, and that's what he learned on. I'm not sure how Apple and wintel came to disagree on this.
 
Originally posted by brooklyn
Two-week-old Mac User Here.

I finally saw the light and jump over to the Mac-side two weeks ago. I purchased a 12 PowerBook without knowing that newer models were being released soon. Is it possible (after 2 Weeks) to exchange my two-week old "outdated" model for the current one? I figure I ask here before calling Apple! Thanks.

No Dice!

I spoke to Apple; and returning the Powerbook-with-SuperDrive was my only option. A 10% restocking fee plus (from what I understand) paying out of my own pocket to return the PB would have cost me altogether almost $300. Not worth it! I’m happy with my two-week-old PB! I just wish I'd checked out these Mac forums earlier, I would’ve got better specs for the same $. Oh well! No hard feeling Apple.
 
Originally posted by rjstanford
A 25% speed improvement and a new case after 11 months of waiting? At least when it comes to computers, that's not really that big of a deal. It only seems like one because of the extended period of nothing before it.

-Richard

Uhhhhh....

-25% speed increase
-New Aluminum case

What about......?
-AirPort Extreme
-BlueTooth
-DDR RAM
-80 GB Hard Drive
-2x SuperDrive
-7457 Processor
-Much better graphics chip
-USB 2.0
-FireWire 800


Don't sell the updates short. There are few things that could have been better, but there are several others that are better than expected.
 
Originally posted by myrdred23
Who says the Pentium-M laptops are faster than these G4 PowerBooks? ... Saying that the Pentium-M's are faster than the G4 offerings is not necessarily true. It may be true, but I doubt, even if they are, that the difference is any more than about 15%. It would be good to see some benchmarks tho.
Well, www.spec.org does have listings for a 1ghz Pentium-M (low voltage, slow memory, etc) with SpecINT of 687 and SpecFP of 552. For comparison, that's about 1/2 the typical spec numbers of a 3ghz Xeon (1250int/1180fp). And that's for the 1ghz. Scaling to 1.3ghz (ignoring memory speed issues) gives you 893int/718fp.

Even http://www.heise.de/ct/english/02/05/182/ , which is about the only G4 spec test you can find, puts the 1ghz chip at about a 1ghz PIII, which run about 460int/320fp according to spec.org, putting the Pentium-M chip at about 50% faster, clock-for-clock (as it should be, since its based on a highly modified PIII core).

The Pentium-M is, at the moment, intel's most significant 32-bit processor. The 3ghz P4 is about as fast as a 1.7ghz P-M, for comparison. Oh - and the 1.7ghz P-M is shipping now and draws, IIRC, 24.5W typical.

-Richard
 
Someone from Apple just phoned me. My first thought was "Wow - they are calling to offer me a free upgrade for the 12" PowerBook I bought last month!" Well, no such luck. They wanted to tell me that my Power Mac G4 warranty was running out so I should buy AppleCare before it's too late. I said no thanks.
 
Originally posted by tuc

I can take or leave the nubs. I have a friend, though, who always had to either file off those nubs or swap pairs of keycaps (which really screwed me up when I had to use his machine, since I didn't and don't quite have the qwerty layout down) because his hands expected to find the nubs on the index fingers, not the middle fingers. All wintel keyboards with nubs seem to have them on the F and J keys, and that's what he learned on. I'm not sure how Apple and wintel came to disagree on this.

Actually the nubs are pre-Wintel, pre-Apple (not pre-IBM; they were around way before the other camps.) They were on typewriters (you know those things trapped in a closet somewhere.) Original position was F and J to be able to find the home row placement with the index finger (second most used finger on the hand, right??) Apple decided in its "let's do it our way" stance (where's my 2 trackbutton laptop, STEVE!!!??) that they'd move it to D/K. It may have been one of the most annoying decisions Apple's made for a touch-typist (with no official explaination)

After all, the keyboard shouldn't be messed with... studies show that Dvorak is a better layout than QWERTY (which was in essence put in place to solve the hammer/stroke issues on typewriters), but the US keyboard layout didn't flip to Dvorak the minute we moved away from the strike-type typerwriters because typist were used to it and there is no measurable gain by changing it.
 
Originally posted by Titian
Why don't we forget Paris and start discussing about next year? :D


its people like you who make so many of us crazy with antipation.:mad:

Now on to the subject:
I have a 15' pb 1Ghz and 1 Gig of Ram 60 gig hd and a superdrive. I dont understand whats so much better about the new ones then the old once. Sure the keyboard and hd, but a .25 difference in processor speed, you have to be kidding me! The only reason why i would get the new onces is becuase of the airport extream and firewire 800. Other than that, whats themajor difference between the 2 15' modles?

Some update :mad:
 
Originally posted by chazmox
So... does anyone know if increasing the L2 and dropping the L3 is an improvement???

Is this the 7457 or the 7447...

yes it is, so the 12' is going to recieve a nice bonus since it never had an L3.

But I don't know who in their right minds is going to buy a G4 powerbook now, you all know that G5 powerbooks are next right. Without a doubt. Moto has topped off. And with supposed 3GHZ Powermacs by next summer, you won't see 1.42 GHZ powerbooks. Bet the farm on that

Tyler
 
Re: Not switching

Originally posted by TIMEKILLER
I have waited for the new 15PBs for a long time. About two weeks ago I got sick of waiting and ordered a Dell 600M. Of course, right after that the rumors got me going again and I have been thinking of sending it back if the new PBs were incredible. They're not in my opinion, here are a few notes on the process:

7. Price. With a 3-year Dell warranty I got the whole mess for $3000cdn. A not as overall well equipped 15PB w/waranty would be about $4100cdn, but if you want to actually have an even remotely comparable machine you'd have to buy a 17 at $4700 (4299+500 for a meaningful warranty).

Many credit cards double the warranty to 2 years when you use them to purchase. Therefore, I got a two year warranty on my iBook for free.


12. I have the Dell in my hands. God only knows when the PB15 will actually ship. If the G5 (I thought about buying a desktop too, but here in Canada they don't actually exist yet!) is any indicator look for more delays and excuses from Apple then look for PB15s sometime in October or November.

I was just at a Calgary, Alberta Mac dealer on the weekend. They had many 1.6 and 1.8 G5's sitting in boxes on the floor.
 
Re: Re: Ummm... a few differences

Originally posted by rjstanford
Dell listed (and most current Dells) come with internal wireless cards and bluetooth.


Reread my post. I said it didn't come with an *antenna.* Apples have the best range in the business because of the internal antennae.

Regarding CPU speed, I'm probably more ignorant here than I should be, but I couldn't follow your argument about the PM versus the P4M. Also you seemed ot be comparing it to the G5, not the G4. Also, this is an honest question: does the PM not cycle down when running on batteries?

You say "if you don't include the case...." then PCs are a better value, but the size of the PB is what clinched it for me when I bought a Ti400 nearly three years ago. It's still running fine now, and I don't anticipate upgrading for another year or so. In fact, if there's any disappointment for me about the new 15 inch Albook, it's that it weights .6 lb more than my TiBook. You feel every ounce of these things when you carry them for any distance.

Finally, you ignored my points about other missing features on the Dell--the lighted keyboard, gigabit, small power supply--and of course there's one I missed: DVI out.

The point is, feature for feature, Apples are very price competitive with Dells, but then they also have a size/weight advantage. Why not then go for an equivalently priced, but better designed machine?
 
Re: Re: Not switching

Originally posted by razorme
Many credit cards double the warranty to 2 years when you use them to purchase. Therefore, I got a two year warranty on my iBook for free.
Still applies - cancel the extra warranty on the Dell and save quite a bit - US$400 or so on the comparison I did earlier today.

-Richard
 
Originally posted by ahol19
its people like you who make so many of us crazy with antipation.:mad:

Now on to the subject:
I have a 15' pb 1Ghz and 1 Gig of Ram 60 gig hd and a superdrive. I dont understand whats so much better about the new ones then the old once. Sure the keyboard and hd, but a .25 difference in processor speed, you have to be kidding me! The only reason why i would get the new onces is becuase of the airport extream and firewire 800. Other than that, whats themajor difference between the 2 15' modles?

Some update :mad:
Remember that it's not just 250mhz more, it's also a new cpu type, that is faster.
You have the new gorgeous ati 9600 mobility, 80gb 5400rpm drive, bluetooth, alu design, better speakers, usb 2.0, higher res, faster super drive, and more.
 
  • Posted by Richard:

    Still, we shouldn't have to publish bogus comparisons just to justify it, should we?
    -Richard

Actually Richard, this was not a bogus comparison. I priced 3 different Dells and got the specs "similar". And the price came out "similar". That's the only point.

We *could* get in to all the issues we've had with our Dell laptops (motherboards replaced NUMEROUS times, screens crapping out, keys on keyboards not working, etc, etc, etc.) and how we've never had an issue with the Apple laptops. As others have stated, the graphics aren't as good on the PC, the PC is heavier, the PC LCD is higher res (which may or may not be a good thing), the PCs have a faster system bus but XP doesnt use the GPU for rendering that OSX does and so on.

My intent was to illustrate that the price is comparable for a "comparable" PC laptop. So, 'we' didn't publish "bogus" comparisons. As for your comparison, I can't get an Inspiron 8600 with a single 512MB DIMM, an 80GB drive for anywhere near your price (unless you're getting a Refurb). The cheapest I can get an Inspiron 8600 (via the Home/Home Office link which is cheaper than the Small business link - interesting) is $2679. This includes XP Pro (not XP Home), XP Office (not Word Perfect Office) and other minor accessories (no floppy for example). Straight from the Dell site. So, please, let's not take this any further. You know, Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics. We can play the numbers game all day.

Bottom line: The new PBs ARE price competitive with PC laptops.

'nuff said.

Cheers B-)
 
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