New PowerBooks - Finally

[tuc]

Originally posted by Photorun
Explain exactly the true advantage of a backlit keyboard aside from the "oooh ahhh" factor?

Several times a week I have to get up and move from where I had been working(and where I would prefer to continue working) because I couldn't see the keyboard well enough.

If this never happens to you, don't pay extra for the backlit keyboard.

 

[ryaxnb]

1.33 Ghz

Anyone notice that the 17" model is at 1.33 Ghz? Even better then we expected!

 

[jettredmont]

Re: Broken link on Apple's new PB page

Originally posted by true777
So... do the 12' models also have the new xx57 processor??

I'm wondering, since the 12" 1 Ghz uses PC 2100/266 DDR memory w/ 133 bus speed, and the 1 Ghz 15" has PC 2700/333 DDR w/ 167 bus. Seems to point to different architecture, no?

I wanted to look up processor specs at apple.com, but the links from the powerbook model pages to the processor spec pages for the various models are broken. Weird, they're usually so careful about broken links. What could that mean?

The 12" appears to have the 7547 processor (smaller-footprint kin to the 7557). The lower FSB is due to the lower voltage setting which appears to be used; 1.0V for 1.0GHz instead of 1.3V for 1.3GHz.

 

[gloftis]

Re: 1.33 Ghz

Originally posted by ryaxnb
Anyone notice that the 17" model is at 1.33 Ghz? Even better then we expected!

Welcome to the fray. I suggest you tie yourself to something heavy!

 

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by volfreak
This may bring more heated discussion, but I was impressed by the cost-competitiveness of the new PBs.

As for the comparison:
Dell Latitude D800 Specs:

• Pentium M 1.4Ghz with 15.4 WXGA Display
• Windows XP Pro
• TrueMobile 1400 Dual Band miniPCI Card (no internal wireless capability)
• 512MB DDR SDRAM - 1 DIMM
• 2X DVD+RW Drive
• 2nd 40GB/5400RPM drive
• Microsoft Office XP Pro
• 10/100 Ethernet (no gigabit)
• NVIDIA GeForcce4 4200 with 32MB (64MB is $79 more)
• No Firewire

Price as configured: $3,278

Look, the new Apple is nice, but let's do a reasonable comparison if you're going to do one at all. Few people, IMO, would get/option a D800 that way. May I?

Dell Inspiron 8600 - as close to the 15" SD as I can make it:

• Pentium M 1.3ghz
• 15.4" widescreen 1280 res display
• 512MB RAM
• 80GB hard drive
• CD/DVD burner
• 64mb NVIDIA graphics card
• 802.11b/g internal networking
• Internal bluetooth
• Office XP
• Firewire
• One year warranty (Dells normally get 3)
• Infrared port

That gives you a price of $2,144 against Apple's $2,599. You don't get the iApps, but you do get Office (for comparison's sake). Its also ignoring the fact that you should never pay MSRP for a Dell - heck, you get 10% off just from being on their mailing list, and other discounts abound as well (for everyone, not just edu) which would bring it down to $1929. Not that even that's the kind of Dell I'd recommend, if you wanted one, but I'm trying to be as even as possible from a feature standpoint.

Personally, I'm disappointed in the screen res, mouse button, and power of the new notebook, but have to admit that its a lot more desirable than it was yesterday. Still, we shouldn't have to publish bogus comparisons just to justify it, should we?

-Richard

 

[harvey]

Apple upgraded my 9-1 order!

I had a 867 Mhz/256 MB/40 GB/Combo Drive TiBook ordered on 9-1 (company ordered, price/configuration was set by their budget).

I didn't push Apple for a shipping date because I knew about the pending update, and wanted a current model.

They're shipping me a 1GHz/256 MB/60 GB/Combo AlBook for the same price. The only downside is that I can't upgrade to a backlit keyboard without cancelling the order, and submitting a new purchase order. It ships in 3-5 days!

I'm sticking with this one, this is my first real (Apple) laptop!

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by Photorun
Explain exactly the true advantage of a backlit keyboard aside from the "oooh ahhh" factor?

When I used to travel a lot, I always had to turn on the oeverhead light to use my laptop on night flights, usually disturbing the guy/gal sleeping in the next seat - even in 1st class. Not to mention anoying glare of a spotlight on you while you stare at your screen.

A light-up keyboard would be worth the extra $$$ for travelers.

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by true777
The new 15" is 1.1" thick, up from 1".
The 12" is 1.18".

I'm still not sure if the 12" has the new 7457, too, as the architecture seems to be different from the 15" 1 Ghz?

All models have either the 7547 or the 7557. The L2 cache belies this.

I would be fairly surprised to see the 12" using the 7557 instead of the 7547; the packaging is significantly smaller on the 7547 and the 12" shows no sign of ever using L3 cache.

The 15" and 17" models might be using the 7557, though, allowing for reasonably easy L3 cache support in a minor speed bump. I doubt it though. Cost/heat/space savings would make Apple design around the 7547 instead and redesign if they ever want to add L3 (possibly for one last bump prior to moving to dual-G4 or single-G5s).

 

[gloftis]

Originally posted by rjstanford
Look, the new Apple is nice, but let's do a reasonable comparison if you're going to do one at all. Few people, IMO, would get/option a D800 that way. May I?

Dell Inspiron 8600 - as close to the 15" SD as I can make it:

• Pentium M 1.3ghz
• 15.4" widescreen 1280 res display
• 512MB RAM
• 80GB hard drive
• CD/DVD burner
• 64mb NVIDIA graphics card
• 802.11b/g internal networking
• Internal bluetooth
• Office XP
• Firewire
• One year warranty (Dells normally get 3)
• Infrared port

That gives you a price of $2,144 against Apple's $2,599. You don't get the iApps, but you do get Office (for comparison's sake). Its also ignoring the fact that you should never pay MSRP for a Dell - heck, you get 10% off just from being on their mailing list, and other discounts abound as well (for everyone, not just edu) which would bring it down to $1929. Not that even that's the kind of Dell I'd recommend, if you wanted one, but I'm trying to be as even as possible from a feature standpoint.

Personally, I'm disappointed in the screen res, mouse button, and power of the new notebook, but have to admit that its a lot more desirable than it was yesterday. Still, we shouldn't have to publish bogus comparisons just to justify it, should we?

-Richard

Really good points. Dell has, by far, the best notebook LCD (incredibly clear 15.4" at 1600X1200) I have seen and I like the track button. Even at their MSRP, Dells offer possibly the best value in the Wintel world

A PB 17" LCD with 1920X1200 and the track button mouse option would move the next PBs up in perceived value.

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by beefstu01
Here I am, at school, and I fished out one of the tech documents.

Once again, the 7457 is not the processor that is used in these models (granted that the Apple US site is right and there is no L3 cache). Take a look for yourselves, right from Motorola ->

http://e-www.motorola.com/files/32bit/doc/prod_brief/MPC7450TS.pdf

Page 5. This document is the technical specifications for the 7450 processor family. Essentially it says that the 7457 and the 7447 are exactly the same with the exception of the L3 cache. Once again, the 7457 has the L3 cache, the 7447 does not. They both have the same max clock speed, same L2 cache and have the same power consumption. An interesting read.

Correction: the 7457 has support for L3 cache, while the 7547 does not.

You can use a 7457 without L3 cache. It would be stupid in many ways (unless you were planning on shortly upgrading to using L3 without wanting to do a MB re-route), but certainly possible.

IMHO, I agree: these are likely to be 7447 chips, not 7457.

BTW, completely off topic, but did Moto miss the marketing opportunities of a 1337 chip? Imagine how many Intel 1337 hax0rs we could have had switching with such a chip!

 

[Mr. G4]

According to the Register they are:

The presence of 512KB of L2 cache on all models shows that they are indeed powered by Motorola's new 130nm PowerPC 7457 chip, as anticipated. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/32853.html

Originally posted by jettredmont
All models have either the 7547 or the 7557. The L2 cache belies this.

I would be fairly surprised to see the 12" using the 7557 instead of the 7547; the packaging is significantly smaller on the 7547 and the 12" shows no sign of ever using L3 cache.

The 15" and 17" models might be using the 7557, though, allowing for reasonably easy L3 cache support in a minor speed bump. I doubt it though. Cost/heat/space savings would make Apple design around the 7547 instead and redesign if they ever want to add L3 (possibly for one last bump prior to moving to dual-G4 or single-G5s).

 

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
When I used to travel a lot, I always had to turn on the oeverhead light to use my laptop on night flights, usually disturbing the guy/gal sleeping in the next seat - even in 1st class. Not to mention anoying glare of a spotlight on you while you stare at your screen.

It just seems to be that the light-up keyboard has real value for casual users (excuse the inference), but less for users who comfortably touch-type. Since you get "pro" users (defined by their power needs) who don't touch type (because they're artists/whatever), this is a good addition. It may be an even better addition to the iBook line though. At least Apple has long-since stopped putting the touch-type key-differentiators on the D and K keys. That was painfully annoying.

-Richard

 

[the Helix]

Nice, but still waiting...

The new 15" Al PBs are definitely nice with all its new features. However, I was sorry to find that it is thicker and heavier than the old trusty Ti Book. It also went back to a L2 cache and a weaker battery.

I think that I can wait till next year when the next generation 15" PB comes out with a G5 chip and Panther included. And maybe it will be as thin and light as its predecessor.

Cheers!

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by gloftis
Really good points. Dell has, by far, the best notebook LCD (incredibly clear 15.4" at 1600X1200) I have seen and I like the track button. Even at their MSRP, Dells offer possibly the best value in the Wintel world

A PB 17" LCD with 1920X1200 and the track button mouse option would move the next PBs up in perceived value.

At my company everyone has a Dell Latititue laptop of varying spec's depending on how old it is. They range for 4 to 1 years old. There's probably between 200-300 of them in service and they are a huge nightmare for maintenance. If our IS Desktop support gurus are to be belived, it's because they are not built to be desktop replacements - they have a estimated usefull lifetime of about a year, maybe two.

Mine has had it's keyboard replaced 4 times and the motherboard twice.

The case (plastic) flexes like crazy and every once in a while a screw falls out of the bottom.

Take this anecdotal story as you will, but I'd never buy a Dell laptop for my own use.

From what I hear, Toshibas and IBM's seem to be the best Wintel's when it comes to the rigors of portable use.

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by panphage
For those who were asking, or anyone else wondering, the 74(45)7 Moto chip DOES NOT have DDR support.

Clarification:

It does not have a DDR FSB, nor does it have an on-board memory controller (DDR or otherwise).

DDR memory relies on the memory controller, which in most CPUs today (with a few notable exceptions) is in the chip set or system controller, not the CPU.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by rjstanford
It just seems to be that the light-up keyboard has real value for casual users (excuse the inference), but less for users who comfortably touch-type. Since you get "pro" users (defined by their power needs) who don't touch type (because they're artists/whatever), this is a good addition. It may be an even better addition to the iBook line though. At least Apple has long-since stopped putting the touch-type key-differentiators on the D and K keys. That was painfully annoying.

-Richard

Yep - it's amazing how I've been typing on computers since the Timex Sinclair 1000 and Commodore 64 days but I still like to be able to glance down at the keys. (and I still put out a million typos a day!)

And those D/K key "nubs" were really wierd. I'd love to hear their human interface gurus tell us where that came from! (Unless WinTel machines added them afterwards and put them on the index finger keys to avoid patent infringement or something) But, I really miss using my Apple Extended Keyboard II - I've even considered a ADB->USB adapter so I can go back to it!

 

[daveL]

Originally posted by Stelliform
Nope, the TiBooks automatically eject a DVD-RW. And if you notice on the specs Apple says that it only burns a DVD-R. Roxio wouldn't even help since the drive ejects the disk as soon as it spins up.

I would love to be proven wrong on this one. But I haven't been able to keep the disk in the drive.

There's an unsupported firmware upgrade available for the PB superdrives that will give you DVD-RW. You can find it in the MR archives. It works. It also gives you 2xDVD-R.

 

[dennis88]

The 64mb graphic card in the dell 8600 is much slower than the ati 9600.
It weights 3,4kg vs 2,5kg on the 15"pb.
It's much larger, and it feels cheap.
The keyboard is not good at all.
It can't even be compared to the 15" pb in design.

If the dell 8600 is 2100dollar with the specs you mention, and the 15"pb is 2599dollar, then I would go with the 15"pb hands down.
My friend got his dell 8600 a few days ago, and he bought it with the specs you wrote, but he got the fx5650go 128mb card instead.
And he have allready gotten 2 bluescreens
He told me it was OK, but he would never buy at dell anymore, I don't know what he meant by that.
I feel sorry for him tho.

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Mr. G4
According to the Register they are:

The presence of 512KB of L2 cache on all models shows that they are indeed powered by Motorola's new 130nm PowerPC 7457 chip, as anticipated. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/32853.html

Note that "7447" and "7457" are distinct processor numbers, but both are essentially the same chip (and certainly in the same family).

The 7447 has 512 L2 cache as well. This distinguishes the 74x7 from the 74x5.

The 7447/7457 distinguishing factor is L3 cache support. None of the new models has L3 cache; would Apple pay Moto extra for L3 support when they aren't using it? Potentially, but until proven otherwise, the pedantic and nit-picky amongst us will continue to assert that the chip is most likely the 7447.

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by rjstanford
It just seems to be that the light-up keyboard has real value for casual users (excuse the inference), but less for users who comfortably touch-type. Since you get "pro" users (defined by their power needs) who don't touch type (because they're artists/whatever), this is a good addition. It may be an even better addition to the iBook line though. At least Apple has long-since stopped putting the touch-type key-differentiators on the D and K keys. That was painfully annoying.

-Richard

As a 90% touch-typist (I prefer a quick glance at the keyboard to seat my fingers over finding the "nubs" on F and J) I would love to have the backlit keyboard. I find being able to see the keys not necessarily functionally required, but certainly reassuring.

 

[Wonder Boy]

i said this with the "old" powerbooks, too- I think the silver keys look cheap.

I have no offering for a better color or anything like that. i just dont think the keyboard looks good. Its like the NY football giants new helmets. sure they are nice but they dont match the jersey. sure the keys are an aluminum "shade" but they dont match the casing as well as it should.

 

[MattG]

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
i said this with the "old" powerbooks, too- I think the silver keys look cheap.

I have no offering for a better color or anything like that. i just dont think the keyboard looks good. Its like the NY football giants new helmets. sure they are nice but they dont match the jersey. sure the keys are an aluminum "shade" but they dont match the casing as well as it should.

Yeah I agree. While the silver keys have a better feel, the black keys look nicer.

 

[wordmunger]

Ummm... a few differences

Originally posted by rjstanford

[/list]That gives you a price of $2,144 against Apple's $2,599. You don't get the iApps, but you do get Office (for comparison's sake). Its also ignoring the fact that you should never pay MSRP for a Dell - heck, you get 10% off just from being on their mailing list, and other discounts abound as well (for everyone, not just edu) which would bring it down to $1929. Not that even that's the kind of Dell I'd recommend, if you wanted one, but I'm trying to be as even as possible from a feature standpoint.

-Richard

Okay, you ask for a fair comparison. Let's compare the weight of the Dell system versus the Apple: 6.9 pounds minimum versus 5.6. The Dell does not come with Gigabit Ethernet. And I'm sorry, but a 1.3 PM does not compare favorably with a 1.25 G4. A 1.0 G4 might be a fairer comparison. Then there's the lighted keyboard, the built in Airport/bluetooth antennae, the slimmer design, the better, much more compact power supply of the Apple. And we're only talking about hardware here. A better comparison model for the Dell you've configured *might* be the base model 15-incher with an optional superdrive added, for $2199, but even then the Apple has many features you can't get on a Dell (weight and size being the most important ones). Apple laptops remain one of the best deals in computing.

You probably have a better case with desktops, but even then, now that the G5s are out, you can make a good case for the *value* of Apples at the high end.

 

[legion]

Originally posted by Frobozz
Yes, indeed. My only concern with a 7200 RPM drive is that, like almost any PC laptop, the battery life would be about an hour and a half. I think with a 5400 you might have a happy medium of performance to battery life. PC users are used to having crappy laptops.

I would like to see some numbers on the drive performance, since the lower RPM drive may be just about as fast but add an hour to the battery life....

Your wish has been granted:

from barefeats:
http://www.barefeats.com/fire39.html

As for power drain, I don't have any sites of that comparison, but from personal experience I've only lost about 10min on the average (if not less; so much so that it's negligible) The power consumption numbers are favourably small between a 5400 and 7200 swap.

 

[Mineral]

ATTENTION!!!!!

L3 CACHE IS NOT AS SIGNIFICANT AS L2 CACHE.

AN L2 CACHE AT TWICE THE SPEED OF PREVIOUS PBOOKS WILL FAR OUTWEIGH HAVING A 1MB L3 CACHE TO BACK IT UP.

THANK YOU.



And on that note.. I just ordered:

15.2" PowerBook
1.25 GHz
80GB hd
1 GB DDR333 SDRAM
Combo Drive
Backlit Keyboard
Airport Extreme/Bluetooth
InCase Powerbook 15" Sleeve Case

woooooohoooooo!