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Re: Re: Re: Ummm... a few differences

Originally posted by wordmunger
Reread my post. I said it didn't come with an *antenna.* Apples have the best range in the business because of the internal antennae.
Funny, because I've seen tons of people complaining about Apple's wireless reception before ... oh, and yes, most every modern laptop on the planet these days comes with internal antennae.
Regarding CPU speed, I'm probably more ignorant here than I should be, but I couldn't follow your argument about the PM versus the P4M. Also you seemed ot be comparing it to the G5, not the G4. Also, this is an honest question: does the PM not cycle down when running on batteries?
Yes, it does. So does the G4. If, in both cases, you set them to. Next question...
Finally, you ignored my points about other missing features on the Dell--the lighted keyboard, gigabit, small power supply--and of course there's one I missed: DVI out.
I did. Did you read the rest of my response where I linked ( https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35845&perpage=40&pagenumber=7#post468642 ) to a previous comparison I did with the 600M which comes with most all of that (including standard gigabit, even though I've never used a gig switch outside of a computer room)? No, it doesn't have the lighted keyboard, you're right there - not a compelling reason for me, although it might be for others.

-Richard
 
Originally posted by volfreak I can't get an Inspiron 8600 with a single 512MB DIMM, an 80GB drive for anywhere near your
My quote was not with a single DIMM. If you click through the Dell (I used small business store) you should get the same prices that I did. Be sure to keep going past page one, to disable the standard warranty and drop it down to 1 year to match Apple (saving $408 in the process). If you like, I'll be willing to go through a keystroke-by-keystroke HOWTO, but it really shouldn't be necessary.

-Richard

edit: corrected typo
 
comparing PCs to these updated PB is utterly useless in this thread. can we stick to the topic and discuss things about the PBs themselves? we've had many many threads about comparing PCs to Macs and this update doesn't change things much... i, for one, didn't expect this round of update to suddenly make the PBs leap over PCs in terms of hardware specs anyway. so what's the point?

to those practically whining that this update is not good enough and they are going to go get a dell - please, go ahead. were you really serious about switching from the beginning? to me, the biggest draw of a mac is the OS. i couldn't care less about hardware specs, within reason.

i have (now older) PB 12". i think 12" got a really nice update. USB 2.0, faster chip, more ram on mobo and increased L2 cache are tremendous upgrade.
 
My quote was with two memory chips, as I stated, to match the basic "Powerbook 15" Superdrive" config as closely as I could, using the model that you selected (8600). If you click through the Dell (I used small business store) you should get the same prices that I did. Just for the record / grins:
  1. Go to http://www.dell.com/
  2. Click on "Small Business"
  3. Click on "Notebooks"
  4. Choose Inspiron
  5. NEW Inspiron 8600
  6. Pick the following: 1.3ghz processor, XP Pro, Office XP Small Business, WXGA display
  7. Click the "$200 Mail in Rebate" checkbox
  8. Hard Drive: choose " Special Offer! 80GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive [subtract $19] "
  9. CD ROM - choose "Special Offer! 4x CD/DVD burner (DVD+RW/+R) [add $180 or $5/month1]"
  10. Video Card - choose "64MB DDR NVIDIA® GeForce™4 4200 Go AGP 4X Graphics [add $79 or $3/month1]"
  11. Wireless Networking - choose "Dell TrueMobile™ 1300 WLAN (802.11b/g, 54Mbps) miniPCI Card [add $29 or $1/month1]"
  12. Press "Continue" (the big yellow button)
  13. Wireless Personal Networking - choose "Dell™ TrueMobile™ 300 Bluetooth Internal Card [add $49 or $2/month1]"
  14. Warranty - choose "1 Year Limited Warranty plus 1 Year Mail-In Service [subtract $408"
  15. Click on "Update Price"
  16. Read: "$2,344 - price shown is before $200 Rebate"
  17. Perform basic arithmatic to arrive at my quoted $2,144[/list=1]
    -Richard
 
Originally posted by brooklyn
No Dice!

I spoke to Apple; and returning the Powerbook-with-SuperDrive was my only option. A 10% restocking fee plus (from what I understand) paying out of my own pocket to return the PB would have cost me altogether almost $300. Not worth it! I’m happy with my two-week-old PB! I just wish I'd checked out these Mac forums earlier, I would’ve got better specs for the same $. Oh well! No hard feeling Apple.

Was your pbook more than 2 weeks old? I bought my pbook about 3 weeks ago and appear to have no option at all. I purchased my pbook before I knew about the update as a possibility. Though the model I have now will undoubtedly do everything I need it to do, it would have been nice to get the new one.
 
Originally posted by jxyama
comparing PCs to these updated PB is utterly useless in this thread. can we stick to the topic and discuss things about the PBs themselves?
Eh, sure. Can we also stop claiming that the new PBs stomp on laptop PCs when they don't?

Seriously, I agree that its of limited utility, but not of zero - that's like saying that if you want a new truck you should only compare the new model to the one its replacing, not to its competitors. Useful, but an incomplete story.

Again, I wasn't trying to troll, just responding to inaccurate claims about how superior the new powerbooks were in some respects.

-Richard
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ummm... a few differences

Originally posted by rjstanford
Funny, because I've seen tons of people complaining about Apple's wireless reception before
They were complaining about the powerbooks in comparison to the iBooks, not in comparison to Wintel machines. PowerBooks now exceed the range of iBooks. I'm beginning to doubt whether you've actually ever used one....
Yes, it does. So does the G4. If, in both cases, you set them to. Next question...
Next question (again, an honest one; I'd appreciate an honest answer): is there an appreciable impact on battery life? When I run my G4 at full speed, I only lose about 20 minutes

a previous comparison I did with the 600M which comes with most all of that (including standard gigabit, even though I've never used a gig switch outside of a computer room)?
Now you are changing comparisons. This is an entirely different computer, with its own set of shortcomings, including only a 14 inch monitor.
No, it doesn't have the lighted keyboard, you're right there - not a compelling reason for me, although it might be for others.
Then why did you include this option in your comparison? You realize this is an option, and you can get the computer for $69 less without it. I thought you wanted to make a "fair comparison," but it appears that you only want to make it "fair" when it favors your side of the argument. And you continue to ignore the fundamental size/design portion of my argument.
 
Power consumption

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is if the G4 is a 7447 or 7457, Motorola were claiming the power consumption on those chips are typically 8W for the 1.0Ghz, used in the 12" (max 11.5W) due to the 0.13m process used. That's a big saving power and heat wise on the previous G4 which ran at 22W.

See http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,2322_1901_23,00.html

I suspect it's a 7447 across the board in the new PowerBooks as that processor doesn't support L3 cache and Apple seem to have ditched the L3. The 7457 does. No L3 cache would also bring down the power requirements and the L2 cache which is double the size and running at core speeds is probably going to make up for the lack of L3 most of the time.

Motorola's roadmap for the G4 still claims they'll reach 3Ghz and will use dual cores whilst still keeping a design goal of 10W power consumption.

See this PDF - http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/SNDF2003_EUROPE_H1101.pdf

Whether they'll reach that in a reasonable time and whether Apple will trust them to do so is a different matter.
 
speed of the new powerbook vs P4

check this :

http://www.macobserver.com/shootouts/processor_notes.html

FWIW: I'm pleased to report that my "rough estimate" formula of G4/Pentium 4 overall performance has been proven to be pretty accurate by a fourth source:

http://www.barefeats.com/pentium4.html

In a nutshell, they pitted a PowerMac G4 DP 1.42 GHz vs. a Wintel Pentium 4 SP 3.06 GHz w/hyperthreading. They also threw in a PowerMac DP 1.25 and PowerMac DP 1.0 system as well.

I know BareFeats catches a lot of flak for their methodology, but in this case they seem to have their stuff together--The PowerMacs had 1.5 GB of DDR PC2700 RAM running OS X 10.2.4; the Pentium system had 2 GB of RDRAM PC1066 running WinXP Pro; all systems had 7200 rpm hard drives (80-120 GB), so I'd say they were fairly evenly matched up aside from the processors.

They ran a battery of tests, including Cinema 4D XL, Photoshop 7 (both multiprocessor-aware and single processor-only filters), and Bryce 5. I'm not a benchmarking expert but this seems a reasonable range of things to throw at the systems.

In any event, when you tally up the results:

3.06 GHz Pentium 4 w/HT system: total time 150 seconds
1.42 GHz DP PowerMac system: total time 162 seconds
1.25 GHz DP PowerMac system: total time 170 seconds
1.0 GHz DP PowerMac system: total time 225 seconds

Now, the System Shootouts "ballpark performance equivalence" formula has stood at:

1.0 GHz G4 appx. = 1.1 GHz Athlon appx. = 1.5 GHz Pentium 4, assuming 133 MHz FSB & SDRAM on the PowerMac.

For Dual Processor G4 systems, I've been figuring:

DP 1.0 GHz G4 appx. = SP 1.5 GHz Athlon appx. = 2.0 GHz Pentium 4, assuming the same as above.

So, I decided to see how far off the mark I am (at least with the DP systems).

Based on the above, a DP 1.42 G4 system w/a 166 FSB and DDR PC2700 should be roughly equal to a SP 2.84 GHz Pentium 4 system w/533 FSB and RDRAM PC1066, all else being equal.

150 seconds (3.06 P4) / 162 seconds (DP 1.42 G4) = about 8% faster overall. (3.06 / 2.84 equals...about 8% faster overall. So far, so good.)

The DP 1.25 G4 system should be about equal to a 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 system if I'm correct. (150 seconds / 170 seconds = about 12% faster. )

3.06 / 2.5 equals...about 22% faster. Whoops; the DP 1.25 is actually closer in real performance to about a 2.7 GHz Pentium 4 (3.06/2.7 = 13% faster). Still, not too far off.

Finally, the DP 1.0 GHz G4 should be about equal to a 2.0 GHz Pentium 4. (150 seconds / 225 seconds = about 33% faster.)

The DP 1.0 is closer to about a 2.3 Pentium 4 (3.06/2.3 = 33% faster).

My conclusion? The DP G4 systems are at *least* equal to a double-clockspeed *single* processor Pentium system, possibly more at lower speeds, but I'll leave it as is for now for the sake of simplicity. So, if you want to know ROUGHLY how your G4 stacks up:

For *single* processor G4s: Add 50% to your clockspeed to get the "Pentium 4 equivalence"

For *dual* processor G4s: Double the clockspeed of one of the processors to get the "Pentium 4 equivalence" (single processor P4, that is).

SO the new powerbook 1.33 ghz should be roughly equal to a 2.3 ghz P4...enough speed for everyone of you...

AGAIN it's the software that make the mac worth their price !!!
 
@ rjstanford

Look at the Dell Inspiron 8600:

IT LOOKS LIKE **** ! A cheap piece of crap with a complete plastic enclosure.
You can't compare this with a 15" Powerbook!
 
Originally posted by TyleRomeo
yes it is, so the 12' is going to recieve a nice bonus since it never had an L3.

But I don't know who in their right minds is going to buy a G4 powerbook now, you all know that G5 powerbooks are next right. Without a doubt. Moto has topped off. And with supposed 3GHZ Powermacs by next summer, you won't see 1.42 GHZ powerbooks. Bet the farm on that

Tyler

I don't know if I would bet the farm the Moto is topped out on speed. Remember the 7455 made it to 1.42Ghz in the towers and maybe I am wrong, but I thought one advantage of the new processor was going to a better fab. to increase Mhz and lower heat and power. We might never see a 2Ghz G4 in a Powerbook, but we might see one in the iMac/eMac before they go to a G5. I think the 7457 or 7447, whatever it is should be a big improvement for scaling to higher speeds.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ummm... a few differences

Originally posted by wordmunger
They were complaining about the powerbooks in comparison to the iBooks, not in comparison to Wintel machines. PowerBooks now exceed the range of iBooks. I'm beginning to doubt whether you've actually ever used one....
Not an iBook, just powerbooks. Never seen much of a difference between them an the Dell when it comes with 802.11b reception, to be honest.
Next question (again, an honest one; I'd appreciate an honest answer): is there an appreciable impact on battery life? When I run my G4 at full speed, I only lose about 20 minutes
I honestly don't know. Never bothered to do so, since its not a fulltime thing on the P4-M under XP ... whenever its used (compiling, running a benchmark suite, for example) it jumps right back to full speed.
Now you are changing comparisons. This is an entirely different computer, with its own set of shortcomings, including only a 14 inch monitor.
Agreed, but its the closed comparison that I know of at this time - and one that I'd already written.
Then why did you include this option in your comparison? You realize this is an option, and you can get the computer for $69 less without it. I thought you wanted to make a "fair comparison," but it appears that you only want to make it "fair" when it favors your side of the argument. And you continue to ignore the fundamental size/design portion of my argument.
How can you do this? I went to store.apple.com, clicked on the 15" Superdrive, and I don't see any way not to get the backlit keyboard. I was honestly trying to do fair comparisons, based on the parameters given. You can add it to the 1ghz model for $70, but since you can't upgrade that to the 1.25ghz one, its not really important, is it?

-Richard
 
congratulate me

I just got off the phone with Clay from the Apple Store, and later this month a new 12" pbook will be on my doorstep.

I was hoping the update would provide:
- a faster G4 processor
- DVI out
- 256 Mb RAM on the motherboard
- a funky backlit keyboard.

Hey, 3 out of 4 ain't bad. Moving from a 600MHz iBook to the 1 GHz G4 will be an eye-opener. Sure, a G5 would have been nice but there's nothing I do with my laptop that the G4 can't handle comfortably.

I've got two question:
a) I want to upgrade the RAM by adding a 512 Mb DIMM - what's a reasonable street price for such a thing?
b) the 12" ships with the Nvidia GeForce FX Go5200 - does this graphics card suck, and if so, how much?
 
I am can finally be free of the rumor sites. I ordered my 1.25ghz 15 incher with a 40g Ipod this morning (Let's hear it for the education discount and $200 rebate offer). Of course now I am consumed by tracking the shipping. It is supposed to ship today, with the Ipod shipping in 1-3 days.

Now, I just need to sell my trusty ol' Pismo to help pay for my new toys.

Maybe I will come back to the rumor site in a couple years, after I get tired with my new powerbook. Until then, keep on bickering guys.
 
Hmmm I wonder who are the 131 people that voted Negative? :rolleyes:


Seriously though. Does anyone know if the res of the 17" is the same or have they jacked that up along with the CPU and GPU?


PS- Thank god for the G4's. I really don't like the taste of crow.... ;)
 
Re: speed of the new powerbook vs P4

Originally posted by mspock
For *single* processor G4s: Add 50% to your clockspeed to get the "Pentium 4 equivalence"

For *dual* processor G4s: Double the clockspeed of one of the processors to get the "Pentium 4 equivalence" (single processor P4, that is).

SO the new powerbook 1.33 ghz should be roughly equal to a 2.3 ghz P4...enough speed for everyone of you...

AGAIN it's the software that make the mac worth their price !!!
And I thought that my logic was convoluted!

Ignoring the 50% hit you perscribe to dual processors (not what I've seen in decent multithreaded powerpc tests, but whatever)...

First you say, "For *single* processor G4s: Add 50% to your clockspeed to get the "Pentium 4 equivalence" - which would give you about a 2ghz P4...

Then you say, "the new powerbook 1.33 ghz should be roughly equal to a 2.3 ghz P4" - c'mon, at least put some other stuff between those two statements if you want us to buy your conclusion...

NOTE: Extrapolating from published tests from HP on spec.org, since they've only done the 1ghz version, the 1.3ghz P-M is at least comparable to that P4, and quite a bit better on SpecINT. Keep in mind that that's the slowest shipping P-M chip being compared to the fastest shipping mobile G4.

Finally, "It's the software..." - I happen to agree with you that OSX is worth a substantial amount of money. I don't always agree that its worth the premium that Apple works into their systems, often on the order of $1,000 (at street prices).

-Richard
 
Re: congratulate me

Originally posted by hexcalibur
a) I want to upgrade the RAM by adding a 512 Mb DIMM - what's a reasonable street price for such a thing?
Crucial charges about $87 for 512mb of PC2700 memory - sounds pretty reasonable to me (and a lot less than the $300 from apple.com).

-Richard
 
Originally posted by Fadl
@ rjstanford

Look at the Dell Inspiron 8600:

IT LOOKS LIKE **** ! A cheap piece of crap with a complete plastic enclosure.
You can't compare this with a 15" Powerbook!

Look at the Dell Latitude C400.

http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/model_latit_latit_x300.htm

Or The Widescreen Latitude D800

http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/model_latit_latit_d800.htm

Our company uses this model. (C400) Its a metal shell and sexy as heck. Actually all of the Latitude series systems have a metal shell. I agree with one thing. The Inspiron series blows. Gale force wind blowing.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ummm... a few differences

Originally posted by rjstanford
Not an iBook, just powerbooks. Never seen much of a difference between them an the Dell when it comes with 802.11b reception, to be honest.
But you're using the 600M, which has an internal antenna, not the 8600, which as far as I can tell, does not (at least based on the specs posted on their Web site). Remember we need to compare feature for feature, right?

I honestly don't know. Never bothered to do so, since its not a fulltime thing on the P4-M under XP ... whenever its used (compiling, running a benchmark suite, for example) it jumps right back to full speed.
This would be a good thing to know, since doing things like watching DVDs are actually quite CPU-intensive.

Agreed, but its the closed comparison that I know of at this time - and one that I'd already written.
Well, I'm sorry to put you to so much trouble, but I think we can agree you've conceded the point that the 8600 does not have gigabit ethernet.
How can you do this? I went to store.apple.com, clicked on the 15" Superdrive, and I don't see any way not to get the backlit keyboard. I was honestly trying to do fair comparisons, based on the parameters given. You can add it to the 1ghz model for $70, but since you can't upgrade that to the 1.25ghz one, its not really important, is it?
Okay, you're right about that. But it is important when trying to do a "fair comparison," because it's a feature that the Dell doesn't have. As I've said, you could get the 1ghz model with a SuperDrive for $400 less, and the only thing you'd lose compared to the Dell is bragging rights for "more gigahertz." You still haven't convinced me that a 1.3 PM is faster than a 1.0 G4, so this strikes me as a "fair comparison," with almost identical prices, but with better size and design for the Apple. And we haven't even talked about software.
 
Originally posted by jxyama
comparing PCs to these updated PB is utterly useless in this thread. can we stick to the topic and discuss things about the PBs themselves?

Many of the people reading this site are obviously thinking about switching or upgrading. While I like Macs and have spent $15,000+ on them over the years a dose of reality is needed to counteract the often downright silly claims of a few Mac cultists (most high-end Mac users I know are reasonable about the pros and cons of the systems, but this board attracts are more than usual share of the brainwashed). I expect more than few people found my post helpful, more so than another argument about whether or not the G5 can work in a PB or not (I enjoy these, but a new PB announement we've waited months for should be put into perspective of where the machines are compared to any competition). I also have to laugh about wanting to limit the discussion to the new things about the PBs themselves, as the discussion is pretty darn short--not a whole lot changed. A few people are jumping up and down with joy, but most are like, "Ah, we waited this long for this?"

Switch if you love OSX. Don't switch because the portable hardware is better or cheaper in Mac Land. Don't switch because OSX is perceived to be worlds better by the Mac crew, it's not. Do switch if you want to run Final Cut. Enough said.
 
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Look at the Dell Latitude C400.
Our company uses this model. (C400) Its a metal shell and sexy as heck. Actually all of the Latitude series systems have a metal shell. I agree with one thing. The Inspiron series blows. Gale force wind blowing.
And before somebody else cries foul that this "sexy" model wasn't the one compared, the D800 with MS Office spec'd like the 15" PB Superdrive (60gb HD is Dell's max for this model) stickers at $2,374 with the 3 year warranty, compared to $2,873 for the PB with AppleCare and 60gb.

-Richard
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ummm... a few differences

Originally posted by wordmunger
But you're using the 600M, which has an internal antenna, not the 8600, which as far as I can tell, does not (at least based on the specs posted on their Web site). Remember we need to compare feature for feature, right?
I don't know of many laptops with internal wireless cards without internal antennae. In fact, I don't think that I've ever encountered one. You may be right, the Dell may be the first, but isn't that stretching the bounds of probability?
You still haven't convinced me that a 1.3 PM is faster than a 1.0 G4, so this strikes me as a "fair comparison," with almost identical prices, but with better size and design for the Apple. And we haven't even talked about software.
What would it take? Since Apple won't submit benchmarks to Spec, and every other single quoted benchmark site seems to peg the G4/G5/P-M at around the same power, clock-for-clock... Heck, you're right - if you don't have to follow logic or tests, the street price of the slower Apple model is almost as cheap as the sticker price of the other guys.

-Richard
 
personally i dont think this is any big event the updates arent all that great...i just bought my 15" before the updates and im perfectly happy with it...i dont need an aesthetical update just to be happy. Im just not buyin it...even tho its nice to know they finally got it done
 
I don't know what people are comparing here in the way of price performance. It doesn't really matter. When you are looking at laptops the cost is directly related to the size and screen size. So Is there a laptop that has very similar overall dimensions as any of Apples has the same screen size and has all the features for the same price? Not that I know of. There are some smaller but they lack optical drives or other features you get with Apple. There some with similar features and screen size but they are a lot bigger and heavier. The smaller the laptop for the feature set the more you will pay. Apples are a steal for what you get in such a small package.

If the current market has changed and there are competitive laptops out there now please point them out to me I would like to know about them.
 
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